Dispelling a few myths about AA, URMs, and medical admissions

[LadyJubilee8_18]

Smart ass. 10 - 4.4 - 3.5 = 2.1, by the way. I'm disappointed that you made that comment when the source of my numbers was posted and I quite clearly said "over 4" and "over 3", giving you the subtle hint to the fractional difference.

I was just screwing with you. I guess now I've been called a smart ass too

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[DrBowtie]

2. Look how we start to add qualifiers: most terrorists who have attacked the US from foreign nations in very recent history. (yes there are terrorist groups who attack US citizens from US soil).
3. You make it sound like people with 25 could, on an off chance, succeed but they are not likely to do so. The point of the thresholds is to pick people who will almost definitely succeed. What would adcoms have to gain by picking a bunch of people who can't do the work and who will not eventually become docs? All I'm saying is, I trust the judgment of the AMA, AAMC, and all the adcomes who decided this was the proper plan of action over you. I'm sorry if that offends you, but when people with more education, more resources, a vested interest in the subject, and have done more research have a different viewpoint than you do--you probably aren't correct.
4. People who have higher MCAT scores are more likely to have higher USMLE scores and do better on written tests. This is not the same thing as being more likely to have satisfied patients, being more able to inspire trust and loyalty from patients, being more open to the needs of others, having the drive to do whatever it takes to further the needs of health care, or being culturally competent enough to disregard prejudice when treating certain patients.
5. Is there evidence that cultural competence is needed? yes. Have there been instances where culturally incompetent doctors have compromised patient health and have cost people's lives? yes. Do I have some "Cultural Competence" quiz from quizland.com so that I can prove I have it and you don't? No Would it make you happier if I said "culturally competent doctors are 95% more qualified to serve the US population"? Again, very intelligent people subscribe to this idea (but maybe they are just trying to secure the minority vote again).


I wasn't suggesting that people have to experience everything in order to be empathetic, I was suggesting that if teaching cultural competence and sexual awareness can potentially prevent individuals from participating in these heinous acts, having to sit through a boring class is a small price to pay. The person who is raped or killed because of discrimination suffers much more than the person who has to sit through an hour long class.


Why is that funny? 200 years of slavery followed by 100 years of segrigation (and rampant lynchings) aren't funny to me. That's one...two...three centuries. That counts as centuries, right? And stifling right? Native Americans can claim similar setbacks. The US just hasn't been kind to certain groups


You're just one of those people who laughs at the notion that slavery and segregation/inequality ever existed? So how do you eliminate the disparities created by racial injustice if not by trying to rebuild the same specific racial communities? Can you find a better solution that does not have to target race specifically even though the prejudice did? You can't subjugate people based on race but then ignore race in the solution.



Nice how you tried to be so accurate with the Racism definition, but not with the definition of AA. I'll help:

Affirmative Action as explained by the AAMC:

The Association of American Medical Colleges is deeply committed to increasing diversity in medical schools. This commitment extends to increasing the number of minority physicians available to serve the nation's ever-growing minority population, expanding areas of research undertaken by medical academics, and raising the general cultural competence of all physicians.

On June 23, 2003, the United States Supreme Court upheld affirmative action in university admissions, permitting the nation's medical schools to continue developing a physician workforce that truly mirrors our society. The AAMC has analyzed the implications for medical schools and offers guidance to help schools enhance diversity.

Let me guess, too PC?

I would say it is too PC. It doesn't explain the mechanism for the goal.

 

[MoosePilot]

2. Look how we start to add qualifiers: most terrorists who have attacked the US from foreign nations in very recent history. (yes there are terrorist groups who attack US citizens from US soil).
3. You make it sound like people with 25 could, on an off chance, succeed but they are not likely to do so. The point of the thresholds is to pick people who will almost definitely succeed. What would adcoms have to gain by picking a bunch of people who can't do the work and who will not eventually become docs? All I'm saying is, I trust the judgment of the AMA, AAMC, and all the adcomes who decided this was the proper plan of action over you. I'm sorry if that offends you, but when people with more education, more resources, a vested interest in the subject, and have done more research have a different viewpoint than you do--you probably aren't correct.
4. People who have higher MCAT scores are more likely to have higher USMLE scores and do better on written tests. This is not the same thing as being more likely to have satisfied patients, being more able to inspire trust and loyalty from patients, being more open to the needs of others, having the drive to do whatever it takes to further the needs of health care, or being culturally competent enough to disregard prejudice when treating certain patients.
5. Is there evidence that cultural competence is needed? yes. Have there been instances where culturally incompetent doctors have compromised patient health and have cost people's lives? yes. Do I have some "Cultural Competence" quiz from quizland.com so that I can prove I have it and you don't? No Would it make you happier if I said "culturally competent doctors are 95% more qualified to serve the US population"? Again, very intelligent people subscribe to this idea (but maybe they are just trying to secure the minority vote again).

2. There are qualifiers, but only so the data will be unquestionable. I'm only concerned with terrorism vs. North America, but I'd get the same result if I said all terrorism except S. American narco-terrorism and European separatist terrorism. Show me anything that says that most terrorists in the world aren't Muslims right now. Do you believe that?

3. Ok, if URMs have about an 88% grad rate and all others have a greater than 95% grad rate, how would you account for the difference? The lower stats have nothing to do with it, I'm sure. It's probably all the discrimination they face in the medical school. All of your classmates asking if you're a gang member has to get distracting.

4. You said I had factually incorrect statements. We are distinguishing between facts and your opinions still, aren't we? Or is my every disagreement with your opinion a factually incorrect statement?

5. Listen to my point. I don't think you can come up with any objective measure to show who is culturally competent and who isn't. Subjective measures are unfair, because of the political climate. The white boys are going to get labeled as "incompetent" (do you get why I don't like cultural competence now? what is the opposite of competent?). That subjectivity is what I object to in all those smart people who think cultural competence is so important. They'll sit up there and lecture at me about something, without taking into account the fact that I might have thought about it before.

I wasn't suggesting that people have to experience everything in order to be empathetic, I was suggesting that if teaching cultural competence and sexual awareness can potentially prevent individuals from participating in these heinous acts, having to sit through a boring class is a small price to pay. The person who is raped or killed because of discrimination suffers much more than the person who has to sit through an hour long class.

Ok, do you really think a cultural competence class is going to make it less likely for a med student to rape or kill someone?

