DMU is a Wonderful School!

Discussion in 'Medical Students - DO' started by rebeccac, Apr 6, 2001.

  1. rebeccac

    rebeccac New Member

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    I am a first year student at DMU and there is a rumor going around that a class member is bashing the school. Please don't make your decision on what one person is saying. Reflect on your experience here and how excited the students are about life here at DMU. DMU is a great place to get a wonderful education. I feel I am receiving the best education that I can.

    Any questions...email me at [email protected]

    The OMM department is outstanding. I was unsure about manipulation when I came here, but now I love it and enjoy learning it. Most of that has to do with the enthusiasm of the instructors.

    All the instructors here want what is best for us. When I came for my interview, I asked what the biggest accomplishment DMU has had in there over 100 years of existence. They replied it is the students. DMU takes pried in turning out the best doctors they can. I am proud to say I am a student at DMU and I hope you will consider coming here too.
     
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  3. Kent Ray

    Kent Ray Member

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    It's nice to see that people like DMU. I also enjoyed the school my first two years. I thought that they needed more PBL but otherwise everything was ok. Boy did my perception of DMU and the Osteopathic community change during my third and fourth years. DMU totally abandons the students during clinical rotations. They have at best made half hearted efforts at improving this at all in the last three to four years. They have no clinical faculty and cannot regulate the quality of education you are getting during your clinical years. Please believe me it is a little more than difficult to squeeze out an education in your third and fourth years. During my clinical years I never had to take a test, I could rotate where ever I wanted. My third year I did a community rotation in Iowa that was excellent but no teaching. I also spent some time in an Osteopathic Hospital. At the time I didn't know any better but now I can tell you it really was bad. For your information don't go to Bi county in Detroit for anything unless you will be doing your rotations at Henry Ford. I couldn't afford to travel every month to all these different places so I had to rotate with private physicians mostly. I still cannot believe that the school would allow such a thing when I am paying so much for tuition. If you are a prospective student and want to attend DMU be my guest. Just think they are only giving you two years of education for the price of four.
     
  4. muonwhiz

    muonwhiz Senior Member

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    I have been accepted at another school, but am on the wait list at DMU, so I may eventually have a difficult choice to make. I know that there is a new Dean at the school, and have heard from posts on another of these threads that he is trying to work out some of the school's difficulties. Is there any progress being made on the clinical education front? What is being done to assist students so that there is not a repeat of your situation?
     
  5. fmfcorpsman

    fmfcorpsman Member

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    I for one am looking forward to setting up my own rotations. There are two sides to everything. I think DMU is a great school. For whoever reads this. The VAST majority of our class is very happy with the decision to come to dmu for their education. I would also say that the majority of alumi probably happy with their education also. Don't just take one persons opinion as being the absolute truth. If you have any other questions for me my email is [email protected], I would be glad to answer any questions. If you need more students to talk with Im sure that I could put you in contact with more satisfied students.

    Thank you

    Nate

    [This message has been edited by fmfcorpsman (edited April 07, 2001).]
     
  6. Kent Ray

    Kent Ray Member

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    fmfcorpsman,
    You are right everyone should make their own decision based on the evidence. I have not been introduced to the new Dean yet but I bet he is very good.
    On the other hand you are a first or second year student and have not been dealing with this as long as I have. I probably talked to over 100 alumni myself, almost 90% were not happy with DMU. So your statements about the alumni being happy with DMU is not correct. Also just two years ago DMU had less than 200,000 a year in donations through alumni and other sources. This for a school that is over 100 years old. This has improved over 10x but is still almost nothing compared to other schools.
    You say that your class is happy, great but my class is the exact opposite. A large number of the students tried to get out of graduation day because they dislike the school so much.
    I know you want to be proud of your school and I do also but don't put your blinders on. The school owes you an education and they just don't deliver that in your clinical years. Let me ask you a question. Tell me what is most important to learn in your third and fourth years and how you are going to do this? What hospitals will you go to? Do these hospitals have clinical faculty or private physicians? Do you know if you will be expected to know anything on your rotations or will you end up just following some private physician around like a premed? These are all questions that should be accessed and regulated by the school but they have no idea. You don't have the ability to know these things yourself. There are some logs in the library about different rotations that students submit but that is it. There are no required tests, no expectations from the school. I guess this year they are finally coming out with a surgery test.
    Lets talk about rotations. DMU has affiliated hospitals in its core including Des moines general, Trinity north, and York. This is a pathetic attempt. All three hospitals are not even good enough for students much less interns or residents. I have been to both Des Moines General, and Trinity, both of which are hard pressed to have morning report. These people (private physicians) have no business in education. There is no standard or regulations. Your lucky if the attending shows up for rounds much less teaches.
    So for all you prospective students look at everything. When I post here I don't have a vendetta against the school.
    I have had meetings with several board members, wrote several letters to several of our Deans, and members of the Executive committee. I have talked to several people within AOA and IOMA. I know what is happening not only with DMU but how it compares to other Osteopathic schools and allopathic schools. In my opinion the school is not trying and has no plans to improve clinical education. They are not required to by the AOA and I have been told by the president of the Executive board that they cannot hire clinical faculty.
    Now make your own conclusions.


