Dispelling a few myths about AA, URMs, and medical admissions

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Shredder said:
the true reasons for any forms of AA are two: to buy votes and prevent riots. if medical students and high school students started going out in hoards to vote against politicians who supported aa, i would fall off the face of the usa. politicians dont care about equal representation and this and that, they only want votes. but young people hardly vote so instead they only can gripe about it.
Diversity in healthcare is something that has value. We all learn about varying viewpoints from our peers and hopefully become bigger people and better practitioners for it. It's something that benefits patients, not just program entrants. So, there is more than just politics involved with that issue. AA is just not a fair or sensible way to sort people out. It is certainly fair to give people bonus points for being able to explain why they can contribute in a way that is different than other applicants. It's not fair to assume someone will contribute more or less based on URM status alone.

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bananaface said:
Diversity in healthcare is something that has value. We all learn about varying viewpoints from our peers and hopefully become bigger people and better practitioners for it. It's something that benefits patients, not just program entrants. So, there is more than just politics involved with that issue.
all pc speak straight from med school websites and left wing media reports. why dont we ever hear direct reports of these benefits and varying viewpoints from students themselves. and do people need different skin colors to represent different viewpoints

again 2 options:
1.forced diversity via double standards, with the cost being underlying animosity and doubts that are present even if not expressed. the only way someone would not have doubts is to be irrational and brainwash oneself.

2.equal playing field with one standard and mutual respect for everyones abilities and credentials

so this is a choice minorities have to make in deciding whether to support aa policies or not. bear in mind, double standards do not change whether someone is qualified to attend a school or not. its like wearing stilts in the nba, wont work. besides, nobody can ever answer the question of why there isnt any AA in sports, especially bball. can you? hey, personally id find it enjoyable to watch some indians play ball, lets get them in there.
 
bananaface said:
Diversity in healthcare is something that has value. We all learn about varying viewpoints from our peers and hopefully become bigger people and better practitioners for it. It's something that benefits patients, not just program entrants. So, there is more than just politics involved with that issue. AA is just not a fair or sensible way to sort people out.
I understand why AA should not be the ultimate fix for admissions, but considering our current predicament, why isn't it a sensible quick-fix? No other methods implemented at this high level of education have been proved to work better to promote diversity.
 
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Shredder said:
all pc speak straight from med school websites and left wing media reports

again 2 options:
1.forced diversity via double standards, with the cost being underlying animosity and doubts that are present even if not expressed. the only way someone would not have doubts is to be irrational and brainwash oneself.

2.equal playing field with one standard and mutual respect for everyones abilities and credentials

so this is a choice minorities have to make in deciding whether to support aa policies or not. bear in mind, double standards do not change whether someone is qualified to attend a school or not. its like wearing stilts in the nba, wont work. besides, nobody can ever answer the question of why there isnt any AA in sports, especially bball. can you? hey, personally id find it enjoyable to watch some indians play ball, lets get them in there.
I have some added comments above. BTW, I have never once read a med school website. I am speaking as someone who has had experience as a healthcare practitioner in underserved, average, and priviledged communities. It sounds as if you don't buy the idea that diversity has value and that you favor a merit based system. Is this correct?
 
To everyone who keeps throwing around the competence issue, I did a little more homework. Medical schools acknowledge that at a certain point, lower MCAT scores correlate to greater probability of failure in medical school. The current admissions practice is to set thresholds. These thresholds are based on the statistical probability of success in medical school given certain MCAT scores. Even minority students are subject to these standards. The study is summarized here:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...d&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15833725&query_hl=1
A comparison of statistical criteria for setting optimally discriminating MCAT and GPA thresholds in medical school admissions.

Albanese MA, Farrell P, Dottl SL.

Department of Population Health Sciences, University of Wisconsin Medical School, Madison, Wisconsin 53726-2397, USA. [email protected]

BACKGROUND: Using Medical College Admission Test-grade point average (MCAT-GPA) scores as a threshold has the potential to address issues raised in recent Supreme Court cases, but it introduces complicated methodological issues for medical school admissions. PURPOSE: To assess various statistical indexes to determine optimally discriminating thresholds for MCAT-GPA scores. METHODS: Entering classes from 1992 through 1998 (N = 752) are used to develop guidelines for cut scores that optimize discrimination between students who pass and do not pass the United States Medical Licensing Examination (USMLE) Step 1 on the first attempt. RESULTS: Risk differences, odds ratios, sensitivity, and specificity discriminated best for setting thresholds. Compensatory versus noncompensatory procedures both accounted for 54% of Step 1 failures, but demanded different performance requirements (noncompensatory MCAT-biological sciences = 8, physical sciences = 7, verbal reasoning = 7--sum of scores = 22; compensatory MCAT total = 24). CONCLUSIONS: Rational and defensible intellectual achievement thresholds that are likely to comply with recent Supreme Court decisions can be set from MCAT scores and GPAs.

If you'd like to pay $24 for the full article, be my guest. You should then share the additional information with the rest of us.
 
But wait, there's more! What could be more important in determining who will be a quality physician than GPA and MCAT you ask? Since many seem to think I'm co-conspiring with the AMA, AAMC, NIH, and Congress to create the illusion that ethnic/racial diversity is important in medicine, I'll list different qualities sought after by medical admissions committees.

