Do Bashing......

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HoodyHoo

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Okay, now that I have your attention....
I was talking to one of my friends, who has many friends in MD school, and she said that many of them do not respect DO's and also believe that MD school is much harder than DO school.......

Without starting a war, I'm curious as to specific reasons why they believe this. I mean, is there experimental data that shows that DO's are worse doctors or DO school is "easier".

Besides the fact that it is easier to get accepted into a DO school, what brings many MD students to these generalizations??? If you are a MD student I would honestly like to hear your opinion, and if you can throw in some examples or anything that led you to your view of DOs, then by all means.............

I just feel like many MD's and MD students say crap like this when in fact they have no specific experiences leading them to this negative attitude towards DOs. while staying calm and not getting too heated, what do you guys think?

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Simply put... because they are ignorant (as in uniformed) and incorrect - there's not much to it other than that. Osteopathy of earlier days was very different from Osteopathic Medicine of today. In current times, DO's and MD's are trained in a very parallel manner, with mostly only a difference in philosophical approach (other than the fact that DO's also learn OMM).
 
I'd bet if you ask a group of true MD's (not students), who have worked/currently work with DO's, you'll get a completely different answer...
 
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I personally think it's simple human behavior.

MDs feel they're better than DOs, DOs feel they're better than MDs...

MDs from school A think they're better than MDs from school B, and DOs from this COM think they're better than students from that other COM.

Surgeons think they're better than generalists, generalists think they're better than surgeons...

You get the idea.

People always think they're better than someone else. I personally haven't experience any negativity from anyone.
 
jonb12997 said:
I'd bet if you ask a group of true MD's (not students), who have worked/currently work with DO's, you'll get a completely different answer...

Absolutely correct,
I work in an ER of a teaching hospital in chgo every one for the MD residents said that DO is just the same, basically a different history. They respect them and don't even consider them anything different them themselves. And when you talk to MD attendings, they don't even blink an eye to a DO degree. According to the MD residents, when it comes to "immature" MD students, its like a sophomore in highschool making fun of a freshmen. But then they grow up, graduate, and it doesn't matter anymore.
 
At MSUCOM, the MD and DO basic science courses are taught together. So, we absolutely have the same education as them. I think DO bashing exists more amongst premeds who have preconceived notions about what Osteopathy really is.
 
Its lack of knowledge on MD students to say stuff like that. With respect to getting into school, DO is easier than MD. But lets be honest, DO's are just as much docs coming out of schools as MD's, in fact, we know more. And our philosohpy is no far fetched, especially since it has shown to work. Bottom line, how well of a doctor a person becomes is not what medical school they went to or how smart they did on tests, its how well they understand real life situations. IMO, clinical rotations do just that and as DO's we do that as well. DPM is another degree for doctors of podiatry. Thats their specialty. Should we not appreciate their efforts because they chose to specialize and learn more about the feet. Lets be real. At the end of the day, we do the same things as MD's and thats what counts. How we got there really doesnt matter, DO, MD, and DPM. Besides, DO students are cooler.
 
Once any physician gets into the working world he or she has to make a name for themselves. It doesn't matter if you are an MD or a DO it is about reputation as a caregiver. Yes it is nice to be respected by your peers and they can help with referrals and such, but it all comes down to the patients. Will they schedule an appointment with you?
 
To qoute a famous Simpson, this thread is "Booooring!!!" :sleep:

Do you we have to rehash the same 'ol arguments day after day? If the OP wants to know more there are numerous threads on this topic.
 
djquick83 said:
With respect to getting into school, DO is easier than MD. DO students are cooler.


Hmmm...I got into 4 MD schools, but was waitlisted at my first choice DO school. (Which I will take over my acceptances at MD schools any day of the week). I think DO acceptance is not easier to gain. But I agree with you 100%, DO students are way cooler. :D
 
djquick83 said:
Its lack of knowledge on MD students to say stuff like that. With respect to getting into school, DO is easier than MD. But lets be honest, DO's are just as much docs coming out of schools as MD's, in fact, we know more. And our philosohpy is no far fetched, especially since it has shown to work. Bottom line, how well of a doctor a person becomes is not what medical school they went to or how smart they did on tests, its how well they understand real life situations. IMO, clinical rotations do just that and as DO's we do that as well. DPM is another degree for doctors of podiatry. Thats their specialty. Should we not appreciate their efforts because they chose to specialize and learn more about the feet. Lets be real. At the end of the day, we do the same things as MD's and thats what counts. How we got there really doesnt matter, DO, MD, and DPM. Besides, DO students are cooler.

