Discussion in 'Osteopathic' started by scgirl, Jul 7, 2010.
Anyone know of any good DO friendly int med residency programs?
I think there are quite a few. VCU/MCV has a fair number every yr..GL
Hopkins Bayview also has a few.
Look into dually accredited programs. Very DO friendly. MSU/KCMS in Kalamazoo is a wonderful IM program (not that I'm biased or anything). Very DO friendly and dually accredited.
I take it you don't have any geographical preferences? I did my residency at Advocate Christ Medical Center in Oak Lawn, IL (suburb of Chicago). Also served as 4th year Chief Resident so I would say definitely DO-friendly. Medical College of Georgia in Augusta (did my fellowship there) is also DO-friendly, but I would say Christ is definitely a better place to train.
IM is generally DO-friendly across the board. only the elitest of elite programs wont interview DO's. But i'd say you could get into 75% of programs if you are a strong candiddate, and/or do an away rotation.
i had a DO-friend-had a 214 step 1, 239 step 2, strong LoR's and really strong clnical grades. She applied to 45 programs and got 38 interviews...she didn't apply to any community programs-only university based across the country...
USC has been up until this year, Loma Linda is also DO friendly.
214 isn't a particularly strong Step 1 score...in fact, it's below the national average as it stands right now.
What were some of these programs that offered her interviews?
True but it's not that far away. IM's average is about 222 and with a strong step II score (above average) and good grades it should be no problem to get into a decent program.
Can anyone comment on the Oregon programs? There are 4 of them. I rotated through most of those hospitals as a PA student in 98-99 but have been in the southeast the past 4 years. Feeling like I would like to go home someday....
Many are DO friendly. Best way to tell is just look up the program you are interested in and see if they have any DOs. Most programs have a list of residents online and you can see
Do any of these "DO friendly" residencies accept COMLEX, or do they require USMLE?
a good rule of thumb is, if you are going to apply to ACGME, you should take the ACGME test especially if you want to get into the best program you can. IM is generally more foregiving but still many programs just don't know what to do with a COMLEX score.
I think the "take the ACGME test" advice is for some of the upper-tier programs. Hopkins. MGH. Harvard. Many will accept COMLEX. See if they have admitted DOs into their program before. If they have more than one or two, chances are they take COMLEX. If they only have one in their entire program, likely not DO friendly (i.e. Denver Health).
ShyRem what type of COMLEX scores are generally required for the dually accredited IM programs such as yours?
I can give you information directly relating to my own experience, feedback received, and observations.
Board scores. Mine are nothing outstanding. Average. My level 2 was about 75-100 points higher than level 1 (yeah, level 1 wasn't great. About average though). But my application was a bit unique. And that's what got me here. They're looking for a fit. Much like med schools look for a fit.
I think the fact my level 2 scores were in early (I took them first week of August) helped a bunch. I can't believe how many people's scores went DOWN with level 2 after the re-leveling of scores by NBOME. And more than a few failed it. The fact mine was in early and went UP was a definite point in my favor, and commented on by more than half of my interviews.
My LORs were also quite good. I'm almost embarrassed by the comments in my MSPE. I did well in my clinicals. You need good LORs and MSPE comments. GOOD ONES, not the average generic crapola. They want personal comments and LORs.
Finally, I'm steady. I didn't honor much first two years, but I never failed a class or exam. Ever. And I have .. unique .. hobbies and interests. Feedback from my interviewers leads me to believe I've done things very very few med students do during med school. And before med school. I am definitely not what I appear to be when you meet me (so I hear - I think I'm pretty WYSIWYG.) And THAT is what they all commented on, what they're looking for. Uniqueness. Well-roundedness. Steady under pressure.
So in my experience (and I applied to quite a few dually accredited programs), it's not just the board scores. And in many cases it's absolutely NOT the board scores. It's everything else that gets you the interview. They want well-rounded people. Not folks who just live, eat, breathe medical stuff. They want passion for medicine, curiosity, initiative to learn more, see more, do more, get out of your comfort zone in many ways, do new things, be good at old things.
Now during the interview, they're looking to see if what was in your app was true. And they'll ask in interesting ways. I have seen some horrible interview manners. Including one applicant who flat out told the PD "look, I just don't feel important here. you ought to make me feel like I am the most important person you're going to meet today, and I'm just not feeling it. You really need to step up and start catering to me." I was mortified and appalled to be even loosely associated with such an applicant. Yes, they're really out there. Don't be one of them.
That's all my advice for you. Don't look at board scores unless you're looking for a high-falutent program like Harvard, MGH, Hopkins. etc. Apply where you are interested. Look at board pass rates, benefits, recreation, surrounding area, housing, schools if you have kids, etc. Do your homework. And apply where you think you'll be happy. You might be surprised where you end up.
