Disappointed with Western's match list

[ocwaveoc]

Yr 2005 - 11 total for surgery+anesthesiology+radiology (no derm/opthamology)
Yr 2003 - 6 or so of the above 3 specialties added together.

I'm not necessarily interested in the above specialties. But, the number of matches into the above 3 gives you a good indication of the diverse specialties a school's grad normally go into. And I know that certain people choose to go into primary care. But, I have a hard time accepting that such a minority of the above classes wanted to go into specialties other than primary care as illustrated above.

I met someone who graduated from Case Western which prompted me to check out their match list.
Anesthesiology - 12
Derm-3
Family practice - 6
Surgery (all types) - 11
Opthamology - 2
Radiology - 11
Neurology - 2
etc..

The diversity of the specialties their grads got into was much much higher than the Western grads who usually got into family practice, OB/GYN, and internal medicine. Nothing else.

Many of them got into 'Traditional rotating'. What is that?

Anyway, I'm a bit disappointed.

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[TexasTriathlete]

Traditional rotating internship is what a lot of people go into before they start their real residency. Particularly things like anesthesiology and derm.

Are you sure you know what you're getting yourself into by going to medical school? Most of your posts make it seem like you're doing this on a whim. I'm sure you're smart, but are you certain this is what you want to do? I mean really certain?

 

[superfan56]

I might get bit here, and i realize that you have lots of options w a D.O. degree, but i think this kind of shows what you're up against when you're applying to the hardest residencies with MD vs DO. Not to say you can't do it, but you do have to work harder to get there. Anyhow, Western is probably one of my top choices. Too bad they interview me in Feb!!

 

[TexasTriathlete]

Traditional rotating is very common, and often leads to a competitive residency.

 

[LauraDO]

also alot of specialities only start at PGY-2 year and you MUST do a rotating internship first. For example I want to do PM &R and you must do a internship first MD or DO

 

[cyclohexanol]

Anyway, I'm a bit disappointed.

Yeah, screw those western students for choosing things that you are disappointed in!

We really need to ramp it up and choose things we aren't necessarily interested in just to buff the match list for you guys.

 

[OnMyWayThere]

I might get bit here, and i realize that you have lots of options w a D.O. degree, but i think this kind of shows what you're up against when you're applying to the hardest residencies with MD vs DO. Not to say you can't do it, but you do have to work harder to get there. Anyhow, Western is probably one of my top choices. Too bad they interview me in Feb!!

There are still MANY D.O. schools that have a much more impressive match list than Western's.

 

[ocwaveoc]

Your responses prompt me to a few questions.
1) How exactly do the 'traditional rotations' work? Do certain programs require this rather than certain specialty? For an example specialty X at say county USC may require a 'traditional rotation' prior to the actual 3 yr residency begins while that same specialty X at Mt. Sinai may not require a 'traditional rotation' yr prior to starting the 3 yr residency?

The reason for this confusion with me is that if 'traditional rotations' are required prior to say an anesthesiology residency, why are some students listed under anesthesiology under the match list while some others are listed under the 'traditional rotations'?

2) What is a PGY-2?

3) In terms of Western students choosing things I may not like as one of you said, I highly doubt that only 11 people wanted to go into those specialties while like 2/3 of the students chose primary care.

Again, I'm not sure why there is a confusion about what I'm saying. I have no preference at this point towards any specialty....anesthesiology or primary care. I just don't want a school that appears to just graduate students that seem to only go into certain fields. It'd be nice to see schools that graduate students that go into a wide variety of specialties as I've seen with Case Western. THAT'S MY POINT. I'd like a school that gives the BEST options.

 

[TexasTriathlete]

So? These schools do not exist to put everyone into derm. You have to do it yourself, no matter where you go. Unless you're not smart enough, or too lazy.

 

[TexasTriathlete]

Dude, DO schools are typically designed to put people into primary care. Thus, people who want to go into primary care will often go to a DO school. Thus, these people often end up into primary care. If you look at the core rotations at DO schools, you see a bunch of primary care, and a bunch of electives. Its not rocket science. I don't know why people can't seem to figure this out.

 

[sparhawksd]

Just to fill you in, there were 20 students for the class of 2007 that got matched into those same categories.

