Dispelling a few myths about AA, URMs, and medical admissions

[MoosePilot]

i'm not sure what youre getting at with this post. just say what you want to say and skip the storytelling...please....

Sorry, I didn't take into account the fact that your reading comprehension is probably not up to the task. Try again, I made my point.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[LadyJubilee8_18]

I think a big part of the difference is that you're counting timelines based on the nation or on races, while I'm counting it based on generations.

I have only been alive for 31 years. My family had jack squat, so it's not like we had some corporation that owed a lot of it's profitability to slave labor of 120 years ago. How do *I* or the poor white kid down the road, owe African Americans anything? Especially African Americans who are in a higher socioeconomic class? Why does a rich African American get a break on qualifications when compared to a poor white who had to work his way through school? Is that scenario conceivable? How do you justly account for stuff like that? Is his race more important than what he's actually gone through, experienced, and overcome?

When I say we need to remedy the ailments left behind by racism, I mean we need to adequatly take care of those populations who face health disparities because of past racism. I don't think anyone *owes* anyone anything. It is not about the individual applicant--it's about the American population (you like patriatism, right? ) You could say all disparities are results of socio-economic factors, but this is not necessarily true. Even if it was, many minorities continue to live in traditionally minority neighborhoods. Before the civil righs movement, these neighborhoods were of low socio-economic status because of racism (I'll pretend all that changed as soon as civil rights legislation was passed for the sake of arguement). When the injustice was lifted and everyone was considered equal ( ) in 1965-70 or so, certain ethnic groups were left with poorer neighborhoods while others were not. They started from a lower socioeconomic level. Furthermore, we have seen examples of how cultural differences can lead to health disparities. The example with the diabetics in Chicago, the Native American child, there are language barriers, the list goes on. It would be farse to say that all these disparities result because of money issues. Contrary to popular belief, racism and racial disparities do still exist (William Benit did not suggest aborting all the white babies would lower the crime rate).

Two questions for you:
In your mind, what makes a qualified physician (and a qualified physician population).

and

What is the best scenario?

AA is based on socio-economic status. Poor Whites, Indians, Asians, Blacks, Hispanics, Greens, Reds, Purples, Martians, and Androids are all give "breaks" on admissions because adcoms understand they didn't have the same resources as richer people. As a result of ignoring race, certain racially based disparities still exist AND people are getting into medical school with lower numbers (fewer qualifications?), but now poorer people have a better chance to compete with the rich.

No AA exists and people with the highest numbers are admitted to medical school. Ideally, these are the people who worked the hardest to get what they want--you can be sure they really earned it. However, these individuals are only 2.5% likely to go into primary care once they become physicians. They are brilliant! All very smart, know their diagnostic tests, made A++s in biochem and anatomy, rocked the boards, but couldn't tell an Asian from a Puerto Rican. Since neither race nor socioeconomic status are considered, these physicians are mostly White, Asian, and Asian Indian. They had the best resources, so you know they were very wealthy and they have no desire to work in those dilapidated inner-cities. They also have no experience with people of other races and are not familiar with the problems facing poorer Americans. As a result, they over saturate very specialized residencies and only work in wealthy suburban communities. Eventually, economic incentives have to be created to lure these go-getters into underserved communities and that drives up the cost of health care making it less accessible.

AA exists in the current model and people of all backgrounds (ethnic, socioeconomic, and other) are recruited by adcoms. Though some qualified applicants (high numbers) are not accepted to their top choice schools, priority is placed on creating a population that knows how to interact with individuals from all walks of life and who can adapt to the needs of society. Some less qualified applicants (lower numbers) are accepted to achieve these goals, but thresholds are set in order to ensure accepted students are capable. Retention rate for all students is around 90%, so very few seats go to waste.

 

[MissMary]

Nigerian as in you were born in Nigeria, or as in your ancestory is from there? If you were born in America, then aren't you an American? I'm not really so sure why so many people are resistant to that label.

Eventually as the generations continue, most people lose the "proud" cultural connections their ancestors brought here. Two hundred years ago there were thousands upon thousands of Germans who didn't speak English or understand "American" culture. Less than a hundred years ago it was folks from the Pacific regions. Now it is South Americans. Eventually everyone assimalates. Immigrants come to this nation, and add their native cultures to our own American culture. Sure they remember where they came from, but they are even more proud of where they are. What tends to cause trouble is when people refuse to meld into the culture of their emigrant nation. Racial tensions get worse instead of better, and the populus is polarized. You have to look no further than France last month for evidence of this.

not to be rude at all, but i cant help but laugh at your post. im sorry. here's my reply:

1. i was born here. my parents came here in the 80's. they have since been granted citizenship.

2. i'm not resistent to the American label AT ALL. in fact i'll say it now: I AM AMERICAN. however I AM ALSO NIGERIAN. MY culture is not entirely like that of black-americans or white-americans. my culture is a blend. in order for me to acknowledge who i am, i must acknowledge both cultural influences

3. Yes foreigners do learn to assimilate, but your assumption that they are "even more proud of where they are" is faulty. May I ask what your cultural background is? I don't think racial tension are worsing because ppl refuse to "meld" their true culture into this new culture. I think its because small minded ppl refuse to acknowledge and appreciate these other cultures.

Thanks for proving my prior point: many ppl are in dire need of cultural sensitivity training.


(I'm not nec. saying you are!!)

 

[LadyJubilee8_18]

At some point we are going to have to start ignoring race to evolve as a civilization. Yes, we do need to end discrimination, but I disagree that emphasizing racial identities is the way to do it.

I think we both agree that the system we have now is nowhere close to perfect. However, I believe that one day we are going to move beyond race as a necessary factor for determining merit. My questions for you are: how long do you think this system we have now will be adequate, and what is the next step?

I agree, this system is far from perfect but it's a step. We need to correct the education system so that every person, regardless of race or socioeconomic status, understands his capabilities (i.e. blacks aren't only good at b-ball. You'd be surprised at how many black youth feel this is their only ticket to success) and has access to the best available education. Once we implement programs to make sure everyone is on equal ground, the number of minority applicants will increase and AA will not be needed. I don't know how long this will take, but it certainly doesn't seem that many people are taking steps to correct the education system. I disagree with AA in the absence of other disparity-leveling mechanisms. AA is not enough.

 

[LadyJubilee8_18]

And I think yours should be basis to lose your citizenship, if it means what I interpret it to mean. If Nigeria were to go to war against the US, which side would you be on? Do you know?

I'm not talking culture, I'm talking loyalty. All cultures are part of America, it's why we're great. When it comes down to it, are you Nigerian or American? I'm sure you'll hedge, but the truth is in this world, it sometimes comes down to choosing.

Wow, this is a little rough. She is Nigerian American. These are the same kinds of arguments that landed the Japanese in internment camps.

