Disenchanted MS III Advice/ Kind Words Please

[SAF12]

Hey so my girlfriend is a medical student at a community hospital doing her 3rd year IM rotation. They expect her to be nurse ( take urine, blood, administer drugs), nurse aid (help change bed sheets), and intern (check vitals, blood levels and write notes/put in orders to attending) all at once because of how incredibly understaffed they are. Needless to say she’s hating it and becoming pretty disenchanted with medicine which he used to have so much enthusiasm for. Every day the attending lines up herself and other students and screams at them about all the things they are doing wrong even going as far as making the students talk bad about each other. She is even starting to think she isn’t smart enough because of the constant barrage of insult on a daily basis even though she is one of the smartest people I’ve ever met (step1: 266). If anyone could lend some advice, give their experience, or even just give some kind words I know it would make her feel so much better when I compile them and show it to her. I know it is easy to say negative things when anonymous on the internet but I ask we keep it only positive and constructive and if you really have nothing positive to say just pretend like you never read this. Thank You in advance SDN members this website has been a huge help throughout my medical career.

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[deleted480308]

is she a US student doing a US rotation?

 

[SAF12]

She is Canadian doing a U.S. Rotation.

 

[deleted480308]

If she had been in a carib school my advice might have been different. As for all the chores, she needs to get over it...our job is to show up and do what we're told. If she is literally, not figuratively, lined up and yelled at each morning she should speak to her school's clinical coordinator as that's out of line

 

[SAF12]

. I know it is easy to say negative things when anonymous on the internet but I ask we keep it only positive and constructive and if you really have nothing positive to say just pretend like you never read this. Thank You in advance SDN members this website has been a huge help throughout my medical career.

Anyone can give something more positive or constructive than Get over it?

 

[Psai]

What do you want us to say? You're a third year medical student too. You know that you keep your head down, see patients, write your notes and do the other things they tell you to do. Then you choose your field so that there's a ton of things that you will never do again for the rest of your life.

 

[hmockingbird]

While this might be more responsibility than at other schools, a lot of this is good clinical experience. Learning how to check vitals and draw blood is good practice. Writing notes is one of the basic things you need to learn in 3rd year IMO. Writing orders might be extra, but also good practice and we can't start doing that until 4th year, but sometimes I wish we could. The rest might be scut work but IMO you can always expect scut work on some rotations. Is it fair? Maybe not but you gotta just deal with it until you are the one in charge.

The attending's behavior does seem out of line though and I would report that to the clinical coordinator, especially since that seems to be the root of your girlfriend's current insecurity and hate for the rotation. I was at a site where I was constantly getting rude/inappropriate comments and questions and being made fun of (not from patients, from non-doctor employees), and on top of being a "learner" and trying to figure out all the things I need to know, it was really hard to get through. Luckily it only lasted two weeks because my clerkship director was helpful in terms of giving me suggestions for how to respond professionally (it was hard for me to know what was "too much" because we are on the bottom of the totem pole and I didn't want to get in trouble for a professionalism violation), but wasn't willing to step in. I doubt she would get very far complaining about the rest though. Changing bed sheets does seem to be a little much to me but if they are that understaffed then I guess you do what you gotta do...

 

[J ROD]

I don't think she should be changing bed sheets and some of the other stuff like that. But overall, just do what they say unless it is illegal or will hurt a patient. 3rd year can be hell at times.

Hopefully, she will get off this service soon.

 

[Psai]

I don't think she should be changing bed sheets and some of the other stuff like that. But overall, just do what they say unless it is illegal or will hurt a patient. 3rd year can be hell at times.

Hopefully, she will get off this service soon.

Yup, I think that changing bed sheets is definitely not the role of a medical student but all of the other things are reasonable things to learn how to do as long as they aren't interfering with the things that medical students actually need to know

 

[bluv1212]

3rd year is hell at times. I get it too. We've all been through it. Chin up and push through. The **** will relent.

 

[notbobtrustme]

Anyone can give something more positive or constructive than Get over it?

3rd year is literally just that. You are nothing, you are less than nothing. No one at the hospital wants you there; you are so worthless to the system that you have to pay for the privilege to be there. Even the janitor is wanted by the hospital system.

You are the equivalent of an 18th century orphan. Speak when spoken to. Avoid upsetting anyone important. Do as you're told. The last thing you want on your evaluations/Dean's letter is the kiss of death aka "not a team player".

If you get treated better than this, your attendings/residents are saints. 3rd year is more about seeing how the sausage is made than learning how to make sausage. For example, you think anything you learn in your 6 weeks on ob/gyn matters at all? You aren't there to learn ob/gyn (or surgery or medicine or w/e), you are there to learn how ob/gyn works in the whole medical system. Residency is where you learn to be a doctor.

