Do Academic medicine physicians really make less than private practcounterparts?

[patel2]

Do they really get paid less or is it just less of a base salary. Seems like lots of these docs give paid PPT presentations for drug companies and reps and make tons of money on the side. I'm assuming they also get great retirement/health/malpractice benefits to work at these hospitals, and that it probably isn't as long of a work week as a private practice, and so you could technically have a side practice as well. I also don't know anything about research- do they get paid the more publications/books they pump out?

Is there really a salary disparity after all is considered? Are academic positions typically more competitive to get?


in b4

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[ozzi22]

let the flaming begin

 

[skyhyp2009]

Do they really get paid less or is it just less of a base salary. Seems like lots of these docs give paid PPT presentations for drug companies and reps and make tons of money on the side. I'm assuming they also get great retirement/health/malpractice benefits to work at these hospitals, and that it probably isn't as long of a work week as a private practice, and so you could technically have a side practice as well.

Is there really a salary disparity after all is considered? Are academic positions typically more competitive to get?


in b4

I'm not an expert, but I think it's probably base salary. But I think it'll be much harder to give paid presentations that you think. And yes, the competition for academic positions is much greater...and prestige (aka where you go to medical school) become much more important.

 

[patel2]

I'm not an expert, but I think it's probably base salary. But I think it'll be much harder to give paid presentations that you think. And yes, the competition for academic positions is much greater...and prestige (aka where you go to medical school) become much more important.

just seems strange that the derm/opth/anes/lifestyle specialties are the most competitive to get into. Why would academic medicine also be really competitive to get jobs if it isn't as well paying as being a private practice doc.

 

[Evergrey]

just seems strange that the derm/opth/anes/lifestyle specialties are the most competitive to get into. Why would academic medicine also be really competitive to get jobs if it isn't as well paying as being a private practice doc.

Academic medicine is competitive because it's debatably more interesting and stimulating.. you can: 1) educate future physicians 2) participate in cutting edge research 3) get referrals for patients with complex cases that can't be treated at community hospitals 4) have less pressure to produce monetary results 5) participate in and develop health care policy or medical treatment standards 6) experience a sense of camaraderie from participating in an academic community instead of being, say, the only neurologist in your zip code.

There's much more to "lifestyle" than money. Sure, if all you care about is money, then definitely don't go academic.

 

[patel2]

Academic medicine is competitive because it's debatably more interesting and stimulating.. you can: 1) educate future physicians 2) participate in cutting edge research 3) get referrals for patients with complex cases that can't be treated at community hospitals 4) have less pressure to produce monetary results 5) participate in and develop health care policy or medical treatment standards 6) experience a sense camaraderie from participating in an academic community instead of being, say, the only neurologist in your zip code.

There's much more to "lifestyle" than money.

true but instead of pressure to get monetary results, isn't that replaced with tons of pressure to pump out publications and new studies?

 

[skyhyp2009]

just seems strange that the derm/opth/anes/lifestyle specialties are the most competitive to get into. Why would academic medicine also be really competitive to get jobs if it isn't as well paying as being a private practice doc.

I think you're confusing something here....

you can do derm/rad/opth and do academic medicine as well...

obviously you won't be making as much as you would be in private practice, but academic medicine isn't a specific specialty you test into...it's more of how you carry out your specialty.

And seriously, people do medicine for more than money even if they might not be the majority. And those are the ones leading the way in discovery/technology

 

[DrYoda]

Do they really get paid less or is it just less of a base salary.

They generally make less. There are exceptions.


Also, when did it become competitive to get a job in academics? It might be competitive to land department chair at Hopkins, but I wouldn't make the blanket statement of academics=competitive.

Edit: food for thought. http://jco.ascopubs.org/content/19/1/260.full.pdf

http://www.acr.org/SecondaryMainMen...uredCategories/GroupPractice/APPA/Crisis.aspx

 

[Brachyury]

Oh, you kids and your crazy thoughts . . .

First, there are several different types of academic appointments: two examples are that you can be a full-time, tenured faculty member who sees patients and does research, or you could be a non-tenured faculty member of a medical school who works at a private or government hospital. There is also a difference in landing a position at UCSF where you have your own lab and get to see patients vs. getting an adjunct appointment at a community hospital affiliated with Jefferson.

Some specialties, such as RadOnc, primarily only exist at academic hospitals. In most specialties, however, while there is a pay difference, this gap can vary between specialties. If you consult academic salary surveys, such as the AAMC's report on academic salaries, the gap between a private practice and academic dermatologist isnt' that much, but the difference between an academic heme/onc and private practice one is quite large.

There are other varaibles to consider. A private practice physician in rural Kentucky will probably make more than one in LA County. Additionally, the most prestigious hospitals tend to pay lower than other academic hospitals: i.e an anesthesiologist at UCSF will have a lower starting salary than one at the University of Arizona.

 

[munchymanRX]

Do they really get paid less or is it just less of a base salary. Seems like lots of these docs give paid PPT presentations for drug companies and reps and make tons of money on the side. I'm assuming they also get great retirement/health/malpractice benefits to work at these hospitals, and that it probably isn't as long of a work week as a private practice, and so you could technically have a side practice as well. I also don't know anything about research- do they get paid the more publications/books they pump out?

Is there really a salary disparity after all is considered? Are academic positions typically more competitive to get?


in b4

Physicians who have academic appointments have their salaries capped. At what level depends on the academic institution. However, it is arguably 'lower stress' than a private practice type lifestyle in that the institution will tend to push you towards doing more research. If that's what you want, then great!


