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dismissal from medical school?

Discussion in 'Medical Students - DO' started by Toran, Mar 6, 2002.

  1. Toran

    Toran Senior Member
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    young, dumb, and concentrated on changing the world. I guess that I thought that my questions of the professors would lead me to learning the material. Community, support, and curriculum... I learned a lot, mostly from my peers. There is a lot of love, you just have to know where to look.
    Now I am moving on, but I am not sure where or how to get to my final goal. I honestly don't know if this changes my final goal of becoming a doctor, and continuing to question about life and this unit that we live in. My final goal is to learn about the body, but I don't know where to go from here.

    Sorry this is rambled, but it is a stream of thoughts. I am some what numb still from the realization that I don't GET to take any more exams, and that I won't be graduating medical school in 2005...
    Toran
     
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  3. CADO2B

    CADO2B Member
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    I'm sorry to hear about that. But if there is a will there's a way. Appeal or reapply. Good luck man. Best wishes :)
     
  4. Wifty

    Wifty Eccentrically Silly
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    Toran,

    I am really sorry and can't imagine the emotional upheaval you are feeling right now. I feel confident that you will figure out what path you need to go down.

    May I ask why you were dismissed? Is there something that you could have done differently? What advice would you give someone just coming in?

    Take care and know that this time will pass and you will be looking back on it from the place that you should be.

    Wifty
     
  5. double elle

    double elle Senior Member
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    Toran,
    Have a safe trip home if you've decided not to hang out in Kville.

    I was really sorry to hear about your situation. Keep posting on here so we know what you are up to.

    -LL
     
  6. BigSkyDreams

    BigSkyDreams Smelly Uncle Member
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    Howdy,

    T,

    I will miss you, deeply.
     
  7. Medic171

    Medic171 Senior Member
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    it sucks to be you, man. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />
     
  8. jhug

    jhug 1K Member
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    Toran-- there are options! if kville wasn't your thing you can try other options among the DO world....or even other health related professions-ie: P.A. Take care and, as hard as it sounds, keep your head up-- we don't want you to miss any oportunities!!
     
  9. Toran

    Toran Senior Member
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    One thing that I really appreciate about the osteopathic medical students that I have met, is the love and support they share. People keep on telling me that this will end up for the best, and that I will go on to do big things.
    Currently, I am considering graduate school, and possibly a PhD. I am hopeful the research background would allow me to get back in to medical school (I am young).
    Any advice?
    Toran
     
  10. OldManDave

    OldManDave Fossil Bouncer Emeritus
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    Toran,

    I am very sorry to learn of our situation. This must be incredibly hard to cope with. However, please keep your head on straight and learn from this. You have proven yourself capable of getting into medical school and that is a major accomplishment of which you can be very proud. Use the valuable lessons you have learned from your KCOM experience and your classmates and forge a very successful career. There is no doubt that you have the ability...now you must simply do it.

    I wish you the best of luck & success!
     
  11. ussdfiant

    Physician Moderator Emeritus 10+ Year Member

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    I realize that this may be a callous question and I apologize in advance, but why were you dismissed? Is there no appeals process? I know that it is none of my business, but I have been following this thread for a couple of days now and am just curious. I echo the other posters in saying that I am sorry for your current situation.
     
  12. drewdo

    drewdo Senior Member
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    I too am curious about your dismissal. Last week at UHS we had a third-year OMT fellow (from another school) get fired after sending out an email to the first and second years. Most classmates that I have spoken with were very upset that he was fired as it seemed like his free speech was being squashed - almost like the school was operating more like a dictatorship and not a legit business. The email made statements encouraging the students to come together in presenting our arguments and complaints regarding some curriculum issues. (The fellow had a lot of students ask him why OMT was so under-supported at our school, why faculty were leaving in droves and other issues going on here). Anyway, I'm concerned about how our school handled the issue and I'd like to know what's going on up there at KCOM!! But if you'd rather not respond, I understand. Good luck to you, and I echo the sentiment of the above posters -- a new door has opened in your life!!
     
  13. Freeeedom!

    Freeeedom! Senior Member
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    I do know of a couple of people that were dismissed and regrouped themselves to reapply to other programs and eventually get accepted.

    Best of luck in your endeavors.
     
  14. Stillfocused

    Stillfocused Senior Member
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    What does one have to do to get dimissed from medical school?

    Fail more than one class?

    Committ a major act of accademic dishonesty?

    Get convicted of a felony?

    Be unable to function as a physcian due to severe medical/psychiatric illness/disability?

    Don't most med schools bend over backwards to keep students who are strugling in school.

    It seems to me that if the worst thing a student did was sass back to professors, the school potentially has a substantial piece of litgation on its hands for dismissing him.

    I have read some of the posts posts about COMP and its problem with dismissals.

    However, do osteopathic schools generally tend to be thougher than allopathic schools when it comes to dealing with students who are stuggling?

    Are schools graduation/retention rates for osteopathic schools published anywhere?
     
  15. Ligament

    Ligament Interventional Pain Management
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    GET A LAWYER *NOW*!!!