DPM? They aren't physicians dude. Only MD's & DO's are recognized as medical physicians in all 50 states.
 
There seems to be some general confusion about this. I've seen many people argue it each way. I'm not sure myself. :confused:
 
djquick83 said:
Its lack of knowledge on MD students to say stuff like that. With respect to getting into school, DO is easier than MD. But lets be honest, DO's are just as much docs coming out of schools as MD's, in fact, we know more. And our philosohpy is no far fetched, especially since it has shown to work. Bottom line, how well of a doctor a person becomes is not what medical school they went to or how smart they did on tests, its how well they understand real life situations. IMO, clinical rotations do just that and as DO's we do that as well. DPM is another degree for doctors of podiatry. Thats their specialty. Should we not appreciate their efforts because they chose to specialize and learn more about the feet. Lets be real. At the end of the day, we do the same things as MD's and thats what counts. How we got there really doesnt matter, DO, MD, and DPM. Besides, DO students are cooler.

:thumbup: I 2nd that!
 
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Marianne11 said:
Hmmm...I got into 4 MD schools, but was waitlisted at my first choice DO school. (Which I will take over my acceptances at MD schools any day of the week). I think DO acceptance is not easier to gain. But I agree with you 100%, DO students are way cooler. :D


yep, DO schools are not easier. I really think these schools really evaluate your people skills. At an MD interview, I was asked about research, ethics, etc. nothing really about me. At UNE, the entire interview was about getting to know me as a person which I felt more at home with... This really impressed me. At UNE, I was told they rejected someone w/ a 30 mcat 3.5 gpa because the kid didn't know how to establish rapport
 
HoodyHoo said:
Okay, now that I have your attention....
I was talking to one of my friends, who has many friends in MD school, and she said that many of them do not respect DO's and also believe that MD school is much harder than DO school.......

Without starting a war, I'm curious as to specific reasons why they believe this. I mean, is there experimental data that shows that DO's are worse doctors or DO school is "easier".

Besides the fact that it is easier to get accepted into a DO school, what brings many MD students to these generalizations??? If you are a MD student I would honestly like to hear your opinion, and if you can throw in some examples or anything that led you to your view of DOs, then by all means.............

I just feel like many MD's and MD students say crap like this when in fact they have no specific experiences leading them to this negative attitude towards DOs. while staying calm and not getting too heated, what do you guys think?


I know two DO surgery residents, two DO family medicine residents, and another chief of the family medicine department. No one gives where they came from a second thought. If you're from Harvard and you suck, then you suck. If you're from TCOM and you're good, then you're good.

Some people just don't seem realize how much its up to them. Geez, I went to medical school in Lubbock, Texas, and I'm doing my 3rd and 4th year in El Paso. Do I think I'm less qualified because I had to live in West Texas for two years? No, but there are quite a few people out there who would like to think so. Oh well.
 
Pharos said:
There seems to be some general confusion about this. I've seen many people argue it each way. I'm not sure myself. :confused:

No confusion here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physician

It's M.D. or D.O.---that's it.

-------------------
And one from dictionary.com:

Main Entry: phy·si·cian
Pronunciation: f&-'zish-&n
Function: noun
: a skilled health-care professional trained and licensed to practice medicine; specifically : a doctor of medicine or osteopathy
 
I think MD schools are easy once you get in. Majority of them are pass/fail basis and almost everyone makes it. I have seen this myself because I am at allopathic institution. I'm really worried if I can survive the DO curriculum next year because it seems more challenging than the ones I saw at allopathic school.
 
OSUdoc08 said:
DPM? They aren't physicians dude. Only MD's & DO's are recognized as medical physicians in all 50 states.

