SD Skunk

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this is a serious question and i do not intend to start any heated/emotional debates, but: due to affirmative action, how much does it hurt your chances of getting into a med school if you are both asian-american and male? i know for a fact that asian-americans are not considered "underrepresented minorities." in fact, it's rumored that asian-americans are at a greater disadvantage than whites.
 

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for the same reason that a medical school wouldn't pick a class to include 200 Bio majors from California, affirmative action exists to create medical school classes just as diverse as the society in which we live.

so, in short, yes, it does put you at a disadvantage, but as long as you find a way to set yourself apart from your fellow asian american male applicants you should be fine.
 

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SD Skunk said:
this is a serious question and i do not intend to start any heated/emotional debates, but: due to affirmative action, how much does it hurt your chances of getting into a med school if you are both asian-american and male? i know for a fact that asian-americans are not considered "underrepresented minorities." in fact, it's rumored that asian-americans are at a greater disadvantage than whites.
eh. I'm south asian male... but I live in Kentucky. So you don't find many of us around here. but yeah, I can see if your from cali, that it could put you at a disadvantage. but just gotta try hard man. a lot of times life isn't fair. I ran into this applying for undergrad colleges I thought. just gotta do it. gluck.
 

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Life isn't fair my friend. You will find yourself getting a raw deal in everything you do. Then again, you also will get your share of advantages too. Those are the breaks. Just be grateful you have what you got. With that said, if certain underrepresented minorities are given preference, then that naturally means that those groups overrepresented will be rejected more. There are only so many spots to fill and so your odds in that sense are lower compared to an equally qualified underrepresented minority. Caucasians tend to have more legacy admissions so that's a factor too. However, that will even out as more and more asians enter medical professions. More than ever, you have to do things that are "interesting". Try not to be cookie cutter and find something unique that will put you over the top (assuming you have great grades and MCATS).
 

antissa

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I'm not male, but I'm very aware of the asian-american disadvantage
My dad got his foot out the door by placing in the top 1% nationwide in China, so they sent him abroad to study and he applied to med school here as a special applicant with a foreign M.D., Masters, Ph.D, and didn't get in. When he called the interviewer to ask him why, the guy flat out told him that he was an excellent candidate, better than most of the other non-asian candidates that were accepted, but that he had been sized up against the other 20 chinese national scholars, not the general applicant pool. He took the case to the dean, and eventually won, but it clearly wasn't a victory for discrimination at large, because the other 15 rejected scholars got squat. It was just damage control because the interviewer was stupid enough to ADMIT discrimination. Needless to say, nobody would ever give you feedback thing like this anymore, but it doesn't mean that it doesn't still happen

FYI, I'm not against giving priority to underrepresented minorities. But I would be equally outraged if, for example, some guy said hmm, there are a lot of Jewish ppl in med school. We should put them in a separate pool, rank them against each other, then take only max 10, regardless of whether they are > 10 who are much more qualified than the non-Jewish candidates
 

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antissa said:
I'm not male, but I'm very aware of the asian-american disadvantage
My dad got his foot out the door by placing in the top 1% nationwide in China, so they sent him abroad to study and he applied to med school here as a special applicant with a foreign M.D., Masters, Ph.D, and didn't get in. When he called the interviewer to ask him why, the guy flat out told him that he was an excellent candidate, better than most of the other non-asian candidates that were accepted, but that he had been sized up against the other 20 chinese national scholars, not the general applicant pool. He took the case to the dean, and eventually won, but it clearly wasn't a victory for discrimination at large, because the other 15 rejected scholars got squat. It was just damage control because the interviewer was stupid enough to ADMIT discrimination. Needless to say, nobody would ever give you feedback thing like this anymore, but it doesn't mean that it doesn't still happen

FYI, I'm not against giving priority to underrepresented minorities. But I would be equally outraged if, for example, some guy said hmm, there are a lot of Jewish ppl in med school. We should put them in a separate pool, rank them against each other, then take only max 10, regardless of whether they are > 10 who are much more qualified than the non-Jewish candidates
wow....

but about affirmative action. isn't that just a euphemistic way of saying to african americans and hispanics, you're a different color and generally not considered a ppl of medical school material, so we'll help you get a foot in the door?

