Do a lot of people get into medical school without research?

[virtualmaster999]

Hey everyone

How much does research have an effect? Some people tell me it's the "unofficial requirement". I want to do research but it seems like my chances are not looking too good as I'm coming into my junior year. Does a good amount of shadowing and volunteering make up for research or does it truly help the applicant? I want the experience but it seems like my only opportunity will be this summer. I made a previous post that I'm sure some people read. I just want to see how much research helps you or can hurt you if you don't have it.

Thanks!

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[Kochanie]

I think @kyamh quoted something like 20 percent of people get admitted without it. My premed adviser (though, not the best source) told us that a summer of it is "enough", whatever that means. I'm going into junior year and beginning my own project after deciding last summer it was something I want to do. So it's definitely not too late. I found this interesting, if you want to check it out: http://www.usnews.com/education/blo...-school-applications-with-research-experience

Also, have you considered clinical research?

Edit: Grammar

 

[goft20]

I think @kyamh quoted something like 20 percent of people get admitted without it. My premed adviser (though, not the best source) told us that a summer of it is "enough", whatever that means. I'm going into junior year and beginning my own project after deciding last summer it was something I want to do. So it's definitely not too late. I found this interesting, if you want to check it out: http://www.usnews.com/education/blo...-school-applications-with-research-experience

Also, have you considered clinical research?

Edit: Grammar

Dang..that is it??? Wth do you need research to be a practicing physician??


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[Kochanie]

Dang..that is it??? Wth do you need research to be a practicing physician??


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I know, the number kind of stunned me. But I've seen low tier medical schools post something near 50-60 percent, so it's more with the top medical schools.

 

[theseeker4]

Hey everyone

How much does research have an effect? Some people tell me it's the "unofficial requirement". I want to do research but it seems like my chances are not looking too good as I'm coming into my junior year. Does a good amount of shadowing and volunteering make up for research or does it truly help the applicant? I want the experience but it seems like my only opportunity will be this summer. I made a previous post that I'm sure some people read. I just want to see how much research helps you or can hurt you if you don't have it.

Thanks!

Most people have something, and it is a nice plus to your application, but it is not absolutely necessary at most schools. Top research schools will require it (essentially) as will MD/PhD programs (obviously), but many people have gotten in without any. Try to get some in if you can, start by talking to science professors you know, but if you don't get any, it doesn't mean you won't get into medical school.

 

[persumas]

It definitely isn't a requirement, but from experience of bombing an interview question when they asked me why I chose not to do any research during undergrad... it is something that will come up. One way or another. I've been told what adcoms are looking for is a clear understanding of the scientific process and how research fits into being a physician. For most people, getting their hands in research is the best way to gain an understanding of how medicine and research interface.

Also, have you considered clinical research?

I agree, have you considered clinical research? After reading your last post and this one, I feel like you aren't interested in lab work... I was very similar, so I opted to gain some clinical research experience and I have really enjoyed it.

 

[alpinism]

Yes, many people get into med school w/o research.

At the same time, however, most research oriented med schools (USNWR top 50) strongly prefer research experience and quite a few have it as an unwritten requirement.

 

[GoPelicans]

I think a summer is fine for most MD schools, top 10 or so probably like a year of involvement. IMO longitudinal service and leadership EC's are more important for most schools.

 

[aspirantmed]

Dang..that is it??? Wth do you need research to be a practicing physician??


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Even if you don't do research as a practicing physician, it's important that you understand the skills that come from it: (1) the ability to find and analyze information; (2) working through the scientific method and drawing evidence-based conclusions; (3) communicating findings to a professional, possibly public, audience.

If you don't want to do research but still are set on medicine, you should buy a subscription to the AAMC's MSAR guide. It provides the percentage of admitted students at each medical school who have research experience; this ranges from upwards of 90% at elite institutions, and closer to 50-60% at mid/low-tiers or schools that are more focused on clinical medicine and primary care than research. Also look at the mission, values, and curriculum for schools before you apply; from these, you can usually surmise how important research is to a school.

 

[snowflakes]

Also, don't forget that there's a wide range of depth of experience in that 80% number. It includes those who have multiple first author publications as well as those who spent one summer washing glassware and mixing media. They all come under the research tag on the MSAR. Research focused schools will want more of the former type of person, and other schools may just want to see that you got your feet wet with the latter type of work.

