Discrimination against DOs alive and well when applying for away rotations

[sylvanthus]

I am applying for away rotations in EM and noticing some frustrations coming from a DO school. For instance, I was told since I am a DO I need to include my class rank...Also, some programs only take 1 DO per month even though they have 16 spots per month. Is this **** common or am I looking at bad programs for EM?

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[DarkHorizon]

Some DO programs want to know your class rank and want the official COMLEX transcript... I know one program that requires you to be in upper half of your class with a COMLEX of 500 unless of course you are from the school that program is affiliated with.

BTW this is just to set up an elective rotation

 

[sylvanthus]

Im not too worried about my stats, Im sitting pretty for most of it, but I am just amazed this **** is going on. Is this true for residencies also? Am I going to hear that programs only take 1 DO out of 8 slots? Here I thought we would be all judged on our merits, not whether or not we're an MD or DO.

 

[thepoopologist]

fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck

 

[sylvanthus]

Well, word to the wise, DO discrimination is still out there, apply to **** tons of programs to counteract this.

 

[DocEspana]

Well, word to the wise, DO discrimination is still out there, apply to **** tons of programs to counteract this.

This appears to not be the case in new york city hospitals . people seem to have no trouble getting rotations at hospitals in westchester queens brooklyn and manhattan as long as they apply early. I shouldn't say no problems, but no problems I've heard of or experience among my friends nd upperclassman before me. so elective rotations don't seem to be a problem here. residencies are different matter

 

[AlbertVOligh]

Can anybody verify this as being the case for other specialties besides EM? Is it really that hard to get rotations as a DO in the MD world?

 

[dav86]

Can anybody verify this as being the case for other specialties besides EM? Is it really that hard to get rotations as a DO in the MD world?

It really depends on the speciality and area of the country. I am applying EM in the midwest. There are definitely differences between programs. There are programs in Chicago that are almost half DOs and others that have taken one DO in the past 20 years. Places in Ohio and Michigan are over half DOs while other places in the same states have no DOs. I think you gotta take a look at the residency classes and see how many DOs they take. I am sure their auditions are made up of similar percentages as their residency classes. With that being said, I have gotten a couple of interviews and know of others at my school who are applying EM who got interviews at places with no DOs, so its possible, but use some common sense. If you get an interview or do an audition at a place that has taken 1 DO in the last six residency classes don't count on going on there. Its possible, but very unlikely. I have heard of MD EM places reserving only 1-3 spots for DOs, but have not been told that by the programs. DOs are still "discriminated" against if thats what you want to call it, but I think as long as we shut out MDs from our residencies the discrimination will continue.

As for other specialities, the primary care ones are more open to DOs than the ROAD specialities. But the top residencies in any speciality will be competitive for either MD or DO. Just gotta do some research, no one on here will have an absolute answer.

My advice for EM as a DO is do as well as you can one both USMLE 1 and 2. Do as well as you can on your third year rotations, and kill your EM rotations. Get at least 2 SLORs in by early Oct and pray. EM is becoming crazy and EM rotation grades are the most important. Difference between an honors and a HP can be huge, so try to do as well as you can. Good Luck

 

[desijigga]

Alot of places have to reserve room for their own students and have contracts with other MD schools or DO schools to take their students first then outside. Some places require students to have taken usmle or have cut off score to rotate, because they don't want you to come rotate and waste your time or theirs. As when you apply they reject you right away because you never had a usmle score or didn't meet their cut off.

Don't take it personally its just their policy, EM by far is the most DO friendly field. Surgery is more towards the DO bias end. IM i would say is in between, some have DOs some don't.

Good advice by Dav86, do the best on your step 1 and 2. Rotate at places you think you want to go to, and get good letters. I applied to Allo IM this year with both Usmle step 1 and Step 2, and have gotten great interviews from places that I thought they will never take DOs. And also been rejected from places where I thought I was competitive at. Its just a crap shoot this whole process.

