Dire need of advice,please help.

[Zolpidem18]

Hello folks,
I need to take,what could possibly be a life altering decision.I hope i can garner some valuable responses. I'm a graduate of medicine from India(2018)hoping to get into psychiatry medical residency in the U.S. which has been a dream since as long as i can remember.I have a major dilemma and wanna be candid about my situation so i can get some honest advice.Here goes:

So,i sat in for the entrance test in India meant to select students to pursue medical residency and un-expectedly secured a rank good enough to get me a spot into medical residency in Psychiatry in one of India's most reputed institutes.If i take this spot i'll be submitting my documents of graduation etc. which as per rule i will not get back untill the end of the duration of the course which is 3 years.I'm afraid 3 years later the time span between my date of graduating med school and applying for residency would affect my chances of getting into residency.I will though,by 2021 be an M.D. in Psychiatry In india.

-Will an M.D. in psychiatry from india help in my application?I understand the culture in this country is very different from the U.S.,the manner of communication and the methods to deal with and assess a patient would be different,but i would think once the diagnosis is reached the course of medication would be the same.As far as the counselling part is concerned,i feel i've had enough exposure to the culture in the U.S.,am quite "americanised"(if that makes sense,you get the idea)and have a lot of american acquaintances with whom i bond often(which i guess i would need to prove during my electives)

-My med school track record is herrendous:22 failures in total,yes 22,not a typo.I'd blame circumstances,but even though they're the culprit,i don't wanna make excuses.Will good scores(i'm talking 240 above in both steps) cover up that red flag?

Though not relevant i wanna mention i'm a citizen of singapore(long story why India).If i give up on this spot in Psych residency in India,i'm afraid i won't be able to secure it again and given my track record,if i'm rejected on that basis,i'll have wasted time and also lost my spot in India.
I hope i was clear in my message and my question,which basically is:A)should i take the spot in India or chuck it and study for the usmles.B)Will an Indian M.D. give me a edge 3 years later to get into Psych residency in the U.S.I'd greatly appreciate it if somebody gives me valuable advice.I'd like it straight between the eyes than sugar coated,please try to refrain from mockery and sarcasm.Thank you in advance .

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[clausewitz2]

Hello folks,
I need to take,what could possibly be a life altering decision.I hope i can garner some valuable responses. I'm a graduate of medicine from India(2018)hoping to get into psychiatry medical residency in the U.S. which has been a dream since as long as i can remember.I have a major dilemma and wanna be candid about my situation so i can get some honest advice.Here goes:

So,i sat in for the entrance test in India meant to select students to pursue medical residency and un-expectedly secured a rank good enough to get me a spot into medical residency in Psychiatry in one of India's most reputed institutes.If i take this spot i'll be submitting my documents of graduation etc. which as per rule i will not get back untill the end of the duration of the course which is 3 years.I'm afraid 3 years later the time span between my date of graduating med school and applying for residency would affect my chances of getting into residency.I will though,by 2021 be an M.D. in Psychiatry In india.

-Will an M.D. in psychiatry from india help in my application?I understand the culture in this country is very different from the U.S.,the manner of communication and the methods to deal with and assess a patient would be different,but i would think once the diagnosis is reached the course of medication would be the same.As far as the counselling part is concerned,i feel i've had enough exposure to the culture in the U.S.,am quite "americanised"(if that makes sense,you get the idea)and have a lot of american acquaintances with whom i bond often(which i guess i would need to prove during my electives)

-My med school track record is herrendous:22 failures in total,yes 22,not a typo.I'd blame circumstances,but even though they're the culprit,i don't wanna make excuses.Will good scores(i'm talking 240 above in both steps) cover up that red flag?

Though not relevant i wanna mention i'm a citizen of singapore(long story why India).If i give up on this spot in Psych residency in India,i'm afraid i won't be able to secure it again and given my track record,if i'm rejected on that basis,i'll have wasted time and also lost my spot in India.
I hope i was clear in my message and my question,which basically is:A)should i take the spot in India or chuck it and study for the usmles.B)Will an Indian M.D. give me a edge 3 years later to get into Psych residency in the U.S.I'd greatly appreciate it if somebody gives me valuable advice.I'd like it straight between the eyes than sugar coated,please try to refrain from mockery and sarcasm.Thank you in advance .

Is your degree awarding institution in India one of the ones that the Ministry of Health in S'pore recognizes as an equivalent degree? Would you be able to practice (maybe with supervision) back home or not?