    [This message has been edited by Kent Ray (edited April 07, 2001).]
     
  7. RDJ

    RDJ

    Dr Ray:

    I really have no business responding to this post...but that has never stopped me before. I encourage you and other students/alumni to keep on DMU. However, I do have hope for the school. It is not a completely lost cause. After all, it produced you and two other respected physicians I know. Last year, Dr. Titelbaum (sp?) took over the reigns at DMU. This man is absolutely revered by students and faculty at MSU, where he was faculty for many years. As you are aware, change does not come quickly, but I have no doubt (based on his reputation and having talked with him) that he, and others, are working hard toward change. At some point you are going to have to stop bashing DMU (from my point-of-view, this is all you have done on this board for nearly two years) and do what you can to help improve your alma mater. For example, keep writing letters, encouraging others to donate money and time, sneak in a constructive word or two with AOA officials, etc. DMU is not the only school (MD or DO) that has been going through problems. It definitely has an uphill battle on its hands. You have made this so very clear with everyone of your posts. Dr. Titelbaum was one of the first steps at fixing things. Now, lets hold off on the constant bashing, it is not contributing to the cure. Lets give Dr. T, and the rest of the home team, a chance--he has only been there a few months.

    Humbly Yours...and forever the optimist,
    RDJ


    [This message has been edited by RDJ (edited April 07, 2001).]
     
  8. kidterrific

    kidterrific Senior Member

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    If I may interject - I never thought that Kent has bashed DMU once. He may have misworded some posts, but he has never bashed DMU. He has bashed the clinical rotations that DMU offers because he felt that they were not helpful because they weren't teaching hospitals. He even states that this is a problem for ALL DO schools, not just DMU, but since he went to DMU, he has had to cite his own school as an example.

    If I read you wrong, or if there's some posts I haven't seen, then please accept my apologies. Since I'll most likely be attending DMU next year, I have been following these posts quite closely. I've even gotten into some arguments regarding the difference between a personal vendetta, and an educated opinion. I think that Dr. Ray has an educated opinion not only from what I have read, but through emails he sent to me back when I was interviewing in October.



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  9. muonwhiz

    muonwhiz Senior Member

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    Dr. Ray--
    If you never took any tests during your rotations, then how were you graded? Do you feel that your experiences had an adverse impact on your taking of the COMLEX and/or USMLE? How did you manage to overcome these problems and obtain your license? Do you know of any other osteo schools that run their clinical rotations in the same manner that you have described? Please clarify: are you saying that the AOA does not require schools to have core hospitals that are certified as teaching hospitals? Are you saying that the AOA does not require their schools to have clinical faculty? Sorry for so many questions, but I'm trying to clarify the situation. Thanks for your answers.
     
  10. RDJ

    RDJ

    muonwhiz:

    Go to the upper right of the screen and click search. Conduct a "search by user name" in the Osteopathic Forum by typing in "Kent Ray." He has done a very good job of answering your questions in previous posts. He makes many valid points. However, I have met some students who have had very positive experiences throughout the whole process of their clinicals.
    Nonetheless, Dr. Ray is the resident expert on DMU; he has been through it. I just wish some of the other MS-IV's and graduates from DMU would step forward to round out the discussion. Unfortunately, DMU has been one of the underrepresented schools on this BB. It deserves much of the flack it gets. However, I have met/talked with a handful of students (MSI thru MSIV, including one fellow) from there who love it.
     