    My guess is your school will fold within hours of hearing from your lawyer. They dont want to deal with it and especially would not want to waste money on a lawyer, especially so since they just lost the many thousands of your tuition dollars.

    best of luck, dont take this crap from them.
     
  16. Toran

    Toran Senior Member
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    The whole point of this point for me was to get support, and to let others know that this can happen. Just be prepared, and think about the consequences. This was not a bash on some school thing, and certainly not a case of getting a lawyer. The curriculum didn't work out for me, and it should not be a reflection of any one school. I didn't anticipate this response, or I would have changed something so that there would be no way to know where I was going to school. I have been posting here for over five years, and have never gotten more than two or three replies...
    I have every intention of going back to school to get a masters, and possibly a PhD. This is not a big misfortune for me, because I was planning on earning a PhD after medical school any way (I am strongly motivated by research).
    My dismissal was because I failed three classes, one was within remediation range.
    The confusion that fills my head has to do with the true benefit to the school. I have established that I want to be here by two key actions: I asked for help with classes the first week of school from everyone and anyone that I could talk to, and secondly I appealed heavily to stay. I don't understand why I don't receive the support that I asked for. This is where my head is still confused.
    I will sort this out (with out any lawyers), in my own head. In the mean time, I am looking at other medical schools while researching graduate schools. For reference, if you should get dismissed from medical shcool most admissions recommend that you get some form of graduate degree in a hard science, while working in the medical field, to show that you can hack the rigors of medical school.

    Thanks for all of you support, and please don't push this as a reflection of any one school. This can happen to any one, many people are constantly on the edge of failure... Each curriculum works for some better than others.

    Toran
     
  17. NuMD97

    NuMD97 Senior Member
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    I agree with the other posters on several counts. But out of respect for your privacy will not ask for any more information from you. If you have any thoughts of re-entering med school at a later date, know that you will one day have to address the issues of what occurred at this school. You might want to consider legal counsel at this juncture, not so much to sue your former school, but to have a better grasp of what your options truly are. It will be harder to consider this if you return to the application process, say, four or five years down the road.

    I wish you well.
     
  18. HPSP

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    Toran,
    I dont know you but I can tell a few things from your post. You have character, integrity and a willingness to honestly evaluate your strengths and weaknesses. All three of these are all to often in short supply these days. My money is on you doing well in life. Good luck.
     
  19. double elle

    double elle Senior Member
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    Toran,
    Again, I was sorry to hear of your situation. However, after reading what you had to say regarding the reasoning for dismissal...I want to point out to you that I, personally, at LEAST twice offered to help you, as well as did others on here.

    You've posted many times about things you were having trouble with and there were many of us in your class who offered suggestions. I, personally, invited you to study and look over old tests with me and my study partners because I knew I had found a method of studying that worked well for me and I wanted to pass it along to see if it would help you.

    Your response was that it was too late to start a new method of studying, but you'd consider it for next (2nd) quarter. I even told my study group that you may be joining us at times, figuring you'd do whatever you could to improve things for yourself. I am sure you think you did that, but you posted that you were surprised that you didn't find the support you were looking for. You never got back to me about the possibility of studying with us.

    I hope you find a way to pursue your dream of becomming a physician. However, I really wish you'd think about the 150 or so resources you had within your class...The support was there, and it was offered.

    You post enough on here that everyone who frequents this site knows what school you attend. You make the school look like they just brushed you aside. Anyone considering coming to medical school needs to be mature enough to realize that ANYONE can be dismissed due to failure to fulfill academic requirements. It is also the responsibility of the prospective student to check to see what happens when a class is failed. I think our institution is very forgiving in that respect. Our remediation program is very flexible. However, there is a limit to the amount of classes one can fail, and you said only one of the three you failed was within the remediation range. Given that, I don't see where your confusion lies about where the support was......

    I am glad you are not agreeing with the law-suit fanatics on here.

    Bottom line, it could happen to me this quarter, or the person sitting beside me. None of us knows for certain that we will make it thru it all. One thing I know for sure...if even the stock-boy at Wal-Mart offers to help me with biochem...I'm going to take him up on it.
     
  20. wsu

    wsu Senior Member
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    Toran,

    Although I am sympathetic of your situation, medical school is difficult. No one is stupid to deny that. If one is having difficulty throgh medical school, consider that life after that doesn't get easier. It becomes harder.

    I am sure it was a diffcult event for you to experience. And I am sure that the administratin, although I do not know them or your circumstances personally, found this as well to be a difficult decision as well for them to do.

    Take this as a life and learning experience and consider that you have other options besides medicine if thats what you desire.
     
  21. SimulD

    SimulD Senior Member
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    Toran,

    I'm also sad to hear that you're moving on to other things.

    Hopefully, they will be better and brighter for you and you'll enjoy whatever you do. Maybe it will even be med school, maybe not, whatever you do, do it with passion.

    Good luck.