 

[MoosePilot]

When I say we need to remedy the ailments left behind by racism, I mean we need to adequatly take care of those populations who face health disparities because of past racism. I don't think anyone *owes* anyone anything. It is not about the individual applicant--it's about the American population (you like patriatism, right? ) You could say all disparities are results of socio-economic factors, but this is not necessarily true. Even if it was, many minorities continue to live in traditionally minority neighborhoods. Before the civil righs movement, these neighborhoods were of low socio-economic status because of racism (I'll pretend all that changed as soon as civil rights legislation was passed for the sake of arguement). When the injustice was lifted and everyone was considered equal ( ) in 1965-70 or so, certain ethnic groups were left with poorer neighborhoods while others were not. They started from a lower socioeconomic level. Furthermore, we have seen examples of how cultural differences can lead to health disparities. The example with the diabetics in Chicago, the Native American child, there are language barriers, the list goes on. It would be farse to say that all these disparities result because of money issues. Contrary to popular belief, racism and racial disparities do still exist (William Benit did not suggest aborting all the white babies would lower the crime rate).

Two questions for you:
In your mind, what makes a qualified physician (and a qualified physician population).

and

What is the best scenario?

AA is based on socio-economic status. Poor Whites, Indians, Asians, Blacks, Hispanics, Greens, Reds, Purples, Martians, and Androids are all give "breaks" on admissions because adcoms understand they didn't have the same resources as richer people. As a result of ignoring race, certain racially based disparities still exist AND people are getting into medical school with lower numbers (fewer qualifications?), but now poorer people have a better chance to compete with the rich.

No AA exists and people with the highest numbers are admitted to medical school. Ideally, these are the people who worked the hardest to get what they want--you can be sure they really earned it. However, these individuals are only 2.5% likely to go into primary care once they become physicians. They are brilliant! All very smart, know their diagnostic tests, made A++s in biochem and anatomy, rocked the boards, but couldn't tell an Asian from a Puerto Rican. Since neither race nor socioeconomic status are considered, these physicians are mostly White, Asian, and Asian Indian. They had the best resources, so you know they were very wealthy and they have no desire to work in those dilapidated inner-cities. They also have no experience with people of other races and are not familiar with the problems facing poorer Americans. As a result, they over saturate very specialized residencies and only work in wealthy suburban communities. Eventually, economic incentives have to be created to lure these go-getters into underserved communities and that drives up the cost of health care making it less accessible.

AA exists in the current model and people of all backgrounds (ethnic, socioeconomic, and other) are recruited by adcoms. Though some qualified applicants (high numbers) are not accepted to their top choice schools, priority is placed on creating a population that knows how to interact with individuals from all walks of life and who can adapt to the needs of society. Some less qualified applicants (lower numbers) are accepted to achieve these goals, but thresholds are set in order to ensure accepted students are capable. Retention rate for all students is around 90%, so very few seats go to waste.

I do think this the best scenario. If it's about advantages and disadvantages, make it that, not some shorthand subsitute for that. All those specialists will suffer economic issues inherent in the flooding of a specialty market. Schools already protect against this by limiting the number of specialty residencies and I don't see that changing. Those two things will insure the same mix we've got now. Then the government needs to fund whatever doctors for underserved areas if that is desired. That way the cost is born equally by all citizens (or at least as equally as our tax laws allow, which is a while 'nother argument).

What about a recent immigrant from Nigeria? What kind of discrimination did her family suffer while in Nigeria during the days prior to civil rights in the US? What history do immigrants have with slavery and how is it relevant to US med school admissions? Why is someone who immigrated from Nigeria in 1980 preferred over someone who immigrated from Vietnam in 1980?

Bernito actually posted a really good link in another discussion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grutter_v._Bollinger

The article makes the point that it's "diversity" vs. "equal protection". One is constitutionally guaranteed, the other is just a recent thought as to something we need as a society.

 

[MoosePilot]

Wow, this is a little rough. She is Nigerian American. These are the same kinds of arguments that landed the Japanese in internment camps.

The arguments then assumed all the Japanese Americans were loyal to the Japanese. I say that there are times when you have to pick.

 

[MissMary]

I just hope that by that point, the identity politics haven't gotten so bad that different races all believe that America owes them something, or that institutions will always be against race X, no matter what.

Well I think that America does owe blacks something and it certainly owes NA something. I don't think al races in America think that they are owed anything other than what they are entitled to as a citizen or resident.

I dont think there will be any dramatic changes to institutionalized racism anytime soon, but I am hopefuly

 

[MissMary]

I just hope that by that point, the identity politics haven't gotten so bad that different races all believe that America owes them something, or that institutions will always be against race X, no matter what.

Well I think that America does owe blacks something and it certainly owes NA something. I don't think all races in America think that they are owed anything other than what they are entitled to as a citizen or resident. i hope it doesnt get to that point too.

I dont think there will be any dramatic changes to institutionalized racism anytime soon, but I am hopefuly

 

[LadyJubilee8_18]

I just hope that by that point, the identity politics haven't gotten so bad that different races all believe that America owes them something, or that institutions will always be against race X, no matter what.

This post reminds me of a Chris Rock quote. He said, "If you're black in this country, America is like the Uncle who paid your way through college but molested you." So true. I owe so much of my success to this country because I'm American but I also owe so much of the problems I face to this country because I'm African American. It's a weird reality.

 

[MoosePilot]

I dont think there will be any dramatic changes to institutionalized racism anytime soon, but I am hopefuly

We agree on something!

 

[MissMary]

What about a recent immigrant from Nigeria? What kind of discrimination did her family suffer while in Nigeria during the days prior to civil rights in the US? What history do immigrants have with slavery and how is it relevant to US med school admissions? Why is someone who immigrated from Nigeria in 1980 preferred over someone who immigrated from Vietnam in 1980?

starting to feel like a broken record......do you really think that ppl understoon my parents to be nigerian? nope. they were treated just as badly as other blacks. and when i started to attend school, did my nigerian heritage ever prevent me from being called a ni**er or being discriinated against? nope. i am black and i am treated prejudiciously as other blacks and minorities are.

you're a different situation. you dont look NA and were probably not treated as a NA and you didnt have to suffer thru the same things that other NAs did.

 

[LadyJubilee8_18]

I do think this the best scenario. If it's about advantages and disadvantages, make it that, not some shorthand subsitute for that. All those specialists will suffer economic issues inherent in the flooding of a specialty market. Schools already protect against this by limiting the number of specialty residencies and I don't see that changing. Those two things will insure the same mix we've got now. Then the government needs to fund whatever doctors for underserved areas if that is desired. That way the cost is born equally by all citizens (or at least as equally as our tax laws allow, which is a while 'nother argument).

What about a recent immigrant from Nigeria? What kind of discrimination did her family suffer while in Nigeria during the days prior to civil rights in the US? What history do immigrants have with slavery and how is it relevant to US med school admissions? Why is someone who immigrated from Nigeria in 1980 preferred over someone who immigrated from Vietnam in 1980?

Bernito actually posted a really good link in another discussion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grutter_v._Bollinger

The article makes the point that it's "diversity" vs. "equal protection". One is constitutionally guaranteed, the other is just a recent thought as to something we need as a society.

Those were three different scenarios, I would just like you to pick the best one (I guess I should have made them bulleted). If you think none of them are ideal, please pick the one that is closest to ideal and amend it accordingly. Also, what is your definition of "quality physician"?