 

[splik]

1. in the current political climate, I do not recommend that people without a green card or US citizenship apply for medical residency in the US. too many unknowns
2. an MD in psychiatry from india in itself is not helpful. however it does show that you were actually interested in psychiatry and so would be more favorably looked upon that someone who had no evidence of commitment to a career in psychiatry. nevertheless, more than 5 yrs out from med school at the time of matching is considered a red flag.
3. I am not sure anyone would notice any medical school failures as the dean's letter is usually irrelevant for IMGs. So as long as it is not glaring on the application I dont think anyone would know. high usmle scores are necessary and more important than your medical school performance but not sufficient. you would ideally do US electives in psychiatry as a medical student. If you are no longer a student it is too late and will be very difficult to get the requisite level of clinical exposure unless you are well connected.

 

[lyla]

What about practicing in India if you're planning on going there anyway for residency?

 

[SeniorWrangler]

Immigration issues make coming to the US trickier than it used to be, and I don't know what psychiatry is like for FMG's these days.
If you get an MD degree in India, you're a doctor but you'll still have to go back to training if you come to the USA. I think I see more people coming to the USA to do research and develop connections, but I'm not sure that's a good option for you given your med school experience.

 

[Zolpidem18]

Is your degree awarding institution in India one of the ones that the Ministry of Health in S'pore recognizes as an equivalent degree? Would you be able to practice (maybe with supervision) back home or not?

Singapore recognizes the primary medical qualification(m.b.b.s) from precisely 8 medical colleges in India.I am not from amongst them,however the spot in Psychiatry i've gotten is into one amongst those colleges.It's a post graduate spot,will not count.

 

[Zolpidem18]

1. in the current political climate, I do not recommend that people without a green card or US citizenship apply for medical residency in the US. too many unknowns
2. an MD in psychiatry from india in itself is not helpful. however it does show that you were actually interested in psychiatry and so would be more favorably looked upon that someone who had no evidence of commitment to a career in psychiatry. nevertheless, more than 5 yrs out from med school at the time of matching is considered a red flag.
3. I am not sure anyone would notice any medical school failures as the dean's letter is usually irrelevant for IMGs. So as long as it is not glaring on the application I dont think anyone would know. high usmle scores are necessary and more important than your medical school performance but not sufficient. you would ideally do US electives in psychiatry as a medical student. If you are no longer a student it is too late and will be very difficult to get the requisite level of clinical exposure unless you are well connected.

Thank you plenty sir.Your response instills significant perspective.I'm well aware off the difference between a clerkship and an observership.I am no longer a student,i've graduated,hence cannot get into a clerkship program(or can i??),however i have strong connections in well reputed medical institutions in the U.S.Will it make a difference if my application says 'observership' rather than 'clerkship'?I'd think what would matter more is the word put in by a reputed faculty member in that respective institute?Can one get into a clerkship program during M.D. residency(in India)?.

 

[Zolpidem18]

What about practicing in India if you're planning on going there anyway for residency?

Very disinclined to practice in India.I'd prefer to speak and use english as my medium of communication and i am not suited for the culture there.Why i got into med school there rather than here in Singapore is an unfortunate decision made my one of my parents(an Indian citizen).

 

[TexasPhysician]

FMG spots are getting harder to secure every year. 3 years later is likely to be more difficult.

There are many FMG’s that apply with excellent applications. Without really good connections or absolutely amazing Step scores, your failures are a big red flag that may be too much to overlook.

My advise would be to do whatever would best prepare you for practicing medicine elsewhere. Don’t close doors when a US residency is a longshot. I wish you the best.

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

Perhaps your medical school performance was complicated by your ambivalence about "one of your parent's decision".
It sounds like everyone is telling you the same thing. You can keep plan A as your dream, but have a plan B and don't do anything to make plan B less likely or you may have no plan. In the West, words from "a reputed faculty member" can sometimes bring an application in a sea of average up to the top of the pile, but that word is unlikely to erase any failings.

I don't think any training director can go an entire application season without getting at least one phone call or visit from someone with a friend or relative who is applying. These attempts to influence the process are generally ignored or simply generate a "courtesy interview" that then results in being off or at the bottom of the list. Not my institution or my specialty, but there have been cases where IMG's have offered to train without pay that have resulted in sanctions and legal action against programs. Small bribes get us into legal trouble, but if a family endows a department or builds a research building via a board, a dean and a chairman, that of course is philanthropy and is encouraged.

 

[Nerdbomb99]

S

Very disinclined to practice in India.I'd prefer to speak and use english as my medium of communication and i am not suited for the culture there.Why i got into med school there rather than here in Singapore is an unfortunate decision made my one of my parents(an Indian citizen).

I couldn't help address this message.What do you mean an "unfortunate" decision.I am a citizen of Singapore,having gone to med school here and am now in India,the system of residency is pretty alright,the culture:i'd say everybody would be comfortable working in India,most people speak english,not to a proficient level,but it's managable.

 

[Zolpidem18]

FMG spots are getting harder to secure every year. 3 years later is likely to be more difficult.