    Simul
     
  22. cholecalciferol

    cholecalciferol Senior Member
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    I would advised against doing a PhD. If you can't succeed at medical school you are not liking to succeed at advanced graduate level work. The pre-clinical aspect of medical school basically boils down to memorizing lots and lots of facts. Most people who fail, fail because, they can't muster enough energy to memorize facts, have bad time-management (not studying day in and day out), or have poor study skills (don't know how to use short-term, mid-term and long-term memory).

    In graduate school you are required to know lots of facts (not as much as a medical student). But you must also be able to think because a PhD requires doing orginal research. Something that most med students don't do it the first two years of medical school. It takes an average of 5 years to get and PhD and it may get even longer in the future.

    Your best bet is to apply again to another US medical school or go outside of the country (Mexico, Carribean, Europe, Austrialia or whatever). The Carribean would be your best bet because it's easier to get into and you can come back to US to practice. However, you gonna have to bite the bullet and study as if your life depended on it to avoid history repeating itself.
    Whatever you do think long and hard about your choice and best of luck
     
  23. bobo

    bobo Senior Member
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    The call to arms for an attorney is quite ridiculous.

    Not to belittle Toran, but flunking out of medical school is no easy feat. Schools HATE for this to happen. It looks bad and they lose a revenue stream. It is sort of like firing a crappy government employee, it takes damn near an act of Congress. Before I started school, I had crazy thought like what if I am the small % that fails? Well I am about as smart as joe schmoe next door and I have come nowhere near flunking ANYTHING.

    That said, I give props to Toran for taking it in what I perceive to be a relatively mature manner.
     
  24. biz

    biz Member
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    KCOM's class of 2004 lost something like 13 people who either had to 5th year or were dismissed. That's 10% of the class. And many of the class of 2005 had to take remediation exams at the end of the last two quarters. I'm sure the school doesn't want to lose students, but I don't see them going out of their way to keep them either. Toran, you're an intelligent person and though it seems the curriculum at KCOM didn't work for you, I know you'll find something that will. Best of luck to you!
     
  25. EMDrMoe

    EMDrMoe Senior Member
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    biz,isn't that percentage extremely high compared to other schools!? I may be way off base, but I've never heard of a school with that high of a failure rate.
     
  26. bobo

    bobo Senior Member
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    Those numbers are high, IMHO. How many of those are outright thrown out of medical school?

    I can speak semi-authoratively for only PCOM. The class of 2004 had something like 5 or 6 peeps not make it to the second year. As far as I know they are all still here, in various phases of remediation (since I guess they all failed different classes). I am not aware of anyone getting the outright boot.

    At PCOM the exams are curved so much that it is kind of insulting to those who study hard who get a decent grade only to see those who did poorly get their grade artificially propped up. Anyone who goes here will learn the "Kriebel curve" in the second year. Rumor has it that not a single person flunked neuro or endo last year. Pretty amazing when the endo class average was 70%.
     
  27. bobo

    bobo Senior Member
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    Also PCOM has 250+ per class - a rate of 2% failure roughly. And these folks are remediated and likely go on to finish school.

    I think that the people who are flat out kicked out of school have something else going on - family, personal issues, whatever. The VAST majority of people in school can make it thru.
     
  28. biz

    biz Member
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    KCOM's average failure rate is around 3%, but from what I've heard 2004 got hit hard by curriculum changes.
     
  29. mistirvr

    mistirvr Member
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    In the book Getting into Medical School Today (3rd edition, authors: Plantz, Cole, and Lorenzo), it states "No more than five percent of a class fails to complete the training in most medical schools. Higher percentages should be questioned."

    Now, this edition has a copyright date of 1996, but I would imagine that today's medical schools shouldn't have a higher attrition rate than that. Just a thought.

    -Melissa
     
  30. Soup #5

    Soup #5 Junior Member
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    Go to a Carribean school...if you really like medicine. Otherwise, take this as an opportunity to switch carreers. Medicine aint all that!
     
  31. wsu

    wsu Senior Member
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    I would disagree with the Caribeean thing.

    It may be easier in the short term but in the long run, I think its much more of a challenge.

    besides doing well on the usmle, and taking the csa, you have to deal with being a caribeen medical school in some ways has unique challneges of its own.

    if you're having dificulty in the basic sciecnes, going to the caribeean i think may not be the best answer. attrition rates can be very high depending on some school.s
     
  32. she_doc2005

    she_doc2005 New Member

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    Ok, this thread is getting ridiculous. None of you people who are coming down on Toran, including you double elle, know him at all. He is smart, intuitive, compassionate, and extremely hard-working. He studied his rear off all quarter...he sought out tutors, advice from professors, and help from other classmates. He's far from incapable of finishing this program, or a PhD program, or any other one he chooses to pursue. For some reason, the curriculum just didn't work for him, and when it came down to the wire, some of the faculty let the ball drop. There are many more factors involved here than simply his intelligence. Obviously, he's got that, or he wouldn't have made it into medical school to begin with. And if you would have read his posts more closely Double Elle, you would have seen that he said the support from his peers is what kept him going. He never once said encouragement from other students was lacking. Quite the opposite. So for all of you out there thinking of bashing Toran, do me a favor and THINK AGAIN. He doesn't need your smug comments or discouragement. Don't you think this is hard enough to begin with? Unless you are in his situation, you don't know what he's dealing with or how easy/difficult it is to be dismissed from medical school. Certainly, it is much easier than you think.
     