 

[MoosePilot]

starting to feel like a broken record......do you really think that ppl understoon my parents to be nigerian? nope. they were treated just as badly as other blacks. and when i started to attend school, did my nigerian heritage ever prevent me from being called a ni**er or being discriinated against? nope. i am black and i am treated prejudiciously as other blacks and minorities are.

you're a different situation. you dont look NA and were probably not treated as a NA and you didnt have to suffer thru the same things that other NAs did.

It is a broken record. I'm telling you, I suffered much more than other NAs that I knew. The one who was president of my high school class? Not poor, not treated badly. It was all about money. If you've got money, everything follows.

 

[little_late_MD]

not to be rude at all, but i cant help but laugh at your post. im sorry. here's my reply:

Feel free to laugh. I've laughed at a number of your posts throughout my brief tenure here. As long as you're trying to at least understand where I'm coming from, it's no biggie.

2. i'm not resistent to the American label AT ALL. in fact i'll say it now: I AM AMERICAN. however I AM ALSO NIGERIAN. MY culture is not entirely like that of black-americans or white-americans. my culture is a blend. in order for me to acknowledge who i am, i must acknowledge both cultural influences

In your prior post, you referred to yourself as Nigerian. When I hear that, I think "person born in Nigeria." If you insist on labeling yourself, why not represent all facets of your ethnic heritage? Perhaps Nigerian-American with a smattering of Etheopian/English/French/Indian/etc. I'm not a big fan of attaching labels based on ethnic backgrounds. How far back do you go? What if you feel a certain kinship to some culture that you are not actually a part of? I just think it's much easier to go with the country you're a citizen of. But that's just my opinion.

Yes foreigners do learn to assimilate, but your assumption that they are "even more proud of where they are" is faulty. May I ask what your cultural background is? I don't think racial tension are worsing because ppl refuse to "meld" their true culture into this new culture. I think its because small minded ppl refuse to acknowledge and appreciate these other cultures.

I don't think my ethnic background has any relevence to this discussion what-so-ever. I refuse to be pigeon-holed based on that alone. You don't think that the refusal to meld into a culture you are a part of is a source of friction? Look no further than France, most of central Africa, Israel or the hinterlands of India. Of course small minded people contribute to these tensions, but you cannot deny the effect that non-assimilation has on the unity of a nation. While race relations in this country aren't great, they are as good as they are because there is so much give and take in regards to cultural assimilation. I don't believe that is an idea you can just dismiss.

Thanks for proving my prior point: many ppl are in dire need of cultural sensitivity training.

(I'm not nec. saying you are!!)

Seeing as how this was attached to a reply to me, I'm going to assume this directed at me. Really, I can't see the basis for this. Don't assume that because someone has a difference of opinion with you that they are in need of cultural sensitivity training. That's just silly.

 

[MoosePilot]

Those were three different scenarios, I would just like you to pick the best one (I guess I should have made them bulleted). If you think none of them are ideal, please pick the one that is closest to ideal and amend it accordingly. Also, what is your definition of "quality physician"?

I meant to highlight it. I fixed my omission. Rereading, I think the absolute best would be a combination of 1 and 2. I think schools should concentrate on qualifications, but high achievement under more difficult circumstances is really *higher* achievement, so I think things like economic disadvantage during formative years that has been overcome to succeed anyway is admirable and should help.

Quality physican? Intelligent, good memory, sensitive to a patient's needs, low enough ego that he listens to the patient in order to get as much information as possible, but high enough ego to survive as a doctor (in other words a combination of confidence and humility), good endurance to keep him sharp during long days, ability to handle high stress, kind, and hard working.

 

[MissMary]

Little late: i dont intentd to carry on with this topic for too much longer b/c its truly off topic, but i will reply to your concerns.

1. i am trying to undestand where you're coming from and i appreciate that you have been very respectful with respect to questions about my culture.
2. Culture truly goes beyond the country you are currently living in. My culture is a blend of both. I have certain traditions that blacks dont. i'm sorry that you cant understand why i call myself nigerian-american, but that's just how it is. if you ask other ppl living in america and practicing other cultures, they will either tell you that they identify themselves with their ethnic culture only or that they consider themselves a blend of both. It may be easier for you to call me american, but culture cannot be truly simplified in that way.
3. again: i think that ppl's refusal to appreciate foreign cultures and peoples is the problem here. if the idea is to have a uni-cultural country, then dont allow foreigners in. i'm not really familiar with eh cultural climate in france, so i cant comment too much on that, but i still think the same thing applies. in the us, ppl are allowed to practice their own cultures. the expectation by the government for them to conform is not there. ppl are not allowed citizenship as long as they agree to drop their true culture.

***i wasnt trying to offend you by asking your cultural background. i was trying to understand where you're coming from. this is usually a non issue with other ethnic ppl. thats why i wanted to know. you of course dont have to share***

Thanks for proving my prior point: many ppl are in dire need of cultural sensitivity training. (I'm not nec. saying you are!!)

I wasnt talking about you specifically and you know that.

 

[MissMary]

It is a broken record. I'm telling you, I suffered much more than other NAs that I knew. The one who was president of my high school class? Not poor, not treated badly. It was all about money. If you've got money, everything follows.

im sorry you suffered and im sorry you were poor. but your circumstances made you strong. even tho AA does not cover for poverty, adcoms love individuals who have gone thru any kind of adversity b/c these individuals offer diversity as well. it may have been that you circumstances helped your chances and not your URM status.

 

[MoosePilot]

im sorry you suffered and im sorry you were poor. but your circumstances made you strong. even tho AA does not cover for poverty, adcoms love individuals who have gone thru any kind of adversity b/c these individuals offer diversity as well. it may have been that you circumstances helped your chances and not your URM status.

It might be. I talked to the director of admissions at the first school I was accepted to, which is also one of my top choices (I'm not quite done, yet, so I haven't ranked all my schools... I hate hedging what I say about schools, but I'm pretty careful what I say until they've made their absolute final decisions and I've made mine). She said that I had a good shot there when I had a 32 MCAT and didn't mention the whole disadvantaged/URM thing. I don't think it mattered, although looking at that UC chart, I'm definitely pretty low on the Science GPA (I was so lazy in school).

Where are you in the application process, MissMary? Are you applying to school?

 

[LadyJubilee8_18]

I meant to highlight it. I fixed my omission. Rereading, I think the absolute best would be a combination of 1 and 2. I think schools should concentrate on qualifications, but high achievement under more difficult circumstances is really *higher* achievement, so I think things like economic disadvantage during formative years that has been overcome to succeed anyway is admirable and should help.

Quality physican? Intelligent, good memory, sensitive to a patient's needs, low enough ego that he listens to the patient in order to get as much information as possible, but high enough ego to survive as a doctor (in other words a combination of confidence and humility), good endurance to keep him sharp during long days, ability to handle high stress, kind, and hard working.

I think the difference between you and I is that you see things from the individuals point of view while I see things with the idea that the end product must serve the needs of the country. The story of how you began to accrue debt to your parents as soon as you were born said a lot. In your opinion (I believe) medical school admission is one’s reward for outstanding academic achievement. The ones who work to the best of their ability should be granted admissions because of their hard work. If you feel a certain group of people did not work to the best of their ability, these people do not deserve medical admissions.