Where is a good place to look up board pass rates?
I think many people here are overestimating the difficulty in getting an Internal Medicine residency as a DO. Here is some advice I gave in the past, based on my own experience applying in NY for Internal Medicine:
I consider ACGME residencies in Internal Medicine as 3 "types"...
Type 1: The upper-echelon university programs that have never accepted an osteopathic student in their program and likely won't anytime soon. These programs won't accept FMGs for the most part either unless they were on the level of a Nobel laureate in their home country. Examples I know of: internal medicine at Columbia-Presbyterian, Mount Sinai, NY Hospital-Cornell.
Type 2: The mid-tier university, university-affiliate, and community programs that accept some combination of MD, DO, and FMG in their programs (North Shore Manhasset, Long Island Jewish, Winthrop, NY Hospital-Queens).
Type 3: The FMG factories that no US MD student would even consider applying to, whose programs consist of mostly foreign students with the occasional random misguided DO. Basically, hospitals on the level of Nassau University Medical Center or the inner-city medicine programs in NY.
The dual-accredited programs in IM are Type 2 or 3, mostly in my opinion closer to Type 3. Dual accreditation, especially in IM, is usually just a clever ploy to entice American DO students to apply to an otherwise poor program that they otherwise would have no interest in.
As an osteopathic student, assuming you don't come across as a train wreck in your interview or fail any of the COMLEXes, you will have an honest shot at most Type 2 programs, due to the shrinking number of American MD students who want to pursue primary care. You should apply broadly, especially to programs with good reputations and their own fellowship programs (if you are interested in specialty training) and a reputation for supporting its graduates. I also advise taking the USMLE, as it can be an equalizer that might put you in consideration for programs that otherwise might not have considered you. Most of all, don't underestimate your chances. Good luck.
Take this information with a grain of salt, though. Board pass rate is NOT the only factor one should consider when applying for residency, especially Internal Medicine.
Wanna be Do what type of USMLE score should we aim for as a DO student who is interested in Allopathic IM at a university academic type of program (Mostly in the Midwest area, i.e: Detroit, Chicago, St louis)? My step 1 is in a month, and I am hoping to get above a 220...
My comlex wasn't too hot, just a little above average. I am just glad I passed it.
Depending on the program, I'd aim for a score of 220. If you are shooting for places like WashU or U Chicago you'd have to score significantly higher than that.
Obviously you want to get as much above the mean as possible, but I agree that a 220 puts you on fairly solid ground for most Internal Medicine programs.
I'm curious: How firm is the division between the programs you classify as Type 1 and the programs you classify as Type 2?
Would an osteopathic applicant with a 240+ USMLE score, publications, well-recieved audition rotation, strong rotation grades, etc have any sort of shot at any of the Type 1 programs? (Provided, of course, that the institutions even yet DO students rotate there.) How about a 260+? Or is there a "bright line" limit to where a DO is likely to match regardless of his/her qualifications?
I know UMDNJ-SOM students have managed to match into allo gas @ the Cleveland Clinic and Hopkins, but I also get the sense that allo gas might be generally more friendly to DOs than top-flight IM.
Put simply, there are some programs, in all types of residencies, where you could be absolutely brilliant in all aspects but will never be interviewed due to being a DO. These are programs where they won't even interview an American MD unless they are AOA with a USMLE score of 95+. It isn't just discrimination against DOs, and you shouldn't take it personally. These are programs that do not lack for stellar applicants from the MD world and do not need osteopathic applicants to fill their residencies.
I would still apply to top-tier programs with the stats you mentioned, though, because eventually someone could be the first DO to interview or even gain admission into an "elite" IM residency.
I think you are correct. Anesthesiology tends to be more open to osteopathic applicants.
You're still talking about IM programs? I think that's just a little bit of hyperbole. You're saying the bar for MD applicants to get an interview at some programs is 270 and AOA? LOL!
You're correct to point this out. I meant 2-digit score of 95, not 95th percentile (and I used to harp on people who interchanged the two, LOL). A 2-digit score of 95 is 230-ish. I corrected this in my original post.
Regarding AOA, this is what I know of. AOA status might not matter if you go to a stellar med school but for the rest it is a weed-out for the top medicine programs (in NY I'm referring to Mount Sinai and Columbia). Since you are an MD applicant feel free to comment if your experience suggests otherwise!
There are definitely IM programs where to get an interview you need ~240 and either AOA or grades that would be good enough. Even at top program you don't have to be AOA but you need the grades that would put you in the running for AOA. A lot of places don't do AOA until 4th year so programs won't even know if you were AOA.
Some of these programs also have >2000 applicants so they don't have to interview any DOs unless those students are really stellar candidates. Might as well apply though. I mean it's so cheap to add another program.