 

[kyamh]

@aspirantmed is right on

I would also add that any scientist (including a physician) has a duty to stay up to date within their field. Fully understanding and thinking critically about a research article is a skill that takes practice. Reading a few easy articles as part of a bio class is not enough and a research experience, even one as short as a summer, will help you build that skill. Think about it. A physician could practice for 40+ years. Would you really want to be a patient of a physician who is exclusively using techniques from the 1970s and 1980s?

 

[Wasted Energy]

this ranges from upwards of 90% at elite institutions, and closer to 50-60% at mid/low-tiers or schools that are more focused on clinical medicine and primary care than research.

'

Do you have a couple of examples in mind that have around 50 - 60% with research experience? I only ask because I'm not considering doing any research and I'm applying to mostly primary care centered schools and the absolute LOWEST number on my list is 75%, most are above 80%.

 

[allantois]

From what I am seeing (at least here in the South), the majority of medical students did not have a deep research exposure. I once heard the dean of admissions say that they are not looking for people who "want to sit at the microscope all day long".

 

[Radon XP]

Hey guys, I have a couple of questions since we're on the topic of research:

1) does research for-credit count as research? I was accepted at a program but it requires me to get class credit for it. If so, would I include it on my AMCAS activities section?

2) How much research do you need? What I mean is # of projects, not number of hours. I'll have alot of hours by the time I apply, but it will be in 1 or 2 projects.

 

[Wasted Energy]

From what I am seeing (at least here in the South), the majority of medical students did not have a deep research exposure. I once heard the dean of admissions say that they are not looking for people who "want to sit at the microscope all day long".

See, I really want to believe that this is the case, because I'm in the South as well. The only problem is that this sentiment is not congruent with MSAR data. Like I said earlier, when I look down my list of ~ 10 schools (all in the South) the lowest percentage of applicants with research that I see is 75%, and most are WELL above that. And these aren't exactly high tier schools either.

 

[kyamh]

@Radon XP

Research for credit definitely counts as research.

You need zero projects. Instead, you need to be able to talk about what you have done and what the lab is doing in a way that convinces the interviewer that you have been paying attention and learning.

 

[allantois]

See, I really want to believe that this is the case, because I'm in the South as well. The only problem is that this sentiment is not congruent with MSAR data. Like I said earlier, when I look down my list of ~ 10 schools (all in the South) the lowest percentage of applicants with research that I see is 75%, and most are WELL above that. And these aren't exactly high tier schools either.

I guess that statistics does not differentiate between levels of involvement with research. Can you try to get in a lab for just one semester and do some simple tasks there? That way they could certainly include you in those 75% figures. I think it's a very tricky topic because I took a course designated as a research class but all it we did was talking about how to get involved with research.

 

[secondroundpremed]

I have met repeatedly with my pre-med advisor and have asked this question in a number of ways. The bottom line is that you should only get involved in research if you are truly motivated about the project otherwise not to do it. They recommended that if clinical experience was more interesting to continue with it.

 

[Wasted Energy]

I guess that statistics does not differentiate between levels of involvement with research. Can you try to get in a lab for just one semester and do some simple tasks there? That way they could certainly include you in those 75% figures. I think it's a very tricky topic because I took a course designated as a research class but all it we did was talking about how to get involved with research.

I think that may have something to do with the inconsistency of the statistics as well.

My problem with getting into a lab is that I'm not a science major and have the absolute bare minimum science classes required for med school. I don't think any labs will be willing to take me on when they could take on other students that are genuinely interested in what they are doing, or are at least majoring in that field and will be taking advanced courses in it.

Although, don't let me fool you into thinking I'm bummed about the fact that I can't get any lab experience. I don't want any/don't have time for it. But I would be crazy to think my lack of research won't hurt my chances.

 

[allantois]

OP, I got into a psych lab with only general psychology background (although they should not have taken me and I ended up dropping it). If you go to some kind of research fair at your school you will see that research is done by almost every department and you can certainly do research that has to do with your major. I know an ecology professor who takes students with only a year of general biology into her lab (or rather the field) and I am sure she is not the only one. Plus if you have all prerequisite courses completed that is a fairly large set of skills that you can bring with you (5!! chemistry courses).

