DO dermatology residencies vs. MD dermatology residencies?

[streampaw]

If someone goes to a DO school and wants to go into dermatology, what would be the difference between DO dermatology residencies and MD dermatology residencies? For example, I heard there are "AOA" dermatology residencies, and regular MD dermatology residencies. If someone who gets a DO does an AOA derm residency, will they make the same money as any regular MD Dermatologist?

I am a pre-med student by the way, just exploring my options. My end goal is dermatology, and it doesn't matter whether I will go to a DO school or an MD school, I just want to have the best chance of being a dermatologist.

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[whatever5]

Dermatology is competitive no matter how you slice it, there are way less AOA derm spots than ACGME derm spots from what I understand, and the chances for DOs matching ACGME derm is highly unlikely from what I hear.

And yes, your pay would be the same no matter your letters, but you don't care about that, right? You just want to fulfill your dreams of being dermatologist, I'm sure.

 

[pattr]

Dermatology is competitive no matter how you slice it, there are way less AOA derm spots than ACGME derm spots from what I understand, and the chances for DOs matching ACGME derm is highly unlikely from what I hear.

And yes, your pay would be the same no matter your letters, but you don't care about that, right? You just want to fulfill your dreams of being dermatologist, I'm sure.

Currently 28 AOA dermatology residency programs on the AOA website. 27 positions in the 2013 match.

115 ACGME dermatology residency programs with 407 positions in 2013. Of those 407 positions, 34 were filled by US MD (337 seniors and 50 not), 4 by US IMG, 4 by non-US IMG, 4 by DO, 8 went unfilled.

The ratio of applicant to spot in ACGME derm is probably around 2:1. For AOA derm it's probably about the same. (https://www.do-online.org/TheDO/?p=103521)

Derm is extremely competitive; you literally have to be the best of the best of the best. It will be difficult to match either route you take but if you're set on derm, probably best to go MD since you'll have greater access to all the ACGME programs.

 

[Dharma]

Sort of a shame that the best of the best end up in derm. Just saying...

 

[DrEnderW]

The ratio of applicant to spot in ACGME derm is probably around 2:1. For AOA derm it's more like 80:1. (https://www.do-online.org/TheDO/?p=103521)

That is blatant misinformation and incorrect manipulation of statistics.

Do you really think over 2,000 people are applying AOA derm? That's like comparing all the DOs applying to every specialty and comparing it to derm - 99% of those people aren't applying derm and don't want derm so it doesn't matter. I agree it's highly competitive though.

Neurosurg and optho are around 2:1 and ortho and ENT are even better odds. That is directly from the 2011 AOA match report.

 

[group_theory]

Dermatology is extremely competitive, for both MD and DO students.

The chances of a DO landing an ACGME (MD) Dermatology spot is extremely low - not impossible, but it's an uphill battle. In 2011-2012, there were 13 DO residents in ACGME Dermatology, out of 1180 ACGME Dermatology residents.
(source: JAMA. 2012;308(21):2264-2279, Appendix II, Table 2)

How one matches into ACGME dermatology and AOA dermatology is also slightly different. For ACGME dermatology, you need to a preliminary year first before you can do a dermatology residency. This preliminary year may be a transitional year residency, a preliminary medicine residency, or preliminary surgery residency. Then you start your dermatology residency (as a PGY2). Usually you apply for your dermatology residency (and preliminary year) simultaneously during your 4th year of medical school.

For AOA dermatology, you need to do an AOA intern year before you can advance into an AOA dermatology residency. The difference is that you can only apply to the AOA dermatology residency after medical school, when you're an AOA intern (or later). Hence why you don't see anyone matching into an AOA dermatology residency straight out of medical school (and why AOA dermatology is never listed in any DO school's match list).

There are other "non-tangibles" that factor into selecting DO residents for AOA derm residencies - personal or professional connections or references, etc. There are some AOA dermatology residencies where they have no funding (but still take residents), with some offering a salary of "0" during residency. Caveat emptor


Oh, and I'm moving this thread to Pre-Osteo.

 

[pattr]

That is blatant misinformation and incorrect manipulation of statistics.