I know that "DO friendly" doesn't necessarily mean they take COMLEX (only) but I'm still not 100% convinced that I need to take the USMLE...
I'm looking at east coast/washington DC area and some places (like WHC and HUH) require USMLE but Georgetown accepts COMLEX.
Ok that makes sense. I think if you had a 260 you'd at least be considered for an interview at most programs MD or DO unless your grades were below average. That's close to the top 5% of all test takers and probably in the top 1% or higher of all DO test takers.
I've noticed that people who got into allopathic residencies with only a comlex score tend to score very highly on the comlex. So, if you score above 600, then you'd be competitive at least in terms of board scores. But let's say if you scored around or below the average, and you took the usmle that was about the average for that specialty, the allopathic pd's are not going to be interested in your comlex, and would still consider you based on your usmle scores.
So you may not 'need' to take the usmle for IM, but you may have to make up for it with very high comlex scores, which you may not need for either test if you took the usmle. Which seems more feasible really depends on who you ask, but I would incline towards the latter based on my experiences.
Just my $0.02
Im an avg DO student. Straight P's across the board with one honors. never failed anything. low 500/ high 400 COMLEX step I and II (so the average) did not take the USMLE. Applying to around 25-30 allopathic IM programs in NC, SC, FL, GA, TN, VA and D.C. preferentially hoping for one with a pulm/cc fellowship. Somewhat of a unique app, married, several kids during med school, lived apart from family, had to work near full time during school, etc. What are my chances of 10-12 interviews and are 10-12 enough to match?
Depends. Did you apply to places like hopkins and duke? chances are slim. Apply to mid-tier residencies? might. What about your LORs? What about your statement? What about.. what about... what about...
You know the drill. Try. You'll know soon enough if you reached too far if you don't get any interviews.
lol, no not duke. My list is like UF gains, UF jacksonville, USF, MUSC, East carolina U, VCU, Pitt county, MCG, Utenn chattanooga. Places like that. GOod Lors, pretty good story in my statement imo. The prestige of the IM program was far less important when I formulated my list than whether they took DOs and had a PCCM fellowship.
It's internal medicine, unless there is something seriously wrong with you, you will get a spot.
Even if you fail boards you can end up in IM, not at a top level place, but you can still get in somewhere that just needs a body to fill the position.
Plenty of spots open in the scramble.
People keep saying this as if it is an ok outcome, "it's ok theres lots of scramble spots". Im married with 3 kids and own a house. Finding out in may that I have a few weeks to sell my house get a approved for a new morgate in a place that I havent even looked for a new house in that could be anywhere in the country, that hopefully i can squeeze into a vacant spot at is nothing short of a monumental disaster that i would like to avoid at all costs. The 15 or so IM programs on my list in the SE seasboard are not harvard or hopkins but they are academic with fellowship so id assume they are looking for more than just a pulse but i dont know. Just want to ensure I get a favorable outcome here.
Did the programs you applied to have a history of taking DO students with just comlex scores? Have you had an opportunity to talk to any of the residents at the program? Even though SDN is a great place for advice, I think nothing beats getting information directly from the program..
I understand having a family makes it hard to just move on the fly, but I am sure it won't come to that, GL
Check those programs and see if they filled. If not, then much of your stress will be lifted.
Of the list you provided there are a few very good programs.
With only average Comlex scores and passes across the board a few of those places may be difficult to match into but I think the rest shouldn't be too bad. You will really know better when you start getting interviews. If you get interviews to basically everywhere, you know you are going to match somewhere. If you get 10 interviews, I'd be willing to bet you are going to match. If <10, maybe start worrying.
Thanks for all the responses. Hopefully I will get several interviews.
No different from what I had to do with my family and 4 kids. Found out where we were going and made arrangements. You listed 7 different states that you were applying to. I'm sure you can find a spot somewhere in those areas.
You may already know this but UF-Jacksonville's IM Program Director is a DO. Have you rotated there? Over all I've gotten the impression that UF is fairly "DO friendly" in regards to IM and even Anesthesia. Going there in a couple months for an IM Sub-I so this is just my thoughts after talking with classmates/residents.
USF has taken DO's in their IM program. Can be hard to rotate there though as they always seem to be filled.
I am in the same situation as IDontTakeCall.
I did take the Step 1 and Step 2 USMLE tests and scored a poor 195/80 and have not recieved my Step 2 scores yet.
I am applying to those florida schools also. Never failed anything. Good personality. Laid back.
I have visited the websites and some programs don't have their resident lists on there. Can I call and ask if they take DO students?
PS how hard is it to get a PCCM fellowship from a community program?
Sorry to bump this relatively old thread but I figured it'd be better than starting a new one. Can anyone comment on DO-friendly IM residencies in the Boston area?
How about the ones in California, more specifically southern California? Are any of them of DO friendly? Really hoping USC and UCI
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