Why is that funny? 200 years of slavery followed by 100 years of segrigation (and rampant lynchings) aren't funny to me. That's one...two...three centuries. That counts as centuries, right? And stifling right? Native Americans can claim similar setbacks. The US just hasn't been kind to certain groups

You're just one of those people who laughs at the notion that slavery and segregation/inequality ever existed? So how do you eliminate the disparities created by racial injustice if not by trying to rebuild the same specific racial communities? Can you find a better solution that does not have to target race specifically even though the prejudice did? You can't subjugate people based on race but then ignore race in the solution.

It's funny that you'd see the need to ask the question. I thought I made that clear with the comments about the holocaust and the moon landing.

No, I'm not one of those people and your accusation is. You got a better start than I did, quit acting like you've been so put upon.

How do you eliminate disparities? By eliminating disparities, not by creating offsetting disparities. Don't build or rebuild separatist groups. Let people associate with whomever they choose to, but give every citizen an equal chance. "You can't subjugate..."? Well, since I didn't, I'm pretty comfortable with that. Since I didn't sujugate anyone, I'm pretty happy just making sure I don't participate in their subjugation (by assumptions that they're incapable and need assistance to achieve) today.

Nice how you tried to be so accurate with the Racism definition, but not with the definition of AA. I'll help:

Affirmative Action as explained by the AAMC:

The Association of American Medical Colleges is deeply committed to increasing diversity in medical schools. This commitment extends to increasing the number of minority physicians available to serve the nation's ever-growing minority population, expanding areas of research undertaken by medical academics, and raising the general cultural competence of all physicians.

On June 23, 2003, the United States Supreme Court upheld affirmative action in university admissions, permitting the nation's medical schools to continue developing a physician workforce that truly mirrors our society. The AAMC has analyzed the implications for medical schools and offers guidance to help schools enhance diversity.

Let me guess, too PC?

Nope. Mine wasn't two paragraphs long. Theirs is fine, but it still boils down to, "Allow race as a qualification apart from any measure of achievement." and that's what I see as bull****.

Every qualification needed to get into med school is something the applicant had to do. The applicant had to earn a GPA, had to take the MCAT, had to volunteer, shadow, lead, whatever. Some of them had to do all that while facing opposition. He didn't have to be born with black skin, red skin, or light brown skin. Which one of these is different from the others?

Heck, I'd be ok with a racial paragraph. Do you know that when I checked disadvantaged, I had to write a paragraph explaining how. When I checked Native American, that was the end of it. I never had to say that I knew anything about Native Americans, that I'd ever experienced racism, or anything.

You know the best protest? Encouraging everyone to check a URM box. They're freebies, no proof generally required. Pick the one closest to your skin tone and destroy the program.

 

[MissMary]

Mossepilot:AA in med school: Actively admitting URMs over others based solely on their race and specifically when they probably wouldn't have gotten in due to MCAT, GPA, ECs, and LORs.

Every comment you make about AA suggests that you believe that URMs who are accpeted in med school are largely unqualified or inferior to nonURMs. Do you really think that? Do you think that adcoms are incapable of determining for themselves if a candidate is a good fit for med school and their institution? You do realize that URMs have to go thru the same process as nonURMs to even be considered for placement. You act as tho spots are handed down to URMs.

And all the discsussion on gangs and terrorists really needs to stop. You made a very ugly and racist comment and then proceeded to try to justify it by likening it to being up-to-date on matters of US security. No one denies that some blacks are involved in gang-related activity and some arabs in terrorist activities, but to suggest, even for a moment, that its okay to treat ppl according to prominent stereotypes is wrong and unfortunate. Shame on you for even attempting to justify that idea.

 

[MoosePilot]

I was just screwing with you. I guess now I've been called a smart ass too

Definitely. That one is a term of endearment

 

[MoosePilot]

Every comment you make about AA suggests that you believe that URMs who are accpeted in med school are largely unqualified or inferior to nonURMs. Do you really think that? Do you think that adcoms are incapable of determining for themselves if a candidate is a good fit for med school and their institution? You do realize that URMs have to go thru the same process as nonURMs to even be considered for placement. You act as tho spots are handed down to URMs.

And all the discsussion on gangs and terrorists really needs to stop. You made a very ugly and racist comment and then proceeded to try to justify it by likening it to being up-to-date on matters of US security. No one denies that some blacks are involved in gang-related activity and some arabs in terrorist activities, but to suggest, even for a moment, that its okay to treat ppl according to prominent stereotypes is wrong and unfortunate. Shame on you for even attempting to justify that idea.

I'm fairly familiar with the admissions process for URM. Caught up to the conversation, yet?

I don't think they're (WE ARE, whatever you want me to say) unqualified or inferior. I think that a large percentage of applicants to med schools are qualified. Right now med schools skim the cream off the top of the pool, leading to extremely high graduation rates. My problem is that they take into account unearned qualifications for URMs. How did you earn your URM status? It's also a qualification that's largely to wholly irrelevant to being a doctor. We've already established that you don't have to undergo something in order to understand or empathize with it, but somehow you have to be a URM to understand the minority experience?

It really needs to stop, huh? That's my frickin' problem. If I say anything that's not factual, I'll accept correction. I have shown that by changing my opinion when merited. Why are you afraid to face the truth? I've documented that in 1996 most gang members qualified as URMs for med school admission. I've claimed that most terrorists are Muslim without reference, but I don't believe anyone has really disputed that. If you'd like to go hunting for a terrorist census, you're more than welcome.

What about those things is racist? Can the truth be racist?

 

[MissMary]

huh? im talking about how you choose to TREAT people, not what the numbers are. treating all arabs like terrorists is wrong and discriminatory. no matter what the numbers are. not all arabs are terrorists and some of us choose to acknowledge that.

something tells me you would be singing a different tune if you were an arab. being treated like a criminal just because you were poor, didnt make you feel good, yet you think its okay to treat others that way. like i said: shame on you.

 

[Diggs]

hey all,
NO AA:
http://home.sandiego.edu/~e_cook/vault/medical/irvine/uci-med-97.html

AA:http://home.sandiego.edu/~e_cook/vault/medical/irvine/uci-med-94.html

You decide!!!

Is it worth it???
UCLA before AA was cancled:

http://home.sandiego.edu/~e_cook/vault/medical/losangeles/ucla-med-95.html

 

[LadyJubilee8_18]

2. There are qualifiers, but only so the data will be unquestionable. I'm only concerned with terrorism vs. North America, but I'd get the same result if I said all terrorism except S. American narco-terrorism and European separatist terrorism. Show me anything that says that most terrorists in the world aren't Muslims right now. Do you believe that?