Money isn't everything. It's important, but past a certain point lifestyle becomes a huge factor in determining what kind of doctor you want to be.

 

[Narmerguy]

You might check out the thread on academic physicians in the mentor's forum (way near the bottom on the list of forums). It's stocked with tons of good info mainly provided by Tildy.

About your question, I was also under the impression that academic physicians typically worked more hours as well. Don't know how true this is...

 

[IlDestriero]

I'm an academic anesthesiologist in a prominent Children's Hospital. I have a non research track position. Promotion is related to superior clinical skills and teaching, and I have no research requirements. I took the job because of it's significant, to me, lifestyle benefits. (teaching, pace of day, diversity of cases, abundance of very challenging cases, quality of surgeons, innovation, fair $$, hours/free time, lighter call, etc.) There are lifestyle oriented PP jobs, but that is not the norm. I make about the same as the national average anesthesiologist salary. (By design to attract and retain quality physicians.) I only work about 40-45 hours a week, the research folks work fewer clinical hours, to make time for research activities. If I wanted to work harder/faster and about 20% more hours, I could make 25-75% more. Keep in mind that the highest paying jobs are often quite competitive and/or usually in locations I would want to live. Partnerships are not guaranteed in PP, and there may also be "superpartners" siphoning off $$. There is also uncertainty about future contracts in PP which don't really exist in Academics. I also have a generous benefits package. You can find good benefits in PP as well however. Every practice and/or medical school is different. You have to evaluate the whole package.
BTW, UCSF pay is ludicrous because all UC hospital anesthesia pay is a joke, not because UCSF is a top program. Harvard affiliated hospital pay is lower than the norm because it's harvard, and many people want to work there. I'll take the same lifestyle and significantly more money elsewhere. It's also worth noting that higher paying academic jobs are more the exception than the rule.

 

[Isoprop]

I'm an academic anesthesiologist in a prominent Children's Hospital. I have a non research track position. Promotion is related to superior clinical skills and teaching, and I have no research requirements. I took the job because of it's significant, to me, lifestyle benefits. (teaching, pace of day, diversity of cases, abundance of very challenging cases, quality of surgeons, innovation, fair $$, hours/free time, lighter call, etc.) There are lifestyle oriented PP jobs, but that is not the norm. I make about the same as the national average anesthesiologist salary. (By design to attract and retain quality physicians.) I only work about 40-45 hours a week, the research folks work fewer clinical hours, to make time for research activities. If I wanted to work harder/faster and about 20% more hours, I could make 25-75% more. Keep in mind that the highest paying jobs are often quite competitive and/or usually in locations I would want to live. Partnerships are not guaranteed in PP, and there may also be "superpartners" siphoning off $$. There is also uncertainty about future contracts in PP which don't really exist in Academics. I also have a generous benefits package. You can find good benefits in PP as well however. Every practice and/or medical school is different. You have to evaluate the whole package.
BTW, UCSF pay is ludicrous because all UC hospital anesthesia pay is a joke, not because UCSF is a top program. Harvard affiliated hospital pay is lower than the norm because it's harvard, and many people want to work there. I'll take the same lifestyle and significantly more money elsewhere. It's also worth noting that higher paying academic jobs are more the exception than the rule.

This sounds absolutely beautiful to me esp since I love teaching. Does the "prestige" or "rank" of your education/training matter in obtaining clinical/non-research academic positions?

 

[IlDestriero]

This sounds absolutely beautiful to me esp since I love teaching. Does the "prestige" or "rank" of your education/training matter in obtaining clinical/non-research academic positions?

You have to be able to be comfortable handling the frequent high acuity patients, and occasional unbelievably sick and unstable patients that you will have referred to your hospital. It's easier to get that level of training at a strong fellowship. All residencies and fellowships have minimum standards, but they're not all equal by a long shot. If you were a superstar at an average program, you might get an offer. Research candidates have to have experience, realistic goals, a plan, etc.
The last few years have been extremely competitive for people interested in joining our department. We only interviewed people with significant experience and new fellowship graduates from a handful of standout pediatric anesthesia programs. That's the reality now. Things are probably not going to get any easier in the next few years either. The prestige of your training can help you get an interview, but it's your LORs and interview close the deal.
Good luck.

 

[Isoprop]

You have to be able to be comfortable handling the frequent high acuity patients, and occasional unbelievably sick and unstable patients that you will have referred to your hospital. It's easier to get that level of training at a strong fellowship. All residencies and fellowships have minimum standards, but they're not all equal by a long shot. If you were a superstar at an average program, you might get an offer. Research candidates have to have experience, realistic goals, a plan, etc.
The last few years have been extremely competitive for people interested in joining our department. We only interviewed people with significant experience and new fellowship graduates from a handful of standout pediatric anesthesia programs. That's the reality now. Things are probably not going to get any easier in the next few years either. The prestige of your training can help you get an interview, but it's your LORs and interview close the deal.
Good luck.

Thanks. I hadn't realized that such positions were so highly competitive.

 

[IlDestriero]

Thanks. I hadn't realized that such positions were so highly competitive.

Just to be clear, many academic jobs are not very competitive at all. Good jobs, with fair pay, in desirable cities are always competitive.

 

[Narmerguy]

Just to be clear, many academic jobs are not very competitive at all. Good jobs, with fair pay, in desirable cities are always competitive.

Thanks for all that advice. It was very illuminating.

Edit: Read this again...just to be clear, this was not supposed to sound sarcastic.