Disability insurance question about true own occ

[Ravenclaw90]

I am comparing quotes for true own occupation disability insurance policies from Guardian, Ohio National and Standard. Guardian seems to cost the most bc of their definition of totally disabled. Their definition goes beyond saying “if you can’t perform the substantial and material duties of your own occupation” and specifies that if you lose 50% of your income due to not being able to perform “hands on care” or “surgical procedures” then you are totally disabled. They essentially define surgical procedures as those requiring surgical instruments, the OR and or respiratory support.

My question is if you all think it is worthwhile to pay double for the Guardian policy. I realize the majority of posters have no experience filing a claim (thankfully), but I am wondering if anyone knows how iron clad the true own occ definitions are between the six or so companies that offer them. I am also wondering how often people have to take these companies to court and how the language of “substantive and material duties” is usually interpreted by the law. Would love to hear people’s thoughts on this given that while I think it’s critical to have disability insurance, I see no reason to pay more than I have to in order to get real coverage.

To me, it seems beneficial to us anesthesiologists to go with Guardian because in theory, an anesthesiologist could still work within the field of anesthesiology by conducting pre-op evaluations, perioperative home type work, or perhaps supervision of cRNAs. I’m also thinking the Guardian policy might be more advantageous to an interventional pain physician than an OR anesthesiologist...it seems insane that a claim could be denied even if the attending couldn’t mask ventilate, etc. There is a vast list of damages that could cause an anesthesiologist to file disability but I am thinking of the most common- musculoskeletal, malignancy, pregnancy, digestive disorders like Crohn’s, etc.

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[Ravenclaw90]

I should add the Guardian is the only company that comments on income and the actual amount of 50% loss in relation to total disability. The other companies are more vague on how they’d define disability (though they all say if you can’t work within anesthesiology, you’d be totally disabled even if, for ex, you could be a psychiatrist).

 

[chessknt]

I am comparing quotes for true own occupation disability insurance policies from Guardian, Ohio National and Standard. Guardian seems to cost the most bc of their definition of totally disabled. Their definition goes beyond saying “if you can’t perform the substantial and material duties of your own occupation” and specifies that if you lose 50% of your income due to not being able to perform “hands on care” or “surgical procedures” then you are totally disabled. They essentially define surgical procedures as those requiring surgical instruments, the OR and or respiratory support.

My question is if you all think it is worthwhile to pay double for the Guardian policy. I realize the majority of posters have no experience filing a claim (thankfully), but I am wondering if anyone knows how iron clad the true own occ definitions are between the six or so companies that offer them. I am also wondering how often people have to take these companies to court and how the language of “substantive and material duties” is usually interpreted by the law. Would love to hear people’s thoughts on this given that while I think it’s critical to have disability insurance, I see no reason to pay more than I have to in order to get real coverage.

To me, it seems beneficial to us anesthesiologists to go with Guardian because in theory, an anesthesiologist could still work within the field of anesthesiology by conducting pre-op evaluations, perioperative home type work, or perhaps supervision of cRNAs. I’m also thinking the Guardian policy might be more advantageous to an interventional pain physician than an OR anesthesiologist...it seems insane that a claim could be denied even if the attending couldn’t mask ventilate, etc. There is a vast list of damages that could cause an anesthesiologist to file disability but I am thinking of the most common- musculoskeletal, malignancy, pregnancy, digestive disorders like Crohn’s, etc.

My understanding is that it is generally defined on what you were doing at the time of disability. So if you were doing all preop clinic and not doing any hands on care then you might be in trouble with the others but if that isnt the case you would be fine. This is more pertinent in other fields like IM where you do all cognitive work as a resident and get a policy at that time, then if you go on to subspecialize in interventional cardiology the policy isnt going to make you go become a hospitalist if you lose a hand.

 

[GassYous]

I don't know but I used a third party from wci and ended up with a pretty good ameritas policy. It is expensive, almost 4k a year but worth it for the security I feel.

 

[MD Financial Services Scott]

I am comparing quotes for true own occupation disability insurance policies from Guardian, Ohio National and Standard. Guardian seems to cost the most bc of their definition of totally disabled. Their definition goes beyond saying “if you can’t perform the substantial and material duties of your own occupation” and specifies that if you lose 50% of your income due to not being able to perform “hands on care” or “surgical procedures” then you are totally disabled. They essentially define surgical procedures as those requiring surgical instruments, the OR and or respiratory support.

My question is if you all think it is worthwhile to pay double for the Guardian policy. I realize the majority of posters have no experience filing a claim (thankfully), but I am wondering if anyone knows how iron clad the true own occ definitions are between the six or so companies that offer them. I am also wondering how often people have to take these companies to court and how the language of “substantive and material duties” is usually interpreted by the law. Would love to hear people’s thoughts on this given that while I think it’s critical to have disability insurance, I see no reason to pay more than I have to in order to get real coverage.

To me, it seems beneficial to us anesthesiologists to go with Guardian because in theory, an anesthesiologist could still work within the field of anesthesiology by conducting pre-op evaluations, perioperative home type work, or perhaps supervision of cRNAs. I’m also thinking the Guardian policy might be more advantageous to an interventional pain physician than an OR anesthesiologist...it seems insane that a claim could be denied even if the attending couldn’t mask ventilate, etc. There is a vast list of damages that could cause an anesthesiologist to file disability but I am thinking of the most common- musculoskeletal, malignancy, pregnancy, digestive disorders like Crohn’s, etc.