Empathy: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...d&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12047665&query_hl=3
ONTEXT: Empathy is a major component of a satisfactory doctor-patient relationship and the cultivation of empathy is a learning objective proposed by the Association of American Medical Colleges (AAMC) for all American medical schools. Therefore, it is important to address the measurement of empathy, its development and its correlates in medical schools. OBJECTIVES: We designed this study to test two hypotheses: firstly, that medical students with higher empathy scores would obtain higher ratings of clinical competence in core clinical clerkships; and secondly, that women would obtain higher empathy scores than men. MATERIALS AND SUBJECTS: A 20-item empathy scale developed by the authors (Jefferson Scale of Physician Empathy) was completed by 371 third-year medical students (198 men, 173 women). METHODS: Associations between empathy scores and ratings of clinical competence in six core clerkships, gender, and performance on objective examinations were studied by using t-test, analysis of variance, chi-square and correlation coefficients. RESULTS: Both research hypotheses were confirmed. Empathy scores were associated with ratings of clinical competence and gender, but not with performance in objective examinations such as the Medical College Admission Test (MCAT), and Steps 1 and 2 of the US Medical Licensing Examinations (USMLE). CONCLUSIONS: Empathy scores are associated with ratings of clinical competence and gender. The operational measure of empathy used in this study provides opportunities to further examine educational and clinical correlates of empathy, as well as stability and changes in empathy at different stages of undergraduate and graduate medical education.

Other qualifications include "fundamental proficiencies such as accurate recording of observations, communicating ideas well, dealing with human emotions and becoming sensitive to human frailties, learning to listen and respond appropriately, learning to make sound judgments, and cultivating empathy and compassion."

For more of these non-MCAT and GPA related criteria, check out
http://www.naahp.org/abstract_threeflat.htm

From reading this, I found out that

"The findings that 74 percent of the variance in graduation categories was not accounted for by the traditional preadmissions data for students in Group I and that more than 60 percent of the students in Group II are doing better than predicted by the discriminant model emphasizes the limitations of using traditional admissions variables in predicting progress of nontraditional students. "

WHAT?! 74% of the variance not accounted for by the traditional preadmissions data :eek: ??? I guess there goes the idea that those with highest MCATS and GPAS should always have the "spots" and under qualified URMs with lower scores bump those people from "their spots". Maybe Admissions committees find it necessary to consider other, non-numerical factors.
 
LadyJubilee8_18 said:
I understand why AA should not be the ultimate fix for admissions, but considering our current predicament, why isn't it a sensible quick-fix? No other methods implemented at this high level of education have been proved to work better to promote diversity.
It is a quick way to get some diversity, but not a satisfactory solution. We need to revamp the admissions process so that the unique and valuble things that URMs bring to the table are valued more in the admissions process. It's a hard solution. There will always be some group that is underrepresented, either because they aren't applying as often, or because something about the applicants or the admissions process makes them inherently less competitive.
 
bananaface said:
It is a quick way to get some diversity, but not a satisfactory solution. We need to revamp the admissions process so that the unique and valuble things that URMs bring to the table are valued more in the admissions process. It's a hard solution. There will always be some group that is underrepresented, either because they aren't applying as often, or because something about the applicants or the admissions process makes them inherently less competitive.
hmm, I guess this is a quasi-agreement in an AA thread. Never thought it would happen. **pats self on the back for making a civil AA thread**
 
LadyJubilee8_18 said:
hmm, I guess this is a quasi-agreement in an AA thread. Never thought it would happen. **pats self on the back for making a civil AA thread**
But now is where I step in and play devil's advocate. :D

Can you find an argument for diversity in non-clinical specialties?
 
bananaface said:
But now is where I step in and play devil's advocate. :D

Can you find an argument for diversity in non-clinical specialties?
yes, but in the morning. I'm going to pay attention to my boyfriend for the rest of the night. Good-night to all. To be continued...
 
Satisfactory solution would be to scrutinize every possible variable in the applicants personal and educational life which would take:

A) Too much time.
B) Be invasive.
C) Lead to too much subjectivity in admissions.

The thing about medicine is that it involves touchy feely emotions. If this was engineering school it shouldn't matter.
 
BrettBatchelor said:
Satisfactory solution would be to scrutinize every possible variable in the applicants personal and educational life which would take:

A) Too much time.
B) Be invasive.
C) Lead to too much subjectivity in admissions.

The thing about medicine is that it involves touchy feely emotions. If this was engineering school it shouldn't matter.
Your argument is just a straw man. There is a medium between where schools are in terms of valuing diversity and where they need to be that does not involve analyzing every possible variable. Admissions are already nearly completely subjective. You think it's all about stats, but it's not. They just get your foot in the door. Not a single person in my class at school is a smoker, because the school screened them out in the interview. A good adcom can read you inside and out. If they don't like you they will reject you, regardless of your stats. If they want a diverse group, they need to ask questions that let them select accordingly. Many of them just don't know what questions to ask and are wary to change the admissions criteria that they have grown used to. Chances are, it's what got them where they want to be.
 
I was just proposing that instead of a blanket URM to those who have no intention of practicing in the underrepresented realm then why the boost. If the point is to get people to serve the URM community they should look more closely at the issue instead of just the heritage of the person.
 
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LadyJubilee8_18 said:
But wait, there's more! What could be more important in determining who will be a quality physician than GPA and MCAT you ask? Since many seem to think I'm co-conspiring with the AMA, AAMC, NIH, and Congress to create the illusion that ethnic/racial diversity is important in medicine, I'll list different qualities sought after by medical admissions committees.

Empathy: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...d&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12047665&query_hl=3
ONTEXT: Empathy is a major component of a satisfactory doctor-patient relationship and the cultivation of empathy is a learning objective proposed by the Association of American Medical Colleges (AAMC) for all American medical schools. Therefore, it is important to address the measurement of empathy, its development and its correlates in medical schools. OBJECTIVES: We designed this study to test two hypotheses: firstly, that medical students with higher empathy scores would obtain higher ratings of clinical competence in core clinical clerkships; and secondly, that women would obtain higher empathy scores than men. MATERIALS AND SUBJECTS: A 20-item empathy scale developed by the authors (Jefferson Scale of Physician Empathy) was completed by 371 third-year medical students (198 men, 173 women). METHODS: Associations between empathy scores and ratings of clinical competence in six core clerkships, gender, and performance on objective examinations were studied by using t-test, analysis of variance, chi-square and correlation coefficients. RESULTS: Both research hypotheses were confirmed. Empathy scores were associated with ratings of clinical competence and gender, but not with performance in objective examinations such as the Medical College Admission Test (MCAT), and Steps 1 and 2 of the US Medical Licensing Examinations (USMLE). CONCLUSIONS: Empathy scores are associated with ratings of clinical competence and gender. The operational measure of empathy used in this study provides opportunities to further examine educational and clinical correlates of empathy, as well as stability and changes in empathy at different stages of undergraduate and graduate medical education.