it makes no sense to me. if they want more black and hispanic doctors go to med school, they should start teaching that this is a possibility for them in preschool, elementary, m.s., and h.s. the system HAS GOT to be changed. and i'm not here to bag on these minorities, but what justifies having a person's skin color allow a greater chance of getting into med school than who are white or asian. and even thinking about it, since there a larger majority of whites and asians applying, blacks and hispanics have a larger acceptance rate as a whole b/c they are saved certain % spots in the class.

as i see it, it's a whole type of discrimination all over again, just in a smarter suit.
 
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SD Skunk

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bbaek said:
wow....

but about affirmative action. isn't that just a euphemistic way of saying to african americans and hispanics, you're a different color and generally not considered a ppl of medical school material, so we'll help you get a foot in the door?

it makes no sense to me. if they want more black and hispanic doctors go to med school, they should start teaching that this is a possibility for them in preschool, elementary, m.s., and h.s. the system HAS GOT to be changed. and i'm not here to bag on these minorities, but what justifies having a person's skin color allow a greater chance of getting into med school than who are white or asian. and even thinking about it, since there a larger majority of whites and asians applying, blacks and hispanics have a larger acceptance rate as a whole b/c they are saved certain % spots in the class.

as i see it, it's a whole type of discrimination all over again, just in a smarter suit.
i agree completely.

not to mention the commonly overlooked, subtler evil of how affirmative action will continue to perpetuate the stereotype that blacks, hispanics, women, etc. are not inclined to be doctors. if a qualified black student at yale tells someone he's at yale, many people involuntarily and reflexively think, "ah, affirmative action at work." unfair, yes. in think in the end, all races and both genders lose out. noble intentions, yes, but a very blatant example of fighting fire with fire.

and despite the very obvious wrongness of it (in my opinion), it will always be rationalized somehow to the point where it seems not only necessary, but also moral. so a very touchy and complex issue it is indeed. a loose parallel can be drawn with file-sharing of music and movies. it's wrong, obviously. but it's commonly accepted and often rationalized, and it will continue to be done.
 

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bbaek said:
wow....

but about affirmative action. isn't that just a euphemistic way of saying to african americans and hispanics, you're a different color and generally not considered a ppl of medical school material, so we'll help you get a foot in the door?

it makes no sense to me. if they want more black and hispanic doctors to go to med school, they should start teaching that this is a possibility for them in preschool, elementary, m.s., and h.s. the system HAS GOT to be changed. and i'm not here to bag on these minorities, but what justifies having a person's skin color allow a greater chance of getting into med school than for those who are white or asian. and even thinking about it, since there is a larger majority of whites and asians applying, blacks and hispanics have a larger acceptance rate as a whole b/c they are saved certain % spots in the class.

as i see it, it's a whole type of discrimination all over again, just in a smarter suit.

At least learn to write properly before openly criticizing race-sensitive admissions policies -- it really doesn't help your case one bit.
 

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antissa said:
I'm not male, but I'm very aware of the asian-american disadvantage
My dad got his foot out the door by placing in the top 1% nationwide in China, so they sent him abroad to study and he applied to med school here as a special applicant with a foreign M.D., Masters, Ph.D, and didn't get in. When he called the interviewer to ask him why, the guy flat out told him that he was an excellent candidate, better than most of the other non-asian candidates that were accepted, but that he had been sized up against the other 20 chinese national scholars, not the general applicant pool. He took the case to the dean, and eventually won, but it clearly wasn't a victory for discrimination at large, because the other 15 rejected scholars got squat. It was just damage control because the interviewer was stupid enough to ADMIT discrimination. Needless to say, nobody would ever give you feedback thing like this anymore, but it doesn't mean that it doesn't still happen

FYI, I'm not against giving priority to underrepresented minorities. But I would be equally outraged if, for example, some guy said hmm, there are a lot of Jewish ppl in med school. We should put them in a separate pool, rank them against each other, then take only max 10, regardless of whether they are > 10 who are much more qualified than the non-Jewish candidates

Perhaps a school doesn't want to have 20 Chinese National Scholars in its incoming class. That's not discrimination - it's just common sense that a medical school would want a diverse class that reflects the diversity seen in today's pluralistic society.
 

