Do Ent?

[FutureVoxDoc]

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Hey everybody,

How hard would it be for a DO to get an allopathic residency in ENT? I'm interested in subspecializing in laryngology, and have heard that if you have do an osteopathic ENT residency, you won't be able to subspecialize. Is this true?

Thanks for your help!

 

[DrDre']

Do a search. although it may not be oto specific, there have been a million "Can a DO match x specialty". The response is always the same. It is possible but increases in difficulty with increasing competitiveness of field or location. For some reality orientation, check out ophth thread titled something like "warning to applicants". Multiple allo applicants citing disgustingly awesome scores and CVs unmatched in oph this last week. I think opth and oto are approximately similar in difficulty, for your purposes. Best of luck, oto is a very cool specialty.

 

[s42brown]

There are osteopathic ENT residencies.

 

[DrDre']

When I was considering applying to DO schools, I believe I researched and found only 2 ent spots in the country (I may be confusing this with plastics though...)

Someone who has been around academia will know better but I think you MIGHT have better luck matching into an allo subspecialty fellowship from a do residency than straight into an allo residency in a uber-competitive specialty. Some subs are not that competitive.

On the other hand, most of the DOs on this forum don't give any love to DO residencies so I would question what an allo residency director might think...

To the OP, check some websites of oto programs and look for DOs, may be email a few of them.

 

[nuclearrabbit77]

it's extremely difficult to get an ENT residency position as an allopathic, so i'd imagine that it'd be pretty tough to get in as an osteopathic as well. the applicants are ridiculously sicko.
AOA, 240+ boards, w/publications is commonplace.

 

[FutureVoxDoc]

Thanks for the insight, it's good to know that I've got a bumpy road ahead of me🙂

Is it possible to get an ENT residency w/o doing research? Or do all of the good programs require that you've at least had your name on some publication?

Thanks

 

[nuclearrabbit77]

it isn't required but it can help alot, and this applies to any competitive specialty.

according to a poll on otomatch.com

Results (total votes = 53):
I have done ENT research with 1 or more publications. 41.5%

I have done/doing ENT research, with no publications. 24.5%

I have done non ENT research in the past with 1 or more publications 20.8%

Research??? Uhhh none. 13.2%

so over 50% of the people have actively participated in ENT research, and over 60% have a publication.

 

[VentdependenT]

One of the guys in my class signed on for DO ENT this year in Michigan. Sound's like a very good program. Master bread and butter cases at the base hospital with swap out rotations at allo hospital for the radical head and neck surgical experiences. For the highly competitive residencies the DO route is a viable path in my book.

 

[FutureVoxDoc]

What about sub-specializing after residency? I had heard that if you go DO for residency, you can't get board-certified in a sub-speciality (since almost all fellowship programs are allopathic). Is this true?

Thanks for the responses, everyone!

 

[VentdependenT]

Good question. I would call the DO ENT programs you have interest in and ask. Unrelated to your previous question, if you read up on your ENT (ENT secrets, know your anatomy cold) and rotate at a osteopathic program then you can nail a spot there. Even if your board scores aren't in the 90th percentile. I suggest doing this, if at least only to compare the quality to that of an allo program.

Ventster

 

[Fah-Q]

I hope I don't offend anyone by asking this.
Why would a DO want to train in ENT, especially in an allopathic program? You would get 5 years of the allopathic version of medicine. There is no manipulation in allopathic ENT. Why throw away/abandon your osteopathic theories? Have you suddenly decided osteopathic medicine is bogus and now you want to be trained as an MD? Or are you wanting to be an ENT so badly that you would give up the opportunity to practice medicine the osteopathic way?
I guess you could apply my question to any situation where a DO wants to train in an allopathic residency. Why would you learn medicine one way in med school and then switch theories for post-grad training?
Again, I'm clueless on the subject so I hope I don't offend anyone.

 

[FutureVoxDoc]

No worries, no offense taken.