3. Ok, if URMs have about an 88% grad rate and all others have a greater than 95% grad rate, how would you account for the difference? The lower stats have nothing to do with it, I'm sure. It's probably all the discrimination they face in the medical school. All of your classmates asking if you're a gang member has to get distracting.

4. You said I had factually incorrect statements. We are distinguishing between facts and your opinions still, aren't we? Or is my every disagreement with your opinion a factually incorrect statement?

5. Listen to my point. I don't think you can come up with any objective measure to show who is culturally competent and who isn't. Subjective measures are unfair, because of the political climate. The white boys are going to get labeled as "incompetent" (do you get why I don't like cultural competence now? what is the opposite of competent?). That subjectivity is what I object to in all those smart people who think cultural competence is so important. They'll sit up there and lecture at me about something, without taking into account the fact that I might have thought about it before.




Ok, do you really think a cultural competence class is going to make it less likely for a med student to rape or kill someone?



It's funny that you'd see the need to ask the question. I thought I made that clear with the comments about the holocaust and the moon landing.

No, I'm not one of those people and your accusation is. You got a better start than I did, quit acting like you've been so put upon.

How do you eliminate disparities? By eliminating disparities, not by creating offsetting disparities. Don't build or rebuild separatist groups. Let people associate with whomever they choose to, but give every citizen an equal chance. "You can't subjugate..."? Well, since I didn't, I'm pretty comfortable with that. Since I didn't sujugate anyone, I'm pretty happy just making sure I don't participate in their subjugation (by assumptions that they're incapable and need assistance to achieve) today.



Nope. Mine wasn't two paragraphs long. Theirs is fine, but it still boils down to, "Allow race as a qualification apart from any measure of achievement." and that's what I see as bull****.

Every qualification needed to get into med school is something the applicant had to do. The applicant had to earn a GPA, had to take the MCAT, had to volunteer, shadow, lead, whatever. Some of them had to do all that while facing opposition. He didn't have to be born with black skin, red skin, or light brown skin. Which one of these is different from the others?

Heck, I'd be ok with a racial paragraph. Do you know that when I checked disadvantaged, I had to write a paragraph explaining how. When I checked Native American, that was the end of it. I never had to say that I knew anything about Native Americans, that I'd ever experienced racism, or anything.

You know the best protest? Encouraging everyone to check a URM box. They're freebies, no proof generally required. Pick the one closest to your skin tone and destroy the program.

You take things very personally. By "You can't subjugate..." I meant people or nations--not you specifically. Sorry if my language was unclear. When you say you eliminate disparities by eliminating disparities, I'd say you haven't outlined a clear mechanism for eliminating racially based disparities without addressing race. How can you say I had a better start than you did? Was I raised in a middle class home, yes, but apart from that you know nothing about me. My parents could be horrible alcoholics who were verbally and physically abusive. I could have been molested or raped. I could also have grown up in a healthy, middle class family with 2.5 kids and endless opportunities. The point is, you have no idea. And I have no idea about you; I would not make the assumption that you had it better than me for any reason or that I had it better than you. Fortunately, for the purposes of AA in medical admissions, the goal is not to help the individual applicant, it’s to help society as a whole. It isn’t about who had it better or worse--it’s about what can be done to produce a physician population that is best able to serve the community. I guess where our opinions differ is whether or not the ends justify the means. In any case, this has been a huge sink-hole of time and I have to get some work done. Maybe we'll continue later.

 

[MoosePilot]

huh? im talking about how you choose to TREAT people, not what the numbers are. treating all arabs like terrorists is wrong and discriminatory. no matter what the numbers are. not all arabs are terrorists and some of us choose to acknowledge that.

something tells me you would be singing a different tune if you were an arab. being treated like a criminal just because you were poor, didnt make you feel good, yet you think its okay to treat others that way. like i said: shame on you.

How do I choose to treat people? Do you know? Do you know me?

Treating all Arabs like terrorists is wrong. I'd agree.

A little off topic, but it might be worth it to elucidate on how I think.

Americans are Americans. In my opinion, if you want to be American, you need to prioritize that over whatever you were prior to you or your ancestors coming here. Right now, America is at war with Muslim fundamentalist terrorists and our way of life is at stake. Our enemy is mostly using recognizeably Middle Eastern terrorists to do the attacks.

I think we should ask the Americans of Middle Eastern background to tolerate more frequent security checks for the safety of everyone. Everyone shares the inconvenience of random checks and I think that should continue.

I wouldn't favor rounding up all the Americans of Middle Eastern background and putting them in camps. A little security screen (that I get every time I go without being on orders, despite showing my military ID) is a minor inconvenience.

Shame on you for being unthinking and a sheep.

 

[MissMary]

hey all,
NO AA:
http://home.sandiego.edu/~e_cook/vault/medical/irvine/uci-med-97.html

AA:http://home.sandiego.edu/~e_cook/vault/medical/irvine/uci-med-94.html

You decide!!!

Is it worth it???
UCLA before AA was cancled:

http://home.sandiego.edu/~e_cook/vault/medical/losangeles/ucla-med-95.html

i dont think you can actually come to a worthwile conclusion based on data from one school that only takes into consideration MCAT and GPA.

 

[LadyJubilee8_18]

I would say it is too PC. It doesn't explain the mechanism for the goal.

Welcome back , sorry I have to go. Maybe it was too PC. We'll talk about the mechanism later

 

[MoosePilot]

You take things very personally. By "You can't subjugate..." I meant people or nations--not you specifically. Sorry if my language was unclear. When you say you eliminate disparities by eliminating disparities, I'd say you haven't outlined a clear mechanism for eliminating racially based disparities without addressing race. How can you say I had a better start than you did? Was I raised in a middle class home, yes, but apart from that you know nothing about me. My parents could be horrible alcoholics who were verbally and physically abusive. I could have been molested or raped. I could also have grown up in a healthy, middle class family with 2.5 kids and endless opportunities. The point is, you have no idea. And I have no idea about you; I would not make the assumption that you had it better than me for any reason or that I had it better than you. Fortunately, for the purposes of AA in medical admissions, the goal is not to help the individual applicant, it’s to help society as a whole. It isn’t about who had it better or worse--it’s about what can be done to produce a physician population that is best able to serve the community. I guess where our opinions differ is whether or not the ends justify the means. In any case, this has been a huge sink-hole of time and I have to get some work done. Maybe we'll continue later.