Other qualifications include "fundamental proficiencies such as accurate recording of observations, communicating ideas well, dealing with human emotions and becoming sensitive to human frailties, learning to listen and respond appropriately, learning to make sound judgments, and cultivating empathy and compassion."

For more of these non-MCAT and GPA related criteria, check out
http://www.naahp.org/abstract_threeflat.htm

From reading this, I found out that

"The findings that 74 percent of the variance in graduation categories was not accounted for by the traditional preadmissions data for students in Group I and that more than 60 percent of the students in Group II are doing better than predicted by the discriminant model emphasizes the limitations of using traditional admissions variables in predicting progress of nontraditional students. "

WHAT?! 74% of the variance not accounted for by the traditional preadmissions data :eek: ??? I guess there goes the idea that those with highest MCATS and GPAS should always have the "spots" and under qualified URMs with lower scores bump those people from "their spots". Maybe Admissions committees find it necessary to consider other, non-numerical factors.

What does diversity have to do with empathy? Empathy by definition is being able to identify with "other than self". So how do you have to be a minority to identify with a minority?
 
BrettBatchelor said:
I was just proposing that instead of a blanket URM to those who have no intention of practicing in the underrepresented realm then why the boost. If the point is to get people to serve the URM community they should look more closely at the issue instead of just the heritage of the person.
Well, dammit, you are going to make me give up the argument I was going to make LJ make tomorrow! :laugh:

Practicing in an underserved community is only one way that someone can bring their perspective to the medical community. When you have a diverse group of people around you in medical school, you learn that not everyone is like you, not your peers, not your patients. It makes you appreciate that other people have skills and knowledge that they can share with you which can help you to better understand, empathize with, and interact with your patients, whose backgrounds are going to be very diverse. If you do not learn to meet your patients where they are, you will never be a fully competent clinician. People will hide things from you because they will not trust you enough to share pertinent information.

The other part of what I was going to get at tomorrow is that diversity isn't worth **** to patients in non-clinical practice. In that setting the patient benefits the most by having a provider with the highest technical competencies. But, you can't tell who will go into what specialties during the admissions process, so it's a moot point.
 
MoosePilot said:
What does diversity have to do with empathy? Empathy by definition is being able to identify with "other than self". So how do you have to be a minority to identify with a minority?
It's about establishing a peer group that can learn from each other and grow to appreciate varying perspectives and life experiences.
 
From my understanding, the whole point of recruiting URMs is to pump out more URM graduates to serve their community. So is the diversity for the benefit of the students in the class or the community after graduation? If they can demonstrate a commitment to do so fine. Same goes with ORM's wanting to serve underserved communities. Give them a bump to accomplish the goal.

I agree with your point that non-clinical medicine need not recruit. The pt only knows who their radiologist or pathologist was when they get the bill.
 
bananaface said:
It's about establishing a peer group that can learn from each other and grow to appreciate varying perspectives and life experiences.

It might be if anyone went to class and if while in class they did anything but passively absorb information from a monotonous power point lecture.

BS.
 
BrettBatchelor said:
From my understanding, the whole point of recruiting URMs is to pump out more URM graduates to serve their community. So is the diversity for the benefit of the students in the class or the community after graduation? If they can demonstrate a commitment to do so fine. Give them a bump to accomplish the goal.

I agree with your point that non-clinical medicine need not recruit. The pt only knows who their radiologist or pathologist was when they get the bill.
That may very well be the goal of some institutions. And, it isn't a bad goal to have. But, if these communities were not underserved, there would still be value to diversity within medicine, because of what a diverse student body can help to foster in terms of clinical competency, if correctly incubated. Clinical competency doesn't just come into play when a provider comes into contact with someone from a minority group. Every individual patient can benefit from an approachable and open minded provider.
 
BrettBatchelor said:
From my understanding, the whole point of recruiting URMs is to pump out more URM graduates to serve their community. So is the diversity for the benefit of the students in the class or the community after graduation? If they can demonstrate a commitment to do so fine. Same goes with ORM's wanting to serve underserved communities. Give them a bump to accomplish the goal.

I agree with your point that non-clinical medicine need not recruit. The pt only knows who their radiologist or pathologist was when they get the bill.
one thing i can put forward that has been mentioned on the forums before is that minorities tend to go to these places regardless of if they want to, as their performance and credentials at the end of med school tend to be lower, leaving them with little choice. and statistics show the lagging performance, so its not only my opinion. therefore, regardless of the stated goals of AA and minorities' desire to abide by them, the end result is the same. it mightve even been you who i first heard this from. whats to be thought of that?

of course i vehemently oppose AA but this is a point to consider. AA is a great concept for preventing a race blind society, conspiracy i tell you. bananaface diversity goes beyond skin color. i dont think exotic languages or food contribute much to medical education, and thats pretty much the extent of racial differences, at least outwardly. ceteris paribus, i will concede that patients would probably prefer a doctor of their own skin color. the problem is that its not ceteris paribus, not nearly.
 
MoosePilot said:
It might be if anyone went to class and if while in class they did anything but passively absorb information from a monotonous power point lecture.