  33. Asclepian

    Asclepian Junior Member
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    This message threat has gotten a little out of hand. These posts (certainly not to be all-inclusive) are based more on personal perception of someone else's situation, then on facts. Oh where shall I begin?

    1. Just because Toran did not seek help from one study group in the KCOM class of 2005, doesn't mean he didn't seek help. I was asked for help by him, and did so. So to say that he had 150 resources he didn't use, because he didn't go to you, that is being a little to self centered.

    2. People fail medical school (fact). People fail medical school because they aren't trying (Not necessarily fact). If you don't go to school at KCOM and don't know Toran personally.... then don't comment on his study habits of what he is capable of doing (i.e., he isn't cut out for a Ph.D. program because he has issues with studying enough).

    3. The answer to Toran's problem is NOT, leave the country for medical training or give up on it. I don't pretend to know the answers to his dilema, but I certainly don't feel that those are his best options. Maybe, just maybe he needs to find a better suited program.

    4. Toran should be applauded for taking the high ground on the lawyer issue. It is a difficult stance to take. If you know anything about medical schools (KCOM imparticular) then you would know that about the only thing they respond to is litigation. The scene has been played over and over (KCOM most definately included) that a student shows back up with a lawyer, and magically that student is accepted back in.

    5. If you know Toran, you would understand why we are all very upset about his dismissal. Some of us stood beside someone we felt would make, and hopefully will still make, a wonderful physician. KCOM is in part responsible for losing someone who could (again, I hope he still will) make a lasting impression in our profession.

    ** I have removed my final comment from this section, as it was being taken in a manner in which I never intended it to be. For those that saw it and reacted to it, I appologize. If you have any questions, feel free to contact me at [email protected] **
     
  34. andrea

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    Could you tell us a bit more about why so many people sought out transfers, and why some of the faculty left? I'll be starting at KCOM in the fall, and would like to know what I'm getting myself into. Thanks.
     
  35. PuppyLuv

    PuppyLuv Member
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    after reading posts, concluded that high attrition rate is a common thing for osteopathic schools (not for MD schools)........ sad
     
  36. double elle

    double elle Senior Member
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    People,
    I'm not going to argue with you on this. I am not coming down on Toran, as I feel very badly for his situation. It just seemed that when he stated something to the effect that he didn't find the support he was looking for...that he made the school look bad and that isn't right at all. I failed the first histology test last quarter...That isn't the school's fault.

    I posted what I did because, to me and several others in the class of 2005, it seemed as if he gave the impression that he had absolutely no help what-so-ever, and I wanted the readers on here to realize that could have had help from a variety of places.

    You are correct, I don't know Toran that well, which should make it an even bigger statement that I offered to help him repeatedly. I hated the thought of someone struggling. And I DO know his behind was at school non-stop with his nose in a book. However, none of this means that the school is completely responsible for his academic success or failure.

    And for the 'expert' on the events of three years ago...please make sure you know what can of worms you are opening. The school/admistration had some problems...what school doesn't?

    I, being one of MANY, feel I attend a top-rate school. I am sure those feelings are common, and that's why all the readers here chose the school they did. There is no need at all to bring up past problems an institution has encountered and resolved.
     
  37. AMW1229

    AMW1229 New Member

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    Toran,

    I'm sorry to hear about the difficulties you are facing. Here is some advice about what to do next. I doubt that you have poor study habits. Getting accepted in medical school does a good job of weeding out slackers. I understand and sympathize with your situation. I'm sure you did well in all of you previous endeavors with the study habits you employed in DO school. Unfortunately, for all involved, the curriculum seems to not have worked for you.

    Considering your interest in research I think that a PhD would be a good route. I currently work at the CDC and would be happy to give you a contact here if you needed some time to decide your future plans. Before I started here, I was unsure what I wanted to do, research or med school. After working with plasma for 6 months I quickly decided to pursue work with "real people." However, as I began work on my thesis for my master's in birth defects, I realized that some research can encompass the best of both worlds. Perhaps you will find something that will do the same for you.

    Before deciding your path, since you are young, I would consider investing some time in the health field doing research. Best of luck in your future endeavors.

    Alicia
     
  38. Starboard

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    Puppy Luv-

    Sadly, I think you're right about attrition rates in allopathic and osteopathic schools. However given the history of osteopathic medicine I am not at all surprised. Osteopathy has faced continual scrutiny from both the public as well as other health care practitioners (namely MD's). In struggling to ensure that their students are adequately trained and also to prove that we are equal in capability to our allopathic brethren, I'm sure most osteopathic administrations have stronger policies and requirements.