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bbaek said:
wow....

but about affirmative action. isn't that just a euphemistic way of saying to african americans and hispanics, you're a different color and generally not considered a ppl of medical school material, so we'll help you get a foot in the door?

it makes no sense to me. if they want more black and hispanic doctors go to med school, they should start teaching that this is a possibility for them in preschool, elementary, m.s., and h.s. the system HAS GOT to be changed. and i'm not here to bag on these minorities, but what justifies having a person's skin color allow a greater chance of getting into med school than who are white or asian. and even thinking about it, since there a larger majority of whites and asians applying, blacks and hispanics have a larger acceptance rate as a whole b/c they are saved certain % spots in the class.

as i see it, it's a whole type of discrimination all over again, just in a smarter suit.
I think there are a lot of people who would prefer to have a doctor who shares their ethnicity, which makes sense, which, in turn, makes sense of affirmative action. Plus, even though we asian males don't necessarily benefit from affirmative action in admissions, we get the benefit of a diverse class if we get into the school, and I definitely appreciate that.
 

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bbaek said:
if they want more black and hispanic doctors go to med school, they should start teaching that this is a possibility for them in preschool, elementary, m.s., and h.s. the system HAS GOT to be changed.
You want to change the education system? Good luck. If you can figure out a good way to do it, there's probably a Secretary of Education position waiting for you.
 

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antissa said:
I'm not male, but I'm very aware of the asian-american disadvantage
My dad got his foot out the door by placing in the top 1% nationwide in China, so they sent him abroad to study and he applied to med school here as a special applicant with a foreign M.D., Masters, Ph.D, and didn't get in. When he called the interviewer to ask him why, the guy flat out told him that he was an excellent candidate, better than most of the other non-asian candidates that were accepted, but that he had been sized up against the other 20 chinese national scholars, not the general applicant pool. He took the case to the dean, and eventually won, but it clearly wasn't a victory for discrimination at large, because the other 15 rejected scholars got squat. It was just damage control because the interviewer was stupid enough to ADMIT discrimination. Needless to say, nobody would ever give you feedback thing like this anymore, but it doesn't mean that it doesn't still happen

FYI, I'm not against giving priority to underrepresented minorities. But I would be equally outraged if, for example, some guy said hmm, there are a lot of Jewish ppl in med school. We should put them in a separate pool, rank them against each other, then take only max 10, regardless of whether they are > 10 who are much more qualified than the non-Jewish candidates
Being compared to a group of candidates from the same scholar program is not discrimination. Yeah, they all happened to be Chinese National Scholars, but he chose to be a part of that program. I applied to the University of North Dakota through this program called "Indians into Medicine" or "INMED" for short (that's native americans not east indians) and was competing against 19 other people who were enrolled in a federally recognized tribe for 7 spots. I was not competing against the rest of the class. The 7 spots were requested when the INMED program started as an addition to the UND Med School class. So it's not an affirmative action program. Anyway, saying that your father was discriminated against by having to compete with 19 other Chinese National Scholars for a med school spot is like saying I was discriminated against by having to compete with other people enrolled in a native american tribe.

Did anyone who is not considered part of an under-represented minority think about the fact that usually people from those minorities usually start out less-advantaged?
I.E. Ability to go to good schools due to the fact that they live in neighborhoods that don't have the same caliber of schools and resources.

There are a few who reap the privaledges of affirmative action policies who are exceptions to the rule, but there are always going to be exceptions, and usually those people are just as qualified as non-minority candidates because of their socioeconomic backgrounds. For some people applying to multiple schools is difficult due to financial constraints. As we all know the amount of schools to which one applies often results in whether one gets at least one acceptance offer. There are plenty of factors that come into play in gaining admission to medical school for everyone.
 

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Mateodaspy said:
At least learn to write properly before openly criticizing race-sensitive admissions policies -- it really doesn't help your case one bit.
It's a message board, so chill! I agree with the point you made following this one.
 