BS.
Yes, I am sure that no one gets to know each other during medical school, having the same classes together for 2 years straight. And, no one is going to speak to each other on rotations either. Also, you will never ever address clinical competency in any context which could possibly allow for the exchange of ideas. :rolleyes:

You are such a pessimist. Ask your g/f if she has had to school anyone yet. $5 says she has. :p :laugh:
 
bananaface said:
Yes, I am sure that no one gets to know each other during medical school, having the same classes together for 2 years straight. And, no one is going to speak to each other on rotations either. Also, you will never ever address clinical competency in any context which could possibly allow for the exchange of ideas. :rolleyes:

You are such a pessimist. Ask your g/f if she has had to school anyone yet. $5 says she has. :p :laugh:

Ask her if she's had to school anyone on "hispanic issues"? I'll take that bet.
 
MoosePilot said:
Ask her if she's had to school anyone on "hispanic issues"? I'll take that bet.
share the wealth
 
Shredder said:
of course i vehemently oppose AA but this is a point to consider. AA is a great concept for preventing a race blind society, conspiracy i tell you. bananaface diversity goes beyond skin color. i dont think exotic languages or food contribute much to medical education, and thats pretty much the extent of racial differences, at least outwardly. ceteris paribus, i will concede that patients would probably prefer a doctor of their own skin color. the problem is that its not ceteris paribus, not nearly.
Of course diversity goes beyond skin color. That's a point that I was hitting on for a good portion of this thread. If you think that languages and food are the only obstacles to overcome, you going to have a whole lot of "fun" someday.
 
bananaface said:
I await my $5! :smuggrin:

:laugh:

Ok, we'll see. I'm sure she's school them, but I doubt it's been about hispanic issues. What hispanic issues?!
 
bananaface said:
Of course diversity goes beyond skin color. That's a point that I was hitting on for a good portion of this thread. If you think that languages and food are the only obstacles to overcome, you going to have a whole lot of "fun" someday.
obstacles? what obstacles? if you have 2 ppl of different skin color who have lived in the usa for generations, you can hardly say they will bring vastly different cultures to the table. ive had tons of experience in my earlier schooling with minorities--"fun" in other words. im sure much more than yourself. ive ridden buses with gang members and participated in cinco de mayo song and dance, valuable indeed. im not too interested in hearing stories from the hood when i go to med school, i go there to learn medicine. i think intellectual diversity is far more important even if everyone is of uniform skin color. the main differences are food, religion and language. these are the things that are environmentally determined vs genetically. and if youre going to consider where somebody grew up then you must also give reverse discrimination/AA to the white applicant who grew up in africa.

i want classmates who are smart and able, regardless of race. truly, youre still speaking pc and thats a language i dont comprehend
 
Shredder said:
obstacles? what obstacles? if you have 2 ppl of different skin color who have lived in the usa for generations, you can hardly say they will bring vastly different cultures to the table. ive had tons of experience in my earlier schooling with minorities--"fun" in other words. im sure much more than yourself. ive ridden buses with gang members and participated in cinco de mayo song and dance, valuable indeed. im not too interested in hearing stories from the hood when i go to med school, i go there to learn medicine. i think intellectual diversity is far more important even if everyone is of uniform skin color. the main differences are food, religion and language. these are the things that are environmentally determined vs genetically. and if youre going to consider where somebody grew up then you must also give reverse discrimination/AA to the white applicant who grew up in africa.

i want classmates who are smart and able, regardless of race. truly, youre still speaking pc and thats a language i dont comprehend
By "fun", I was referring to the utter horror that your clinical rotations are going to be unless you make an effort to acquire intrapersonal skills during school. If you bring this attitude to the table, your patients aren't going to respect you, much less trust you. And, what you learned in the classroom will be greatly depriciated in value because you lack the skills to apply it.
 
eh, makes no sense, and i wasnt aware this thread was about lecturing. besides, anyone who acts the same way on an online forum as he does in a professional setting needs to loosen up.
 
bananaface said:
She will go off on people who are being ignorant. Ask her to tell you about the time she schooled my friend Matt about the taco bus music. :D

Well, her answer was no. I accept installments :laugh:

Taco bus music?
 
Shredder said:
obstacles? what obstacles? if you have 2 ppl of different skin color who have lived in the usa for generations, you can hardly say they will bring vastly different cultures to the table. ive had tons of experience in my earlier schooling with minorities--"fun" in other words. im sure much more than yourself. ive ridden buses with gang members and participated in cinco de mayo song and dance, valuable indeed. im not too interested in hearing stories from the hood when i go to med school, i go there to learn medicine. i think intellectual diversity is far more important even if everyone is of uniform skin color. the main differences are food, religion and language. these are the things that are environmentally determined vs genetically. and if youre going to consider where somebody grew up then you must also give reverse discrimination/AA to the white applicant who grew up in africa.

i want classmates who are smart and able, regardless of race. truly, youre still speaking pc and thats a language i dont comprehend
Thanks for equating URM with Ghetto. You don't want to here stories from the hood? You've had classes with gang members? Because that's what being a minority is all about. People who are not URMs have these preconceived notions about URMs and being exposed to SUCCESSFUL AND INTELLIGENT URMs in a class room setting usually helps to soften these narrow-minded ideas. Further, if you were a URM who was not from the hood (they exist I promise) would you want to be treated by someone who assumed you had to have some gang affiliations or that you crawled from the deepest darkest pits of the ghetto? No. When I was at HCEM we were talking about health disparities and we started discussing the issue of getting minorities on organ donor lists. We watched a video about how in a community of blacks in Chicago, very very few diabetics were ever put on the donor list to receive a new kidney at their local hospital. When they did research to figure out why, it turns out that the clinicians thought blacks would just go back and eat the wrong foods and screw up the kidneys again. They felt since there were a limited number of kidneys, they should give them to the more appreciative whites who would make sure they stayed healthy afterwards. These stereotypes do affect access to health care; they could mean the difference between life and death for some patients. You just proved to me why diversity is so sorely needed in medicine
 
bananaface said:
By "fun", I was referring to the utter horror that your clinical rotations are going to be unless you make an effort to acquire intrapersonal skills during school. If you bring this attitude to the table, your patients aren't going to respect you, much less trust you. And, what you learned in the classroom will be greatly depriciated in value because you lack the skills to apply it.
:clap: :clap: Exactly! I'm glad you didn't let this thread degenerate into a, "minorities are all under qualified ghetto *****s" thread over night.
 