I took it personally on purpose. There is no nation apart from the people. We're not even requiring the Iraqi people to pay for the war crimes they committed 10 years ago (a group of POWs who were tortured during Desert Storm won damages against Iraq in a US court, while the US held all of their assets, but President Bush wouldn't award the money, because it would hurt their chances of rebuilding). If I didn't subjugate the people and the average applicant didn't subjugate the people, how can you make them pay for the fix? I don't believe the ends justify the means.

You're right, I don't know you. Your middle class background immediately puts you ahead of me in many ways. As to the rest, we could compare war stories, but I'm basing it primarily on your financial advantages.

 

[Bernito]

I think it would have been a crappy protest. Akin to not voting in an election. Nobody sees the point, nothing happens.

Well we disagree. Protests are limited by the protestor. But I do "see" it. I see that you had a chance to stand up for something you believed in. You are cynical, but you should not underestimate the impact of leading by example. At the least, your arguments here would have much more weight if you hadn't checked URM.

My point is that it's the background that makes me unique. I want the kid who is the poor white part of me to have the same chance as the kid who is the poor Indian part of me. It's important to me to note what the applicant has gone through. My children hopefully won't have the same background I do, I don't want them to have the same consideration for it that I did.

The URM checkbox is there b/c they are looking to recruit you for your "NA" background, not your "poor" background. (i.e. if you were poor and white you'd be left out. I know you know this, I am just making my point explicit). Med schools are looking to recruit people who are disadvantaged because of race and are aiming to serve people who are disadvantaged because of race, your income does not directly play in as a factor.

Disadvantaged is not the best word because people always want to equate it to socioeconomic status, but it is much more than that. The disadvantages of URMs are the myriad of factors (discrimination, present and historical, conscious and unconscious, unequal resources, lack of role models, distrust of the system, etc.) that are leading to minorities not pursuing medical education (for students) or not have adequate healthcare (for patients). If being part NA is a big part of your life, and specifically if you plan to work in underserved areas or turn around and help other URMs like you pursue medicine, than checking off URM is appropriate. But if you are doing it only because you were poor growing up, than in fact you are someone that this system did not intend to check URM.

What I am leading to is that URM recruitment is vastly different than AA. Like AA, URM recruitment aims at dealing with underlying discrepancies in student access to medical education; but, more importantly, it is a step towards dealing with a larger healthcare issue. This is such a huge issue that has sociological and economical implications that I can't even begin to get into b/c I could not do it justice. But if we are going to understand the problem we should be educated about the problem beforehand. As I pointed out before, a good resource is the report by the Sullivan commission.

http://admissions.duhs.duke.edu/sullivancommission/index.cfm

It is a result of discussions like these (except of people more experienced in the health care industry, not lowly applicants as ourselves) and large amount of research. I am going to have a summary of it up soon, but I will hope people will go look at it on their own. But as budding Drs, we need to understand the future of healthcare in order to fill the changing health needs of our society, and this is the future of healthcare in the US.

 

[Diggs]

http://home.sandiego.edu/~e_cook/vault/medical/sanfrancisco/ucsf-med-97.html

would it not be better to have a class which looked more like this... If all schools were like this AA would not even be debated

 

[MoosePilot]

i dont think you can actually come to a worthwile conclusion based on data from one school that only takes into consideration MCAT and GPA.

No, because there's nothing to cloak the favoritism. That's why I focus on MCAT and GPA. Why assume that a certain group of pre-meds do radically more non-numerical work when it's not documented? Yet that's always what happens. People assume they must have been off running hospitals or something

 

[MoosePilot]

http://home.sandiego.edu/~e_cook/vault/medical/sanfrancisco/ucsf-med-97.html

would it not be better to have a class which looked more like this... If all schools were like this AA would not even be debated

You think? Even though the URM percent chance of admissions is so much higher and their qualifications as show there are noticeably lower? It's better than some of the others, but still ugly.

 

[MoosePilot]

Well we disagree. Protests are limited by the protestor. But I do "see" it. I see that you had a chance to stand up for something you believed in. You are cynical, but you should not underestimate the impact of leading by example. At the least, your arguments here would have much more weight if you hadn't checked URM.


The URM checkbox is there b/c they are looking to recruit you for your "NA" background, not your "poor" background. (i.e. if you were poor and white you'd be left out. I know you know this, I am just making my point explicit). Med schools are looking to recruit people who are disadvantaged because of race and are aiming to serve people who are disadvantaged because of race, your income does not directly play in as a factor.

I am racially NA, I am not culturally NA. I have no NA background. I don't look NA. I don't know where a reservation is, let alone what it's like there (except through talking with people who do know). So what did they get for their AA?

 

[Diggs]

You think? Even though the URM percent chance of admissions is so much higher and their qualifications as show there are noticeably lower? It's better than some of the others, but still ugly.

but at least they are all within the white/asian range...It is easier to draw a circle around the accepted range and not notice many URMs outside of it...

 

[MoosePilot]

but at least they are all within the white/asian range...It is easier to draw a circle around the accepted range and not notice many URMs outside of it...

I agree. It's much better, but even the circles are black and white. It's just pathetic that's all we can judge each other on.

 

[Diggs]

I am racially NA, I am not culturally NA. I have no NA background. I don't look NA. I don't know where a reservation is, let alone what it's like there (except through talking with people who do know). So what did they get for their AA?

people like you are the reason why AA sux... You are the low of low when it comes to people that claim AA b/c, you can claim it and, live like a regular white guy... What makes it worse is that you are againt it which is pretty annoying

 

[LadyJubilee8_18]

I think we should ask the Americans of Middle Eastern background to tolerate more frequent security checks for the safety of everyone. Everyone shares the inconvenience of random checks and I think that should continue.

Sorry to post this when I said I was going to go but I couldn’t phucking resist (but then this is the reason why I haven’t done much work all day)

Ok, so Americans are Americans. Right now, many Americans suffer from health disparities because all Americans are not equally represented in medicine. These disparities threaten our way of life. It has been studied and shown that we can correct many of these disparities by admitting more of certain Americans into US medical schools. I think we should ask Americans of ORM background to tolerate more frequent admission of URMs into medicine to promote the health of everyone. Everyone shares the inconvenience of having more qualified applicants than seats in medical school and I think that should continue.