6 Anesthesiology
3 Diagnostic Radiology
5 General Surgery
5 Neurology
1 Opthamology

To me if you look at the trends, a increasing number of students at Western are choosing to go into non-Primary Care areas as the years go by. Take it for what it's worth.

The diversity of the specialties that a class chooses is dependent upon many factors and it is a known fact that students at DO schools ON AVERAGE prefer to go into primary care areas rather than specialize. So, I don't see the big deal.

 

[S_Talos]

Traditional rotating internship has in the past been required for AOA-approval of your training, even for specialites. So those specialites matches that you see as the match for year 1 are probably those that went to allopathic residencies, probably grads that didn't care for AOA-approval / or got a waiver for hardship reasons. Recently changes have been made to this setup. For instance, only osteopathic dermatology residencies (and a few other residencies) chose to keep requiring traditional rotating internship. This is a stand alone year but still required for entry. I don't know if you can match to both your traditional PGY-1 and your specialty PGY-2 in the same year or not. That would be what PGY-2 means.. their second year. Other osteopathic residencies, such as neurology, diagnostic radiology, opthalmology, etc will just require a internship. So you cannot compare an allopathic school match list to a osteopathic match list, its not exactly comparable. Though I still expect that western has more primary care matches than case western.

http://www.osteopathic.org/pdf/acc_postdocintrestructurecom1students_0507.pdf

 

[StringerBell]

Oh noes!

I go to Western! And it doesn't even have the word "Case" in front of it.
Now I won't be able to specialize, especially if I pick a competitive specialty that I have no interest in!

I'm going to have to spend my career as a chiropractor who can prescribe antibiotics.

 

[S_Talos]

Thus, the match list will not be completely accurate as to the number of specialties put out.

 

[EastWestN2grt]

The diversity of the specialties that a class chooses is dependent upon many factors and it is a known fact that students at DO schools ON AVERAGE prefer to go into primary care areas rather than specialize. So, I don't see the big deal.

Lets just clarify a common misconception, and often misquoted statement. ALL Primary care fields are SPECIALTIES. Thus you must specialize to be an FP, OB/GYN, IM, etc. Which means 3+ more years. So if you go into primary care you are specializing!

 

[t-funk]

Oh noes!

I go to Western! And it doesn't even have the word "Case" in front of it.
Now I won't be able to specialize, especially if I pick a competitive specialty that I have no interest in!

I'm going to have to spend my career as a chiropractor who can prescribe antibiotics.

I got confused by this at first also. He is comparing Western's match list to Case Western's.

Another thing, I thought someone came on here a few months back and said that the AOA was trying to get rid of the traditional rotating internships and replace with just the fast-track residencies. Can someone confirm or deny this? Because that would mean that the traditional rotating internship should be relatively rare by 2012, for someone like me. Just wondering.

 

[StringerBell]

Lets just clarify a common misconception, and often misquoted statement. ALL Primary care fields are SPECIALTIES. Thus you must specialize to be an FP, OB/GYN, IM, etc. Which means 3+ more years. So if you go into primary care you are specializing!

Very well said. I'm sure there are people out there who will disagree with you, but I think you couldn't be more on-point. This is why IM is a specialty, and Cardiology considered an IM sub-specialty. Kudos to you for reminding us.

 

[JaggerPlate]

The AOA requiring an internship for certain residencies certainly does give odd looking match lists in some situations. Remember though in regards to derm (sigh ... I can't believe success of a medical school is equated to how many derm matches it has recently ...) Western has it's own derm residencies in Long Beach and I recently spoke with the admissions director who informed me that the majority of those spots go to Western students. So if that makes you feel any better ...

 

[JaggerPlate]

I got confused by this at first also. He is comparing Western's match list to Case Western's.

Another thing, I thought someone came on here a few months back and said that the AOA was trying to get rid of the traditional rotating internships and replace with just the fast-track residencies. Can someone confirm or deny this? Because that would mean that the traditional rotating internship should be relatively rare by 2012, for someone like me. Just wondering.

That would be a positive thing ... and take some recent heat off the AOA (in my opinion).

 

[StringerBell]

(sigh ... I can't believe success of a medical school is equated to how many derm matches it has recently ...)