Sounds like a physician to me. :rolleyes:
http://www.usd.edu/biol/biocareers/health-related/podiatry/

I dont know about other states, but in NYC, u need at least a 30 on the MCATs and a minimum of 3.5 GPA to be considered for MD. For DO, its like 3.2 and 23 on MCAT. I guess it may be only in NY cause there is so much competition to the allopathics that ppl dont wanna do Osteopathic, therefore lower requirements to get more ppl to come to DO school.
 
djquick83 said:

The word "physician" isn't on that entire page. Ironically, on the same website, the word physician is used to describe both D.O.'s and M.D.'s.

http://www.usd.edu/biol/biocareers/health-related/osteopathy/index.html

http://www.usd.edu/biol/biocareers/health-related/medicine/index.html

djquick83 said:
I dont know about other states, but in NYC, u need at least a 30 on the MCATs and a minimum of 3.5 GPA to be considered for MD. For DO, its like 3.2 and 23 on MCAT. I guess it may be only in NY cause there is so much competition to the allopathics that ppl dont wanna do Osteopathic, therefore lower requirements to get more ppl to come to DO school.

Agreed.
 
djquick83 said:
Sounds like a physician to me. :rolleyes:
http://www.usd.edu/biol/biocareers/health-related/podiatry/

I dont know about other states, but in NYC, u need at least a 30 on the MCATs and a minimum of 3.5 GPA to be considered for MD. For DO, its like 3.2 and 23 on MCAT. I guess it may be only in NY cause there is so much competition to the allopathics that ppl dont wanna do Osteopathic, therefore lower requirements to get more ppl to come to DO school.

DPM's are as much physicians as you would say a dentist is. Both can perform surgery, treat patients, prescribe medication etc., but all limited to their specialty. I think the confusion here is in how the word "physician" is used. Typically is used strictly when talking about medical doctors (MDs and DOs) and not when talking about other doctors of "such and such" specialty.

J
 
DOitright said:
DPM's are as much physicians as you would say a dentist is. Both can perform surgery, treat patients, prescribe medication etc., but all limited to their specialty. I think the confusion here is in how the word "physician" is used. Typically is used strictly when talking about medical doctors (MDs and DOs) and not when talking about other doctors of "such and such" specialty.

J

Non-Physicians (Limited Medical Privileges by state/hospital/etc.):
DPM, DC, DDS, DMD, DVM, OD, Pharm.D., Psy.D., Ph.D., DPT, D.N.Sc., ND, DOM, Au.D., etc.

Physicians (Unlimited Medical Privileges in all states/hospitals/etc.):
MD, DO
 
OSUdoc08 said:
Non-Physicians (Limited Medical Privileges by state/hospital/etc.):
DPM, DC, DDS, DMD, DVM, OD, etc.

Physicians (Unlimited Medical Privileges in all states/hospitals/etc.):
MD, DO

I agree...my last post was more directed to djquick83. I think s/he was a little confused with the term "physician", I however agree with what you've said!

J :thumbup:
 
OSUdoc08 said:
Non-Physicians (Limited Medical Privileges by state/hospital/etc.):
DPM, DC, DDS, DMD, DVM, OD, Pharm.D., Psy.D., Ph.D., DPT, D.N.Sc., ND, DOM, Au.D., etc.

Physicians (Unlimited Medical Privileges in all states/hospitals/etc.):
MD, DO

is it really unlimited? i thought i read somewhere that physicians cant do the stuff dentists do or something :confused:
 
DOitright said:
I agree...my last post was more directed to djquick83. I think s/he was a little confused with the term "physician", I however agree with what you've said!

J :thumbup:


According to the US Department of Health and Human Services, Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services, the definition of PHYSICIAN does include DDS and DPM although under the limitations of their practice. Check the link for definition of physician.

http://www.cms.hhs.gov/manuals/14_car/3b2000.asp#_1_7
 
DO or MD................either way you are gonna get sued at least once for trying to help people...........either way you are gonna get charged out the a** for professional liability insurance..........don't really know why we argue all med schools are hard, and by the time you get to residency it doesn't matter you are all in the same hell!
 
djquick83 said:
But lets be honest, DO's are just as much docs coming out of schools as MD's, in fact, we know more.

Yes you know so much more than MDs that only 65-70% of DOs who OPT to take Step I (a more motivated subset) pass, while ALL MDs who have to take Step I average around a 90% pass rate.
 
Fantasy Sports said:
Yes you know so much more than MDs that only 65-70% of DOs who OPT to take Step I (a more motivated subset) pass, while ALL MDs who have to take Step I average around a 90% pass rate.
I love the idea of taking the COMLEX one week, and then taking the USMLE the next. It's just that easy. Kinda like taking the MCAT 4 times in two weeks. Not stressful at all. In fact i bet i'd do better on the USMLE after bashing my brain for 16 hours over two days on the COMLEX than if I was only taking the USMLE. But that is just me, Awesome-ODO... awesome.
 