 

[MoosePilot]

Sorry to post this when I said I was going to go but I couldn’t phucking resist (but then this is the reason why I haven’t done much work all day)

Ok, so Americans are Americans. Right now, many Americans suffer from health disparities because all Americans are not equally represented in medicine. These disparities threaten our way of life. It has been studied and shown that we can correct many of these disparities by admitting more of certain Americans into US medical schools. I think we should ask Americans of ORM background to tolerate more frequent admission of URMs into medicine to promote the health of everyone. Everyone shares the inconvenience of having more qualified applicants than seats in medical school and I think that should continue.

No, you're trying to separate them. All Americans are at risk from terrorism. It's not at all the same.

Imagine you're the last guy who doesn't get selected to any allo med school. Would you regard that as equivalent to getting screened at the airport? It's no big deal, right? You just move on to a career as a PA, a lawyer, a scientist...

 

[MoosePilot]

people like you are the reason why AA sux... You are the low of low when it comes to people that claim AA b/c, you can claim it and, live like a regular white guy... What makes it worse is that you are againt it which is pretty annoying

Tough luck, buddy. That's my protest.

"...live like a regular white guy..."? How is that, exactly? I think someone needs cultural competence training.

 

[LadyJubilee8_18]

people like you are the reason why AA sux... You are the low of low when it comes to people that claim AA b/c, you can claim it and, live like a regular white guy... What makes it worse is that you are againt it which is pretty annoying

This is not a flame war thread. While I can understand your frustrations, it's unfair to make personal attacks. I'd like this to be the one relatively civil AA thread.

 

[Diggs]

Tough luck, buddy. That's my protest.

"...live like a regular white guy..."? How is that, exactly? I think someone needs cultural competence training.

ok good bye...

 

[MoosePilot]

This is not a flame war thread. While I can understand your frustrations, it's unfair to make personal attacks. I'd like this to be the one relatively civil AA thread.

Thanks. I added to my explanation of why I didn't think your analogy was good. It's parallel, but I think the costs levvyed against the group of Americans who have to pay for the correction are different in the two examples.

 

[LadyJubilee8_18]

No, you're trying to separate them. All Americans are at risk from terrorism. It's not at all the same.

So the sacrifice is not worth promoting the good health of a large chunk of the American population? Who cares how many minorities suffer (or die) because no one wants to provide them health care?

I would argue that all Americans suffer when disparities effect a certain group. When people don't have resources, they take them from those who do. You say all Americans are at risk from terrorism, but is that true? Are terrorist more likely to attack some random place in Arizona or Washington DC? Why should the Arabs and Iraqis have to settle for random security checks in Arizona?

 

[MoosePilot]

So the sacrifice is not worth promoting the good health of a large chunk of the American population? Who cares how many minorities suffer (or die) because no one wants to provide them health care?

I would argue that all Americans suffer when disparities effect a certain group. When people don't have resources, they take them from those who do. You say all Americans are at risk from terrorism, but is that true? Are terrorist more likely to attack some random place in Arizona or Washington DC? Why should the Arabs and Iraqis have to settle for random security checks in Arizona?

Why is their health at risk? Is it race or is it socioeconomic status? There are successful URMs. Is their health at risk? So what is the actual causal factor of the risk? Is it the racial background or the socioeconomic status? There is an undeniable correlation, but if we separate them to whatever extent that's possible, I think we find that poor whites and poor minorities suffer from lack of health care, while richer whites and minorities have fewer problems.

As for the terrorist issue, I think suiting the number of checks to the risk level of the location is smart. Keep it random so the terrorists have less opportunity to use it against us, but I don't think we need as stringent security for the interior. However, someone could board a jet full of fuel bound from Phoenix (a hub) to somewhere distant and run it into something that would make a lot of publicity (like the Luxor... imagine the pics). Do you know some of the 911 hijackers trained in OK? They don't ignore the middle of the country altogether.

 

[MissMary]

Moosepilot:I think that Arabs and Iraqis have done a lot to earn the current distrust they suffer under. Gang members have done a lot to ruin the reputation of minorities, just like the Klan has done for whites. It's no surprise that gangs are associated with minorities. Don't blame people who see an obvious association, blame the gang members and work towards a solution to street crime.


In case you have forgetten, you made this comment after Lady J and I questioned another poster about his assumption that all minorities are gang members.

In any case, I don't know how you treat ppl, but I do know that you have suggested that arabs (because some arabs are involved in terrorism) deserve to be treated the way they are and that its appropriate to assume that all minorities are gang members just because many of them are.

Like I told you before, I don't treat all ppl from a racial group a certain way because of the acts of some of their members. That goes for whites, abrabs, native americans...... Anyone that does, is unfortunate

Shame on you for being unthinking and a sheep.

Funny how no one on this thread resorted to calling you names. You would think that a 31 year old man would be above that by now...guess not.


You never really told me if you were opposed to gender-based AA and its role in providing access to educational and financial resources to women. You did state that gender-based AA is not used in medical school, but after you were promptly corrected, you never offered any further comments.

The reason I don't think assessments made solely on numbers is sufficient is because these numbers have not been directly correlated to the quality of a physcian. BY quality i mean factors such as: patient satisfaction, ability to develop trusting relationships with patients, competency in reading diagnostic tests and diagnosing illnesses.....etc

Your middle class background immediately puts you ahead of me in many ways.

Some people feel that whites are immediately put ahead of minorities in many ways because historically they have not been denied access to resources and did not suffer under racism for centeries. Is your assumption more valid than this one?

 

[little_late_MD]

Racial identities are important because people make them so. It's for the same reason that money is important--because people make it so. We happen to live in a society that has allways and will always be obsessed with race. Race and ethnicity matters to people before all other differences--especially because this difference will never change. I am an artist, I am a student, I am pre-med, I am a young, I am politically aware--but any of these attributes could (and probably will change) in the next ten years. I have always been and I will always be black. I have been raised in a certain culture and I have experienced certain things because I am black. If we had a group meeting today and I walked into the room, the first thing you would notice is that I'm black. It's how people function in this country. Race is important because it's like that and that's the way it is (in the words of RUN DMC). We all know it.

You are so right here that it isn't even funny. The reason race is important at all is because we make it important. Identity politics are destroying the very fabric of this country. Unfortunately, you are falling into the very pattern of behaviour that propagates it. Every policy that favors one group over another, gives special consideration to one group over another, gives preferences to arbitrary genetic mutations eats away at the notion of "America" that we all pay lipservice to. Unless you were raised in another country, I'm not quite sure how your culture is any different than the white guy down the street. And if you walked into a meeting with me, I can guarantee you I wouldn't give a whit about your skin color. Most likely the first thing I would notice is whether or not you were good looking. Sorry, it's in my male chromosomes.