I am not sure if this year is an aberration or IM just got a whole lot harder to get into, but it seems like every place I interviewed all the other candidates had Step 1 >250 or AOA lol or they were just lying. It be nice to see the nrmp match stats when they come out as most people on the IM forums are complaining they had not heard from mid-tier programs they thought they will def get interviews from. Did other specialties people applied to have a similar feeling?

 

[RxSeDO]

Can anybody verify this as being the case for other specialties besides EM? Is it really that hard to get rotations as a DO in the MD world?

This is surprising. I found no such discrimination in case of IM atleast, in fact a lot of places were very welcoming... maybe I just had a good experience.

 

[koennen]

... but I think as long as we shut out MDs from our residencies the discrimination will continue.

You don't really believe that is why MD programs discriminate against DOs, do you??

 

[dav86]

You don't really believe that is why MD programs discriminate against DOs, do you??

I don't think its the only reason, but I think it contributes to some of the discrimination. If you don't think program directors are aware of this then I think you are being a little naive.

 

[River Rat]

meh, it's the nature of being a DO. asking for class rank isn't even that bad. UC-Denver asks DO and IMG's to pay an additional 4000$ application fee on top of the 150$ish they get from M.D students per 4 week rotation periods. Discrimination exists everywhere, just get your ducks lined up in a row so you have everything ready to rock and roll. Cast a wide net, because for the most part, there will be someone out there that just wants a good worker, MD or not.

 

[the alchemist]

meh, it's the nature of being a DO. asking for class rank isn't even that bad. UC-Denver asks DO and IMG's to pay an additional 4000$ application fee on top of the 150$ish they get from M.D students per 4 week rotation periods. Discrimination exists everywhere, just get your ducks lined up in a row so you have everything ready to rock and roll. Cast a wide net, because for the most part, there will be someone out there that just wants a good worker, MD or not.

Last year when I rotated at MD top tier schools and government sites, I was asked for transcript and for one, a personal statement and 2 LORs but not b/c I was a DO. They asked that of anyone who applied to rotate at those places and one government site was very frank about the fact that they only take "MD PhD" types (or DO PhD), not that you had to be one but have the research background of one. I didn't apply anywhere that had different requirements for DO vs MD but do know that they exist. Some sites even were upfront that they don't take Caribbean AMGs. They only also accepted FMGs if they met all the requirements for AMGs plus paid a large externship tuition (but this is common I hear).

Most important, work hard, do as well as you can in school, get some great LORs, and rock your boards. Take USMLEs early (I got screwed b/c I didn't have any USMLE scores when I applied so some schools considered my application "incomplete" so my app was put "on hold" even though I've passed all 3 COMLEX) so that scores are in when you apply (at least Step 1). Some programs won't look at you at all b/c you're DO so its important to make some calls ahead of time to figure out if any that you're interested in are like that so as to not apply and waste your money. Its not worth getting upset that they don't accept DOs or that we have to go an extra step to apply (for rotations or residency), that's just how it is. You wouldn't want to be at a program where they look at DOs like that anyways.

Its getting much worse for Carib AMGs and really bad for FMGs. If you're considering ACMGE (ie - MD) residency or fellowship in the future, go ACGME from the beginning (internship) so as to avoid any of the issues that may come up with the new ACGME proposal that will require you (if it goes through) starting in 2014 and 2015 to have done an ACGME/Canadian internship or residency to enter ACGME residencies and fellowships, respectively. If you're in one of the four DO internship required states (PA, FL, MI, OK), look into Resolution 42 early. But, yeah, as River Rat said, there are more forward thinking programs that won't care what you are, just that you're a great fit for their program. That's the type of place to be.

 

[Birdeee]

$4000 or $400?

 

[River Rat]

i didn't make a typo. 4000$. four thousand. funny right?

 

[ShyRem]

Well, CU (coloradans refer to University of Colorado as CU) has a number of oddities with their med school. Not all bad, mind you, just... more haughty than anything. I suppose it comes from being the only med school for a long time serving a large area.

I hear the rationale for the outrageous fee for a rotation has to do with spots available - they want their spots for their students. And if you want to take one of those, they're going to make you pay through the nose for it. As for why DOs pay more, they won't say. It will be interesting to see what they do with RVU as time goes by.