There are many FMG’s that apply with excellent applications. Without really good connections or absolutely amazing Step scores, your failures are a big red flag that may be too much to overlook.

My advise would be to do whatever would best prepare you for practicing medicine elsewhere. Don’t close doors when a US residency is a longshot. I wish you the best.

Thankyou for your honest suggestion and your good wishes .I wish there was more intel about prospects for India trained physicians to work in first world nations with english as the primary language of communication.It seems like all doors to those nations close once you're a physician from India unless like you said,strong connections and stellar scores.

 

[Zolpidem18]

"You can keep plan A as your dream, but have a plan B and don't do anything to make plan B less likely or you may have no plan":

That is exactly why i've opted for plan B to fall back on incase my pursuit for an American medical residency doesn't work out.

Not my institution or my specialty, but there have been cases where IMG's have offered to train without pay that have resulted in sanctions and legal action against programs.

If i was offered a position to train without pay,i'd take it without a hitch.

but if a family endows a department or builds a research building via a board, a dean and a chairman, that of course is philanthropy and is encouraged.

I'm aware of this and it actually infuriates me when i hear of fellow college mates getting into residency with just about average scores,with very poor fluency in english and a totally false ignorance driven idea about the culture in the U.S. getting into medical residency by such influences.

Yes,it'd be a gamble with my career to let this oppurtunity go and only fixate on a quest to make it into med residency in the U.S.,but to digest that it cannot happen with the red flags and the high competition is very disheartening for somebody who truely wants to pursue it for the passion of the field and the love for the culture.I feel these two criterias are not given much importance.I also have college mates who marry somebody in a residency program and then get into residency on their spouses' credit,so many of those cases.One kid's parents own a hospital in pittsburg thanks to which he made it in,even after flunking the C.S. exam twice and barely qualifying the minimum bar in the steps.Others got an interview off this guy's leverage,got in.Some xyz married the one who got in and he/she got in too.Five years later they form a group on facebook of those who made it into med residency there flaunting their success.Neither were they big achievers,nor did they know diddly squat about the culture.Those who strived and secured excellent scores,were accolade achieving students all through med school with all the knowledge and knack of the culture needed to be perfect candidates,have been around for years praying each time for a match.It's the truth and it's unfair.Land of the free,home of the brave.Seems like land of the loopholes,home of the influential,which ardently patriotic citizens with genuine love for their country drop out of college to defend it.No offense.I love America,since when i 1st visited as a 7 year old,have been visiting a lot since then.I'm filled with grief,how my childhood dream seems so far fetched because some ambitious randoms just wanna make money in the greatest nation using "strong connections".[/QUOTE]

 

[Zolpidem18]

S

I couldn't help address this message.What do you mean an "unfortunate" decision.I am a citizen of Singapore,having gone to med school here and am now in India,the system of residency is pretty alright,the culture:i'd say everybody would be comfortable working in India,most people speak english,not to a proficient level,but it's managable.

There is a system in medical residency in India that is followed?,if there is i must have been living in an alternate dimension."Everybody would be comfortable working as a doctor in India",really?With mobs attacking them incase a patient loses his/her life due to complications the doc couldn't do anything about?Bowing down to senior professors and taking every kind of c**p from them,treated like a slave working for a remorseless boss(the general attitude).A professor could literally abuse a trainee/student in ways and not a squeak would be heard.Please,do not talk to me about the system in India,i've actually gone to med school there.You are in India but have you even begun medical residency there?Before you do,my wish lord be with you.

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

.Land of the free,home of the brave.Seems like land of the loopholes,home of the influential,which ardently patriotic citizens with genuine love for their country drop out of college to defend it.No offense.I love America,since when i 1st visited as a 7 year old,have been visiting a lot since then.I'm filled with grief,how my childhood dream seems so far fetched because some ambitious randoms just wanna make money in the greatest nation using "strong connections".

[/QUOTE]
Honestly this was mostly sarcasm. If someone owned a hospital that had a small residency, their niece may get in, but for the most part we are talking getting your name on the medical school to be able to do this. The US isn't fair except in comparison to about everything else in the world. Like Winston Churchill said, "Democracy is the worst form of government except for all of the others".

 

[Zolpidem18]

Honestly this was mostly sarcasm. If someone owned a hospital that had a small residency, their niece may get in, but for the most part we are talking getting your name on the medical school to be able to do this. The US isn't fair except in comparison to about everything else in the world. Like Winston Churchill said, "Democracy is the worst form of government except for all of the others".[/QUOTE]
I got the sarcasm,there's a lotta truth to it though and yes,fair in comparison to the rest of the world,no country's citizens can exhibit their freedom of speech in the manner americans do,which is one of the reasons that makes the nation ideal.There sure are extremists in the society who are a nuisance,but there are better elements that make it an awesome place.Pardon me if the topic diverted into another direction.