  11. Kent Ray

    Kent Ray Member

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    RDJ,
    Thanks for your reply. I am glad that you have an opinion and are willing to take the time to share it with us. I recognize that the Dean has a great reputation and he is probably working hard. The bottom line in everything we do is the result. DMU is over 103 years old and it has fewer affiliated hospitals than Pikesville. They spend almost zero $ on clinical education. I have several examples but I will give only one here. Several years ago the school was approached by a large teaching hospital in Des Moines. They wanted to take our students and they would be an affiliated hospital. The hospital would only take our students if DMU paid something like 100.00 per student per rotation and they (the hospital, essentially university of Iowa) would govern our clinical education. We would have to take the same tests and be expected to know the same material as students from the University of Iowa. Our school turned this down. Trying to be as objective as possible, University of Iowa's clinical education is outstanding. In the last four years there has been no positive change in the clinical education. They are spending money on new buildings, opening new programs in other health related areas, but they have done nothing to improve the quality of clinical education. You say change takes time well don't take this the wrong way but 103 years is long enough. I will continue to try and post factual material good and bad about DMU. I feel that it is healthy for the school to have people "bashing" it. By the way I just sent some money to the general alumni fund.

    Mvonwhiz
    Thanks for your post. I don't know the AOA requirements exactly but I know that they don't require paid teaching faculty. They mandated a Core system in which the various schools have to be affiliated with hospitals by a certain year. I don't believe they put any restrictions on what type, how large, etc....
    During our clinicals we only received pass fail. Let me tell you a story. A friend of mine decided he wanted a month off during his clinical years so he took it. He filled out is evaluations, logs, and sent them in like he completed the rotation. The school never found out. That is just one of many examples of how the school doesn't know or care what we were doing.
    My clinical experience had a large negative adverse effect on my general fund of knowledge. Matter of fact I did an internship just so I could improve on this. I am a hard worker and study almost everyday even in internship. I will be starting internal medicine at University of Iowa in June and I would not have been ready if I had not completed an internship.
    So yes I am more than a little frustrated and upset with DMU. I will always try to be objective. If I say something that you can dispute with facts please fill free.


     
  12. RDJ

    RDJ

    Dr. Ray:

    Perhaps I have been too optimistic [​IMG]. After all, I am an ardent fan of Osteopathic Medicine. However, I cannot even begin to argue against your points. I ask this from you and others at DMU and the osteopathic community. Do not give up! There have been a number of medical schools in the past few years that have had bad times. Some because of funding, some due to a bad administration, etc. DMU needs to some work. Stay on them as you have in the past and encourage others to do the same.

    For everyone else who reads this let me say a couple of things. There is a lot of suffering going on in the medical education arena these days. Here is an article that serves as just one example: http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/beyond/grad/gbhosp.htm There are plenty of examples out there about how certain changes (and lack of changes) are causing havoc on med ed.
    However, there is a lot of background work going on to fix the problems. So have faith. More importantly, join in when possible...get involved.

    By the way, do not forget to read this book: http://www.studentdoctor.net/bbs/Forum3/HTML/002840.html

     
  13. scoren

    scoren Member

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    .



    [This message has been edited by scoren (edited April 08, 2001).]
     
  14. Is Mercy the hospital that you are referring to (here in Des Moines)? The past president really mucked that deal up, but I know that the school (Dr. T) is working very hard to make Mercy an affiliate hospital... I only hope that they can get it done by the time I start my third year as Mercy is a very large hospital that would be able to offer many things to the students here at DMU that the other hospitals do not.
    I feel that in reading many of the postings on this forum and others, many of our (DMU's) third/fourth year students and many recent grads are unhappy with the school. I think a large part of that stems from the fact that for the past (at least) three years, the school has not had a dean in place for longer than 6 months at a time. This causes great problems for any school and prevents the university from making possitive and constructive growth. I sincerely hope (and believe) that Dr. T will be able to make many of these changes to give DMU students not only quality basic sciences education, but quality clinical education as well.
     
  15. ryanpj

    ryanpj Senior Member

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    What can we do as students in Des Moines to get an affiliated hosp?
     