 

[Psai]

3rd year is literally just that. You are nothing, you are less than nothing. No one at the hospital wants you there; you are so worthless to the system that you have to pay for the privilege to be there. Even the janitor is wanted by the hospital system.

You are the equivalent of an 18th century orphan. Speak when spoken to. Avoid upsetting anyone important. Do as you're told. The last thing you want on your evaluations/Dean's letter is the kiss of death aka "not a team player".

If you get treated better than this, your attendings/residents are saints. 3rd year is more about seeing how the sausage is made than learning how to make sausage. For example, you think anything you learn in your 6 weeks on ob/gyn matters at all? You aren't there to learn ob/gyn (or surgery or medicine or w/e), you are there to learn how ob/gyn works in the whole medical system. Residency is where you learn to be a doctor.

At least those orphans got fed
I'm happy if I get free coffee every once in a while

 

[giantswing]

Sounds like a bad rotation.

Also, is it the nurses telling her to change sheets ect or is it a resident or an attending? Cuz if its a nurse having her do nurse stuff tell her to tell them to go burn. But if its a resident you gotta do it.

 

[shoal]

Dont think this necessarily gets any better. As a resident i change sheets frequently, even cleaned up crap off a patient/floor. You gotta do what you gotta do. Learning to be a team player to treat patients is what you gotta do sometimes even if its not your job.

Sent from my LG-D801 using Tapatalk

 

[SAF12]

I appreciate it guys its not so much the work. As bad as it is she actually liked it the first week when the attending was playing nice. As time went on just about everyone gave her crap from the attending, Pas, and nurses. They often will yell at her for things she had no idea she needed to do and when she asks for help they'll just ignore her or yell at her for even asking. The hospital is aweful has no residents and the attending will sometimes see his patients for no more than a few minutes a day with the rest of the care given to my girlfriend who feels terrified shell mess up because she simply doesn't have the training for it. She is on the unit with a lot of undocumented or poor patients which is maybe why the level of care is so bad.The school is aware but very slow to act. That's why I'm asking solely for encouraging words to get her through.

 

[deleted480308]

I appreciate it guys its not so much the work. As bad as it is she actually liked it the first week when the attending was playing nice. As time went on just about everyone gave her crap from the attending, Pas, and nurses. They often will yell at her for things she had no idea she needed to do and when she asks for help they'll just ignore her or yell at her for even asking. The hospital is aweful has no residents and the attending will sometimes see his patients for no more than a few minutes a day with the rest of the care given to my girlfriend who feels terrified shell mess up because she simply doesn't have the training for it. She is on the unit with a lot of undocumented or poor patients which is maybe why the level of care is so bad.The school is aware but very slow to act. That's why I'm asking solely for encouraging words to get her through.

The encouragement is she has to endure...being yelled at can't kill her and she will rotate out eventually. Keep your head down and keep moving

 

[Psai]

I appreciate it guys its not so much the work. As bad as it is she actually liked it the first week when the attending was playing nice. As time went on just about everyone gave her crap from the attending, Pas, and nurses. They often will yell at her for things she had no idea she needed to do and when she asks for help they'll just ignore her or yell at her for even asking. The hospital is aweful has no residents and the attending will sometimes see his patients for no more than a few minutes a day with the rest of the care given to my girlfriend who feels terrified shell mess up because she simply doesn't have the training for it. She is on the unit with a lot of undocumented or poor patients which is maybe why the level of care is so bad.The school is aware but very slow to act. That's why I'm asking solely for encouraging words to get her through.

Sounds like third year to me

 

[IwannabeDrP]

I appreciate it guys its not so much the work. As bad as it is she actually liked it the first week when the attending was playing nice. As time went on just about everyone gave her crap from the attending, Pas, and nurses. They often will yell at her for things she had no idea she needed to do and when she asks for help they'll just ignore her or yell at her for even asking. The hospital is aweful has no residents and the attending will sometimes see his patients for no more than a few minutes a day with the rest of the care given to my girlfriend who feels terrified shell mess up because she simply doesn't have the training for it. She is on the unit with a lot of undocumented or poor patients which is maybe why the level of care is so bad.The school is aware but very slow to act. That's why I'm asking solely for encouraging words to get her through.

This comment is absurd. Either she is embellishing her role to you or there is some serious violations in patient care going on. If she is in fact managing patients throughout the day (although I doubt she is), it should be reported to the dean's office of the medical school (not just the coordinator).

As for the 3rd year, ya it is miserable intermittently (mostly bc of the desire to get the grades, which determine AOA at my school, which delineates which programs are available to you) but time and time again, I had awesome residents and attendings who went out of their way to teach / provide meaningful feedback. It's important to make an early, good impression after which point I found the residents and attendings were more willing to invest in my education.