Why does race matter? Because the same people who say that it shouldn't matter are the usually the first ones to defend their race.


Also, just a small correction. Michael Jackson has gone from one of the darkest brothers I have known to whiter than a February morning. There is no guarantee that you will still be black in 10 years

As for other forms of diversity, medical schools do try to recruit students of diverse experiences. They encourage students with different majors to apply. They ask all kinds of questions in interviews and on secondaries about your unique, individual experience. They even include a PERSONAL statement. As mentioned before 26% of admissions is determined by numbers. the other 76% could not possibly be determined ONLY by race.

Yes, but there is no field on any application that I know of that says "Other Diversity: Please check one: __Libertarian __Acrobat __Vegetarian __Salsa Dancer" Cleary more attention is paid to race than any other factor in the diversity genre. Funny, since race is the one thing applicants cannot control.

 

[MoosePilot]

Moosepilot:I think that Arabs and Iraqis have done a lot to earn the current distrust they suffer under. Gang members have done a lot to ruin the reputation of minorities, just like the Klan has done for whites. It's no surprise that gangs are associated with minorities. Don't blame people who see an obvious association, blame the gang members and work towards a solution to street crime.


In case you have forgetten, you made this comment after Lady J and I questioned another poster about his assumption that all minorities are gang members.

In any case, I don't know how you treat ppl, but I do know that you have suggested that arabs (because some arabs are involved in terrorism) deserve to be treated the way they are and that its appropriate to assume that all minorities are gang members just because many of them are.

Like I told you before, I don't treat all ppl from a racial group a certain way because of the acts of some of their members. That goes for whites, abrabs, native americans...... Anyone that does, is unfortunate

Funny how no one on this thread resorted to calling you names. You would think that a 31 year old man would be above that by now...guess not.

You never really told me if you were opposed to gender-based AA and its role in providing access to educational and financial resources to women. You did state that gender-based AA is not used in medical school, but after you were promptly corrected, you never offered any further comments.

The reason I don't think assessments made solely on numbers is sufficient is because these numbers have not been directly correlated to the quality of a physcian. BY quality i mean factors such as: patient satisfaction, ability to develop trusting relationships with patients, competency in reading diagnostic tests and diagnosing illnesses.....etc

Some people feel that whites are immediately put ahead of minorities in many ways because historically they have not been denied access to resources and did not suffer under racism for centeries. Is your assumption more valid than this one?

I said they (as a race) did a lot to earn the distrust they're under. Is it any different than the whites having earned the turnaround they're experiencing now? You are advocating that, aren't you? By their ancestors actions they've earned the chance for their kids to have to acheive more in order to get into med school? Or is that not what you're saying.

I feel so guilty about calling you a name. After all, you telling me shame on me is somehow different than calling me shameful I would have thought you would have learned differently... no, I wouldn't, because I've already seen your behavior in the other thread.

Promptly corrected? I didn't see a correction. Was there ever gender based AA like the current mode of racially based AA? Or were women just allowed in when they had been kept out?

Do you actually think that the fairly light color of my skin is as valuable as the difference between poverty level income and middle class income? If you think so, say so. Maybe I miss stuff like that, looking white (actually mostly a pinkish tan, but whatever), but I don't think I could have gotten treated much worse as a kid beyond being actually lynched, so I don't think so. My class president was probably 100% Native American. He didn't seem to have any problems.

 

[LadyJubilee8_18]

Some people feel that whites are immediately put ahead of minorities in many ways because historically they have not been denied access to resources and did not suffer under racism for centeries. Is your assumption more valid than this one?

 

[Bernito]

I am racially NA, I am not culturally NA. I have no NA background. I don't look NA. I don't know where a reservation is, let alone what it's like there (except through talking with people who do know).

NAs are recruited to improve the care of NAs specifically through cultural understanding. More often than not racially NA = culturally NA. Your situation is the exception, not the rule. This shows that URM recruitment is not perfect (in fact URM recruitment alone has not been enough, URMs in medicine have been going down). Along with other measures that are being instituted, it will work towards its intended goal.

But I might venture to say the fact that you are not culturally NA, as you say, has an affect on your opinion towards URM recruitment.

So what did they get for their AA?

Please clarify this statement.

 

[Bernito]

Unless you were raised in another country, I'm not quite sure how your culture is any different than the white guy down the street.

So b/c you are not sure how cultures are different means they are not different? This exact lack of cross cultural understanding is why the recruitment of URMs is being emphasized.

FYI - many people living in the states were raised in another country, or raised by parents raised in another country.

 

[LadyJubilee8_18]

You are so right here that it isn't even funny. The reason race is important at all is because we make it important. Identity politics are destroying the very fabric of this country. Unfortunately, you are falling into the very pattern of behaviour that propagates it. Every policy that favors one group over another, gives special consideration to one group over another, gives preferences to arbitrary genetic mutations eats away at the notion of "America" that we all pay lipservice to. Unless you were raised in another country, I'm not quite sure how your culture is any different than the white guy down the street. And if you walked into a meeting with me, I can guarantee you I wouldn't give a whit about your skin color. Most likely the first thing I would notice is whether or not you were good looking. Sorry, it's in my male chromosomes.

Why does race matter? Because the same people who say that it shouldn't matter are the usually the first ones to defend their race.


Also, just a small correction. Michael Jackson has gone from one of the darkest brothers I have known to whiter than a February morning. There is no guarantee that you will still be black in 10 years

The MJ comment was cute.

Anyway, though I agree race matters because people make it matter, I don't agree we should get rid of programs like AA because having AA adds to discrimination or perpetuates awareness of race. The rest of the country is not going to ignore race because we got rid of AA. Racial discrimination is not going to end, and Blacks and Hispanics certainly are not going to stop being subject to racially-based health disparities because adcoms decided to erase the universal color line. If you and I were in a gun fight and suddenly in the middle, I decided I didn't agree with violence and I threw away my gun knowing you still intended on shooting me, I'd be in a world of trouble. There is a problem that needs to be addressed BECAUSE of racial discrimination. Why do we have to start ignoring race now that the effort is to correct the maladies left by racism?

Yes, but there is no field on any application that I know of that says "Other Diversity: Please check one: __Libertarian __Acrobat __Vegetarian __Salsa Dancer" Cleary more attention is paid to race than any other factor in the diversity genre. Funny, since race is the one thing applicants cannot control.