 

[SmallBird]

I got the sarcasm,there's a lotta truth to it though and yes,fair in comparison to the rest of the world,no country's citizens can exhibit their freedom of speech in the manner americans do,which is one of the reasons that makes the nation ideal.There sure are extremists in the society who are a nuisance,but there are better elements that make it an awesome place.Pardon me if the topic diverted into another direction.

A lotta truth? I don't know, I would think that instances where people get into residency because of financial contributions is vanishingly rare, and certainly not something I can think of as happening at any program that is associated with high quality training.

 

[st2205]

Bowing down to senior professors and taking every kind of c**p from them,treated like a slave working for a remorseless boss(the general attitude).

I can’t figure out what this word is.

 

[Nerdbomb99]

I can’t figure out what this word is.

Are you really an attending physician?..a dummy could figure that out without having to read it twice .

 

[Zolpidem18]

Lets not mock him nerdbomb 99.We're the foreigners(on paper) .

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

I can’t figure out what this word is.

I think st2205 was having trouble imagining that anything he dishes out could be called cr*p or c*ap (just in case I'm thinking too abstractly and need to get concrete). Don't give us your tired, your poor... just come over and we will work you hard and under pay you.

 

[Zolpidem18]

I think st2205 was having trouble imagining that anything he dishes out could be called cr*p or c*ap (just in case I'm thinking too abstractly and need to get concrete). Don't give us your tired, your poor... just come over and we will work you hard and under pay you.

"Tired and poor" says a guy with a profile name after mcdonald's meal .Do you know what it's like being an upper middle class person from Singapore.It's the most expensive country in the world.You should be banned from this forum for talking like that.Definitely pro-trump,a jerk to his spouse,a dirty,shameless pig.It's people like you who give America a bad rep.If you were before me,i'd make so much fun of you,humiliate you so bad,you'd wanna dig a hole and bury your face it.

 

[Nerdbomb99]

I think st2205 was having trouble imagining that anything he dishes out could be called cr*p or c*ap (just in case I'm thinking too abstractly and need to get concrete). Don't give us your tired, your poor... just come over and we will work you hard and under pay you.

Anything you'd dish out would be c**p ,i mean look at your grammar.With that attitude you shouldn't be a doc and shouldn't even be worthy of flipping burgers at mcdonald's(i know nobody flips burgers anymore,it's sarcasm).

 

[Nerdbomb99]

Zolpidem18:You're wasting your time here, get those stellar scores that these jokers couldn't achieve in a lifetime,get there after your M.D. in India,and like the usual scene head the deparment of psychiatry where you work after a decade.You know you have it in you,go through threads and figure the attitude meted out to asians/indians.You'll mostly come across stale sarcasm and cheap attempts at making you feel lower.No wonder Indians and chinese take over what's best there.

 

[justfolks]

Just a patient, but wow, this thread took a crazy turn. Zolpidem18, are you not aware that McDonaldTriad is a PD, and a longstanding and very helpful poster on this board? I think he/she was trying to be helpful, perhaps with a little humor thrown in. Your response was totally uncalled for. And Nerdbomb99, are you a troll? I can't think of any other reason for your incredibly rude posts.

 

[Zolpidem18]

Just a patient, but wow, this thread took a crazy turn. Zolpidem18, are you not aware that McDonaldTriad is a PD, and a longstanding and very helpful poster on this board? I think he/she was trying to be helpful, perhaps with a little humor thrown in. Your response was totally uncalled for. And Nerdbomb99, are you a troll? I can't think of any other reason for your incredibly rude posts.

So what if he's a PD.He could be the messiah of medicine in the U.S.He should know when to use what kind of humour,it can be misconstrued.Imgs' problems are serious.You're a patient right,supposing you were seriously ill and helpless,would you like if i told you "come here,i'll use your sickness to extract as much money from you and then refer you to some other doc".It's along the same lines.Are you aware of the amount of bullying that goes on across these forums and in reality to imgs?.You're not.So please.Nerdbomb 99 and me have been talking via the pm service.We people leave our homelands and give up everything to be a part of your healthcare.Your PD calls me "tired and poor" without knowing anything about me.Do you think stereotyping me like other cases is correct?Nerdbomb isn't a troll by the way,she's graduated from Singapore's no.1 regarded med school.We pursue the U.S. for the love of the culture,hoping to re-live the adventures and good times we've had when we visited,not for the money,our country pays us plenty of it.

 

[Zolpidem18]

Also these "crazy turns" are often seen in threads from what i've come across.

 

[Nerdbomb99]

"Tired and poor" says a guy with a profile name after mcdonald's meal .

Lololol!.That is the best one i've heard and the week hasn't even begun.

 

[TexasPhysician]

The question appears to be answered, and the thread is off-topic in an unprofessional way. Closing.