Fantasy Sports said:
Yes you know so much more than MDs that only 65-70% of DOs who OPT to take Step I (a more motivated subset) pass, while ALL MDs who have to take Step I average around a 90% pass rate.

Actually, to be honest, I believe it's kind of sad that the difference between MD and DO pass rates is just 19% considering (1) the huge difference in numbers between MD and DO test takers and (2) the fact that the USMLE is required for MD licensure and not DO licensure. I would imagine if MDs were so much more qualified than DOs that DOs would do considerably worse than MDs on the USMLE. (Foreign medical graduates -non US or Canadian- were 28% worse).

http://www.usmle.org/scores/2003perf.htm

First time pass rate for US/Canadian MDs = 93%
First time pass rate for US DOs = 74%
First time pass rate for FMGs = 65%

Looking at Step 3 results, you'll be surprised to know that the difference between MDs and DOs was a measly 3% in 2003 (!!). This is quite significant to me because Step 3 is almost exclusively clinical. The numbers prove to me that MDs and DOs are on an equal footing clinically. After all, a 3% difference is hardly significant or hardly "proof" that MDs are more capable clinically than DOs (as a matter of fact, in 2002, DOs had a pass rate of 97% on Step 3 compared to 95% for MDs. The *total* pass rate in 2002 for Step 3 first time takers and repeat takers was 92% for MDs and 96% for DOs - a difference of 4% !! That difference is important because Step 3 is actually a test that correlates better with real life clinical practice...and DOs performed better than MDs...big surprise there).

If you read the purpose of Step 3, you'll realize that the test is exactly what DOs are best suited for: excellent patient care and proficient management of disease processes. http://www.usmle.org/step3/purpose.htm

And yes, I agree that this thread is going to seriously degenerate soon...and I probably contributed to that.
 
Fantasy Sports said:
Yes you know so much more than MDs that only 65-70% of DOs who OPT to take Step I (a more motivated subset) pass, while ALL MDs who have to take Step I average around a 90% pass rate.

You cannot generalize like this. Signing up to take the USMLE by no means places one in the "motivated" group. I know several people who took it who never should have and did really poorly. I even advised them against it, but some people just look at the USMLE like rolling the dice as a DO. Its pretty much an exam that can help you if you do well, but doesn't have to even be reported should you blow it. DO's often mis-time their USMLE because they have to time their COMLEX at the exactly perfect time. Trust me friend, take your USMLE, and then 5 days later take our COMLEX after you have been burned out, all the while having to study again but in a different fashion. I took both the exams and scored 99th percentile on COMLEX and 232/94 on USMLE. The issue is that if I had to do it in reverse order, studying for the USMLE first and formost followed by only a few days studying COMLEX, I believe my scores would be mirror images of each other.
 
Fantasy Sports said:
Yes you know so much more than MDs that only 65-70% of DOs who OPT to take Step I (a more motivated subset) pass, while ALL MDs who have to take Step I average around a 90% pass rate.

Imagine one group studying only for the SAT and the other group study only for the ACT for 4 years. They both get you into college, but they are completely different tests. This is like the COMLEX & USMLE. M.D.'s would score poorly on the COMLEX if they were to take it.

SAT emphasizes english more, whereas ACT emphasizes math more. You are qualified for college nevertheless.
 
Actually the 19% represents a fifth of possible takers, that is a lot of students.

Secondly, only SOME DOs take Step I (and those DOs are usually the ones that want allopathic residencies, which are usually the ones that are the most competitive DO applicants). Even out of this self-selected group of the DO elite, EVERY MD taking the test had a higher pass average by almost 20%.

And in terms of Step 3 scores, have you guys looked at the sample size? There are 17,500 MD Step 3 takers and only 82 DO test takers. I dont know why so few DOs take Step 3 (and I am assuming we are having an elite subset effect here as well as for Step I), and I am no statistician, but I can assure you that 82 students taking a test versus 17,500 is going to give you anomalous comparative data. So while Step 3 might be the most clinical exam, the fact that only 82 DOs took it (out of how many graduates?) makes that statistic useless. So I guess only 82 DOs out of each class are "excellent patient care and proficient management of disease processes"

Im not coming here to flame, but I grow weary of the notion that some DOs propagate that DOs know MORE than MDs. If this were true, DOs would be able to match MDs on their Step I, Step II, and Step III scores (and even in the last case, there is something fishy about only 82 DOs taking that test, so I don't think its even fair to count that). All Im trying to show is that DOs DONT know more than MDs (they are not MDs + OMT), and that's all. I wouldn't even post this if people weren't dissing MDs.
 