Do you really think over 2,000 people are applying AOA derm? That's like comparing all the DOs applying to every specialty and comparing it to derm - 99% of those people aren't applying derm and don't want derm so it doesn't matter. I agree it's highly competitive though.

Neurosurg and optho are around 2:1 and ortho and ENT are even better odds. That is directly from the 2011 AOA match report.

Sorry i was just quoting the article without thinking but yeah I agree with you that the ratio of 1st choice applicants is definitely significantly lower, like you said.

The 2011 Osteopathic GME match report doesn't have any information specifically about derm, but you have to agree it's a lot more of a crapshoot with these fields in the AOA match. I feel like it's much more about audition rotations and connecting with the program leadership on the AOA side.

 

[NurWollen]

Dermatology is extremely competitive, for both MD and DO students.

The chances of a DO landing an ACGME (MD) Dermatology spot is extremely low - not impossible, but it's an uphill battle. In 2011-2012, there were 13 DO residents in ACGME Dermatology, out of 1180 ACGME Dermatology residents.
(source: JAMA. 2012;308(21):2264-2279, Appendix II, Table 2)

How one matches into ACGME dermatology and AOA dermatology is also slightly different. For ACGME dermatology, you need to a preliminary year first before you can do a dermatology residency. This preliminary year may be a transitional year residency, a preliminary medicine residency, or preliminary surgery residency. Then you start your dermatology residency (as a PGY2). Usually you apply for your dermatology residency (and preliminary year) simultaneously during your 4th year of medical school.

For AOA dermatology, you need to do an AOA intern year before you can advance into an AOA dermatology residency. The difference is that you can only apply to the AOA dermatology residency after medical school, when you're an AOA intern (or later). Hence why you don't see anyone matching into an AOA dermatology residency straight out of medical school (and why AOA dermatology is never listed in any DO school's match list).

There are other "non-tangibles" that factor into selecting DO residents for AOA derm residencies - personal or professional connections or references, etc. There are some AOA dermatology residencies where they have no funding (but still take residents), with some offering a salary of "0" during residency. Caveat emptor


Oh, and I'm moving this thread to Pre-Osteo.

You'd think a dermatology residency could hire some internship-trained residents and pay them 50k/year instead of hiring PAs or NPs as most practices would.

 

[Anicetus]

You'd think a dermatology residency could hire some internship-trained residents and pay them 50k/year instead of hiring PAs or NPs as most practices would.

I've heard a lot of people that visit dermatologists are obsessed with credentials. That's what my derm has told me. With that in mind, the PA degree seems to be a bit more well known than the DO degree in my area (southern California) so maybe that has something to do with it?

 

[NurWollen]

I've heard a lot of people that visit dermatologists are obsessed with credentials. That's what my derm has told me. With that in mind, the PA degree seems to be a bit more well known than the DO degree in my area (southern California) so maybe that has something to do with it?

I dunno, those DOs who do become dermatologists either by and ACGME residency or an AOA residency seem to do just fine for themselves.

I think California in General is credential-obsessed... you know, the attitude some people have that don't get into UC school for undergrad you might as well just give up, and Riverside, Santa Cruz, and Merced don't count because they aren't prestigious enough? And that if you have to (gasp!) stoop to a CSU school you might as well to into garbage collecting.

 

[pattr]

I dunno, those DOs who do become dermatologists either by and ACGME residency or an AOA residency seem to do just fine for themselves.

I think California in General is credential-obsessed... you know, the attitude some people have that don't get into UC school for undergrad you might as well just give up, and Riverside, Santa Cruz, and Merced don't count because they aren't prestigious enough? And that if you have to (gasp!) stoop to a CSU school you might as well to into garbage collecting.

That's socal for you!

 

[cliquesh]

I don't know if anyone has mentioned it, but AOA derm is considered an "option 3" residency, which means it requires a traditional rotating intership before you can apply. Therefore, you cannot match aoa derm as a fourth year; you apply as a PGY1.

Group therapy did, oh wells.

 

[NurWollen]

So in the "unfunded" residencies do residents just survive by moonlighting? Is that maybe why they only let PGY1s apply? So they only have licensed physicians as residents?