My opinion is not to pay a premium for that. I know it sounds like the 50% rule can be advantageous but it also gives them a hard line to say 50% did come from X so you are not totally disabled. We have seen where folks as low as 34% of their income came from X but the carrier still considered it a total claim. You really should be fine with any of the big 4-6 carriers depending on what state you live in especially with anesthesiology as your specialty.

 

[pjl]

I am comparing quotes for true own occupation disability insurance policies from Guardian, Ohio National and Standard. Guardian seems to cost the most bc of their definition of totally disabled. Their definition goes beyond saying “if you can’t perform the substantial and material duties of your own occupation” and specifies that if you lose 50% of your income due to not being able to perform “hands on care” or “surgical procedures” then you are totally disabled. They essentially define surgical procedures as those requiring surgical instruments, the OR and or respiratory support.

My question is if you all think it is worthwhile to pay double for the Guardian policy. I realize the majority of posters have no experience filing a claim (thankfully), but I am wondering if anyone knows how iron clad the true own occ definitions are between the six or so companies that offer them. I am also wondering how often people have to take these companies to court and how the language of “substantive and material duties” is usually interpreted by the law. Would love to hear people’s thoughts on this given that while I think it’s critical to have disability insurance, I see no reason to pay more than I have to in order to get real coverage.

To me, it seems beneficial to us anesthesiologists to go with Guardian because in theory, an anesthesiologist could still work within the field of anesthesiology by conducting pre-op evaluations, perioperative home type work, or perhaps supervision of cRNAs. I’m also thinking the Guardian policy might be more advantageous to an interventional pain physician than an OR anesthesiologist...it seems insane that a claim could be denied even if the attending couldn’t mask ventilate, etc. There is a vast list of damages that could cause an anesthesiologist to file disability but I am thinking of the most common- musculoskeletal, malignancy, pregnancy, digestive disorders like Crohn’s, etc.

I know a surgeon who is living happily on full guardian disability because he can no longer perform operations longer than 2 hours. He has a semi legitimate issue for his inability, but is nowhere near what I would call disabled.

I also know hundred of people who are not getting benefits from their policies, Guardian or otherwise.

Only you can decide what you need to insure, for me the few thousand a year are worth the piece of mind.

 

[Ravenclaw90]

I know a surgeon who is living happily on full guardian disability because he can no longer perform operations longer than 2 hours. He has a semi legitimate issue for his inability, but is nowhere near what I would call disabled.

I also know hundred of people who are not getting benefits from their policies, Guardian or otherwise.

Only you can decide what you need to insure, for me the few thousand a year are worth the piece of mind.

Do you mean hundreds of ppl who never needed to file a claim while paying their premiums or there are hundreds of ppl who have filed a claim and got denied?

I will most definitely be getting disability insurance no matter what.

 

[Ravenclaw90]

My opinion is not to pay a premium for that. I know it sounds like the 50% rule can be advantageous but it also gives them a hard line to say 50% did come from X so you are not totally disabled. We have seen where folks as low as 34% of their income came from X but the carrier still considered it a total claim. You really should be fine with any of the big 4-6 carriers depending on what state you live in especially with anesthesiology as your specialty.

I actually plan to get two disability policies so that I have the flexibility to cancel one of them down the line. I was thinking it’d be nice to get policies from two different companies in case one of them proves difficult. In that case, would you think that it’d be helpful to get one from guardian (due to the extra language and focus on income) and one from standard? I guess what I’m wondering is if any of those 4-6 companies are notoriously challenging to work with when it comes time to file a claim. Is that too hard to generalize or is there a company among those 6 that is especially user friendly and worth prioritizing as an anesthesiologist?

 

[dabears505]

The key is to get disability as early as you can.

 

[pjl]

Do you mean hundreds of ppl who never needed to file a claim while paying their premiums or there are hundreds of ppl who have filed a claim and got denied?

I will most definitely be getting disability insurance no matter what.

The first.

 

[MD Financial Services Scott]

I actually plan to get two disability policies so that I have the flexibility to cancel one of them down the line. I was thinking it’d be nice to get policies from two different companies in case one of them proves difficult. In that case, would you think that it’d be helpful to get one from guardian (due to the extra language and focus on income) and one from standard? I guess what I’m wondering is if any of those 4-6 companies are notoriously challenging to work with when it comes time to file a claim. Is that too hard to generalize or is there a company among those 6 that is especially user friendly and worth prioritizing as an anesthesiologist?

I am not an advocate for getting two policies. 2x the underwriting, 2x the keeping up with something, and if there is a claim 2x the process to go through. My suggestion is to get one policy then as you don't need the policy you can reduce the benefit amount to reduce the cost but you can also drop riders you don't want any longer, extend the waiting period and so on. There are a lot of levers you can pull to change things up and reduce cost but still fit what you are needing at that time.

 

[painfree23]

Don’t need two policies.. just get a rider that allows you to adjust the potential income $ without a physical exam/history.