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  17. muonwhiz

    muonwhiz Senior Member

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    I recently received an article from the Des Moines Register dated 10/4/00 regarding DMU continued usage of dog labs. Regardless of whether you believe these should be a part of medical education, if the article is true then the administrative response to the students was poor at best. According to the article:
    * DMU is one of two osteo schools that still uses these labs despite regular student protest
    * students cut the nipples off of the dogs and then attempt to suture them back on
    * the dogs are kept alive up to two weeks later with no pain meds to observe the healing of the sutures
    * none of this is listed in the school literature for prospective students
    * Last year a student named Susan Zito and others got a $4k grant to conduct a lab using human cadavers instead of dogs, and designed an entire curricula
    * students claim that the alternative lab was successful, but Surgery department chair Kendall Reed labeled it as a failure and discontinued it.Asked if there was pressure on students to participate in the dog lab Reed said "if you want to interpret it that way, you can."
    * 175 students signed a petition to the DMU board of directors protesting the lack of adequate alternatives for students with moral objections. The board apparently ignored them.
    Check this out in the newspaper archives if you want to. It looks like a Des Moines attorney has filed a lawsuit (maybe on behalf of students?) and several physicians appeared at a press conference to support this action.
     
  18. Austin Powers

    Austin Powers Junior Member

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    I have done the dog lab and I can tell you without a doubt that everything in that Des Moines Register article was either a gross exaggeration or an outright lie. Students are not forced to take part in the lab. There are alternatives. The dogs are taken from the local pound the day they are scheduled to be put down because no one wanted them. They are treated well and with respect the entire time they are at DMU. They are totally under during all proceedures and never allowed to awake after the proceedures. Dr. Reed is a wonderful student advocate and has always been thoughtful towards those who don't want to take part in this lab. The article in the Register was spawned by two students who are ultra left wing PETA members. If they wanted to really do something about the dog lab they would go out in the community and preach to the animal owners who over breed the dogs or the lame people who just take their dogs to the pound when they get too lazy to take care of them. If you are not a student here and haven't taken part in the lab, shut the hell up you don't know what you are talking about.

    Austin
     
  19. hankhill

    hankhill Member

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    Posted by Austin Powers: If you are not a student here and haven't taken part in the lab, shut the hell up you don't know what you are talking about.

    Reply: Temper, Temper Austin! I guess you have to kill one to "know what you are talking about." Calm down. You are slamming a potential student for relaying what they found to be published by a local newspaper. Instead, why don't you direct them to the school's reponse that was published in the same newspaper shortly after the first dog lab article. It provides much more information to support your stance than the statement "shut the hell up you don't know what you are talking about." I don't agree with the school's position, but I think that it is only fair that everyone hear their side of the debate. To find out more information about both articles, contact the Des Moines Register. For a forum on the dog labs, go to: http://www.studentdoctor.org/ubb/Forum3/HTML/001621.html


    hankhill



    [This message has been edited by hankhill (edited April 26, 2001).]
     
  20. muonwhiz

    muonwhiz Senior Member

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    Thanks, Hank! As for you Austin, I'll say what I want whenever I want just as long as the First Amendment remains in place.
     
  21. kidterrific

    kidterrific Senior Member

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    To the guy who chewed off Muon's head,

    If a patient asks you the same question, are you going to react that way with them? You better take an anger management course, my friend. Muon has done nothing but post constructive opinions on this website, and for you to bash him for quoting an article he found is just plain ignorant.

    Austin Powers stands for free love, baby! Don't forsake the name.

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  22. Austin Powers

    Austin Powers Junior Member

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    Oh dear, I told Muon to "shut the hell up". Twenty lashes with a wet noodle for me! Maybe I do need some anger management classes but it fires me up when someone bashes DMU programs like the Dog Lab without any personal experience. What was his motivation in posting that obviously one sided article? My purpose is to defend a program that I think is an invaluable experience. I have dogs. I love my dog. I think it is a shame that there aren't good homes and families for these dogs. What is better, a dog being just put down like these would have been, or the possibility of someone learning a little from it. When was the last time anyone made a skin incision in a cadaver that bled? The first time you try to suture a real person who is bleeding you will appreciate the experience. Am I telling you that you can't disagree with DMU's choice of having this dog lab, no, absolutely not. Yes the First Amendment protects your right to free speech, it protects mine too. What makes my opinion any less valuable than yours? I do have more experence on which to base an opinion than you do. What I am saying is that until you are a student here and you have taken part in this course or any other you don't have the information you need to make comments on it. If you are a animal rights person I applaud you for your stance. I believe in many causes also, like ending the legalized murder of millions of innocent children through abortion. If that was the purpose for your post at least have the balls to come out and say it. If you want to change things here at DMU come be a student, work hard, and go through the proper channels. By the way, would I answer a patient's question like I responded to Muon? Obviously not. What the hell kind of stupid question is that?