If there were osteopathic fellowships, there would be no question - I'd go DO ENT. I'm just worried, however, that if I were to go DO fpr residency, I wouldn't be able to become board-certified in laryngology (which, at this point at least, is what I want to do). It's not really a matter of abandoning the osteopathic principles - I think one could use the holistic approach whether they're an MD or a DO, it's simply a matter of certification.

Thanks for the post,
-Vox

 

[VentdependenT]

Originally posted by Fah-Q
I hope I don't offend anyone by asking this.
Why would a DO want to train in ENT, especially in an allopathic program? You would get 5 years of the allopathic version of medicine. There is no manipulation in allopathic ENT. Why throw away/abandon your osteopathic theories? Have you suddenly decided osteopathic medicine is bogus and now you want to be trained as an MD? Or are you wanting to be an ENT so badly that you would give up the opportunity to practice medicine the osteopathic way?
I guess you could apply my question to any situation where a DO wants to train in an allopathic residency. Why would you learn medicine one way in med school and then switch theories for post-grad training?
Again, I'm clueless on the subject so I hope I don't offend anyone.

Can o' worms being opened above. The majority of osteopaths don't feel obligated to ONLY persue OMM based family practice lives. There is nothing different between allo or osteo practice anymore except for the false premise that DO's are special and separate from allos, which the AOA (and brainwashed zelous students) inexorably perpeutates.

There is no "dumping of roots" (osteos take basic sci/clinical didactics commensurate to that of allo students) if someone wants to go into a surgical residency. The ultimate product of an osteopathic institution is a physician with a broad scope of knowledge in all the core fields of medicine who passes (hopefully) board exams encompassing these fields. Thus, following this train of thought, the osteopathic physician is fully capable of entering into a residency in ANY field of medicine. DO doesn't equal OMM/FP only...not in any way.

Nuff said.

 

[bigmuny]

I should leave this alone, Fah-Q in the but, however...Does it really matter why? I assume most people are looking for what they percieve to be the best educational and professional opportunity available to them. GME is federally funded, us and all our families pay for it, and if a DO should decide that they want to do an allopathic residency then it is their right to pursue that opportunity.

 

[neutropeniaboy]

There are a number of D.O.s out there who practice otolaryngology; however, many of them are not board certified by the American Board of Otolaryngology because they didn't do an ACGME regulated allopathic residency program. That is to say that the remainder are board certified by their Osteopathic counterpart.

I am not aware of any D.O.s in allopathic residency programs at this time, but obviously I haven't scrutinized every single program down to the individual resident.

There are D.O.s who do allopathic residencies; I don't think there are many of them, however.

ENT is a very competitive residency in general, and there are always more people applying than there are positions available. Most programs will take MD students and MD grads before IMGs and DOs. Some programs will ultimately prefer IMGs with "MD" over US students/grads with the "DO" degree, sadly.

If you want to pursue otolaryngology, then do it. But, you'll have to be very good before many programs will look beyond the "DO" label.

 

[bla_3x]

Does anyone have any input as to the quality of the DO ENT/FPS residencies out there???

 

[nuclearrabbit77]

Originally posted by neutropeniaboy
If you want to pursue otolaryngology, then do it. But, you'll have to be very good before many programs will look beyond the "DO" label.

You'll have to be sicko good, methinks. the medical students matching into otolaryngology are extremely competitive. matching into an allopathic residency will be tough. Around 2% of around 250 spots are given to IMG. that's only 5 in the country.....
http://www.ama-assn.org/vapp/freida/spcstsc/0,1238,280,00.html

and the allopathic students who do match are extremely competitve.

 

[bustbones26]

I suppose I agree that not all DO's want to be OMM FP's. Besides, OMM covers the whole body, there are osteopathic techniques for ENT, OMM is not all back cracking!!! Anybody that attends the 40 hour cranial osteopathy course offered by the cranial academy would be golden as a DO ENT. Any DO knows that if they want to be an ENT, and keep their osteopathic philosophies intact, there is many many techniques involved with ENT. So I would not disregard DO's as ENT's

Yes, ENT is damn competitive, and here is something that you all must know, even DO ENT residencies are not easy to get!!!