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HumptyDumpty said:
I think there are a lot of people who would prefer to have a doctor who shares their ethnicity, which makes sense, which, in turn, makes sense of affirmative action. Plus, even though we asian males don't necessarily benefit from affirmative action in admissions, we get the benefit of a diverse class if we get into the school, and I definitely appreciate that.
Diversity is something I'm really looking for in a medical school. There's a thread right now discussing the awesome stats on mdapplicants.com and if you read the posts, many applicants are hoping admission committies look at more than scores and grades. That said, I am aware of my own hipocracy and would feel a sting if I new someone with lesser stats beat me out. But, I don't think admission to medical school is just some award for doing the best academically. I think they really are trying to create a group of physicians who represent society and identify with it. I'm glad it's that way.
 

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bbaek said:
wow....

but about affirmative action. isn't that just a euphemistic way of saying to african americans and hispanics, you're a different color and generally not considered a ppl of medical school material, so we'll help you get a foot in the door?

it makes no sense to me. if they want more black and hispanic doctors go to med school, they should start teaching that this is a possibility for them in preschool, elementary, m.s., and h.s. the system HAS GOT to be changed. and i'm not here to bag on these minorities, but what justifies having a person's skin color allow a greater chance of getting into med school than who are white or asian. and even thinking about it, since there a larger majority of whites and asians applying, blacks and hispanics have a larger acceptance rate as a whole b/c they are saved certain % spots in the class.

as i see it, it's a whole type of discrimination all over again, just in a smarter suit.
People are selfish and will always be looking out for their own best interests. Take Asians in California, for example. Several years ago, while they were will still considered URMs, Cali Asians were mostly very supportive of affirmative action (AA). More recently, however, they have achieved non-URM status, and many have been complaining about the inherent unfairness of AA. Why such a drastic and pervasive change in sentiment? Because this group of people went from being helped to being screwed. Whites, Blacks, Hispanics, etc. would do the same thing; it's human nature. That said, I definitely agree with the need for AA, since it ensures that the medical profession will have at least a semblance of a cross-section of our society, although I will admit that such a procedure may not be entirely fair.
 

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No, the discrimination was not being compared to others of the same race. The discrimination was the fact that they only took ONE out of the group. And yes, the diversity thing is the issue they quoted, and it's perfectly valid if the city I lived in was swimming with asian folk, but actually, there were very very few (I NEVER came across another asian kid in my schools), so how did they come up with the cap of ONE? Clearly some adcom going "you know what, I just don't like the chinese guys very much. We'll just pick one to represent the group and that should shut them up" :rolleyes:
 

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im a south-asian male
i really think it depends on where you are applying. if your in cali, tx, ny, nj... you might be at a slight disadvantage just because they are so many others of us folk (asians) applying.
not a really big deal though. gpa/mcat/ecs/vol take precedence over race, atleast thats what i think
 

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antissa said:
No, the discrimination was not being compared to others of the same race. The discrimination was the fact that they only took ONE out of the group. And yes, the diversity thing is the issue they quoted, and it's perfectly valid if the city I lived in was swimming with asian folk, but actually, there were very very few (I NEVER came across another asian kid in my schools), so how did they come up with the cap of ONE? Clearly some adcom going "you know what, I just don't like the chinese guys very much. We'll just pick one to represent the group and that should shut them up" :rolleyes:
i followed you until that last sentence. i think discrimination is rarely so clear-cut and conscious, and that it's problematic to use a term like "clearly" to describe the thought process of someone you've never talked to. not that there wasn't discrimination in your dad's case, and that there aren't issues to discuss... just that the thinking is probably more subtle and miltifaceted than that on all sides, and attributing dislike & bad motives without concrete facts is rarely helpful.

was there an issue of national vs. international students? 'cause i would think that might play into it too, with chinese national scholars.
 

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Discrimination- a choosing with care/good taste, discernment/the making of distinctions (often unfair) in meting our treatment, service etc.