    Love to ya baby

    Austin
     
  23. kidterrific

    kidterrific Senior Member

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    AP SAYS:
    "Oh dear, I told Muon to "shut the hell up". Twenty lashes with a wet noodle for me! Maybe I do need some anger management classes but it fires me up when someone bashes DMU programs like the Dog Lab without any personal experience....What I am saying is that until you are a student here and you have taken part in this course or any other you don't have the information you need to make comments on it. "

    My Terrific Reply:
    Does that mean I have to be a heroin addict in order to condemn Robert Downey Junior's drug taking ways? Do I need to murder a baby in order to protest abortion? Don't say it's not the same thing. Your response is immature, at best. Plain ignorant, at worst. Here's a hint for you, if you want to argue a point someone makes, try to do it with tact, and try to have some SUBSTANCE in the argument. Just throwing out insults and accusations is absolutely NO way to win an argument.

    To tell you the truth, I side with you. I'm all for the dog labs. Hell, I'd even be happy with a cat lab. Or even a sheep lab. Now that I agree with you, will you try to take my point seriously, or are you going to just use the word 'hell' one more time?


    AP SAYS:
    "By the way, would I answer a patient's question like I responded to Muon? Obviously not. What the hell kind of stupid question is that?"

    My Terrific Reply:
    I asked you a stupid question because you appear to have stupid ways of making a valid point. Stupidity might be the only way to make you understand some things.

    Look, I'm not here to argue with you. I'm trying to tell you that you have a good point, but in my eyes you just went about it all wrong. Muon was just being curious. Don't get all defensive. Why don't you reread Hankhill's post?

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  24. Austin Powers

    Austin Powers Junior Member

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    Kid

    As you know this post is two dimensional. I realize to most of you I seem confrontational. That is not how I am writing. It is not an attack, it is sarcasm. Besides, who wants to read boring posts where everyone gets alone and plays nice. I don't. That isn't how the world works. If you want to talk about attacks, how many times did you use ignorant, stupid, immature in your comments to and references to me? That seems like the pot calling the kettle black. You give great advice and then don't follow it yourself. What's with that?
    Did mommy not pay enough attention to you as a baby? I did read Hanks post. Actually I think it was thoughtful and well worded. I appreciate her putting a link to the articles although both are one sided. I just wonder how and why Muon got a year old article and why it was posted. Again what is the motivation? Where in Muon's post is a request for more information regarding this issue? There isn't one. It is clearly a bash on the program and that is it. Ok, I'm ready for you to throw some more personal insults at me, but I wont stoop to your level Dr Evil. HELL HELL HELL HELL, how is that, I used hell 5 times.

    Austin
     
  25. kidterrific

    kidterrific Senior Member

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    Your response made me laugh. Out loud. And anyone that makes me laugh is a friend of mine. I'm the Diet Coke of Evil. Mooo ha ha!

    For the record, I never once said you were stupid, dumb, ignorant, etc.... I just said that your approach sucked, that's all. But if you're willing to take that as me calling you stupid directly, then I can't argue with you on your own thoughts.

    You're right - posts should be colorful. You made me laugh. You made me cry. You made me fantasize about being beaten with a 'wet noodle.' I'm all veclempt. I must go now.

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  26. Austin Powers

    Austin Powers Junior Member

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    Kid,

    You are coming here to DMU this fall right? Well in all seriousness let me wish you the best of luck here. I hope it is everything you hope it will be. If it isn't, I have no doubt you will help make it better for everyone else.


    Austin

     
  27. kidterrific

    kidterrific Senior Member

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    I have an endocrinology final tomorrow and here I am all over the SDN! Curses!

    AP, I hope you weren't being sarcastic. I AM going to DMU, and I really hope it's all I've been expecting it to be. I'm looking forward to hanging out, and if this forum is just an inkling of the people that are @ DMU, then I'm really excited about it. That includes you, too. I like heated online arguments as much as the next person, but I hope that when I get out there, you guys will be as cool as this forum predicts.

    I was on student council at my current university. I am the type of person to try and change things that suck. Or at least shoot myself in the foot trying.

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  28. ryanpj

    ryanpj Senior Member

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    Well hell, if arguing is the way to make friends on here then I should be very good at making friends. Kid I look foward to arguing with you when you come to DMU in AUG.
     
  29. kidterrific

    kidterrific Senior Member

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    Me too, you moron!

    How's that for a start?!?!? I hope you know I'm only kidding.

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  30. ryanpj

    ryanpj Senior Member

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    Ok Smegma breath, good start.
     

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