Ideally, those who worked the hardest would also comprise the ideal physician population and deliver the best care. I think this is where there is a disconnect. The most precise measure of how hard someone worked are their numbers, but I don’t feel the people with the highest numbers will necessarily serve the needs of the country. This is for many reasons.

1. There are more qualified applicants than there are available seats: It has been shown (whether or not you believe it) that anyone who can make a 25 or higher on the MCAT is likely to be qualified (able to pass necessary examinations and become a working physician). Not everyone with a 25 or higher will be able to get into medical school. The major reason why qualified applicants do not get into school is because of APPLICATION PRESSURE (not AA).
2. MCAT scores have diminishing marginal returns: As I mentioned earlier, maybe there is a big difference between a 25 and a 28, but is there really a big difference between a 35 and a 38? When you get into the higher numbers, scores can differ by as little as 5% more or fewer correct answers. At a certain point, medical schools need to be able to decide when scores are high enough and they can look at other factors considering the needs of the medical community. Maybe the guy with the 38 was better able to achieve on the MCAT than the guy with the 35 (for whatever reason); he probably feels more entitled to “his spot” than the guy with the 35, but how does this help the medical community?
3. IMO, individual needs should yeild to the needs of the general population: There are glaring problems in health care that have resulted from racial discrimination. We know this is true. We have seen many reasons why the med school population needs to be diverse. Unfortunately because of educational disadvantages (no matter the cause), something has to give for us to achieve a diverse physician population. If you worked so hard on the MCAT that you got a 50 (you thought you did so well, you petitioned the AAMC to add 5 points and you won), and you feel like you deserve to go to Harvard, but you ended up having to go to Duke instead, who cares? Just for arguments sake, I’ll pretend URMs actually do take the spots of other applicants with higher numbers (and application pressure is not to blame). If recruiting URMs pushes some others out of their top choice school but works to remedy the existing disparities, is this not a small price to pay? Is making sure everyone who feels they worked hard gets into medical school worth the sacrifice of perpetuating the current health disparities? I’d say no. Some may claim that using MCAT and GPA as main qualifications for admissions is the only fair way to evaluate applicants. I’d say this is the only precise way to evaluate applicants. This way, if you didn’t get in, you know it was because you didn’t have a high enough GPA or MCAT score--but what is the price for this solace? How many lives will be diminished if we subscribe to this ideology? Ends justify the means IMO.

 

[little_late_MD]

I wasnt talking about you specifically and you know that.

Sorry about that. I guess I'm a little sensitive at times. After reading your post I went and cried in the corner for a couple ofminutes, and then wrote a very sad poem about it. I guess I'm just too emo for my own good. I should never have borrowed that New Found Glory CD.

 

[MissMary]

It might be. I talked to the director of admissions at the first school I was accepted to, which is also one of my top choices (I'm not quite done, yet, so I haven't ranked all my schools... I hate hedging what I say about schools, but I'm pretty careful what I say until they've made their absolute final decisions and I've made mine). She said that I had a good shot there when I had a 32 MCAT and didn't mention the whole disadvantaged/URM thing. I don't think it mattered, although looking at that UC chart, I'm definitely pretty low on the Science GPA (I was so lazy in school).

Where are you in the application process, MissMary? Are you applying to school?

ooooooooooooooh ****!!!! a civil conversation between moose and mary. aint this some ****.

i wont be applying until next summer. im currently studying for the MCAT. (no progress today tho......

 

[MoosePilot]

I think the difference between you and I is that you see things from the individuals point of view while I see things with the idea that the end product must serve the needs of the country. The story of how you began to accrue debt to your parents as soon as you were born said a lot. In your opinion (I believe) medical school admission is one’s reward for outstanding academic achievement. The ones who work to the best of their ability should be granted admissions because of their hard work. If you feel a certain group of people did not work to the best of their ability, these people do not deserve medical admissions.

Ideally, those who worked the hardest would also comprise the ideal physician population and deliver the best care. I think this is where there is a disconnect. The most precise measure of how hard someone worked are their numbers, but I don’t feel the people with the highest numbers will necessarily serve the needs of the country. This is for many reasons.

1. There are more qualified applicants than there are available seats: It has been shown (whether or not you believe it) that anyone who can make a 25 or higher on the MCAT is likely to be qualified (able to pass necessary examinations and become a working physician). Not everyone with a 25 or higher will be able to get into medical school. The major reason why qualified applicants do not get into school is because of APPLICATION PRESSURE (not AA).
2. MCAT scores have diminishing marginal returns: As I mentioned earlier, maybe there is a big difference between a 25 and a 28, but is there really a big difference between a 35 and a 38? When you get into the higher numbers, scores can differ by as little as 5% more or fewer correct answers. At a certain point, medical schools need to be able to decide when scores are high enough and they can look at other factors considering the needs of the medical community. Maybe the guy with the 38 was better able to achieve on the MCAT than the guy with the 35 (for whatever reason); he probably feels more entitled to “his spot” than the guy with the 35, but how does this help the medical community?
3. IMO, individual needs should yeild to the needs of the general population: There are glaring problems in health care that have resulted from racial discrimination. We know this is true. We have seen many reasons why the med school population needs to be diverse. Unfortunately because of educational disadvantages (no matter the cause), something has to give for us to achieve a diverse physician population. If you worked so hard on the MCAT that you got a 50 (you thought you did so well, you petitioned the AAMC to add 5 points and you won), and you feel like you deserve to go to Harvard, but you ended up having to go to Duke instead, who cares? Just for arguments sake, I’ll pretend URMs actually do take the spots of other applicants with higher numbers (and application pressure is not to blame). If recruiting URMs pushes some others out of their top choice school but works to remedy the existing disparities, is this not a small price to pay? Is making sure everyone who feels they worked hard gets into medical school worth the sacrifice of perpetuating the current health disparities? I’d say no. Some may claim that using MCAT and GPA as main qualifications for admissions is the only fair way to evaluate applicants. I’d say this is the only precise way to evaluate applicants. This way, if you didn’t get in, you know it was because you didn’t have a high enough GPA or MCAT score--but what is the price for this solace? How many lives will be diminished if we subscribe to this ideology? Ends justify the means IMO.

Yes, you're getting closer to what I believe. It's not "work" that I'm for, because that would ignore the fact that there are real differences in innate ability (intelligence, talent, whatever you want to call it). So someone with a higher ability might have to work less hard (but still very hard) to do well.

Another thing is that you've concentrated too much on my emphasis on the numbers. Numbers are easy, because we can show that URMs are allowed in with lower numbers. I am not actually that number oriented. I am achievement oriented and I acknowledge that, in general, adcoms have the best handle on what achievement means (although, because of the radical differences in schools you pick up on, they don't agree amongst themselves). I think achievement is comprised of MCAT, GPA, volunteer/shadow type activities, other ECs, work/life experiences, sports, arts, etc. So I could see a medical school admitting someone with a 3.5/30 over someone with a 3.6/31, if the first person started a small but successful foundation to eliminate local racial healthcare disparities, while the other person had 100 hours of volunteer time in the local ER.