When you look at the definition of the word it really doesn't sound that bad. My two cents is it is B.S. to give preference to anybody because of race and/or gender. Diversify my A$$. I know a pre-med student from Ghana (Africa) that gets nothing less than A's in all of his classes (very smart). This kid was born in an extremely adverse situation and still managed to overcome. I know that this kid will go on and be one of the best doctors perhaps in this country. It humbles me to see this kid do so well coming from such a tough situation, when I am from a country that has everything. Less than 5% of the worlds population gets the privilege to be born in this country. I went to an innner city school that has a 15% drop out rate, and cannot tell you how many of my former classmates are dead or in jail (I am white & my school was very diversified). When I was younger I was headed down the wrong path so I have empathy for those that have a less than desirable environment. However anybody can become successful in this country if they try hard enough. When I first tried college I my performance was horrible. I took time off and instead of blaming the world on MY failures I decided to take control of MY destiny. I am doing great now and will most likely end up going the Osteopathic route, mainly because of my prior poor academic performance in school. Sorry if I sound like I'm ranting on but I really do not like the idea of discrimination. I hope I have given you some food for thought!
 

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Mateodaspy said:
At least learn to write properly before openly criticizing race-sensitive admissions policies -- it really doesn't help your case one bit.
Sorry for my grammar. I am still learning to how to write properly. :rolleyes:

But yes, concerning all the above posters about the lack of medical doctors that are hispanic and black. I understand the there is a great need for them in the healthcare system in America, especially when the Hispanic population is exploding and overtaking some predominant areas such as Los Angeles and overall, Southern California.

However, the issue of the lack of URM doctors CANNOT be resolved through the use of affirmative action. Why do you ask? Because it is the proper motivation that is needed pre-college that these Hispanic and Black students need, not a helping hand to get them into college.

Some may view this poster as a cold-hearted person, but please, let me explain.

Currently, I am in a pre-health student organization that specializes in Hispanic healthcare and its disparities. Students tell me that being in a four-year research university is a life-changing experience. As a Korean-American, I blindly ask them why is going to college such a big deal for them, even though I knew that many Hispanics do not go to college.

The answer was simple and I knew it existed, but actually hearing it from a person that you know answer in the way the he/she did, that was the part where it dropped on my head and finally realize the issue. These students who rarely go straight into high school into a four-year college usually take the transfer route at a community college because they have NO IDEA of what they are going to do in life. High school in the inner city, most specifically Los Angeles, does NOTHING to help students realize there is a better job than McDonald's or Carl's Jr. It is sad but true. The very administrators and teachers that are supposed to help students show the way to a successful and life-fulfilling job don't do their jobs.

Therefore, the use of affirmative action is not only a blow and a cleverly disguised form of altruism to set back the Hispanic and black populations, but a discriminatory practice that still pictures Hispanics and blacks as a "needing" minority that cannot fully prepare themselves for medical school, law school, and even UD-level education at a four year college/university. Sure, financial difficulties do play a large role in the factor of even going to college, but that is all these students are told. Instead, the focus of scholarships and grants being out there to help them pay for their education is not advertised widely enough and so the stigma of a large college bills still persist today.

Hispanics and blacks are smart on their own right. Let them shine in their merits and in their personalities as human beings rather than labeling them as disadvantaged and thus incorrectly correlating them as sub-par human beings.
 

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pakidoc said:
im a south-asian male
i really think it depends on where you are applying. if your in cali, tx, ny, nj... you might be at a slight disadvantage just because they are so many others of us folk (asians) applying.
not a really big deal though. gpa/mcat/ecs/vol take precedence over race, atleast thats what i think
I totally agree. I think it's silly to think that most minorities only get into medical school, or are strongly at an advantage because they are URMS. Don't believe everything that you hear either, there are a "good number" (much more than people would expect) of students who are not URMS who do get into top tens with LOW MCAT scores, I know a few at one ivy with 27's and F's on their transcripts!

Just do your best to get a good MCAT score and GPA, you will get a lot of acceptances. Good luck :thumbup:
 

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tesla123 said:
I totally agree. I think it's silly to think that most minorities only get into medical school, or are strongly at an advantage because they are URMS. Don't believe everything that you hear either, there are a "good number" (much more than people would expect) of students who are not URMS who do get into top tens with LOW MCAT scores, I know a few at one ivy with 27's and F's on their transcripts!