There are only 18 DO ENT residency programs out there. And most of these programs are at small osteopathic hospitals and therefore only have enough funding for one resident per year.

As far as fellowships go?? Well I don't know how that works, I'd check it out, but I do know a DO ENT that somehow managed to get a fellowship in head&Neck and plastic surgery (not sure if these were DO fellowships or not though) And believe you me, he makes a very very very very (did I emphasize very enough) nice living!!!!

Also keep in mind that if you do an osteopathic ENT residency, most of your training will be at a big teriarty care allopathic hospital anyways, its just that the little osteo hospital in town will be your who gives you your GME diploma.

 

[nuclearrabbit77]

The new match report is available on the SFMatch site under the program directory (password required) link. Numbers are significantly up...

Quick rundown:
Rank Lists: 359
Matched: 256
US Seniors: 241 (76%)
US Grads: 6 (43%)
IMGs: 9 (33%)

No unfilled spots

Avg USMLE matched : 237
Avg USMLE unmatched : 222
AOA matched: 35%

er.....tough indeed.

 

[nuclearrabbit77]

look at some of these posts of people who didn't match posted on otomatch.com

"I had 25 interview offers, went on 13 interviews at top programs, have an excellent record (254(99) step 1, AOA, all honors, slightly weaker research that the best applicants, tons of leadership extracurriculars), and on top of it all, I really do have a great personality and am great in interviews. I am a good, enthusiastic person and I know they see that. However, it seems that those of us who went to a lot of really good interviews (Hopkins, Iowa, etc), although we're good, we're not AS good as those who matched (I'm not from a top Medical School) and, therefore, couldn't compete with the top candidates. The other drawback is that the other 1/2 of the places I chose to interview with, which, while still great programs, were not the academic powerhouses, & after telling me that I had a fantastic application, would ask me where all I was interviewing; after reciting my list of interviews, they would look at me with a slightly sarcastic look as if to say..."why are you here? like you would come here..." --even though that's simply NOT the way I felt; I was simply looking for the best fit for me; I wasn't after name. I am afraid that they must have thought that I wouldn't chose their program as one of my top choices, and to possibly save face, ranked me lower. I, somehow, fell through the middle and didn't match at all. No one can figure it out. I never expected it and am fairly devastated, although I have faith that in the end, things will turn out the way they're supposed to."

and another:

"Tough luck LadyOTO.... Take it easy for the rest of the med school period and try to get a one year research fellowship in a great place that you really like. This way you will have a perfect profile, 'relax' for 1 year, meet big-name people, publish and present abstracts, have at least 1 month vacation to do interviews with no pressure and I am sure things will work out for you next year... Take the word of someone who had to do that for 2 years (with >260 on Steps, AOA, awards, scholarships, publications, etc...)
Courage "

This is not an easy field to get into.

 

[nuclearrabbit77]

well to represent a bit of optimism i have a positive quote:

"I can't explain it, but here's my story. Went to a top 25 med school, class rank ~ 50%, not AOA, Step 1 ~ 200, Step 2 ~ 215, honored most of my clinical rotations, tons of extracurriculars, great ENT research, 3 ENT LOR that couldn't have been better had I written them myself. Got 9 interviews at ALL types of schools (including Top 5 schools), matched at my #1 choice. Was told at interviews that my LOR got me my interviews and that my desire, personality, dedication, and my ability to demonstrate that my board scores weren't indicative of my intellect only served to impress them even further.

I'm a total anomaly as far as statistics are concerned. I shouldn't have matched according to the odds. But, to all of you who love ENT and don't have the "perfect application", don't let numbers psyche you out. The stories on this discussion site prove that. If your numbers aren't perfect or aren't even good, just take responsibility for them, don't make excuses. Don't let advice from your home school's administration dictate your actions (remember, they're only worried about their scramble statistics). Work hard, show your passion, take a risk. It may or may not pay off. But you'll never know unless you try. Even if you're 99% in everything you do and you're applying to family medicine, applying to residency and Match Day are all about risk. Nothing is guaranteed, but then again, you have nothing to lose.

Good luck to everyone, may your futures be rewarding and fulfilling."