I understand where you are coming from because I am also very discouraged about research but I am concerned that so many students do it these days (even though most of those experiences are pretty meaningless). I think medical schools contradict themselves when they tell us to pursue things we are passionate about in undergrad but then expect from us to complete a myriad of well-defined activities.

 

[hoihaie]

research doesnt have to be in science field.

The whole point of being in research is to acquire that critical thinking/analytical mindset. You can do social science research or economics research

 

[masaraksh]

Plus if you have all prerequisite courses completed that is a fairly large set of skills that you can bring with you (5!! chemistry courses).

girl, please.

 

[Radon XP]

@Radon XP

Research for credit definitely counts as research.

You need zero projects. Instead, you need to be able to talk about what you have done and what the lab is doing in a way that convinces the interviewer that you have been paying attention and learning.

Does research for-credit appear in the activities section?

 

[kyamh]

Does research for-credit appear in the activities section?

No, research for credit is part of your transcript. That said, I listed the research under the regular research heading and talked about it in a most meaningful essay. I worked in the same lab the whole time - sometime volunteering, sometime paid over the summer, sometime for credit, and now as a full time employee. I grouped the whole lot of experiences under research in general.

 

[NeuroticTwilightSparkle]

About 80% of matriculants have research experience, but does anyone know what percentage of applicants have done research?

 

[Radon XP]

No, research for credit is part of your transcript. That said, I listed the research under the regular research heading and talked about it in a most meaningful essay. I worked in the same lab the whole time - sometime volunteering, sometime paid over the summer, sometime for credit, and now as a full time employee. I grouped the whole lot of experiences under research in general.

So there's a separate research section not part of the activities section?

 

[kyamh]

So there's a separate research section not part of the activities section?

No, there is an activities label called "research". The activities section has a drop down menu to choose a classification for each activity you list. I chose to talk about all of my research experiences under the label research in the drop down menu. The activities section is basically name of activity, hours, drop-down choice of activity type, blank box for the description.

 

[Radon XP]

No, there is an activities label called "research". The activities section has a drop down menu to choose a classification for each activity you list. I chose to talk about all of my research experiences under the label research in the drop down menu. The activities section is basically name of activity, hours, drop-down choice of activity type, blank box for the description.

Oh ok. If you have experience at 2 different, unrelated labs, should you stick them under one heading called "research" or give one a separate heading (the other is for-credit so I'm guessing I wouldn't include it at all )

 

[Shjanzey]

I have no research, but I am non-trad, so maybe life experience makes up for it?

 

[kyamh]

Oh ok. If you have experience at 2 different, unrelated labs, should you stick them under one heading called "research" or give one a separate heading (the other is for-credit so I'm guessing I wouldn't include it at all )

It depends on your preference. If you have a lot to say, you will probably want to split it up so you have more room. If you have lots of activities that are not research, you probably don't want to waste two slots rather than just taking one. If you have almost nothing to say about your two experiences, you probably want to group them. You also don't have to list all your activities. If you have little to say about one lab and lots about the other, you can drop one all together and just talk about your more significant experience. Almost all students have more than 15 things they could put down for activities. The trick is that you have to decide which 6-12 are the most important to you and are the ones you want to talk about. (I say up to 12 because SDN wisdom tells us that filling all 15 slots is usually not a great idea since you are not THAT invested in all 15).

 

[mrh125]

I think @kyamh quoted something like 20 percent of people get admitted without it. My premed adviser (though, not the best source) told us that a summer of it is "enough", whatever that means. I'm going into junior year and beginning my own project after deciding last summer it was something I want to do. So it's definitely not too late. I found this interesting, if you want to check it out: http://www.usnews.com/education/blo...-school-applications-with-research-experience

Also, have you considered clinical research?

Edit: Grammar

I'm really surprised with what you said about how many people get admitted without research. What makes up for the lack of research? I know a few people that have been rejected at certain schools for the lack of research ECs they have.

 

[kyamh]

I'm really surprised with what you said about how many people get admitted without research. What makes up for the lack of research? I know a few people that have been rejected at certain schools for the lack of research ECs they have.

How do you know they were rejected for no research? If these applicants were looking at the top research universities then it makes sense. If we are talking about state schools with relatively low key research, then I am sure there were more reasons than "no research".

 

[mrh125]

How do you know they were rejected for no research? If these applicants were looking at the top research universities then it makes sense. If we are talking about state schools with relatively low key research, then I am sure there were more reasons than "no research".