Just do your best to get a good MCAT score and GPA, you will get a lot of acceptances. Good luck :thumbup:
But those are students must have excelled somewhere, correct? And they are not the traditional student going straight into medical school after four years, I assume?
 
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bbaek said:
Hispanics and blacks are smart on their own right. Let them shine in their merits and in their personalities as human beings rather than labeling them as disadvantaged and thus incorrectly correlating them as sub-par human beings.
exactly. very well put. it's a pain in the ass to asian-americans and whites, and an insult to black and hispanics.
 

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"Hispanics and blacks are smart on their own right. Let them shine in their merits and in their personalities as human beings rather than labeling them as disadvantaged and thus incorrectly correlating them as sub-par human beings."

I agree, affirmative action in a way is discriminating, I never really thought about it. But I think in our society today, it is still needed to counter certain biases.
 

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I'm a white male from a well off family, so I'm far off from getting any leeway from the schools. I still believe the idea behind giving an advantage to certain minorities in the application process is a good thing:

Research has shown that a disproportionate percentage of minorities are of lower socioeconomic status, they come from worse areas, they grow up goinf to worse schools. Some of them don't get to worry solely about getting a stupid paper turned in on time and about sports and friends like I did in 8th grade - they have to worry about whether or not they will get enough to eat. They may have a real job at this point in time.

I'm not gonna drag on, but the point is that for many members of minorities, life is a lot harder. What I don't think is fair, would be having the guy who grew up next door to me, from a really good family, getting significant advantages.

I think judging off of socioeconimic status, and what area an applicant grew up in - instead of minority status - would be a fair way to go about things.
 

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bbaek said:
But those are students must have excelled somewhere, correct? And they are not the traditional student going straight into medical school after four years, I assume?
Sorry, no. Some went to the same Ivy for undergrad (thereby getting the important "recs" and others were from out-of-state- all were traditional. Most said that they didn't do well in undergrad and had very few EC's. I don't doubt that these people may one day become great physicians, if they get their act together soon, but I want to emphasize a point some people refuse to accept, adcoms are all different and give advantages to people based on a variety of things. There are URMS with 30+ on the MCAT, but they may never be considered above the students who have parents who are faculty at the med school they are applying to. I have had an adcom member that I know tell me this himself. This process is so variable, you have analyze each individual school's method of considering applicants, because in many ways it goes beyond affirmative action.

Again, just my thoughts, I hope I didn't offend anyone with my post. :)
 

bbaek

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tesla123 said:
Sorry, no. Some went to the same Ivy for undergrad (thereby getting the important "recs" and others were from out-of-state- all were traditional. Most said that they didn't do well in undergrad and had very few EC's. I don't doubt that these people may one day become great physicians, if they get their act together soon, but I want to emphasize a point some people refuse to accept, adcoms are all different and give advantages to people based on a variety of things. There are URMS with 30+ on the MCAT, but they may never be considered above the students who have parents who are faculty at the med school they are applying to. I have had an adcom member that I know tell me this himself. This process is so variable, you have analyze each individual school's method of considering applicants, because in many ways it goes beyond affirmative action.

Again, just my thoughts, I hope I didn't offend anyone with my post. :)
I definitely understand that such things probably do happen. Therefore, there should be more transparency in the applications process, but even that runs into privacy issues. But still, it is better than having a few spoiled brats who have high-powered parents working on the faculty get the few precious spots in a medical school that others are more deserving of.
 

tofurious

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DrDarwin said:
Take Asians in California, for example. Several years ago, while they were will still considered URMs, Cali Asians were mostly very supportive of affirmative action (AA). More recently, however, they have achieved non-URM status, and many have been complaining about the inherent unfairness of AA.
URM status is spelled out in Federal regulations, not by actual demographics. Asians were never part of the federally recognized 5 URM groups (African Americans, Hispanics, Pacific Islanders, Native Americans, and Puerto Ricans).
 

tofurious

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Newman8r said:
Research has shown that a disproportionate percentage of minorities are of lower socioeconomic status, they come from worse areas, they grow up goinf to worse schools.
Affirmative Action at the medical school level generally doesn't help folks like this. They never made it to college or past college. AA at the graduate school level too often helps the well-off URMs who come from middle to upper class families who had sufficient help achieving at the college level.