 

[Daiphon]

Yup, I think that changing bed sheets is definitely not the role of a medical student but all of the other things are reasonable things to learn how to do as long as they aren't interfering with the things that medical students actually need to know

Can't speak to behavior on the wards, and some of this attending's behavior sounds malignant, for sure...

...but down in my ED, I still change bed linens as needed, check vitals as needed, do lines as needed, etc. Whatever it takes to keep the department running smoothly. I personally don't think any job is beneath me, and caution against developing this type of mindset.

It may not be "your job" per se, but it still is part of patient care and thus *is* something students need to know; if nothing else, understanding the roles of others & showing a willingness to get dirty will get you far in the rest of your career.

Just my $0.02,
-d

 

[WingedOx]

Get a complaint about the rotation to her dean in writing now. Prior to the end of the rotation. If they're having her do things as ridiculous as change bedsheets, then they'll have no problem giving her a bad eval. Best to have something in writing ahead of time if sht hits the fan.

After that, go back and deal with the bullsht.

 

[Psai]

Can't speak to behavior on the wards, and some of this attending's behavior sounds malignant, for sure...

...but down in my ED, I still change bed linens as needed, check vitals as needed, do lines as needed, etc. Whatever it takes to keep the department running smoothly. I personally don't think any job is beneath me, and caution against developing this type of mindset.

It may not be "your job" per se, but it still is part of patient care and thus *is* something students need to know; if nothing else, understanding the roles of others & showing a willingness to get dirty will get you far in the rest of your career.

Just my $0.02,
-d

The difference is that it's your department and you get paid to do it. It's not about a job being beneath you but that you're paying a lot of money to learn how to be a doctor and changing linens not only does not contribute to your education, but takes valuable time away from things that do. It takes absolutely no thinking or training and is therefore a waste of time. Or do you believe that medical students should be mopping the floors and cleaning bed pans as well?

 

[Daiphon]

The difference is that it's your department and you get paid to do it. It's not about a job being beneath you but that you're paying a lot of money to learn how to be a doctor and changing linens not only does not contribute to your education, but takes valuable time away from things that do. It takes absolutely no thinking or training and is therefore a waste of time. Or do you believe that medical students should be mopping the floors and cleaning bed pans as well?

It is my department, and I'm not paid to do it - doing these things takes me away from direct care. However, indirectly facilitates care as it allows the flow to continue.

And the spice must flow.

I think that anyone, not just students but also residents/fellows/attendings ought do these things if noone else is available. If for no other reason than common courtesy to the patient. I've been doing things like this since M2, and it's never taken away from my education or learning - in fact, it's helped as others recognized I was trying to help the service in any way possible.

I realize I'm in the minority here, and making anyone do these things simply out of spite and megalomania is wrong; but, believing any aspect of patient care is beneath you is petty and immature.

When all is said & done, and you're an attending, you will set the example for your practice... if you have an extra minute to help a patient, and thereby help your nurse/tech/MA/whatever, then you're investing that time in them in the guise of helping the patient.

-d

PS - no, I don't recommend mopping. But, at least cover up the puke/piss/blood/whatever with something. Or is getting a Chux or sheet out of a cabinet beneath you as well?

 

[gators21]

The difference is that it's your department and you get paid to do it. It's not about a job being beneath you but that you're paying a lot of money to learn how to be a doctor and changing linens not only does not contribute to your education, but takes valuable time away from things that do. It takes absolutely no thinking or training and is therefore a waste of time. Or do you believe that medical students should be mopping the floors and cleaning bed pans as well?

This has got to be the dumbest thing I hear my classmates constantly complain about. Let's get one thing straight. You are not paying to learn, or in essence be taught, to be a doctor. You are paying for the right to EARN the degree. Those two things have very, very different meanings. The sooner people realize that, the more you get out of rotations.

 

[BDUS]

As other posters have said think of it as good experience. At the end of the day, you are charge of the patient and it's good to know how to do things that the patient needs. At times/emergent situations when the nurses are busy you as the doctor may need to step in and put in an IV or draw blood, push the patient to CT etc. In my intern year in pediatrics, nurses who were working as pediatric nurses longer than I had been alive would come to me when they didn't get the IV in. "Doctor, can you put in the IV I didn't get it".

 

[Psai]

This has got to be the dumbest thing I hear my classmates constantly complain about. Let's get one thing straight. You are not paying to learn, or in essence be taught, to be a doctor. You are paying for the right to EARN the degree. Those two things have very, very different meanings. The sooner people realize that, the more you get out of rotations.

If your medical school isn't teaching you how to be a doctor, you need to ask for a refund. Pretty sure they aren't teaching you the basics of how to take a history and do a physical in residency

 

[Daiphon]

That's different than systematically expecting medical students to do basic nursing and tech tasks. That's scut or, to call a spade a spade, abuse.