 

[Anicetus]

I dunno, those DOs who do become dermatologists either by and ACGME residency or an AOA residency seem to do just fine for themselves.

I think California in General is credential-obsessed... you know, the attitude some people have that don't get into UC school for undergrad you might as well just give up, and Riverside, Santa Cruz, and Merced don't count because they aren't prestigious enough? And that if you have to (gasp!) stoop to a CSU school you might as well to into garbage collecting.

There is quite a bit of truth to that.

Too many people accumulate here so there has to be judgemental ways to sift through the applicants to pretty much anything.

UCR and UCSC can be viable options for those that were rockstars there though. Merced on the other hand makes SGU look like Harvard medical school.

 

[Dreamstoo]

Currently 28 AOA dermatology residency programs on the AOA website. 27 positions in the 2013 match.

115 ACGME dermatology residency programs with 407 positions in 2013. Of those 407 positions, 34 were filled by US MD (337 seniors and 50 not), 4 by US IMG, 4 by non-US IMG, 4 by DO, 8 went unfilled.

The ratio of applicant to spot in ACGME derm is probably around 2:1. For AOA derm it's probably about the same. (https://www.do-online.org/TheDO/?p=103521)

Derm is extremely competitive; you literally have to be the best of the best of the best. It will be difficult to match either route you take but if you're set on derm, probably best to go MD since you'll have greater access to all the ACGME programs.

Yep my cousin who is a derm had a 4.0 at a top 30 MD school. Her husband is a MD surgeon from a low tier school. Both of them work great hours in their late 30s.

 

[as1212559]

AOA trained derms treat the whole integumentary system.

 

[Cmaj7th]

OP I'm curious as to why as a pre-med you want to do Derm? But I am a pre-med who wants to be an FP so perhaps I am the strange one here.

 

[Beargryllz]

OP I'm curious as to why as a pre-med you want to do Derm?

Dermatologist is like the best job in the world. That would be my guess.

 

[NeuroLAX]

Dermatologist is like the best job in the world. That would be my guess.

I find derm to be the most boring system so far. Different strokes for different folks.

 

[sazerac]

It would be funny if the AOA replaced half of their primary care residencies with derm residencies.

I bet a lot more students would choose DO schools then.

 

[NeuroLAX]

It would be funny if the AOA replaced half of their primary care residencies with derm residencies.

I bet a lot more students would choose DO schools then.

The AOA did add quite a few derm programs recently, along with dermatopathology.

 

[NontradCA]

Why would students choose a residency that won't pay them? Is there more to this? I'm going to guess that most people go into Derm for the money, so why would you live like a pauper during residency and then have crazy loans after when you could do gas/ ortho/optho/urology/rads instead?

 

[Jumpstartmy5HT]

Why would students choose a residency that won't pay them? Is there more to this? I'm going to guess that most people go into Derm for the money, so why would you live like a pauper during residency and then have crazy loans after when you could do gas/ ortho/optho/urology/rads instead?

I would guess that derm post-grad has the best lifestyle option. You never get crazy calls because there are no derm emergencies.

 

[NurWollen]

I would guess that derm post-grad has the best lifestyle option. You never get crazy calls because there are no derm emergencies.

Lol... 3:00AM call, "Doctor you better get down here, this patient's melanoma is going to metastasize any minute."

 

[darklabel]

I would guess that derm post-grad has the best lifestyle option. You never get crazy calls because there are no derm emergencies.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8YMgQc6I4U[/YOUTUBE]

 

[SpartanWolverine]

Just throwing in a comment one MD derm made to me -- he said he didn't care where people went to school or whether they were MD or DO... he just started looking for his residents based off of USMLEs being 2+ standard deviations above the mean.

 

[cabinbuilder]

OP I'm curious as to why as a pre-med you want to do Derm? But I am a pre-med who wants to be an FP so perhaps I am the strange one here.

Derm is just gross. I would be so bored. Skin cancer, eczema, and acne all day. With that said there is plenty of derm in FP, not a day goes by where I don't have some rash or infection to inspect.