Right because the applications would be freakin long and you'd spend hours trying to wade through the hundreds of "diversity" boxes. This is impractical. It is more practical to just mention how you are unique in personal statements, essays, experience sections, and interviews. They don't leave space for these things for no reason.

 

[MoosePilot]

NAs are recruited to improve the care of NAs specifically through cultural understanding. More often than not racially NA = culturally NA. Your situation is the exception, not the rule. This shows that URM recruitment is not perfect (in fact URM recruitment alone has not been enough, URMs in medicine have been going down). Along with other measures that are being instituted, it will work towards its intended goal.

But I might venture to say the fact that you are not culturally NA, as you say, has an affect on your opinion towards URM recruitment.


Please clarify this statement.

I think the fact that I'm not culturally NA does affect my opinion, but I'm glad. I think it detracts from a cultural group's success when they get together and decide that they deserve preference due to their membership. I'm glad I have not been indoctrinated into that, except to some extent due to financial hardships. I do feel like I overcame something in overcoming my economic background, but I regret that I feel like I deserve special consideration for it, because I think "special consideration" generally handicaps more than it helps.

What did they get if they admitted me when they would not have if I had not checked the NA box? Most of my NA knowledge comes more from being an Oklahoman, taking college courses in the subject, and not being prejudiced against the Native American.

I think my situation is going to become more common as time goes on. My mom grew up in a much, much rougher world than I did. She was severely abused, mistreated, and didn't graduate HS. She had my oldest sister when she was 16 after getting married at 14 or 15. Her brothers would be arrested for vagrancy if they left the house without money in their pockets. My main experience was the poverty that comes down through the years. The NA background was a rumor, but how is that a surprise when I've only met 1 of my 4 grandparents? Some of you obviously think growing up "white" is somehow an enormously empowering experience, but I'm not culturally NA because my family was in pieces, not because we could "pass" as white!

All I know is what I've been alive for and snippets I've heard from my mother. I know I've never oppressed anyone and I don't feel like I owe anything to anyone. You all seem to have a different experience and it's so far from what I understand of equity as to be a different philosophical system, where races make deposits and withdrawals from a karmic treasury...

 

[MissMary]

Americans are Americans. In my opinion, if you want to be American, you need to prioritize that over whatever you were prior to you or your ancestors coming here.

I think this comment is a bit crude. As a very proud Nigerian I don't think its necessary for individuals with ethnic backgrounds to deny this part of themselves because we live in America. Its funny because your comment is not very "American" if you ask me. One of the beautiful things about this country is that there is a wealth of cultures here. I live in NYC and I love that I can walk down the street and hear 5 different languages before I even hit the end of the block. I consider myself an American AND a Nigerian. I dont feel compelled in any way to prioritize one over the other.

This country will only become more diverse culturally. There must be enough culturally aware doctors to be able to treat them. I work at Columbia NYPH (which is in Washington Heights, a largely Spanish neighborhood) and every time I go to consent patients I wish I spoke Spanish as many of them are Spanish speaking. I am determined to become fluent in Spanish and maybe other languages because it will make me more capable of dealing with this increasingly diverse patient population. The thing is not all current physicans are dedicated to making personal changes in order to care for ethinic populations better, so there is still a need for physicans from diverse backgrounds and who are willing to take the courses needed to make them more cultually sensitive.

 

[MoosePilot]

The MJ comment was cute.

Anyway, though I agree race matters because people make it matter, I don't agree we should get rid of programs like AA because having AA adds to discrimination or perpetuates awareness of race. The rest of the country is not going to ignore race because we got rid of AA. Racial discrimination is not going to end, and Blacks and Hispanics certainly are not going to stop being subject to racially-based health disparities because adcoms decided to erase the universal color line. If you and I were in a gun fight and suddenly in the middle, I decided I didn't agree with violence and I threw away my gun knowing you still intended on shooting me, I'd be in a world of trouble. There is a problem that needs to be addressed BECAUSE of racial discrimination. Why do we have to start ignoring race now that the effort is to correct the maladies left by racism?

I think a big part of the difference is that you're counting timelines based on the nation or on races, while I'm counting it based on generations.

I have only been alive for 31 years. My family had jack squat, so it's not like we had some corporation that owed a lot of it's profitability to slave labor of 120 years ago. How do *I* or the poor white kid down the road, owe African Americans anything? Especially African Americans who are in a higher socioeconomic class? Why does a rich African American get a break on qualifications when compared to a poor white who had to work his way through school? Is that scenario conceivable? How do you justly account for stuff like that? Is his race more important than what he's actually gone through, experienced, and overcome?

 

[little_late_MD]

Why do we have to start ignoring race now that the effort is to correct the maladies left by racism?

At some point we are going to have to start ignoring race to evolve as a civilization. Yes, we do need to end discrimination, but I disagree that emphasizing racial identities is the way to do it.

I think we both agree that the system we have now is nowhere close to perfect. However, I believe that one day we are going to move beyond race as a necessary factor for determining merit. My questions for you are: how long do you think this system we have now will be adequate, and what is the next step?

 

[MoosePilot]

I think this comment is a bit crude. As a very proud Nigerian I don't think its necessary for individuals with ethnic backgrounds to deny this part of themselves because we live in America. Its funny because your comment is not very "American" if you ask me. One of the beautiful things about this country is that there is a wealth of cultures here. I live in NYC and I love that I can walk down the street and hear 5 different languages before I even hit the end of the block. I consider myself an American AND a Nigerian. I dont feel compelled in any way to prioritize one over the other.

This country will only become more diverse culturally. There must be enough culturally aware doctors to be able to treat them. I work at Columbia NYPH (which is in Washington Heights, a largely Spanish neighborhood) and every time I go to consent patients I wish I spoke Spanish as many of them are Spanish speaking. I am determined to become fluent in Spanish and maybe other languages because it will make me more capable of dealing with this increasingly diverse patient population. The thing is not all current physicans are dedicated to making personal changes in order to care for ethinic populations better, so there is still a need for physicans from diverse backgrounds and who are willing to take the courses needed to make them more cultually sensitive.

And I think yours should be basis to lose your citizenship, if it means what I interpret it to mean. If Nigeria were to go to war against the US, which side would you be on? Do you know?

I'm not talking culture, I'm talking loyalty. All cultures are part of America, it's why we're great. When it comes down to it, are you Nigerian or American? I'm sure you'll hedge, but the truth is in this world, it sometimes comes down to choosing.