LadyJubilee8_18 said:
Thanks for equating URM with Ghetto.
isnt that the premise of AA? you can thank the Man for that one
 
Shredder said:
isnt that the premise of AA? you can thank the Man for that one
You know, there are many educated explanations for AA in this thread. If you'd like more information you can easily access it on pubmed, AAMC.org, NIH web sites, or really just google search it. Many on this thread keep posting about how AA is racism/BS or how none of it makes sense, but no one has offered any reasonable evidence that these points are not valid. This is not because every researcher is too scared to step on the toes of powerful minority groups (as suggested before), but because the counter arguments are not backed by truth. You refuse to educate yourself because education would invalidate your close-minded opinions and you still approach me with ignorant questions like this one--expecting me to give you a reasonable answer. If you want to know what AA is really about, take the time to look at the research that I worked so hard to post on this thread. Funny how you make assumptions about URMs lacking academic ability while you refuse to even read the bits of text I've posted.

In short: No, AA does not equate URM with Ghetto. It's up to you to find out why.
 
MoosePilot said:
I think that education opportunities for disadvantaged should be encouraged starting prior to grade school. Minorities and the disadvantaged should be recruited, but should have to compete for medical school on an even basis. For there to truly be an even basis, they need a good early education. I think our efforts should be concentrated there.
I think that this is the most sensible solution that anyone has proposed in all four pages of this thread. Here in FL, we've recently enacted voluntary pre-school for all four-year-olds. My only question is, why the h*** is it voluntary? We ought to enact MANDATORY pre-school for all children starting from when they are potty-trained. There is really no excuse for elementary school children who do not know how to read, write, or perform arithmetic. These disadvantaged students who are being passed through in grade school and high school never catch up, no matter how much preference you give them for their disadvantaged status later on in post-secondary school admissions. They show up in my chemistry courses every semester unable to write a complete sentence or perform a simple theoretical yield calculation. No one did these kids a favor by granting them a high school diploma when their academic skills are so poor. I am supposed to be a chemistry instructor, not a basic English, math, and computer skills instructor. But guess what I spend a lot of my time doing?

I'm more than willing to put my money where my mouth is. I have been a volunteer with underprivileged children (many of whom, but not all of whom, are URM) for most of my adult life. So here's a thought for y'all to throw around: If medical schools and the AAMC want to help disadvantaged children get on equal footing so much, why should they not require ALL pre-meds to do this kind of work? If tutoring underprivileged children were to become a requirement to get into medical school, all of a sudden you'd literally have tens of thousands of able and willing volunteer tutors across the nation. I can't always convince some of my self-centered adolescent pre-med students to work with children for altruistic reasons, but I sure can convince just about all of them to do it if I argue that doing it would help them get into medical school.

This solution is not perfect either. People should ideally help others because they want to do it and it's the right thing to do, not because they are coerced into doing it. But I do believe that the ends justify the means in this situation. I'm only one person. I can't do it all alone.
 
LadyJubilee8_18 said:
Thanks for equating URM with Ghetto.

Yet all your reasons for URMs getting lower scores has to do with being disadvantaged. :confused:
 
QofQuimica said:
I think that this is the most sensible solution that anyone has proposed in all four pages of this thread. Here in FL, we've recently enacted voluntary pre-school for all four-year-olds. My only question is, why the h*** is it voluntary? We ought to enact MANDATORY pre-school for all children starting from when they are potty-trained. There is really no excuse for elementary school children who do not know how to read, write, or perform arithmetic. These disadvantaged students who are being passed through in grade school and high school never catch up, no matter how much preference you give them for their disadvantaged status later on in post-secondary school admissions. They show up in my chemistry courses every semester unable to write a complete sentence or perform a simple theoretical yield calculation. No one did these kids a favor by granting them a high school diploma when their academic skills are so poor. I am supposed to be a chemistry instructor, not a basic English, math, and computer skills instructor. But guess what I spend a lot of my time doing?

I'm more than willing to put my money where my mouth is. I have been a volunteer with underprivileged children (many of whom, but not all of whom, are URM) for most of my adult life. So here's a thought for y'all to throw around: If medical schools and the AAMC want to help disadvantaged children get on equal footing so much, why should they not require ALL pre-meds to do this kind of work? If tutoring underprivileged children were to become a requirement to get into medical school, all of a sudden you'd literally have tens of thousands of able and willing volunteer tutors across the nation. I can't always convince some of my self-centered adolescent pre-med students to work with children for altruistic reasons, but I sure can convince just about all of them to do it if I argue that doing it would help them get into medical school.

This solution is not perfect either. People should ideally help others because they want to do it and it's the right thing to do, not because they are coerced into doing it. But I do believe that the ends justify the means in this situation. I'm only one person. I can't do it all alone.

I'm not really sure how requiring pre-school for children will do anything to help their performance later on in their academic careers. Are these children so disadvantaged that they are already behind the curve in Kindergarden? The problem is that their is absolutely no accountability anywhere in our educational system. Parents are not accountable, schools are not accountable (sorry No Child Left Behind), teachers are not accountable, and the children themselves are not held accountable. The system is broken from top to bottom, and requiring more school and dumping more money isn't going to solve anything. The problem is systemic, and is a direct result of our culture. If you have any ideas on how to fix that, I'm all ears.
 