 

[Jumpstartmy5HT]

Derm is just gross. I would be so bored. Skin cancer, eczema, and acne all day. With that said there is plenty of derm in FP, not a day goes by where I don't have some rash or infection to inspect.

What about all the Botox and Juvederm injections????

And to Cmaj7th, people go into medicine wanting to do different things for different reasons. It's great that you want to do family practice, but it's also great that other people want to do stuff like dermatology.

 

[streampaw]

OP I'm curious as to why as a pre-med you want to do Derm? But I am a pre-med who wants to be an FP so perhaps I am the strange one here.

I want to make a lot of money and not be stressed out all the time. Basically, the reasons that most people pick derm. No on call, plenty of time for family, non-stressful work environment, good pay.

 

[streampaw]

And I also want to help teens/adults with acne and skin problems and let them know of alternative ways to treat acne besides accutane/antibiotics, and also I want to discover a cure for seborrheic dermatitis because I have it and I hate it.

 

[as1212559]

inb4 people stick their nose up at someone admitting they like a specialty because it is lifestyle friendly. WE ALL MUST WANT TO SAVE THE WORLD.

 

[pattr]

inb4 people stick their nose up at someone admitting they like a specialty because it is lifestyle friendly. WE ALL MUST WANT TO SAVE THE WORLD.

different people want different things and have different goals in life... I think we are all mature enough to acknowledge that.

 

[madb0x]

Dermatology is extremely competitive, for both MD and DO students.

The chances of a DO landing an ACGME (MD) Dermatology spot is extremely low - not impossible, but it's an uphill battle. In 2011-2012, there were 13 DO residents in ACGME Dermatology, out of 1180 ACGME Dermatology residents.
(source: JAMA. 2012;308(21):2264-2279, Appendix II, Table 2)

How one matches into ACGME dermatology and AOA dermatology is also slightly different. For ACGME dermatology, you need to a preliminary year first before you can do a dermatology residency. This preliminary year may be a transitional year residency, a preliminary medicine residency, or preliminary surgery residency. Then you start your dermatology residency (as a PGY2). Usually you apply for your dermatology residency (and preliminary year) simultaneously during your 4th year of medical school.

For AOA dermatology, you need to do an AOA intern year before you can advance into an AOA dermatology residency. The difference is that you can only apply to the AOA dermatology residency after medical school, when you're an AOA intern (or later). Hence why you don't see anyone matching into an AOA dermatology residency straight out of medical school (and why AOA dermatology is never listed in any DO school's match list).

There are other "non-tangibles" that factor into selecting DO residents for AOA derm residencies - personal or professional connections or references, etc. There are some AOA dermatology residencies where they have no funding (but still take residents), with some offering a salary of "0" during residency. Caveat emptor


Oh, and I'm moving this thread to Pre-Osteo.

I know this post is from two years ago, but I have a quick question. I really know nothing of the future residency merger that I have read on other threads. But will that merger affect AOA derm residencies?? I saw on another thread someone saying half of AOA derm residencies will close. Just wanted to see your input. Thanks!

 

[cliquesh]

I know this post is from two years ago, but I have a quick question. I really know nothing of the future residency merger that I have read on other threads. But will that merger affect AOA derm residencies?? I saw on another thread someone saying half of AOA derm residencies will close. Just wanted to see your input. Thanks!

Go to http://opportunities.osteopathic.org. It has a list of all of the DO residencies. Click on derm. It should list 32 derm programs or so. Click on each program and see if they are applying for or have applied for acgme accreditation. If you love skin for some reason, another derm-like option is to do a dermatopathology fellowship from pathology. It's a competitive fellowship because derm and path residents can both apply for it.

 

[madb0x]

Go to http://opportunities.osteopathic.org. It has a list of all of the DO residencies. Click on derm. It should list 32 derm programs or so. Click on each program and see if they are applying for or have applied for acgme accreditation. If you love skin for some reason, another derm-like option is to do a dermatopathology fellowship from pathology. It's a competitive fellowship because derm and path residents can both apply for it.

Thank you!! This was super helpful

 

[TallPreMed]

YESSSS bringing the Streampaw threads from the grave.

Now I'm just waiting for Lalex to appear.