OSUdoc08 said:
Imagine one group studying only for the SAT and the other group study only for the ACT for 4 years. They both get you into college, but they are completely different tests. This is like the COMLEX & USMLE. M.D.'s would score poorly on the COMLEX if they were to take it.

SAT emphasizes english more, whereas ACT emphasizes math more. You are qualified for college nevertheless.

That's a bad analogy. I took both the SAT and ACT and they are relatively similar in what they test-- generalized reading comprehension, math skills, etc. USMLE and COMPLEX are also relatively similar in what they test-- general medicine knowledge. If you removed the OMT section of COMPLEX and had MDs take it, MDs would do just fine (since it basically becomes some form of Step I)

Let's not obscure what we are all studying here-- MEDICINE. Sure we might differ on whether to use OMT or not, but we all still prescribe specific classes of antibiotics for specific bacteria, the vagus innervates the same organs, and the complement cascade is equally annoying to memorize regardless of whether you are an MD or DO. Ultimately, I like to think we are not studying for Step I or COMPLEX, but rather, we are studying to be doctors. Those tests are just a measure of how good our knowledge base is on our way to becoming doctors. So to be honest, I dont buy the differences.

In any case, my goal isn't to make this a pissing contest, but I did want to reply to the unfair characterization of DOs as being MDs + OMT, because that is simply not true based on the only unbiased statistical data we have.
 
OSUdoc08 said:
Nah,

you need precal for the ACT

SAT doesn't go to this level

Do you feel special coming to the osteopathic thread to prove that you are better than us?

The fact that you do proves you are not.

Needing precal for the ACT is your best argument? You can actually get by without it (I sure did), but now we're moving away from the point.

Apparently you have forgotten, the SAT and ACT are only comparative tests for people to get into undergrad. They aren't knowledge based tests like the APs or SAT IIs. If you get an 800 on World History, you have excellent high school knowledge of World History, etc. The USMLE and COMPLEX are knowledge based exams as well. If you score a 260 on your USMLE (I, II, or III) then you have excellent knowledge of medical principles. Same if you score a 99th on COMPLEX.

So your argument is moot insofar as we're not talking about tests simply for the sake of admissions (though Step I has that feature now, remember that these tests were ALL designed to test competency of knowledge).

In any case, I already stated my explicit reason for posting, having to do with the continued claim that DOs are somehow MDs + OMT, and the implicit insult that is constantly hurled at MDs with comments on this thread like "But lets be honest, DO's are just as much docs coming out of schools as MD's, in fact, we know more.". Of course, its never enough for a DO to be an equal to an MD, no, they have to go for the full-fledged ego trip. And that's why I posted.
 
Fantasy Sports said:
Needing precal for the ACT is your best argument? You can actually get by without it (I sure did), but now we're moving away from the point.

Apparently you have forgotten, the SAT and ACT are only comparative tests for people to get into undergrad. They aren't knowledge based tests like the APs or SAT IIs. If you get an 800 on World History, you have excellent high school knowledge of World History, etc. The USMLE and COMPLEX are knowledge based exams as well. If you score a 260 on your USMLE (I, II, or III) then you have excellent knowledge of medical principles. Same if you score a 99th on COMPLEX.

So your argument is moot insofar as we're not talking about tests simply for the sake of admissions (though Step I has that feature now, remember that these tests were ALL designed to test competency of knowledge).

In any case, I already stated my explicit reason for posting, having to do with the continued claim that DOs are somehow MDs + OMT, and the implicit insult that is constantly hurled at MDs with comments on this thread like "But lets be honest, DO's are just as much docs coming out of schools as MD's, in fact, we know more.". Of course, its never enough for a DO to be an equal to an MD, no, they have to go for the full-fledged ego trip. And that's why I posted.

:thumbdown:
 
OSUdoc08 said:

Thanks for your thorough and well-reasoned rebuttal. I spent 2 minutes of my life typing my rebuttal to YOUR post and all you can do is use an icon? So what does the thumbsdown mean, that you are giving up? Oh well, here's hoping that Shinken picks up the slack...
 
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