QofQuimica said:
I think that this is the most sensible solution that anyone has proposed in all four pages of this thread. Here in FL, we've recently enacted voluntary pre-school for all four-year-olds. My only question is, why the h*** is it voluntary? We ought to enact MANDATORY pre-school for all children starting from when they are potty-trained. There is really no excuse for elementary school children who do not know how to read, write, or perform arithmetic. These disadvantaged students who are being passed through in grade school and high school never catch up, no matter how much preference you give them for their disadvantaged status later on in post-secondary school admissions. They show up in my chemistry courses every semester unable to write a complete sentence or perform a simple theoretical yield calculation. No one did these kids a favor by granting them a high school diploma when their academic skills are so poor. I am supposed to be a chemistry instructor, not a basic English, math, and computer skills instructor. But guess what I spend a lot of my time doing?

I'm more than willing to put my money where my mouth is. I have been a volunteer with underprivileged children (many of whom, but not all of whom, are URM) for most of my adult life. So here's a thought for y'all to throw around: If medical schools and the AAMC want to help disadvantaged children get on equal footing so much, why should they not require ALL pre-meds to do this kind of work? If tutoring underprivileged children were to become a requirement to get into medical school, all of a sudden you'd literally have tens of thousands of able and willing volunteer tutors across the nation. I can't always convince some of my self-centered adolescent pre-med students to work with children for altruistic reasons, but I sure can convince just about all of them to do it if I argue that doing it would help them get into medical school.

This solution is not perfect either. People should ideally help others because they want to do it and it's the right thing to do, not because they are coerced into doing it. But I do believe that the ends justify the means in this situation. I'm only one person. I can't do it all alone.

Early education is always going to be where the best investment is. It's like any investment - make it early and constant interest makes it pay. By the time a student gets to college, they're pretty much who they're going to be. If a student is even close to being capable of med school, they've turned out all right. The problem isn't that it doesn't start early, enough, in my opinion (which really is a form of quantity), but rather quality. I think teaching needs to become a high status job with accompanying pay and accompanying standards. I think every dollar we invest in *quality* elementary education will be saved elsewhere. We need to stop throwing our educational bucks away.
 
little_late_MD said:
I'm not really sure how requiring pre-school for children will do anything to help their performance later on in their academic careers. Are these children so disadvantaged that they are already behind the curve in Kindergarden? The problem is that their is absolutely no accountability anywhere in our educational system. Parents are not accountable, schools are not accountable (sorry No Child Left Behind), teachers are not accountable, and the children themselves are not held accountable. The system is broken from top to bottom, and requiring more school and dumping more money isn't going to solve anything. The problem is systemic, and is a direct result of our culture. If you have any ideas on how to fix that, I'm all ears.
My mom taught kindergarten. The kids who tended to do poorly on assessment were kids that had not been exposed to English before starting school or who had behavioral problems.

Academic expectations and curriculum vary from place to place. I went to a high school which had alot of kids from the inner city. Everyone had to take some college prep courses. On the other side of town there was an inner city school where my cousin went. If you showed up there you could get a C, no kidding. That place fired 5 principles one year when what they should have done was fire faculty who bought into the "if we make it hard they won't come to class" mentality. There needs to be an accountability system in place. It would help if there was a widescale curriculum standard. It is unlikely that a kid from that school could cut it at any 4 year college, unless they came out of the special ed classes, which were of higher quality than those offered to regular students.
 
LadyJubilee8_18 said:
You know, there are many educated explanations for AA in this thread. If you'd like more information you can easily access it on pubmed, AAMC.org, NIH web sites, or really just google search it. Many on this thread keep posting about how AA is racism/BS or how none of it makes sense, but no one has offered any reasonable evidence that these points are not valid. This is not because every researcher is too scared to step on the toes of powerful minority groups (as suggested before), but because the counter arguments are not backed by truth. You refuse to educate yourself because education would invalidate your close-minded opinions and you still approach me with ignorant questions like this one--expecting me to give you a reasonable answer. If you want to know what AA is really about, take the time to look at the research that I worked so hard to post on this thread. Funny how you make assumptions about URMs lacking academic ability while you refuse to even read the bits of text I've posted.

In short: No, AA does not equate URM with Ghetto. It's up to you to find out why.
thats a nice bombastic post, but you will find yourself unable to find any data indicating that urms have equal academic ability as orms. PC sites do not count as data. data means numbers, not twisted words. its typical for an irrational viewpoint to explicitly label others as uneducated or ignorant without actually stating why. concerning minority voters--they do vote, and the difference between them and majority voters is that minorities, especially blacks, vote on one issue: race. democrats use this to capture 90% or more of the black vote. its true that the federal govt is now controlled by the GOP, which brings me to: give it a few years and the conservative supreme court will overturn AA. no more sandra day to save the day. roberts, alito, scalia, (the other right winger), and even thomas will see to it. i suppose you would label him, powell and condi uncle toms
 
Shredder said:
thats a nice bombastic post, but you will find yourself unable to find any data indicating that urms have equal academic ability as orms. PC sites do not count as data. data means numbers, not twisted words. its typical for an irrational viewpoint to explicitly label others as uneducated or ignorant without actually stating why. concerning minority voters--they do vote, and the difference between them and majority voters is that minorities, especially blacks, vote on one issue: race. democrats use this to capture 90% or more of the black vote. its true that the federal govt is now controlled by the GOP, which brings me to: give it a few years and the conservative supreme court will overturn AA. no more sandra day to save the day. roberts, alito, scalia, (the other right winger), and even thomas will see to it. i suppose you would label him, powell and condi uncle toms
You are pretty much suggesting that URMs are just not as smart as ORMs. I can see from your posts, you obviously have preconceived, bigoted notions about certain ethnic groups and I could never convince you that AA or even diversity in medicine "makes sense". This is not about conservative vs liberal, it is about a specific topic. If you want to become informed, read. If you'd like to remain ignorant and bigoted (which it seems you do) be my guest, but don't expect me to engage you any longer.
 