One of them had a chance to have his application reviewed at creighton I believe and that's what he was told. The rest were from research institutions I believe. What you're saying is really interesting though as I always thought of research as requirement that was necessary to go to medical school.

 

[LostinLift]

I have met repeatedly with my pre-med advisor and have asked this question in a number of ways. The bottom line is that you should only get involved in research if you are truly motivated about the project otherwise not to do it. They recommended that if clinical experience was more interesting to continue with it.

Careful. EVEN if your school is directly associated with a medical school, pre-med advisors have been known to be rather disconnected from the current process.


And while you shouldn't box check, it will only help to have all the boxes checked.

 

[Wasted Energy]

I always thought of research as requirement that was necessary to go to medical school.

Nah man, if you have the MSAR check out the "selection factors" tab. It shows the % of accepted applicants with research experience. Ranges anywhere from ~ 70% to almost 100% at research heavy schools. Usually around low to mid eighties though. I think that's where Kochanie is getting the 20% that are accepted without any research at all.

 

[jm192]

In general, I think it's just another piece. Most outside the classroom stuff helps to paint the picture that you can balance class and other stuff. I know people that worked full-time jobs as pre-meds, so research wasn't as doable.

I feel like a lot of undergraduate work in research isn't that impressive. Sure there are people who design elaborate projects and publish in major journals. For each of those, there are countless others that are doing scut work and adding no intellectual contribution. It's nice that you've learned those techniques. But, you probably get a lot of them from your basic bio labs. I don't envision Adcoms giving you a major boost for every research listing.

If you're seriously considering MD/PHD, then of course it's highly important.

I think the 80% probably tells the wrong story. You read it as--well, I better do research.
But, I think it just speaks more to the fact that people that get accepted are highly motivated and generally do EVERYTHING to make their application as complete as they can. Is it that the Adcoms are looking for it, or that everyone decided they need to have it?

You send in a really strong application that is only lacking in research--someone is going to accept you.

 

[NeuroticTwilightSparkle]

I think the 80% probably tells the wrong story. You read it as--well, I better do research.
But, I think it just speaks more to the fact that people that get accepted are highly motivated and generally do EVERYTHING to make their application as complete as they can. Is it that the Adcoms are looking for it, or that everyone decided they need to have it?

I agree. I think this statistic is rather meaningless without knowing what % of applicants vs % of matriculants/accepted students have done research

 

[orangeman25]

Of the people that get into medical school with research, what proportion do you think have a research LOR? Is it common to have one?

 

[Chillbo Baggins]

Research I did: 0

Still managed to get in. At this stage, unless you want to go to a research-heavy top school, only do it if you really want to.

 

[KnuxNole]

I got into med school without ANY research. Which is good, cause me and research are never a good pair. Never have done it, never will.

I was afraid that I would have to be forced to do that, but thankfully, that wasn't the case for med school, residency and beyond, etc. After all, for a career goal, I want to be a physician, plain and simple. This might results in flames from the ambitious pre allo crowd, but I greatly dislike anything academia related by far. Being in that environment for med school/residency would make me a sad panda. Even if I did force research, I wouldn't fit in by a longshot. People there would be intellectual and analytical, while I would be a dumb **** who usually talks in a manner like "So like, this one disease, is like totally bad, so you need to like, stop smoking or whatever, mmmkay?""

 

[hoihaie]

Of the people that get into medical school with research, what proportion do you think have a research LOR? Is it common to have one?

should be pretty high. A lot of schools require or prefer a lor from research advisors if you did research

 

[silentshadow59]

@KnuxNole I'm just like you! Do you know a few schools off the top of your head that I should apply to where my complete lack of research won't be detrimental? I would like to hear everyone else's opinions on this too! I've been hearing it is a big factor for "most" universities so I am getting worried. It is the only missing piece of my app as a whole, and I already submitted my primary apps but I will likely add more schools if you have some advice. thanks in advance!

 

[el_duderino]

Where does the AAMC get these stats?

I just took a matriculant survey that asked me to check off boxes regarding research experience. I checked off "clinical research" or something like that. If that's where they're getting it, then "research experience" means whatever the person taking the survey thinks it means.

 

[QuantumJ]

Didn't have a single piece of research for my app and it didn't come up once (granted I had no desire to go to a research oriented school)