As for diminishing returns, I agree, but it's tough to say what kind of intellectual differences will matter in such a huge and deep field as medicine.

I think the costs for eliminating health care disparities needs to be born by the nation as a whole.

So I want the best doctors, but I define best as most effective in whatever community they choose to work, not a specific community which right now is seen to have a healthcare shortage.

 

[MissMary]

Sorry about that. I guess I'm a little sensitive at times. After reading your post I went and cried in the corner for a couple ofminutes, and then wrote a very sad poem about it. I guess I'm just too emo for my own good. I should never have borrowed that New Found Glory CD.

hahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[MoosePilot]

ooooooooooooooh ****!!!! a civil conversation between moose and mary. aint this some ****.

i wont be applying until next summer. im currently studying for the MCAT. (no progress today tho......

I'm glad I didn't find SDN until after my most recent MCAT. It was really all-consuming and I wouldn't have had the discipline to stay off it as much as I should have (although I might have asked to be banned, if I'd needed to).

 

[little_late_MD]

I wasnt talking about you specifically and you know that.

Sorry about that. I guess I'm a little sensitive at times. I went and cried in the corner for a couple minutes, and then wrote a very sad poem about it. I guess I'm just too emo. I should never have borrowed that New Found Glory CD.

 

[LadyJubilee8_18]

Yes, you're getting closer to what I believe. It's not "work" that I'm for, because that would ignore the fact that there are real differences in innate ability (intelligence, talent, whatever you want to call it). So someone with a higher ability might have to work less hard (but still very hard) to do well.

Another thing is that you've concentrated too much on my emphasis on the numbers. Numbers are easy, because we can show that URMs are allowed in with lower numbers. I am not actually that number oriented. I am achievement oriented and I acknowledge that, in general, adcoms have the best handle on what achievement means (although, because of the radical differences in schools you pick up on, they don't agree amongst themselves). I think achievement is comprised of MCAT, GPA, volunteer/shadow type activities, other ECs, work/life experiences, sports, arts, etc. So I could see a medical school admitting someone with a 3.5/30 over someone with a 3.6/31, if the first person started a small but successful foundation to eliminate local racial healthcare disparities, while the other person had 100 hours of volunteer time in the local ER.

As for diminishing returns, I agree, but it's tough to say what kind of intellectual differences will matter in such a huge and deep field as medicine.

I think the costs for eliminating health care disparities needs to be born by the nation as a whole.

So I want the best doctors, but I define best as most effective in whatever community they choose to work, not a specific community which right now is seen to have a healthcare shortage.

Though I see your point that just being a URM is not an achievement, I think being a URM is a desirable quality considering the demands of the population. If the whole nation accepts the cost of diminishing health care disparities, people in the application process should understand the need for AA and acknowledge that it is not the best fix nor will it be the final fix. I also think the best doctors are the ones most effective in whatever community they choose to work, but we need a dynamic population of doctors to ensure that every community will be chosen. Though the easiest qualifications are those you have control over (things you can choose to do), sometimes qualities that can not be controlled (such as race or ethnicity) are desirable because of the current cultural predicament of the US. In any case, I don't think anyone can ever say that the only reason why he got in to medical school is because of his specific heritage or that the only reason why he did not get in is because he was not a URM. Everyone who gets into medical school did something to deserve it.

 

[LadyJubilee8_18]

Sorry about that. I guess I'm a little sensitive at times. I went and cried in the corner for a couple minutes, and then wrote a very sad poem about it. I guess I'm just too emo. I should never have borrowed that New Found Glory CD.

you're on a roll tonight!

 

[MarzMD]

I wish we had an ADCOM that could comment on how much of a role URM status plays during the admissions process. Im not sure any of us really know.
I have enjoyed reading the different views expressed by all that have contributed to this thread. Regardless of whether someone agrees with my point of view or not, respect is owed to anyone who is able to debate such a topic in a sensible manner. Thank you guys for presenting differing views on the same topic without resorting to un-academic language.


On a side note, the med school diary of a particular african american female, linked on the starting page of SDN, really shows the negative views some people have about minorities that have been brought about by AA. I think it is really sad to know that some of my classmates next year will have such thoughts about me. You can read her diary at http://www.studentdoctor.net/diary/bio.asp?aID=66 In her comments section, many have resorted to racist comments in order to question her place in medical school. People can be really disappointing sometimes. I guess I did not expect such ignorance to be so prevalent in minds great enough to attend medical school.

 

[hokte]

I would like to know the statistics of people finishing med school. Of those who enter with a lower MCAT scores and GPA's, do they finish at approximately the same rate?

 

[Mixtli]

[ Here's something to chew about:

1) The US Census predicts by 2050. Whites will no longer become the majority, hence a minority among minorities. Blacks and Hispanics will make up 50% of the US population. If this trend were to continue, can Blacks and Hispanics still be considered a URM? Can URM be applicable to White applicants based on technical terms?

2) Although, Blacks have been racially discriminated against. There have been other minority groups that were discriminated against: Japanese and WWII internment. Most Japanese lost EVERYTHING, but there was no AA directed for this minority group? How come Japanese Americans do not get an edge in the admission process?

3) With all things equal, a URM applicant will edge out a non-URM with the same background (e.g. middle-class) and stats. With this said, why should the color of one's skin be the factor that decides one's dreams and aspirations.

4) When I go to see a doctor (which I am going to in a week for my high eye pressures), I don't care who I see. I just want the best doc, if he is White, Black, Hispanic, or Asian, then so be it, or else I would never get to see another doc in my life because of degenerative eyesight loss.

 

[hokte]

[ Here's something to chew about:

1) The US Census predicts by 2050. Whites will no longer become the majority, hence a minority among minorities. Blacks and Hispanics will make up 50% of the US population. If this trend were to continue, can Blacks and Hispanics still be considered a URM? Can URM be applicable to White applicants based on technical terms?

2) Although, Blacks have been racially discriminated against. There have been other minority groups that were discriminated against: Japanese and WWII internment. Most Japanese lost EVERYTHING, but there was no AA directed for this minority group? How come Japanese Americans do not get an edge in the admission process?

3) With all things equal, a URM applicant will edge out a non-URM with the same background (e.g. middle-class) and stats. With this said, why should the color of one's skin be the factor that decides one's dreams and aspirations.

4) When I go to see a doctor (which I am going to in a week for my high eye pressures), I don't care who I see. I just want the best doc, if he is White, Black, Hispanic, or Asian, then so be it, or else I would never get to see another doc in my life because of degenerative eyesight loss.

Even if blacks and hispanics out number whites in the general population, will it be the same for the profession of medicine? If not then they will still be underrepresented minorities. In the field of medicine that is, not necessarily in the public. Even if you are greater in numbers still doesn't mean there will be fair and equal treatment. I believe in S.Africa, black africans were greatest in number, but they still had a few difficulties to overcome.

What happened to the Japanese was definately horrible, and they should have recieved some sort of reparations. Even though that would never have been enough to compensate for what they went through. I'm not that familar with this piece of history, I knew that it occurred, but that's about it. How many years were they kept in these places? Were there several generations that were born into these conditions? When they were finally released did they have the same rights as the general population?