Agreed.
But I'm not going to get on my soapbox about it.
That's ok, if everyone wants to get into Derm, then I'll get a good IM residency or Neuro residency.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Agreed.
But I'm not going to get on my soapbox about it.
That's ok, if everyone wants to get into Derm, then I'll get a good IM residency or Neuro residency.

Hahah ... I like the way you think. I haven't see you on the boards in a while Stringer ... that must mean med school is keeping you busy!!

 

[cyclohexanol]

Western has it's own derm residencies in Long Beach and I recently spoke with the admissions director who informed me that the majority of those spots go to Western students. So if that makes you feel any better ...

Just wanted to clarify a few things.

There is 1 AOA derm residency in all of california, at pacific hospital long beach. It is approved for 6 spots (total... PGY1-3 which works out to ~2 new residents/yr) but it is an UNFUNDED program that takes at MOST 2 residents per year (but seem to have only taken 1 resident for the last few years).

Also, the recent residents and the schools they came from:

Will Kirby (of Dr 90210 fame) - Nova
Tejas Desai - TCOM
Andrea Passalacqua - WesternU/COMP
Tony Nakhla - Nova
Jack Griffith - (?? - WesternU/COMP)

So as far as the majority of spot(s), ehh, not so much. But if you're a derm gunner and don't mind not getting paid while trying to pay off that rad debt, you can gun for the 1(-2) unpaid spot(s) per year.

 

[TexasTriathlete]

Holy crap. How can anyone seriously live working residency-type hours for free? Some rich derm grads of that program should get together and start a fund for it so the residents can at least get something to live on.

 

[cyclohexanol]

Holy crap. How can anyone seriously live working residency-type hours for free? Some rich derm grads of that program should get together and start a fund for it so the residents can at least get something to live on.

1) wealthy family/independently wealthy
2) military scholarship?
3) Being on Dr. 90210 pays well
4) Back-alley dermatology for mob thugs

 

[JaggerPlate]

Just wanted to clarify a few things.

There is 1 AOA derm residency in all of california, at pacific hospital long beach. It is approved for 6 spots (total... PGY1-3 which works out to ~2 new residents/yr) but it is an UNFUNDED program that takes at MOST 2 residents per year (but seem to have only taken 1 resident for the last few years).

Also, the recent residents and the schools they came from:

Will Kirby (of Dr 90210 fame) - Nova
Tejas Desai - TCOM
Andrea Passalacqua - WesternU/COMP
Tony Nakhla - Nova
Jack Griffith - (?? - WesternU/COMP)

So as far as the majority of spot(s), ehh, not so much. But if you're a derm gunner and don't mind not getting paid while trying to pay off that rad debt, you can gun for the 1(-2) unpaid spot(s) per year.

WOW!!! I had NO idea the residency wasn't funded. Jeeze ...

 

[JaggerPlate]

Ummm okay has anyone actually ever checked out the derm residencies through the AOA?? There is a ton of them that either: don't pay at all, only pay like 10-12k, or only pay in the last year. I seriously never knew this.


http://opportunities.osteopathic.or...97D4DED48FF73&jsessionid=303041358a55521606e7

 

[scpod]

...and said that the AOA was trying to get rid of the traditional rotating internships and replace with just the fast-track residencies. Can someone confirm or deny this? Because that would mean that the traditional rotating internship should be relatively rare by 2012, for someone like me. Just wondering.

The changes have been made, but it's really more a case of terminology changes. The invidual colleges (derm, em, peds, etc.) decided how they want to work their residencies. I'll quote from an ols post I had:

"In AOA residencies, you match directly into the following specialties with your first year of residency counting as an internship year:

Anesthesiology
Family Practice and FP/EM
Integrated Family Practice and Neuromusculoskeletal Medicine.
Emergency Medicine
Internal Medicine
General Surgery, Neurological Surgery, Orthopedic Surgery and Urological Surgery
Internal Medicine/Pediatrics
Obstetrics and Gynecology
Otolaryngology Facial Plastic Surgery
Pediatrics

In the following specialties, you match into the specialty and are assigned an internship to complete first, sometimes at a different institution:

Diagnostic Radiology,
Neurology
Neuromusculoskeletal Medicine/Osteopathic Manipulative Medicine
Ophthalmology
Pathology (currently no programs)
Psychiatry
Radiation Oncology
These specialties require a traditional internship year and you don't match into the specialty:

Dermatology
Occupational/Preventive Medicine
Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation
Proctology

If you do a traditional year and want to match into one of the first two groups later, you may or may not be given credit for your intership year depending on the specialty college.