I don't disagree, like I said - megalomania breeds problems and a systematic approach to belittling anyone is indeed abusive and ought be reported.

The issue is your tone, and the fact that it came across as implying that all tasks other than "doctoring" were beneath you.

While I'll concede that I may have misconstrued your remarks and apologize for such, I stand by my statement that as the captain of the ship, *no* task is beneath you should it need doing and it is within your ability to do.

-d

 

[rbnsafsadgf]

It sounds like the rotation could use some improvement but on the plus side there is a lot of autonomy. I think the prespective from the experienced posters helps to frame the rotation and put it into a larger context.

I will also bring up the idea that as a Canadian she might have higher expectations of what is considered polite. I know this is a point of friction is my mixed American-Canadian household.

 

[Psai]

I don't disagree, like I said - megalomania breeds problems and a systematic approach to belittling anyone is indeed abusive and ought be reported.

The issue is your tone, and the fact that it came across as implying that all tasks other than "doctoring" were beneath you.

While I'll concede that I may have misconstrued your remarks and apologize for such, I stand by my statement that as the captain of the ship, *no* task is beneath you should it need doing and it is within your ability to do.

-d

That's all good and well when you're the captain but a third mate should be standing watch and managing lifesaving equipment, not scrubbing the decks

 

[Akali]

If it's as bad as you say and hurting her as much as you say then I'd suggest you read the school's policies. A US schools is most likely going to have some kind of method in place to report student abuse. And/or contact the clerkship director (anonymous email or whatever if you'd prefer).

Personally though, I would just suck it up. I feel like you and/or your girlfriend are likely over exaggerating. Or maybe I'm wrong and that rotation is actually toxic as all hell and full to the brim of ridiculous scut work.

 

[Top Gun]

If she had been in a carib school my advice might have been different. As for all the chores, she needs to get over it...our job is to show up and do what we're told. If she is literally, not figuratively, lined up and yelled at each morning she should speak to her school's clinical coordinator as that's out of line

Now just a minute. While drawing labs is not an unreasonable expectation, nor is writing progress notes/putting in orders, it is not a med student's job to do stuff like change bedsheets. That's what nurse's aides/volunteers are for. Nor is it reasonable for her and the other students to be lined up and screamed at each morning. It sounds to me like she got a raw deal in terms of clinical placement.

 

[deleted480308]

Now just a minute. While drawing labs is not an unreasonable expectation, nor is writing progress notes/putting in orders, it is not a med student's job to do stuff like change bedsheets. That's what nurse's aides/volunteers are for. Nor is it reasonable for her and the other students to be lined up and screamed at each morning. It sounds to me like she got a raw deal in terms of clinical placement.

It sounds to me like she's lying about the "lined up and screamed at" and her job really is to do whatever she's told until her school tells her different

 

[cbrons]

This has got to be the dumbest thing I hear my classmates constantly complain about. Let's get one thing straight. You are not paying to learn, or in essence be taught, to be a doctor. You are paying for the right to EARN the degree. Those two things have very, very different meanings. The sooner people realize that, the more you get out of rotations.

You are paying them to teach you how to be a doctor. It is very clear that is the case, because on my bill it says "tuition - $xx,000.00. (and it is a huge sum).

tu·i·tion
to͞oˈiSH(ə)n/
noun
noun: tuition; plural noun: tuitions
North American
a sum of money charged for teaching or instruction by a school, college, or university.
"I'm not paying next year's tuition"
synonyms: fees, charges, bill
"students go broke paying the increased tuition"

 

[Jeffrety]

Report this behavior to the preceptor or whoever handles rotations at your school. Dont listen to the people who want to justify the doc's behavior. Being abused and humiliated doesn't aid in learning.

 

[Psai]

Report this behavior to the preceptor or whoever handles rotations at your school. Dont listen to the people who want to justify the doc's behavior. Being abused and humiliated doesn't aid in learning.

so far i've found that people really don't give a damn about students unless it's something that they can be sued for like sexual harrassment

 

[gators21]

You are paying them to teach you how to be a doctor. It is very clear that is the case, because on my bill it says "tuition - $xx,000.00. (and it is a huge sum).

tu·i·tion
to͞oˈiSH(ə)n/
noun
noun: tuition; plural noun: tuitions
North American
a sum of money charged for teaching or instruction by a school, college, or university.
"I'm not paying next year's tuition"
synonyms: fees, charges, bill
"students go broke paying the increased tuition"

1) Why did you bump this?
2) HAHAHAHAHA. You realize some of your 3/4 yr preceptors aren't getting paid by your tuition? Please, for the love of god, tell one of your attendings that you pay them and that they need to teach you. Please
3) Really, using definitions? You sound fun