 

[LadyJubilee8_18]

[ Here's something to chew about:

1) The US Census predicts by 2050. Whites will no longer become the majority, hence a minority among minorities. Blacks and Hispanics will make up 50% of the US population. If this trend were to continue, can Blacks and Hispanics still be considered a URM? Can URM be applicable to White applicants based on technical terms?

2) Although, Blacks have been racially discriminated against. There have been other minority groups that were discriminated against: Japanese and WWII internment. Most Japanese lost EVERYTHING, but there was no AA directed for this minority group? How come Japanese Americans do not get an edge in the admission process?

3) With all things equal, a URM applicant will edge out a non-URM with the same background (e.g. middle-class) and stats. With this said, why should the color of one's skin be the factor that decides one's dreams and aspirations.

4) When I go to see a doctor (which I am going to in a week for my high eye pressures), I don't care who I see. I just want the best doc, if he is White, Black, Hispanic, or Asian, then so be it, or else I would never get to see another doc in my life because of degenerative eyesight loss.

1) The term URM refers to groups that are under represented in medicine. The fact that there are growing numbers of Blacks and Hispanics in the general population further highlights why there needs to be a growing population of Blacks and Hispanics in medicine. As these group's populations grow in the public, the disparity between the number of minorities in the population and the number in medical school will be exacerbated if nothing is done to correct the problems. Ideally, early educational disparities should be corrected so that there is no need for AA, but AA is a quick and easy way to cause immediate changes.

2. Again, AA is not some way to make amends for past discrimination--it is a way to ensure all populations of people receive the best possible health care. It is unfortunate that so many minority groups have been marginalized in this country, but the health disparities that effect URM groups do not similarly affect Asian Americans. This could be due to the fact that Asian Americans are over represented in medicine.

3. This is not true. Studies have been done that show URM applicants of the same socio-economic background as non-URM applicants tend to be at a disadvantage. We can discuss the reasons for this until we are blue in the face, but the fact still remains that there are factors that diminish URM achievement beyond the scope of socio-economic status.

4. It is nice that you are so color-blind, but not all patients or all doctors are. It has been shown time and time again that increasing the number of URMs in medicine favorably impacts the quality of healthcare URM patients receive. If you would like proof of this, you can revisit the studies I've posted earlier in this thread.

 

[Saluki]

4. It is nice that you are so color-blind, but not all patients or all doctors are. It has been shown time and time again that increasing the number of URMs in medicine favorably impacts the quality of healthcare URM patients receive. If you would like proof of this, you can revisit the studies I've posted earlier in this thread.

But the best long terms solution if racism is really the problem is not necessarily to produce more black and hispanic physicians, but to make sure that the physicians, regardless of their race are sensitive to their patients' different backgrounds and to educate the patients so that they feel comfortable seeing a physician of a different race. In many small towns, there's only going to be one doctor. I think white or black, they need to be able to provide the best of care to their various patients. I think that all of us need to become more color blind, and the way to achieve that is not to excuse poor treatment by white physicians or to encourage blacks and hispanics to pick their doctors based on race.

 

[LadyJubilee8_18]

But the best long terms solution if racism is really the problem is not necessarily to produce more black and hispanic physicians, but to make sure that the physicians, regardless of their race are sensitive to their patients' different backgrounds and to educate the patients so that they feel comfortable seeing a physician of a different race. In many small towns, there's only going to be one doctor. I think white or black, they need to be able to provide the best of care to their various patients. I think that all of us need to become more color blind, and the way to achieve that is not to excuse poor treatment by white physicians or to encourage blacks and hispanics to pick their doctors based on race.

Of course the long-term goal would be to break down color barriers, but right now it is quite obvious that race impacts the caliber of treatment patients receive. As I posted before, there was an incident in an inner-city hospital outside of DC where black patients who needed kidney transplants were put on the non-compliant list (therefore, not on the donor list) because the physician thought blacks were less likely to change their habits and would ruin the new kidney if they were allowed to have transplants. Not every example is this extreme, but racial issues permeate all aspects of American interactions. This can be especially injurious in medicine.

Also (as mentioned before) a HUGE factor leading to cultural competence is the diversity of one's medical class. If medical students of all ethnicities interact daily with people of differing backgrounds, they are more likely to respect and understand patients of these differing backgrounds. This is why it is important to have a healthy representation of every group in medical school. AA, though not the perfect solution, seems to be the only effective solution that helps achieve this goal.

 

[CaveatLector]

1)
2. Again, AA is not some way to make amends for past discrimination--it is a way to ensure all populations of people receive the best possible health care. It is unfortunate that so many minority groups have been marginalized in this country, but the health disparities that effect URM groups do not similarly affect Asian Americans. This could be due to the fact that Asian Americans are over represented in medicine.

.

That's kind of the point though really. Asian Americans ARE overrepresented, and how did they get that way? They were highly discriminated against as a race all through history in this country. They took the work no one else wanted--laundries, etc. BUT the difference was in THEIR culture. They encourage education among their children. Culturally it was very important to the Asian Americans. That's where it starts, encouraging your OWN children. Making them realize the value of education and being a part of thier lives and education as they grow up. They didn't have help doing that. There was no public policy to boost them up. They did it THEMSELVES. Pulled themselves up by their proverbial bootstraps.

Bill Cosby was right. Black people need to instill in their children the importance and value of a good education. Spending time with children is usually easy to do and doesn't cost a dime. That's what it takes. Let the children know you have expectations. Tell them they can't play "house" or ball or whatever until homework is done. My wife worked in an inner-city elementary school as a counselor for 9 years. It was pathetic how most of those kids were treated by parents. I could go into story after story but I won't launch my diatribe. Bottom line is there are cultural differences in the races which bring about the inevitable. Blacks need to take control of their children's education. It doesn't take money to teach them to count when they are 4 years old. These kids lack the foundation that is required to advance adequately. And you cannot expect miracles from teachers if education is not reinforced at home as well. Don't put your child's future exclusively in the hands of a teacher. My god, the quality of education your child receive will affect their entire lives. Asians stress education more than even white Americans. Look at how school is treated in Japan as an example. People need to LEARN from that.

Stop putting basketball before studying. And speaking of basketball, why can't colleges open up a few spots for less qualified white players???

 

[bansheeDO]

You can apply as a disadvantaged applicant and talk about your commitment to underserved populations in your essays. I know schools take this information into consideration during the admissions process. Are you from a rural area or an urban area? Many schools hope to increase the number of physicians who pursue rural medicine; your application would probably be most compelling at these schools.

What if she is from an urban area. Does that not count then? Do URM's from urban areas not receive the same the benefits as a URM from an urban area?

 

[bansheeDO]

Let's be honest, without AA, many URM's are not going to get into medical school. It's not a fair process by any means but admitting URM's is a good thing and will benefit society in the long term. Would you rather URM's not become physicians? We saw what happened in Texas when they banned AA at the University of Texas Law school. They admitted only one African American in their very large class. Again, this isn't the most fair process but the reality is that without AA, a large percentage of URM's wouldn't get into medical school.