    Which is not to say that MD students don't face a threat of dismissal. Everyone does. The key is finding an institution that will support and encourage you to continue your education, no matter what you?re facing, if that's your dream. Whether or not such places really exist... who knows
     
  39. Starboard

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    Perhaps I'm way off ... but it seems Toran's original post was in part to seek some guidance from fellow and perhaps former students. I too am curious to know if there are others out there who have been dismissed and what they chose to do afterwards. Has anyone successfully reapplied? Have they found happiness in other professions? Any thoughts?
     
  40. Asclepian

    Asclepian Junior Member
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    My statements concerning previous classes were used only to illustrate the point that KCOM is not perfect. That medical schools are not just all about keeping students in the class. That at times, other things are going on... Not that a person has to commit a felony or get caught cheating to add to the attrition rate. The issues that people had in the class of 2003, are just that... their issues. If you want to know more about them, you really should seek someone out from that class that experienced it first hand.

    Andrea - As for coming here in the Fall, you have NOTHING to worry about. The issues I mentioned are NOT even discussed/brought up now.

    As for being the 'expert' on the issue, I never claimed to be. And "make sure you know what can of worms you are opening", I would say that if the problems are in the past (as I hope they are) then there shouldn't be a can of worms at all. They should be used to illustrate how KCOM successfully resolved a problem and moved on.

    Now, for everyone reading who thinks that I am anti-KCOM.... I am NOT. I think this school provides a great education process for a vast majority of students (which includes myself). I would even go so far as to say "THE BEST" education that is out there for D.O.s. The students in my class make it worth while to go here, everyday. The admissions team does a WONDERFUL job at somehow picking people out who are real team players and packs the class with them. Every year KCOM is known for class cooperation and helpfulness. If you get accepted here, you should feel lucky and privaledged. I know that I do. My classmates do everything they can to help people (see double elle's posts) get through. That is one of the top reasons I chose KCOM... go check out other medical programs and talk to their students, they are only looking out for themselves (at least that is my experience).

    The post that I made was just for people to hear the hard truth that as a higher education institution, they have problems. Are they the only medical school with problems? Absolutley not. But should we sweep what problems KCOM has had under the carpet and pretend that it never did? I dont think so. If I am going to go through the trouble to sit here and type, I am going to say whatever I can for people to see the issue from both sides. That was what my attempt was, in my original post. And I will say it again for the cheap seats that didn't catch it the first time.... There are/were problems on BOTH sides, of the Toran issue. In other words, KCOM is NOT unilaterally responsible for Toran leaving. Toran failed classes. But the thing that I felt, reading these posts, was people saying that Toran didn't seek help... or that he wasn't smart enough. Neither of these are true.
     
  41. KCOM2005

    KCOM2005 Senior Member
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    A quote I heard recently, "In nature there are neither rewards or punishments, there are consequences" (R.D. Ingersoll). I think the same can be said here. I respect Toran, but the truth is that he did not live up to the expectations of the school. He self-admittidly failed 3 classes, two of which were out of remediation range. If the curriculum were to blame I think he would have had more company. I believe that we all walk down our own path at our own pace. Maybe this isn't Toran's path or maybe this wasn't his pace. THIS DOES NOT CHANGE THE FACT THAT TORAN IS AN IMPORTANT PERSON. Another quote, "If the aborigine drafted an IQ test, all of the Western civilization would presumably flunk it" (Stanley Marion Garn).

    It really irritates me that this has turned into finger-pointing at the institution. Where does it stop. Do you blame all of Osteopathy for holding standards which our school must meet? Do you blame the NBOME for being that institution that gives out the COMLEX for which our curriculum is geared? Do you blame society for regarding their health (and physicians) too highly?

    I declined to reply until I saw what Andrea wrote. Andrea, you can rest easy in knowing that you will be entering a very challenging world. You can expect that there will be some very trying times. You can expect that you will be engaged in a curriculum which has proven compatible for the great majority of students going to this school (as shown by the board pass rates). You can expect that ingrained within you will be a deep-seeded fear of failing out of school (I can't imagine the consequences of NOT having this fear). There is a reason for fear. Not only does it make you aware of the need to perform now, but it makes you realize that this is your life. Each day physicians have to meet very high expectations. Medicine can be a very unforgiving world. Most importantly, you can expect that you will be a better person for having walked through KCOM's doors.

    Toran's situation is very unfortunate, I believe we should all try to learn as much as we can from that. I know that Toran of all people will have learned from this.
     
  42. hosskp1

    hosskp1 Senior Member
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    I am truly sorry for what has happened to you-- my advice is to lay low, get a graduate degree, and reapply to another school(osteopathic or allopathic). I do not recommend going out of the country

    I remember from my first year a big lie-- it takes more to get into medical school than it does to stay in. THAT IS NOT TRUE IN MY WORLD.
    Everyone should take this as a lesson learned. In osteopathic school-- there is no guarantee you will make it. It is a tough place and they make it tougher all the time. This school is similar to my school and things like this have happened there as well. I must say that there is one thing that my school has taught me well-- preparing me for dealing with getting pushed around, friction, mental stress, exhaustion, boredom, and tediousness. I do not depend on anyone, I do not depend on lectures or spoon feeding or anything except myself to teach me and learn what I need to know to get through things. I believe this is what separates us from other schools, not just the OMM. We did not have a scribe, no problem based learning. We had a test every week, lectures everyday from 8-5 and labs even on days when we had two tests. We came wanting to learn as much OMM as possible, but We learned so much OMM in two years that it was just another class for us to learn-- not something special (those tests were usually mid week between two hard exams so we had to really balance what we studied). We used to get chastised for skipping lectures. We had to study through spring break (true story- first and second year), thanksgiving, christmas, easter, and when we started third year, we were required to be in the clinic on the fourth of july and thnksgiving day. If some residency directors took a look at what we put up with to learn-- they might be more sympathetic. MY fellow students are very aggressive with things we want to do-- this is how they taught us to be.