Shredder said:
thats a nice bombastic post, but you will find yourself unable to find any data indicating that urms have equal academic ability as orms. PC sites do not count as data. data means numbers, not twisted words. its typical for an irrational viewpoint to explicitly label others as uneducated or ignorant without actually stating why. concerning minority voters--they do vote, and the difference between them and majority voters is that minorities, especially blacks, vote on one issue: race. democrats use this to capture 90% or more of the black vote. its true that the federal govt is now controlled by the GOP, which brings me to: give it a few years and the conservative supreme court will overturn AA. no more sandra day to save the day. roberts, alito, scalia, (the other right winger), and even thomas will see to it. i suppose you would label him, powell and condi uncle toms

There might not be good data about URMs as a whole, but I definitely know individual URMs that can show that individuals can be as smart as anybody. I just read the Ben Carson story about his life story starting in a disadvantaged background in inner city Detroit and rising to be the youngest Director of Pediatric Neurosurgery at Johns Hopkins. Or two of us that are disagreeing on here both count as URMs. My grades sucked because I'm lazy, but I still scored a 36 on the MCAT, which is above average. I don't know LJ's numbers, but she got into Baylor, which I envy, so I know she's got to be pretty impressive.
 
LadyJubilee8_18 said:
You are pretty much suggesting that URMs are just not as smart as ORMs. I can see from your posts, you obviously have preconceived, bigoted notions about certain ethnic groups and I could never convince you that AA or even diversity in medicine "makes sense". This is not about conservative vs liberal, it is about a specific topic. If you want to become informed, read. If you'd like to remain ignorant and bigoted (which it seems you do) be my guest, but don't expect me to engage you any longer.
that hinges on whether you would concede that urms are better in basketball, and largely football, than orms. instrinsically, that is. people are just different. its not about bigotry, its about objectivity. i will admit in a second that im simply not cut out for basketball, it would never happen. im not tall enough, quick enough, long arms enough, or jump high enough to do it, and no upbringing could have significantly changed these things about me. i have no qualms with coming to terms with these realities. nobody can account for the lack of AA in sports, and im sure you too will overlook this.

the truth is i want whats best for myself and for society and everybody. i dont think AA is an appropriate means to that end. the friction it creates is clear, on sdn and elsewhere. is that a desirable price to pay for AA? everything comes with a price tag, and all the prose and PC websites and articles in the world cannot change that, including this thread to "dispel myths". i dont see a whole lot of myths about AA. regardless of its cause, its effect is racial tension. i dont think the usa should propagate that through policies, judicial activism, and legislation. unless its a conspiracy, which ive proposed before. and its sad that people buy into it. also my notions are never preconceived, they are dynamic depending on the facts at hand. and i stress facts. its common for an unpersuasive participant in a discussion to label the other as inordinately obstinate (ignorant, uninformed, uneducated, bigoted, hateful, nazi--the grab bag of liberal escape routes). the easy way out, i know.

another phenomenon nobody can address is the success of japan, one of the most homogeneous (non-diverse, that is) areas on earth
 
MoosePilot said:
I definitely know individual URMs that can show that individuals can be as smart as anybody
i also know of a certain chinese man playing for the houston rockets, but i dont think nba recruiters will be scouring china on a daily basis any time soon. its about distributions and anomalies, it happens but it can be calculated with statistical precision to determine likelihood.

the fact that double standards exist is a slap in the face to urms, openly admitting that they cannot compete on an equal level. i have to state sincerely that AAs existence undermines my belief in LJs belonging at baylor. im sorry lj, its nothing against you personally but you can blame it on AA. and you can defend yourself all you want, but there are still doubts. such is the result, and im stating it which many people will not do even if they feel the same way. lets just be up front about things for once. and as always its preferable to leave emotions out to have civilized discourse. emotions and rationality dont mix.
 
Shredder said:
i also know of a certain chinese man playing for the houston rockets, but i dont think nba recruiters will be scouring china on a daily basis any time soon. its about distributions and anomalies, it happens but it can be calculated with statistical precision to determine likelihood.

the fact that double standards exist is a slap in the face to urms, openly admitting that they cannot compete on an equal level. i have to state sincerely that AAs existence undermines my belief in LJs belonging at baylor. im sorry lj, its nothing against you personally but you can blame it on AA. and you can defend yourself all you want, but there are still doubts. such is the result, and im stating it which many people will not do even if they feel the same way. lets just be up front about things for once. and as always its preferable to leave emotions out to have civilized discourse. emotions and rationality dont mix.

I agree about that unfortunate aspect of AA. I regret more the spiritual malaise that comes from being supported by another for too long. It's not healthy. It should always clearly be a hand up and not a handout. However, I do not agree that URMs are intrinsically poorer performing and exceptions are just statistical outliers. The fact that your supposed "outliers" are competitive with the outliers of any race is counter to that. If the URM curve was just shifted to the left, then their best would be as good as the above average of everyone else. That's not the case.
 
MoosePilot said:
I agree about that unfortunate aspect of AA. I regret more the spiritual malaise that comes from being supported by another for too long. It's not healthy. It should always clearly be a hand up and not a handout. However, I do not agree that URMs are intrinsically poorer performing and exceptions are just statistical outliers. The fact that your supposed "outliers" are competitive with the outliers of any race is counter to that. If the URM curve was just shifted to the left, then their best would be as good as the above average of everyone else. That's not the case.