Other specialties require more, like Cardiology or Gastroenterology, for instance, that require a fellowship after you've completed internal medicine. If you look at the Cardiology listings you will note that they begin in post graduate year 4."

I listed the only ones which will now "require" a traditional in bold. Hope that helps.

 

[cyclohexanol]

Ummm okay has anyone actually ever checked out the derm residencies through the AOA?? There is a ton of them that either: don't pay at all, only pay like 10-12k, or only pay in the last year. I seriously never knew this.


http://opportunities.osteopathic.or...97D4DED48FF73&jsessionid=303041358a55521606e7

Not interested in derm, so never bothered to really look at the rest, but the fact that they are poorly funded or completely unfunded is not surprising.

Go go gadget AOA.

BTW, the link you pasted seems to search for EM programs.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Not interested in derm, so never bothered to really look at the rest, but the fact that they are poorly funded or completely unfunded is not surprising.

Go go gadget AOA.

BTW, the link you pasted seems to search for EM programs.

Arghhh sorry. I was trying to look through other AOA residencies to see if derm was the exception, not the norm (for unfunded residencies). I think this is the first time I have ever really just flat out been shocked by the AOA ... that is just absurd. Multiple residencies where derm residents aren't paid for 3 years????? I mean, come on? Very suprizing. Who applies to these programs (besides big brother 2 winners with an extra 500k in their pockets)???

 

[Toohotinvegas33]

Derm is a very hard residency to put together, who would want to teach it and work twice as hard and make half as much? Would you rather have some derm residencies which could get funding some day or none at all. Georgetown and GWU both closed their derm residencies last year. Besides you could probably moonlight after your first year to make some side dough.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Derm is a very hard residency to put together, who would want to teach it and work twice as hard and make half as much? Would you rather have some derm residencies which cud get funding some day or none at all. Georgetown and GWU both closed their derm residencies last year. Besides you could probably moonlight after your first year to make some side dough.

You make a good point ...

 

[cyclohexanol]

Besides you could probably moonlight after your first year to make some side dough.

Only if:
1) Your program allows it
Caveat: technically possible to do even if your program doesn't allow it, but who wants to risk them finding out?

2) You live in a state where you can get your license after 1 year, not all states are like that. Luckily, california is. So for this particular derm residency, it could work.

 

[Toohotinvegas33]

Only if:
1) Your program allows it
Caveat: technically possible to do even if your program doesn't allow it, but who wants to risk them finding out?
.

Derm programs have a rep for not breaking 50 or so hours a week, so as long as you stay under 80 total you should be ok, besides they arent paying you so why would they care.

 

[TexasTriathlete]

Not interested in derm, so never bothered to really look at the rest, but the fact that they are poorly funded or completely unfunded is not surprising.

Go go gadget AOA.

BTW, the link you pasted seems to search for EM programs.

You obviously didn't get the memo posted in the pre-allo forum: everybody is interested in derm, and everyone who does not match derm is a failure, because they all tried to match derm.

 

[cyclohexanol]

Derm programs have a rep for not breaking 50 or so hours a week, so as long as you stay under 80 total you should be ok, besides they arent paying you so why would they care.

Some programs just don't want you working other places regardless of time? (Read: jerks)

 

[cyclohexanol]

You obviously didn't get the memo posted in the pre-allo forum: everybody is interested in derm, and everyone who does not match derm is a failure, because they all tried to match derm.

Yeah. I got the memo, and I understand the policy, and the problem is that I just forgot this one time, and I've already taken care of it.

These unfunded derm programs have problems with their TPS reports.

 

[StringerBell]

Hahah ... I like the way you think. I haven't see you on the boards in a while Stringer ... that must mean med school is keeping you busy!!

Just a little bit...just a little bit.