Overall, AA at the medical school level is a cosmetic fix to a long standing problem. It is too expensive and too consuming to fix the gap between the haves and have-nots from the elementary to secondary education levels, thus it is cheaper and easier to fix how things look on a "non-quota" quota system a la U Michigan and others (remember, quota at the college level is quota, but quota at the graduate school level is not quota). People are already questioning whether AA at the law school level actually serves the URM populations, and the answer is a resounding NO as many people who get in the door via AA are put into a situation where they cannot excel and are therefore destined to underachieve. It would be interesting to see if such discussions start at the med school level.
 

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tofurious said:
Affirmative Action at the medical school level generally doesn't help folks like this. They never made it to college or past college. AA at the graduate school level too often helps the well-off URMs who come from middle to upper class families who had sufficient help achieving at the college level.

Overall, AA at the medical school level is a cosmetic fix to a long standing problem. It is too expensive and too consuming to fix the gap between the haves and have-nots from the elementary to secondary education levels, thus it is cheaper and easier to fix how things look on a "non-quota" quota system a la U Michigan and others (remember, quota at the college level is quota, but quota at the graduate school level is not quota). People are already questioning whether AA at the law school level actually serves the URM populations, and the answer is a resounding NO as many people who get in the door via AA are put into a situation where they cannot excel and are therefore destined to underachieve. It would be interesting to see if such discussions start at the med school level.
a very good point that i wanted to mention as well. the well off, rich Hispanics and blacks in the community are getting the undeserving spots as a URM on the basis that maybe these applicants are socially underserved. the problem starts at the primary levels (elementary, ms, hs) and that is where the issue should be addressed. start teaching the young ones that they can be doctors and lawyers instead of trying to help them with this so-called equalizer of higher education.
 

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The biggest disadvantage to being an asian male is the small penis. I'm sure that whatever discrimination exists in the med school admission process pales to this much greater problem
 

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antissa said:
I'm not male, but I'm very aware of the asian-american disadvantage
My dad got his foot out the door by placing in the top 1% nationwide in China, so they sent him abroad to study and he applied to med school here as a special applicant with a foreign M.D., Masters, Ph.D, and didn't get in. When he called the interviewer to ask him why, the guy flat out told him that he was an excellent candidate, better than most of the other non-asian candidates that were accepted, but that he had been sized up against the other 20 chinese national scholars, not the general applicant pool. He took the case to the dean, and eventually won, but it clearly wasn't a victory for discrimination at large, because the other 15 rejected scholars got squat. It was just damage control because the interviewer was stupid enough to ADMIT discrimination. Needless to say, nobody would ever give you feedback thing like this anymore, but it doesn't mean that it doesn't still happen

FYI, I'm not against giving priority to underrepresented minorities. But I would be equally outraged if, for example, some guy said hmm, there are a lot of Jewish ppl in med school. We should put them in a separate pool, rank them against each other, then take only max 10, regardless of whether they are > 10 who are much more qualified than the non-Jewish candidates
It sounds like your dad is a foreign national. If so, I know that many schools do not even accept foreign med students. It's like an American trying to go to med school in Germany. The likelyhood is slim to none.

In fact, I agree with this philosophy since there is no shortage of qualified American citizens that want to go to med school, not to mention the fact that we pay taxes into the systems that fund them in the first place. And that's the exact reason why many other foreign countries (i.e. European) do not accept non-citizen applicants.
 

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it is my belief that in the sciences brains goes before body. in a field where a more skilled person can benefit society (i.e. research doctors), it is not right to take his place if a low calibre student takes his place regardless of color. I am brown but I believe this.

Very recently the president of harvard university is under intense criticism for saying that women shouldn't take places of more qualified engineers. science is meant for the progression of our world and our standards of living and mixing liberties and philosophies with sciences (which btw cannot exist without the sciences!!!), can only harm society in the long run. People have skewed the president's point calling him a sexist claiming that women think differently from men and are intellectually inferior. This was not his point. He was stating that women are raised in a way to be more maternalistic and sympathetic thus making their minds more creative and receptive to ideas. Versus men who are more aggressive and dominative, they tend to act more tenaciously thus sparking different parts of the brain (learning more towards scientific analysis and the such).