Exactly my problem. I try not to get worked up when people suggest this, but it just hurts my feelings because this idea is so damaging. When ever I let people know how I did on the MCAT and my GPA, they always try to figure out how a black girl pulled it off. I haven't made anything less than an A- since I decided to pursue medicine Fall Sophomore year. I had a professor at my school tell me that I was lucky for this reason:
I'm part white (My g-ma is 75% French) so I can get high scores on tests and do well in school but since I look mostly black, I can take advantage of AA programs. You know, because that white part of me just jumps right out when I have to take an exam or do some homework. The same guy told me that when he walks into a lecture hall to teach, he sees all the dark faces and knows they will be at the bottom of the class at the end of the semester. If educators feel this way about minority students, it probably effects the caliber of education these students can achieve. I had the highest grade out of 200 students in my orgo class and people were just phucking baffled. Even when I tutored, many students were skeptical about my abilities. I always had to work extra hard to prove I wasn't just BSing my students. When you are an URM, people don't expect certain things from you and its hard to fight those ideas through out your academic career. Since my family is middle class, I know there are things that make the URM experience different from others across all socioeconomic boundaries. There are thing's I've been through that I'm sure others don't have to deal with. Examples:

My Uncle was lynched in Washington County (Texas) when I was 5,
I went to a private (predominantly white) school because the schools in my area didn't even have text books (they had pamphlets. NO JOKE),
In elementary, the other kids used to tell me to paint myself white to be in their clubs or ask me why black people smell so bad
My college roommate asked me to move out for a few days because her G-ma was visiting and she didn't want her to know she was rooming with a black girl.
Most recently, my Grandpa died because no one in Alexandria wanted to give dialysis to a poor Katrina evacuee (sorry, is it refugee?)
I already told you the story about my professor.

The list goes on and on. Don't think that the reason why minorities choose to pursue sports over academics is because they lack the ability to achieve academically. When you are told you aren't smart and the only way for you to be successful is to pick up a football or a b-ball, it really sinks in. Social pressures have a large effect on the choices people make.
 
little_late_MD said:
I'm not really sure how requiring pre-school for children will do anything to help their performance later on in their academic careers. Are these children so disadvantaged that they are already behind the curve in Kindergarden?
Actually, yes. When I started kindergarten, I could already read entire books. Some kids start kindergarten not even knowing their letters and numbers.
 
Wow what a great thread. It took me a while to get through it all, but I think I am caught up. For the most part everyone is being very civil, which is what I was hoping could happen on the thread a few days ago before it degenerated...

One thing that I might point out to everyone is the glaring discrepancy in research and references that have gone into the comments. Besides Lady_Jubliee, no one is doing their homework. Many comments have been insightful, but there are also many that are just opinions that represent common misconceptions.

Because this keeps happening for in this discussion, I have started working on putting together a website that summarizes the pertinant info dealing with URMs and healthcare. There are some sites out there but they are not in a format for general use, and I want it tailored to incoming students, since this policy has become important to all students.

A huge resource I have found is the report by the Sullivan Commision:

http://admissions.duhs.duke.edu/sullivancommission/index.cfm

Its quite long so I doubt many will read it, but if you are interested, check out the introduction (through page 13) which summarizes the major findings.

Also if anyone wants to contribute (and I want to include all viewpoints) please PM me.
 
LadyJubilee8_18 said:
Exactly my problem. I try not to get worked up when people suggest this, but it just hurts my feelings because this idea is so damaging. When ever I let people know how I did on the MCAT and my GPA, they always try to figure out how a black girl pulled it off. I haven't made anything less than an A- since I decided to pursue medicine Fall Sophomore year. I had a professor at my school tell me that I was lucky for this reason:
I'm part white (My g-ma is 75% French) so I can get high scores on tests and do well in school but since I look mostly black, I can take advantage of AA programs. You know, because that white part of me just jumps right out when I have to take an exam or do some homework. The same guy told me that when he walks into a lecture hall to teach, he sees all the dark faces and knows they will be at the bottom of the class at the end of the semester. If educators feel this way about minority students, it probably effects the caliber of education these students can achieve. I had the highest grade out of 200 students in my orgo class and people were just phucking baffled. Even when I tutored, many students were skeptical about my abilities. I always had to work extra hard to prove I wasn't just BSing my students. When you are an URM, people don't expect certain things from you and its hard to fight those ideas through out your academic career. Since my family is middle class, I know there are things that make the URM experience different from others across all socioeconomic boundaries. There are thing's I've been through that I'm sure others don't have to deal with. Examples:

My Uncle was lynched in Washington County (Texas) when I was 5,
I went to a private (predominantly white) school because the schools in my area didn't even have text books (they had pamphlets. NO JOKE),
In elementary, the other kids used to tell me to paint myself white to be in their clubs or ask me why black people smell so bad
My college roommate asked me to move out for a few days because her G-ma was visiting and she didn't want her to know she was rooming with a black girl.
Most recently, my Grandpa died because no one in Alexandria wanted to give dialysis to a poor Katrina evacuee (sorry, is it refugee?)
I already told you the story about my professor.

The list goes on and on. Don't think that the reason why minorities choose to pursue sports over academics is because they lack the ability to achieve academically. When you are told you aren't smart and the only way for you to be successful is to pick up a football or a b-ball, it really sinks in. Social pressures have a large effect on the choices people make.

Those are tough experiences, but I received a lot of the same kind of treatment as a poor white boy (I don't look Native American). I never had a family member lynched, but everything else is pretty much the same. I got accused of starting fires in grade school and I had to defend myself, because I was the kid in the shabby clothes.

My problem is that I think AA makes it worse and not better. AA basically tells people you're not smart enough. That's already what you're upset about, so how is it helpful?

The professor, what he said was wrong. He probably shouldn't have said that to you about the students at the bottom of the class, but at the same time, an observation isn't necessarily racists if he has seen it over and over. His comments on a white ancestor show that he thought it was genetic, which is stupid, but the simple phenemenon with no cause attributed is just an observation. It shows something needs to be done for those kids earlier, most likely. Maybe they can be helped in college, but help earlier will pay more, because it will keep them from ever getting behind.
 
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