 

[River Rat]

Well, CU (coloradans refer to University of Colorado as CU) has a number of oddities with their med school. Not all bad, mind you, just... more haughty than anything. I suppose it comes from being the only med school for a long time serving a large area.

I hear the rationale for the outrageous fee for a rotation has to do with spots available - they want their spots for their students. And if you want to take one of those, they're going to make you pay through the nose for it. As for why DOs pay more, they won't say. It will be interesting to see what they do with RVU as time goes by.

they charge outside-MD applicants the same fee that they charge CU applicants. i'm not as offended by this whole posturing as I am amused by it. I think when questioned, the head honcho responded (from what I read somewhere) "at least we don't charge a 10k deposit to secure a spot like some startup d.o. school."

 

[Shinken]

Alot of places have to reserve room for their own students and have contracts with other MD schools or DO schools to take their students first then outside.

Don't take it personally its just their policy, EM by far is the most DO friendly field. Surgery is more towards the DO bias end. IM i would say is in between, some have DOs some don't.

This is an accurate reply. You'll find out that as a student looking for out rotations, you will find places that will not take you not because "you're one of 'em silly osteopaths" but because of contractual or other reasons. There are many programs out there that will not accept DO student out rotation applications but will gladly accept DO residency applications.

Don't be discouraged. The so-called DO discrimination is not as real as you think, except in SDN-land.

 

[TPBC]

Speaking of DO discrimination, I'm applying to residencies this season and decided to apply to an allo family medicine residency in the southeast. This one is important to me because it is very close to my house, unopposed, and a fairly good program. After submitting my ERAS app., they responded that I was turned down because I haven't completed an osteopathic internship(??!!?). Their reasoning was that I couldn't get licensed without doing so. I had our clinical advisor contact the PD and inform him that there was no licensing problem with DOs and allo residencies, however, the PD chose to ignore it and keep the policy. An interesting point is that about 20% of the residents in this program are Caribbean or other foreign trained. I guess they just dislike DOs.

 

[Total180]

Speaking of DO discrimination, I'm applying to residencies this season and decided to apply to an allo family medicine residency in the southeast. This one is important to me because it is very close to my house, unopposed, and a fairly good program. After submitting my ERAS app., they responded that I was turned down because I haven't completed an osteopathic internship(??!!?). Their reasoning was that I couldn't get licensed without doing so. I had our clinical advisor contact the PD and inform him that there was no licensing problem with DOs and allo residencies, however, the PD chose to ignore it and keep the policy. An interesting point is that about 20% of the residents in this program are Caribbean or other foreign trained. I guess they just dislike DOs.

I'm hoping that with DCOM and VCOM-CC graduating students in the southeast, more of the programs in this area will become familiar with DOs. The southeast is generally not very informed when it comes to Osteopathic Medicine, but I think it will get better in the future.

 

[DrWBD]

Im not too worried about my stats, Im sitting pretty for most of it, but I am just amazed this **** is going on. I.

When you realize this guy exists, and makes smart DOs look bad, you start to understand why discrimination still exists.

 

[DrCalculi]

When you realize this guy exists.

I'm having trouble understanding how one can fail 7 times in "management, health promotion/disease prevention & general osteopathic medicine." I think he's a troll.

 

[Deepa100]

I remember I got some very rude comments and got yelled at when I posted some questions about this topic back in 2008. Nothing wrong with knowing what you are getting into before applying to DO schools.

 

[Mbeas]

An interesting point is that about 20% of the residents in this program are Caribbean or other foreign trained. I guess they just dislike DOs.

I knew I shoulda gone to SGU...****

 

[p1acebo]

I remember I got some very rude comments and got yelled at when I posted some questions about this topic back in 2008. Nothing wrong with knowing what you are getting into before applying to DO schools.

In addition, there is nothing wrong with people expressing their opinions on SDN over the internet. Gotta take what people say with a grain of salt, and it is always nice not to have paper thin skin.