    So I have survived well into my third year and I have only one message for people entering-- Welcome. Learn how to study, work hard and get used to pushing yourself early. It is not fun, it is hard work. It is not enlightening, it is a profesional school. they are teaching us how to become tough, hard ass old style clinicians and thinkers.

    After saying all of this-- if I get the residency I want, I will be very grateful. It will mean that my school gave me a chance to do what I wanted. Even after the ass whooping, if I get the residency I want I will donate money (better than most in my class who say they will never donate money).
     
  43. Big Bill

    Big Bill Senior Member
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    Toran, I do have to give you credit for not blaming the school or the professors. You probably need to sit back and see whats wrong and try another school. I am sure you will not be the first nor will be the last. Most schools would represent this as adjustment and probably give you another chance. Just dont quit. If you do then you would have acheived what the school thought of you when they sent the dismissal letter.
     
  44. Sweaty Paul

    Sweaty Paul Senior Member
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    Andrea,

    DO NOT PANIC...KCOM is alive and well. You will do fine. Yes, medical school is tough, you will wonder why you wanted to subject yourself to the academic abuse, you will be exhausted but continue to study...all so you can succeed. And when you do succeed you will revel in your accomplishments.

    I look back and wonder how I survived year one, and yet, despite losing a number of my classmates either to fifth year status or failure (most are in 2005) the vast majority of us did survive. Was it luck...sure, sometimes, but, we found a way to survive and you will too. You'll begin to learn faster, get help early from first, second, or even crabby old (hopefully 3rd year Sweaty Paul).

    What Toran is experiencing sucks. That is the bottom line. And those of us who have survived can't fully grasp how much it must suck. Still the class of 2005 is doing better than did 2004. As for the alleged 30 people who wanted to transfer from the Class of 2003 there is more to that than you can possibly imagine, and trying to simplify it to a SDN post would be impossible. Also, our attrition/fifth year rates are higher, but, unlike many other schools we don't have the summer between 1st and 2nd year to utilize as a remediation tool to keep classes together. Also, like it or not, the school has an obligation to produce quality students. Unfortunately, societies' view of quality is predicated on examinations that likely have little relevance to the clinical aspects of practicing medicine (at least in the 1st year). Do any of you really think that any med student needs two quarters of biochem to be an effective clinician? Unfortunately, society and those who write the Board exams (basic scientists) do and we are stuck with that. I hated when we lost classmates and it hurts that we lost Toran from the KCOM community, however, we have to, and will go on.

    Andrea, I actually envy you. You are coming to KCOM at a time of truly dynamic change. We have a new Dean of Academics who is bringing with him a vision of the future for KCOM that will only improve the school and your educational experience. The Dean for years 1 and 2 and the Dean for years 3 and 4 are aggressive, pro-student, and share Dean Osborn's vision for KCOM. We are building a new Library, we have the only two NIH grants ever given to study the efficacy of Osteopathic Manipulation, an outstanding basic science faculty, and great clinicians, our OPTIK sites continue to grow, and we have residents in virtually every area of medicine all over the country. KCOM is far from dying, instead we are in the midst of exciting change.

    With all this good, however, you'll find problems once you get here, because no place is perfect. And when you do find a problem; I challenge to try to change it for the better with professionalism, courtesy, and help from your new colleagues.

    Andrea, I have no regrets in my decision to attend KCOM and I can hope that you too have no regrets. If you have any questions please feel free to let me know.

    Sincerely,

    Sweaty Paul
    MS-II KCOM

    P.S. Toran I wish you the best of luck in any of your endeavors.
     
  45. OldManDave

    OldManDave Fossil Bouncer Emeritus
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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Asclepian:
    <strong>5. If you know Toran, you would understand why we are all very upset about his dismissal. Some of us stood beside someone we felt would make, and hopefully will still make, a wonderful physician. KCOM is in part responsible for losing someone who could (again, I hope he still will) make a lasting impression in our profession.

    6. Final point. The attrition rates at KCOM speak for themselves. They are way to high, and if you don't believe us, talk to someone outside of the admissions department (they are only going to say positive things for obvious reasons). The KCOM class of 2003 had over 30 requests for transfer for the things that occur here. Clinical faculty have left in protest. These things are not "normal" medical school occurances. They are signs of the problems that exist here. So please understand that there is more to this story than a medical student who was dismissed... There are/were problems on BOTH sides.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Asclepian;

    While I agree with you on the majority of your points [yes, it is sad that Toran is not going to graduate with you guys and I am glad he took the honorable route & avoided litigation], I do not agree with you on the latter couple of points. Whereas, in fact, you are merely spreading rumors about a situation you were not even around to experience.