 

[CaveatLector]

Let's be honest, without AA, many URM's are not going to get into medical school. It's not a fair process by any means but admitting URM's is a good thing and will benefit society in the long term. Would you rather URM's not become physicians? We saw what happened in Texas when they banned AA at the University of Texas Law school. They admitted only one African American in their very large class. Again, this isn't the most fair process but the reality is that without AA, a large percentage of URM's wouldn't get into medical school.

To say it isn't the MOST fair process is an absolute understatement. Call a spade a spade. It isn't a FAIR process.

It is discrimination based on skin color.

It is trying to cure a problem with what some would say IS the problem. Discrimination.

I don't find it acceptable. I think people need to be told the truth, that their lack of stress on education for their children is hurting their race. Like an earlier poster said, it would be an easier pill to swallow if there were a sunset provision in a federal AA law. Give them 20 years. A full generation. Tell mothers and fathers of today that it is time to step up to the plate and encourage education in their children. PARTICIPATE in the education of their children. Take the ball or stereo away when the grades are below average.
Read to their kids. Teach simple math. Help out your own children for god's sake.

This kind of blatantly inequitable treatment breeds contempt. It causes more of what you are trying to remedy. People who would not otherwise be such, are resentful to minorities when they see stuff like this happen. Parents who raised their children like they gave a damn are resentful when their kids don't get into professional programs when they perceive that one of the reasons why is because of the color of their skin. WHITE. The kids that don't get in are likewise resentful. What problem is it you were trying to cure with this program again? Oh yeah, racism, which is said to be at the root of the problem to begin with. And what type of problem are you breeding with the program??? Racism. And on both ends this time. The one end is the racism used to reject equally as competent or more competent whites due only to skin color. The other end is the resentment that you breed among the rejectees, their families, and those who hear about these types of programs an see what they do.

Fine, use AA, but there needs to be a sunset provision. In other words a compromise. Personally I prefer diversity in higher education as I feel it makes us more well-rounded as a society. But there are ways to get there and ways not to get there. Racism isn't the way to get there.

 

[Saluki]

Additionally Moosepilot: I would like to know your views on AA's role in encouraging women into the workforce and into institutions of higher learning. I'm sure women had to go thru the same things minorities are going thru now with proving themselves and discrediting faulty claims, but they persevered and now they have come much further than they were 50 years ago.

Yea, but we're doing so without a policy that lets us in with significantly lower grades and MCAT scores...

 

[Newton Bohr MD]

Yea, but we're doing so without a policy that lets us in with significantly lower grades and MCAT scores...

was this always the case??... There are many opportunities open to women that are not open to White men and Asians in business etc... I also always see scholarships for "women in engineering" etc...

 

[gostudy]

On a side note, the med school diary of a particular african american female, linked on the starting page of SDN, really shows the negative views some people have about minorities that have been brought about by AA. I think it is really sad to know that some of my classmates next year will have such thoughts about me. You can read her diary at http://www.studentdoctor.net/diary/bio.asp?aID=66 In her comments section, many have resorted to racist comments in order to question her place in medical school. People can be really disappointing sometimes. I guess I did not expect such ignorance to be so prevalent in minds great enough to attend medical school.

Yo seriously yall should read some of this stuff. Completely uncalled for.

 

[LadyJubilee8_18]

To say it isn't the MOST fair process is an absolute understatement. Call a spade a spade. It isn't a FAIR process.

It is discrimination based on skin color.

It is trying to cure a problem with what some would say IS the problem. Discrimination.

I don't find it acceptable. I think people need to be told the truth, that their lack of stress on education for their children is hurting their race. Like an earlier poster said, it would be an easier pill to swallow if there were a sunset provision in a federal AA law. Give them 20 years. A full generation. Tell mothers and fathers of today that it is time to step up to the plate and encourage education in their children. PARTICIPATE in the education of their children. Take the ball or stereo away when the grades are below average.
Read to their kids. Teach simple math. Help out your own children for god's sake.

This kind of blatantly inequitable treatment breeds contempt. It causes more of what you are trying to remedy. People who would not otherwise be such, are resentful to minorities when they see stuff like this happen. Parents who raised their children like they gave a damn are resentful when their kids don't get into professional programs when they perceive that one of the reasons why is because of the color of their skin. WHITE. The kids that don't get in are likewise resentful. What problem is it you were trying to cure with this program again? Oh yeah, racism, which is said to be at the root of the problem to begin with. And what type of problem are you breeding with the program??? Racism. And on both ends this time. The one end is the racism used to reject equally as competent or more competent whites due only to skin color. The other end is the resentment that you breed among the rejectees, their families, and those who hear about these types of programs an see what they do.

Fine, use AA, but there needs to be a sunset provision. In other words a compromise. Personally I prefer diversity in higher education as I feel it makes us more well-rounded as a society. But there are ways to get there and ways not to get there. Racism isn't the way to get there.

I find this post very one-sided. I think the problems with lower educational achievement among minority groups has to do both with problems within those communities and disparities imposed upon those communities. If you would really like to speak intelligently about factors that uniquely hinder African Americans, feel free to PM me and I’ll give you my aim address. The issues are not as cut and dry as you make them seem, and I think you are being unfair in your post. I did very well on the MCAT and I have a high GPA, but I can relay from personal experience the social hurdles I had to overcome to achieve my goals. I promise it’s not just about parental encouragement.

To those who suggest AA is the cause for racial discrimination: I disagree with this whole-heartedly. The racist idea that blacks and other minorities are intellectually inferior to other races was not engendered with Affirmative Action. You all should talk to black doctors who went through medical school before AA was even around—you will see that they faced many of the same prejudice during their training. I really think the absurd responses that have been posted here further reflect the need for diversity in higher education.

 

[LadyJubilee8_18]

To say it isn't the MOST fair process is an absolute understatement. Call a spade a spade. It isn't a FAIR process.

It is discrimination based on skin color.

It is trying to cure a problem with what some would say IS the problem. Discrimination.

I don't find it acceptable. I think people need to be told the truth, that their lack of stress on education for their children is hurting their race. Like an earlier poster said, it would be an easier pill to swallow if there were a sunset provision in a federal AA law. Give them 20 years. A full generation. Tell mothers and fathers of today that it is time to step up to the plate and encourage education in their children. PARTICIPATE in the education of their children. Take the ball or stereo away when the grades are below average.
Read to their kids. Teach simple math. Help out your own children for god's sake.

This kind of blatantly inequitable treatment breeds contempt. It causes more of what you are trying to remedy. People who would not otherwise be such, are resentful to minorities when they see stuff like this happen. Parents who raised their children like they gave a damn are resentful when their kids don't get into professional programs when they perceive that one of the reasons why is because of the color of their skin. WHITE. The kids that don't get in are likewise resentful. What problem is it you were trying to cure with this program again? Oh yeah, racism, which is said to be at the root of the problem to begin with. And what type of problem are you breeding with the program??? Racism. And on both ends this time. The one end is the racism used to reject equally as competent or more competent whites due only to skin color. The other end is the resentment that you breed among the rejectees, their families, and those who hear about these types of programs an see what they do.