 

[biosynthetic78]

Is there a reason that you wouldn't just apply to DO EM programs? I'm sure some say one residency is better than others, but I'm sure that as long as your in a busy place your going to get good training anywhere you go. And lets be honest here...when was the last time you asked your doctor where he/she went to school or did residency? Most patients have no clue where their doctors went to school and don't care either. All they want is a competent doctor that does more listening than talking.

 

[ensuii]

Is there a reason that you wouldn't just apply to DO EM programs? I'm sure some say one residency is better than others, but I'm sure that as long as your in a busy place your going to get good training anywhere you go. And lets be honest here...when was the last time you asked your doctor where he/she went to school or did residency? Most patients have no clue where their doctors went to school and don't care either. All they want is a competent doctor that does more listening than talking.

All DO EM programs are 4 years whereas most MD EM programs are 3 years.

 

[DocEspana]

All DO EM programs are 4 years whereas most MD EM programs are 3 years.

most MD EM programs are 4 years as well, and its generally suggested that you do the 4 year allopathic EM programs over the 3 year ones unless you want to do some EM fellowship/subspecialty (aka tack on more years anyway). Because of how EM actually works, that subspecialty option is actually not as popular as the "fellowship" route would be for other fields. (can you tell I'm regurgitating the mantra and I'm not 100% sure as of why? Cause I am. But I've heard it enough times in person and on here that I'll pass it on as fact)

 

[DuxburyPembroke]

Is there a reason that you wouldn't just apply to DO EM programs? I'm sure some say one residency is better than others, but I'm sure that as long as your in a busy place your going to get good training anywhere you go. And lets be honest here...when was the last time you asked your doctor where he/she went to school or did residency? Most patients have no clue where their doctors went to school and don't care either. All they want is a competent doctor that does more listening than talking.

Not to stray too far from the OP or start a flame war, but after doing a couple of rotations in places with truly awful DO residencies, I would be hard-pressed to choose a doctor or hire a doctor who did an AOA residency. I have rotated with great DO's in ACGME residencies, and I am sure there are some great AOA residencies and some ACGME residencies that suck, but I am sure that you will not get good training wherever you go.

 

[ensuii]

most MD EM programs are 4 years as well, and its generally suggested that you do the 4 year allopathic EM programs over the 3 year ones unless you want to do some EM fellowship/subspecialty (aka tack on more years anyway). Because of how EM actually works, that subspecialty option is actually not as popular as the "fellowship" route would be for other fields. (can you tell I'm regurgitating the mantra and I'm not 100% sure as of why? Cause I am. But I've heard it enough times in person and on here that I'll pass it on as fact)

https://freida.ama-assn.org/Freida/user/programSearchSubmitDispatch.do

Do a "search plus" for EM programs so you can see the year requirements. I don't have time right now to sit through and count how many are 4yrs versus 3yrs but I think by eyeballing it about 1/3 are 4 years (?).

 

[Dissected]

most MD EM programs are 4 years as well, and its generally suggested that you do the 4 year allopathic EM programs over the 3 year ones unless you want to do some EM fellowship/subspecialty (aka tack on more years anyway). Because of how EM actually works, that subspecialty option is actually not as popular as the "fellowship" route would be for other fields. (can you tell I'm regurgitating the mantra and I'm not 100% sure as of why? Cause I am. But I've heard it enough times in person and on here that I'll pass it on as fact)

Most ACGME EM programs are 3 years...by an overwhelming majority actually.

Most of the 4 year programs are on the coasts.

 

[DocEspana]

https://freida.ama-assn.org/Freida/user/programSearchSubmitDispatch.do

Do a "search plus" for EM programs so you can see the year requirements. I don't have time right now to sit through and count how many are 4yrs versus 3yrs but I think by eyeballing it about 1/3 are 4 years (?).

Yea. Did count it. It's about a 60-40 split, actuallu slightly more, in favor of 3 year programs. My bad.

 

[bth7]

I am applying for away rotations in EM and noticing some frustrations coming from a DO school. For instance, I was told since I am a DO I need to include my class rank...Also, some programs only take 1 DO per month even though they have 16 spots per month. Is this **** common or am I looking at bad programs for EM?

Very, very common.