    First, in my experience, the normal attrition rate for KCOM (I am familiar with those of classes 2000~2004) are NOT in excess of the national average. In fact, both classes 2002 & 2003 were substantially below: 2002, class of ~150 lost 2 or 3 totally and 5th yeared 4 into my class. My class, 2003 - the largest in school history - 174 lost 2 completely (1 of them a 5th year from 2002), 1 to withdrawal and 5th yeared 5 into 2004 & one of those 5th years was an elective one. So your claims of an abnormally high attrition rate are blatantly false.

    Not to point an accusing finger, but the class of 2004 has had an extraordinarily high loss/5th year rate...do not pass judgement upon the an entire program from the narrow perspective of a single class. Yes, 2004 had curriculum issues...but, 2003 was the FIRST class thru the new curriculum & we had a far smaller attrition rate than they did...their version was tweaked and debugged vs the version 2003 endured.

    On the issue of "clinical faculty" leaving. This again was an event that has not effected you, you did not experience this and have no right to be speaking as though you are knowledgable about this.

    Yes, there was some severe Deans issues over the emphasis of curricular content, focus and many other issues. However, the Deans issues have now been stabilized with the filling of all three major academic Deans slots with qualified DOs who are all Board certified specialists.

    During my first year, the clinical faculty felt very very strongly that certain reforms were mandatory. They felt strongly enough that there was a threatened walk out, which actually did occur for a short period of time. The faculty felt sufficiently pro-student to place their jobs on the line. How many faculty at other schools would do that? In the course of things, that same faculty figured out that they could do more for us, the students, by returning to teach us and utilizing appropriate channels to facilitate the needed reforms -- the same reforms that your class is benefitting from right now.

    The missing faculty to which you refer are only 4 or 5 individuals who, with the exception of a couple of them, were offered the chance to return, but refused to do so. The have chosen not to return and to be very unprofessional and vocal in their choosing to do so. Excepting that small handful, ALL of the faculty returned and has been teaching at KCOM along with quite a few new people.

    Your claim that my class, 2003, had 30 requests for transfer. Exactly how did you find this out? That is confidential information and not something you can get an accurate depiction of through the grapevine. Do you not realize that gossip only grows as it is retold time & time again. I do not doubt that there were a few transfer requests, it was a very tense & stressful time during all of that stuff. However, no one actually did transfer from my class to any other schools. I cannot imagine there having been that many...but even if there were, you, as a student, would have no way of knowing how many & to portray yourself as knowing is wrong and borders on slanderous.

    Do NOT simply repeat what you have heard about events that occured long before you arrived. You are an intelligent professional-to-be and not a parrot. Yes, there was some major $hit that went down during my first year, but the school has emerged stronger, in my opinion. No, it is not a perfect place...but there is no such thing! When you do get out here & into the wards, you will learn that the education you received at KCOM, while not perfect, leaves you very well prepared for clinical medicine training.

    Please, in the future, try to refrain from placing unfounded gossip, accusations and petty gripes about your program into a public forum. If you have legit problems and are able to substantiate them, there are well defined avenues through which you can pursue them. Believe it or not, they work -- it seems slow & ponderous, but they work over time. By airing dirty laundry in public, esp if you really are not able to "know" the accuracy or substantiate the truth, only reflects negatively upon you, your school and can potentially prove harmful in the future when you go to apply for residency slots.
     
  46. OldManDave

    OldManDave Fossil Bouncer Emeritus
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    I apologize to anyone who feels that my above post was rather strong. However, it severely gauls e for someone to come off telling the world how the shoes I walked in fit when he was no where to foound at the time all of this transpired.

    Even after having REALLY gone through some scary shake-up sort of stuff, this all occured back in late '99 and 2000...I can still unequivocally endorse the education I have received from KCOM.

    Yes, it truly does suck that we have to loose people, like Toran, who have worked so hard to get into med school. It is an unfortunate reality that we all will & have faced throughout our medical education, training & careers. If you did not realize this risk coming into medical school...then you had better get a grasp on it and accept it now.

    I wish you all the best of luck and success...
     
  47. Asclepian

    Asclepian Junior Member
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    OldManDave -

    My apologies for upsetting you by bringing up the fact that your class had problems. This is clearly still a sore subject for you. It was never my intent to belittle you, or anyone that experienced the happenings in the KCOM 2003 class. My point, as I have already stated multiple times, was to illustrate that higher education institutions do experience problems that affect students. You admit there were problems, you admit there were students and clinical faculty that suffered. Can I substantiate the exact number of people that asked for transfers? Absolutely not?. Again, it was only my intention to show there was a problem (a point which you have successfully backed-up). Furthermore, if you would have taken to the time to read my second post, I clearly stated that those issued were resolved (to the best of my knowledge). I never claimed that I walked in your shoes, or that they still affected me.