 

[Bernito]

I think the fact that I'm not culturally NA does affect my opinion, but I'm glad. I think it detracts from a cultural group's success when they get together and decide that they deserve preference due to their membership.

Wow, so no empathy towards NAs? I mean of all people, they may have it (present tense) the worst.

I am not trying to belittle your experience. Unfortunately poverty in and of itself is not a problem that medical schools and the healthcare system are trying to address. So you should realize that is the case, if, as you say, you do get in b/c of checking URM.

And I think yours should be basis to lose your citizenship, if it means what I interpret it to mean. If Nigeria were to go to war against the US, which side would you be on? Do you know?

I'm not talking culture, I'm talking loyalty. All cultures are part of America, it's why we're great. When it comes down to it, are you Nigerian or American? I'm sure you'll hedge, but the truth is in this world, it sometimes comes down to choosing.

This is ridiculous.

 

[MoosePilot]

I woke up in this world in April 1974. I actually only can remember consciousness to about 1977 or 78. As I see it, I came in with no debts and no accounts owed to me. I started accruing debts to my parents as they took care of me, more, in fact, than I can ever pay back, so I have to work off my debt to my future children. I owe my country, because I was born into a place with electricity, clean water, sewage, clean streets, immunizations, etc. I'm paying that back now.

My nation has been around since 1770s. It might be considered to have debts, but if it's going to pay them, it has to pay them from it's own accounts. Equal protection under the law means that it can't unfairly shift those debts from it to a portion of its people.

I don't believe in my race. I reject the idea. After all, which debts will I owe to that mythical group? My mom's maiden name is German, so I might have German debts, which are big beyond imagining, but I might also have Jewish ancestry, so maybe I'm owed. I have Native American ancestry, so maybe I am owed a part of this whole country, taken from my people, but I'm also white, I guess I owe it, too.

I'm a modern American. I'm a mix and I shouldn't get to pick and choose what I'm owed and what I owe. I pay my taxes and I serve my country. My country needs to pay its debts out of that, not in additional hidden taxes to certain of its citizens who've only had 20-30 years to accrue their own debts.

 

[MoosePilot]

This is ridiculous.

Because you don't understand it? Or because you refuse to acknowledge it?

 

[MissMary]

MoosepilotAnd I think yours should be basis to lose your citizenship, if it means what I interpret it to mean. If Nigeria were to go to war against the US, which side would you be on? Do you know?

wow. lose my citizenship? because i refuse to choose between calling myself Nigerian or American? wow.

Anyway, little late MD: I think it would be hard to set a date when URM recruiting will no longer be needed esp since we cannot set a date on when racism will end or when minorities will have the same access to healthcare as non-minorities do. gender-based AA in education has been phasing out because women now have nearly the same access to educational resources and position as men do (although some feminists may disagree). I suspect that when minorities are on the same playing field as non-minorities, these types of policies will become obsolete

 

[little_late_MD]

I think this comment is a bit crude. As a very proud Nigerian I don't think its necessary for individuals with ethnic backgrounds to deny this part of themselves because we live in America.

Nigerian as in you were born in Nigeria, or as in your ancestory is from there? If you were born in America, then aren't you an American? I'm not really so sure why so many people are resistant to that label.

Eventually as the generations continue, most people lose the "proud" cultural connections their ancestors brought here. Two hundred years ago there were thousands upon thousands of Germans who didn't speak English or understand "American" culture. Less than a hundred years ago it was folks from the Pacific regions. Now it is South Americans. Eventually everyone assimalates. Immigrants come to this nation, and add their native cultures to our own American culture. Sure they remember where they came from, but they are even more proud of where they are. What tends to cause trouble is when people refuse to meld into the culture of their emigrant nation. Racial tensions get worse instead of better, and the populus is polarized. You have to look no further than France last month for evidence of this.

 

[Bernito]

And I think yours should be basis to lose your citizenship, if it means what I interpret it to mean. If Nigeria were to go to war against the US, which side would you be on? Do you know?

I'm not talking culture, I'm talking loyalty. All cultures are part of America, it's why we're great. When it comes down to it, are you Nigerian or American? I'm sure you'll hedge, but the truth is in this world, it sometimes comes down to choosing.

This is ridiculous

Because you don't understand it? Or because you refuse to acknowledge it?

Because you have stopped using logic.

 

[MissMary]

I woke up in this world in April 1974. I actually only can remember consciousness to about 1977 or 78. As I see it, I came in with no debts and no accounts owed to me. I started accruing debts to my parents as they took care of me, more, in fact, than I can ever pay back, so I have to work off my debt to my future children. I owe my country, because I was born into a place with electricity, clean water, sewage, clean streets, immunizations, etc. I'm paying that back now.

My nation has been around since 1770s. It might be considered to have debts, but if it's going to pay them, it has to pay them from it's own accounts. Equal protection under the law means that it can't unfairly shift those debts from it to a portion of its people.

I don't believe in my race. I reject the idea. After all, which debts will I owe to that mythical group? My mom's maiden name is German, so I might have German debts, which are big beyond imagining, but I might also have Jewish ancestry, so maybe I'm owed. I have Native American ancestry, so maybe I am owed a part of this whole country, taken from my people, but I'm also white, I guess I owe it, too.

I'm a modern American. I'm a mix and I shouldn't get to pick and choose what I'm owed and what I owe. I pay my taxes and I serve my country. My country needs to pay its debts out of that, not in additional hidden taxes to certain of its citizens who've only had 20-30 years to accrue their own debts.

i'm not sure what youre getting at with this post. just say what you want to say and skip the storytelling...please....

 

[little_late_MD]

Anyway, little late MD: I think it would be hard to set a date when URM recruiting will no longer be needed esp since we cannot set a date on when racism will end or when minorities will have the same access to healthcare as non-minorities do. gender-based AA in education has been phasing out because women now have nearly the same access to educational resources and position as men do (although some feminists may disagree). I suspect that when minorities are on the same playing field as non-minorities, these types of policies will become obsolete

I just hope that by that point, the identity politics haven't gotten so bad that different races all believe that America owes them something, or that institutions will always be against race X, no matter what.

 

[MoosePilot]

wow. lose my citizenship? because i refuse to choose between calling myself Nigerian or American? wow.

Not at all. It's not the calling that's the thing, except that calling is often related to being. If Nigeria went to war against the US, would you bomb something here in service to Nigeria? If you were in Nigeria would you bomb something for the US? Would you just remain neutral and enjoy the US because it's nicer here (which is probably the common self-serving answer).