If a woman is academically acceptable for a job in the sciences then by all means give it to her. But to give a woman who is less qualified then her male counterpart (academically), is WRONG.
 

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cfdavid said:
In fact, I agree with this philosophy since there is no shortage of qualified American citizens that want to go to med school, not to mention the fact that we pay taxes into the systems that fund them in the first place. And that's the exact reason why many other foreign countries (i.e. European) do not accept non-citizen applicants.
Yeah, but the bigger issue is (reverse?) discrimination against Asian-American citizens (who also pay taxes). All citizens deserve same opportunities, and should not be differentiated by their skin color.
 

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cfdavid said:
It sounds like your dad is a foreign national. If so, I know that many schools do not even accept foreign med students. It's like an American trying to go to med school in Germany. The likelyhood is slim to none.

In fact, I agree with this philosophy since there is no shortage of qualified American citizens that want to go to med school, not to mention the fact that we pay taxes into the systems that fund them in the first place. And that's the exact reason why many other foreign countries (i.e. European) do not accept non-citizen applicants.
He was not a foreign national, he was a citizen. His status as a national scholar was how he GOT here in the first place, but his med school application came 10 years later - after he'd done a masters and ph.d here. And payed taxes all the while :rolleyes:
The point is that it was NOT an official school policy. It was a lone guy who decided arbitrarily to take only one asian applicant that year, regardless of how their application compared to the rest of the applicant pool. There was no reason for them to be in a separate pool - they did not retain foreign status, came from diverse backgrounds - some were special applicants, some had landed on scholarships like my dad, but some were traditional. The guy himself testified that there was nothing they all had in common except ethnicity. The interviewer unabashedly admitted his "selection criteria" to the Dean, who was outraged. It's reassuring that such behavior is not generally accepted, but scary that he could've gotten away with it, had he been smarter
 

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Disadvantage? Please.

I'm an Asian-American male and the only "discrimination" I've had is when it seems like every interviewer notes at the end of the interview that there's a Chinese restaurant right around the corner, like I can't eat anything else. But who cares? Just play the cards you were dealt, and accentuate the positive - what are you going to do, change your ethnicity?

I personally think affirmative action is great, and that the right-extremists are using the whole discrimination thing as a ploy to separate Asian-Americans from other minorities. As far as we've all come in race relations, there's a long way to go, as much as everyone is tired of talking about it. Affirmative action should only be used as a quick-fix for now while more systemic improvements are made to the educational system.

If you make the whole URM thing a non-factor, then everyone misses out on having a diverse population of peers to work with. I agree with the poster that stated that it should be socioeconomic status rather than race, but I think that schools already take that into consideration (which is why they always want to hear about all those life hardships).
 

masterMood

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lmao iggyboop: I'm an Asian-American male and the only "discrimination" I've had is when it seems like every interviewer notes at the end of the interview that there's a Chinese restaurant right around the corner, like I can't eat anything else.

that's pretty funny. ha ha ha ha aha

chinese food is completely different from american chinese food anyways
 

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bbaek said:
it makes no sense to me. if they want more black and hispanic doctors go to med school, they should start teaching that this is a possibility for them in preschool, elementary, m.s., and h.s. the system HAS GOT to be changed.
I think that everyone would agree that this is the ultimate goal. But you have a "Chicken or the Egg" issue here. It is hard to convince those kids that they can be a doctor when they don't see any doctors that look like them. Creating positive role models is one major goal of AA.

Most of us want the same thing, true equality as you describe. We just aren't there yet. Although AA is not perfect, it is still moving us closer to that goal.
 

cfdavid

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premedgeek said:
Yeah, but the bigger issue is (reverse?) discrimination against Asian-American citizens (who also pay taxes). All citizens deserve same opportunities, and should not be differentiated by their skin color.
I meant ALL American citizens, when I said that there are plenty qualified that desire to go to medical school.

I do not agree with reverse discrimination.