Fine, use AA, but there needs to be a sunset provision. In other words a compromise. Personally I prefer diversity in higher education as I feel it makes us more well-rounded as a society. But there are ways to get there and ways not to get there. Racism isn't the way to get there.

I find this post very one-sided. I think the problems with lower educational achievement among minority groups has to do both with problems within those communities and disparities imposed upon those communities. If you would really like to speak intelligently about factors that uniquely hinder African Americans, feel free to PM me and I’ll give you my aim address. The issues are not as cut and dry as you make them seem, and I think you are being unfair in your post. I did very well on the MCAT and I have a high GPA, but I can relay from personal experience the social hurdles I had to overcome to achieve my goals. I promise it’s not just about parental encouragement.

To those who suggest AA is the cause for racial discrimination: I disagree with this whole-heartedly. The racist idea that blacks and other minorities are intellectually inferior to other races was not engendered with Affirmative Action. You all should talk to black doctors who went through medical school before AA was even around—you will see that they faced many of the same prejudice during their training. I really think the absurd responses that have been posted here further reflect the need for diversity in higher education.

 

[Jaykms]

I just want to make a point about why it makes no sense to argue over AA in the context of medical admissions. You've probably heard it many times before but it's true- the admissions process is really a "total crapshoot".

The entire system is flawed because it is almost impossible to precisely and accurately compare the qualifications of applicants. Even numbers like GPAs cannot be compared. Some schools inflate, others deflate, some schools do a little bit of both depending on your major, people come in with completely different majors and coursework, and even within the same school and the same class, two different professors teaching in different semesters will almost certainly grade differently. Then there is the MCAT, and everyone knows how accurate a measure of capability standardized tests are . Then of course are ECs, which are probably the most difficult to compare among candidates because they are so varied, unless you're just looking at the total number or the total hours spent which is obviously not fair either. I don't even need to mention how subjective personal statements and interviews are.

And you must realize of course that AA is not the only method of preferential admissions, there is also legacy, connections (say you know someone on the Board of Directors), geographic/state based preferences, institutional preferences, "bribery", and the list goes on and on. Considering that there are only about 100 seats in your average medical school and all these forms of flawed applicant comparison and preferential admission are being applied, how many spots are actually given out "fairly" anyway? AA accounts only for about 10% of it. Even if there was no AA, non-URMs would still have to compete at the same level! The bottom line is that the whole system is flawed and nothing is truly fair. But so is life. Unfairness, prejudice, racism, are all things of reality.

Lady_jubilee, you have made some very intelligent and well-thought out posts in this thread. I've never really thought about AA before but I've gotten a whole new perspective on it. I'd like to know a little bit more about the difficulties that African Americans face because I feel I am very ignorant on the issue. Maybe we can talk about it sometime.

 

[Bernito]

Bill Cosby was right. Black people need to instill in their children the importance and value of a good education. Spending time with children is usually easy to do and doesn't cost a dime. That's what it takes. Let the children know you have expectations. Tell them they can't play "house" or ball or whatever until homework is done. My wife worked in an inner-city elementary school as a counselor for 9 years. It was pathetic how most of those kids were treated by parents. I could go into story after story but I won't launch my diatribe. Bottom line is there are cultural differences in the races which bring about the inevitable. Blacks need to take control of their children's education. It doesn't take money to teach them to count when they are 4 years old. These kids lack the foundation that is required to advance adequately. And you cannot expect miracles from teachers if education is not reinforced at home as well. Don't put your child's future exclusively in the hands of a teacher. My god, the quality of education your child receive will affect their entire lives. Asians stress education more than even white Americans. Look at how school is treated in Japan as an example. People need to LEARN from that.

Stop putting basketball before studying. And speaking of basketball, why can't colleges open up a few spots for less qualified white players???

I suggest you re-read what you have written here and re-think these broad generalizations: "Asians stress education more than even white Americans", and "Blacks need to..." (insert lots statements, not the least of which is) "Stop putting basketball before studying."

 

[Jaykms]

I suggest you re-read what you have written here and re-think these broad generalizations: "Asians stress education more than even white Americans", and "Blacks need to..." (insert lots statements, not the least of which is) "Stop putting basketball before studying."

He's right about Asian culture stressing education. People in several Asian countries go to school many more hours a day than in America and schools are even open on the weekends.

Edit:

One thing I don't understand is this. When Asians first came to America they were poor, uneducated, heavily discriminated against, and had the same educational disparities as all other minorities. But now they are Overrepresented in medicine, and this happened without any programs like AA helping them. How come the Asian population was able to acheive this, but the African-American and Hispanic population could not?

 

[Bernito]

He's right about Asian culture stressing education. People in several Asian countries go to school many more hours a day than in America and schools are even open on the weekends.

Edit:

One thing I don't understand is this. When Asians first came to America they were poor, uneducated, heavily discriminated against, and had the same educational disparities as all other minorities. But now they are Overrepresented in medicine, and this happened without any programs like AA helping them. How come the Asian population was able to acheive this, but the African-American and Hispanic population could not?

Asia is a large region of > 2 billion people. I wouldn't say that any group that large does this or that.

Your 'edit' comment implies that you think immigration no longer exists, and all Asians, Hispanics or others that are here are the ones the arrived here 100-200 years ago. The way most Asians (and most immigrants, excluding those from Mexico and Cuba, maybe Canada) come to the United States is with a student visa, to pursue higher education. Otherwise, it is difficult to get a Visa, so those lucky enough to get a visa have already proven themselves relatively successful (or wealthy) in their home country.

Edit: The % of Asians in the US is something like 8%, or about 30 million people. And as someone said this 30 mil is held as a model for all minorities. But also they are held as the model of Asians (all 2+ billion). Newsflash, there are Asians that fail classes, drop out of school, or don't work that hard (in Asia and the US), just like all other groups.

 

[Newton Bohr MD]

He's right about Asian culture stressing education. People in several Asian countries go to school many more hours a day than in America and schools are even open on the weekends.

Edit:

One thing I don't understand is this. When Asians first came to America they were poor, uneducated, heavily discriminated against, and had the same educational disparities as all other minorities. But now they are Overrepresented in medicine, and this happened without any programs like AA helping them. How come the Asian population was able to acheive this, but the African-American and Hispanic population could not?

It is not fair to compare Asians who generally make 2X the salary of blacks/Hispanics… Asians make more than anyone else in this country and get classified as the “model minority”… On the other hand blacks and Hispanics generally have it a lot worse than the average Asian in every facet of education (i.e. most Asians are assumed to be smart but, most blacks are assumed to be dumb until proven otherwise)

 

[Jaykms]

It is not fair to compare Asians who generally make 2X the salary of blacks/Hispanics… Asians make more than anyone else in this country and get classified as the “model minority”… On the other hand blacks and Hispanics generally have it a lot worse than the average Asian in every facet of education (i.e. most Asians are assumed to be smart but, most blacks are assumed to be dumb until proven otherwise)

That's the point. I'm trying to say that it wasn't that way for Asians in the beginning. They made that image for themselves.