    As for the attrition rate, I am very glad to hear that 2002, and 2003 did not have high rates. However, you admit that 2004 did? and maybe it is just because I am in the 2005 class, but it appears to me that we have already lost more then the numbers you claim for 2002 & 2003. That is my reasoning behind feeling the attrition rates being too high. If I am wrong about our class, I apologize in advance. These are just my ?feelings? as a result of hearing many names of people who are no longer in our class.

    Lastly, if you would learn to remove some of your emotion from the situation, and only read into what I said? you would find that this statement is a bit over the top:

    ?Please, in the future, try to refrain from placing unfounded gossip, accusations and petty gripes about your program into a public forum.?

    The ?unfounded gossip and accusations? you refer to, I am assuming, are the statements I made about KCOM class of 2003. Almost every statement (the exception being the number of people requesting transfers) that I made, you have admitting as being true. The class had problems, there were students who wanted transfers, there are clinical faculty who are no longer employed by KCOM, and lastly (and most importantly) these problems have been corrected. We both have said the exact same thing here.

    If you wish to communicate further on this issue (OldManDave), please feel free to contact me personally so we can continue it in a less public place. I can be reached via email at [email protected]
     
  48. eldonpencil

    eldonpencil New Member

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    To those who will read this,

    Dave, being a member of the class of 2003 myself, I echo many of your sentiments. I think we have to all remember that most of what is written here is opinion. Dr. Bensler (our excellent radiologist) often prefaced his advice with, "this is my opinion and opinions are often wrong." With that said, those who truly suffered during that "crisis" were the students. In retrospect it seems the faculty's intentions may not have been as honorable as you made them to be. As students, I am certain we were not witness to most of the ugly politics, backbiting, and ego preservation that occurred behind closed doors. Do you honestly believe that we were privy to ALL the information? I fear that the clinical faculty had other elements to their agenda and the students in part, were used as pawns (although I have no empirical data to substantiate my claims). Please, this should not give license to stir up the old rumor mill again, remember this is just my opinion. As far as the administration during that time&#8230; well I just don't want to get into it. Getting back to my original point. Despite the detriment the school put us in, the class of 2003 managed a not too shabby 97.x% board pass rate. To their credit, KCOM did an excellent job getting quality clinicians to teach our classes, most of whom I believe are still teaching today. So no worries class of 2006 and other KCOMers to be. Medical school is a means to an end (i.e. to become quality physicians); just remember to try to enjoy the trip along the way (though difficult at times). As for the individual that started this discussion (Toran?), sorry dude that rots! I don't know you from Adam so I won't preach&#8230; good luck to you!!!!!!

    Incidentally, anyone out there do a clinical rotation outside the US????? Am interested in getting info on how one might research that&#8230;. Thanks!!!

    Eldonpencil
     
  49. Sweaty Paul

    Sweaty Paul Senior Member
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    Eldonpencil,

    You need only contact Regional Affairs at KCOM. The new Dean of the OPTIK programs is working on establishing international rotations too. Currently he is working on establishing one in Belize. If, however, you have a specific desire to go somewhere else, I would still contact Dr. Howell as he is extremely amenable to student input and needs.

    Sweaty Paul
    KCOM MS-II
     
  50. OldManDave

    OldManDave Fossil Bouncer Emeritus
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    Eldon,

    You are most correct in that we will never know all that went on, nor do I portray myself, or anyone else knowing all that went on...honestly, I don't know that I want to know it all. The crux of my pont was that I was very offended, probably exacerbated by the lack of sleep for surg call, by someone portraying themself as passing along "facts" as though they were there.

    There is no doubt that there were motives w/i motives w/i motives...however, the most important points in my diatribe: 1) we received an excellent, not perfect, but excellent education & 2) in part due to the crap that we, 2003, & 2002 endured, the school has made some major improvements and I think represents a much stronger program than when we entered.
     
  51. nebaker

    nebaker Member
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    It sounds to me like everyone thinks that they had it the worst. Personally I would like to jump in and say that we, as in class of 2005, have had it pretty bad. I know that is why so many people have been struggling and why we have had so many who have had to remediate 1 or 2 classes, or have 5th yeared, or have been dismissed.

    I understand that the major reworking of the cirriculum took place a while ago BUT they are still changing it around today to try to make it better. The administration know that there are many problems. In fact, on administrator came up to me on Friday and told me how sorry he was that we have had it so tough these last few quarters. He insisted that the admistration has been trying to make it better for us but there has been a lot of resistance to change from the instructors. He told me that the instructors think that "more is better" ane that he is trying to get them to lighten our load.

    I think many in 2005 would not complain about the instruction we are recieving, or the relavance of the material, but about the mass quantity that we are expected to pretty much memorize word for word, instead of learn, for tests and quizzes.

    I know that this has been a long post and I have gone off on a few tangents, but my main point is this: I understand that everyone feels that they had it the worst, but I don't think anyone can know how hard 2005 has had it unless you are in our class. So, give us a break. We work hard. Toran worked hard. I know that with a different cirriculum things would have turned out a lot different.
     

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