Do highly ranked colleges really matter?

[Tisiphone]

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Howdy all! I'm a pre-med student and the prospect of applying to medical schools and getting into the very best programs is exceptionally daunting to me. I'm really competitive, and as much as I'd like to "play the game" as it were, I want to know from those who have made it through the process if it really does matter whether you go to a top ten med school in the grand scheme of things? Will it really make you happier or affect your salary in any significant way? It seems like we're going through a lot of effort and stress for something that may not end up being worth it in the end. Or am I just scared and hoping I'm not wasting my time? 🙁

 

[JoshUNCW]

Here, let me point out the search function for you. It will bring a wealth of knowledge to your fingertips and save you from annoying people by asking something that's been answered 1000 times on this forum.

Protip: It's in the top, between New Posts and Quick Links, a little bit below and to the left of where you can log in.

 

[Elpenor]

Honestly, people replying to threads telling people to use the search function is more annoying than people who don't use the search function

that said, OP is a troll.

 

[Poliscidoc]

Honestly, people replying to threads telling people to use the search function is more annoying than people who don't use the search function

that said, OP is a troll.

Your comment has been answered and used before. Geez use the search function.

OP- the short answer is yes the name does matter but only to a point

 

[Tisiphone]

Well that does answer my question. I did use the search function, but that tends only to addresses the 'does it matter for residency, etc.' to the most point. I thought my question was more geared towards the 'quality of life' aspect. Sorry it's so annoying : /

 

[Cytotoxic]

.

 

[flip26]

Howdy all! I'm a pre-med student and the prospect of applying to medical schools and getting into the very best programs is exceptionally daunting to me. I'm really competitive, and as much as I'd like to "play the game" as it were, I want to know from those who have made it through the process if it really does matter whether you go to a top ten med school in the grand scheme of things? Will it really make you happier or affect your salary in any significant way? It seems like we're going through a lot of effort and stress for something that may not end up being worth it in the end. Or am I just scared and hoping I'm not wasting my time? 🙁

OP: why does your thread title not match the post? Are you asking about the ranking of colleges, or med schools?

Will attending a top 10 med school "make you happy?" I don't know - will it make you happy? Kind of a subjective question...opinions on this are kind of meaningless.

Will attending a top 10 med school significantly affect compensation? Short answer is no...compensation in medicine is highly regulated these days, sure to get more so in the future.

Attending a top 10 school may open more, or at least different, doors for you, but are those opportunities the ones you care about anyway? Research and academic medicine, for instance?

 

[Narmerguy]

The general sentiment often shared on SDN is that highly ranked med schools are important for those pursuing academic medicine but not that important for those seeking private practice.

However, for academic medicine you actually get paid less so it's somewhat funny because the only path where the prestige of the school matters that much is the one that pays the least. Oh well, I still intend to do academic medicine myself.

 

[flip26]

The general sentiment often shared on SDN is that highly ranked med schools are important for those pursuing academic medicine but not that important for those seeking private practice.

However, for academic medicine you actually get paid less so it's somewhat funny because the only path where the prestige of the school matters that much is the one that pays the least. Oh well, I still intend to do academic medicine myself.

Plenty of people go into academic medicine from schools outside of the Top 30, and one of the reasons is the debt issue.

If in order to attend a research school for the reason of academic medicine one accumulates more debt than at, say, a state school, the debt can have the same chilling effect as it does for people who might otherwise choose a lower paying primary care job...

 

[armybound]

I don't think the school itself will make you happy. There are a lot of things that weigh on my mind about being in medical school.

1) Location. Be somewhere you enjoy. When you do get a few moments free, you want to be able to enjoy yourself, so live somewhere you like.
2) Cost. This may actually be the most important factor. I don't want to worry about being able to pay back a crapload of money when I'm done. The top schools are often extremely expensive
3) Competitveness within the class. Is it going to hurt me to be near the bottom of my class rank-wise since everyone in my class is going to be incredibly smart?
4) School reputation/education. Am I getting as good of an education at my lower-ranked school as I would be at a higher-ranked school? Am I going to be adequately prepared for the Step?

These are the things I think about.

 

[z31]

3) Competitveness within the class. Is it going to hurt me to be near the bottom of my class rank-wise since everyone in my class is going to be incredibly smart?

Good list armybound. However, my feeling (no stats to back this up) is that number 3) should be a pretty minor factor unless the difference in the rank of the schools being compared is enormous - enormous enough that I would worry first about number "4)", the difference in quality of education I'd be receiving. I'd guess that students are going to be equally smart within, say, the top 20-30 "highly ranked" schools. After all, you have to be academically strong to make it into any medical school. Add to that the intense competition and unpredictability of admissions to the top schools, and I would imagine that the geniuses get spread around. Any other thoughts on this?

If you mean 'competitiveness' more generally, then a better factor to consider might be whether the school ranks, whether it's P/F, etc.

 

[drizzt3117]

You're of course operating under the assumption that most people going to med school are smart...

Good list armybound. However, my feeling (no stats to back this up) is that number 3) should be a pretty minor factor unless the difference in the rank of the schools being compared is enormous - enormous enough that I would worry first about number "4)", the difference in quality of education I'd be receiving. I'd guess that students are going to be equally smart within, say, the top 20-30 "highly ranked" schools. After all, you have to be academically strong to make it into any medical school. Add to that the intense competition and unpredictability of admissions to the top schools, and I would imagine that the geniuses get spread around. Any other thoughts on this?

If you mean 'competitiveness' more generally, then a better factor to consider might be whether the school ranks, whether it's P/F, etc.

 

[BrainBuff]

And yes, highly ranked colleges really matter -

Look at the first year class of any of the top ranked medical schools and you are going to see a predominance of students coming from similarly top ranked undergrad colleges -

 

[drizzt3117]

And yes, highly ranked colleges really matter -

Look at the first year class of any of the top ranked medical schools and you are going to see a predominance of students coming from similarly top ranked undergrad colleges -

That's not what this post is about (even tho it prolly should be)

 

[RunningDiva]

And yes, highly ranked colleges really matter -

Look at the first year class of any of the top ranked medical schools and you are going to see a predominance of students coming from similarly top ranked undergrad colleges -

Or those top tanked undergrad colleges tend to have larger numbers of pre-meds applying and thus matriculating. These schools tend to have structured pre-med courses/majors, pre-med organizations, and more lab space for research experience (--> pubs). This to me is the benefit of going to these higher ranked undergrad schools. The path might be easier because its laid out for you as tons of other people have done it.

Also, we need to remember that there is self-selection. Maybe some people don't want a top-ranked med schools. If you go to a top-ranked undergrad, maybe its more salient in your mind to go to a top-ranked med school.

Does it matter tons, eh. It doesn't not matter. Ad coms take under consideration where you went. Go where you are happy because you are more likely to succeed where you are content. Maybe that's Stanford/MIT/etc, or maybe its your state school.

 

[alibai3ah]

Well that does answer my question. I did use the search function, but that tends only to addresses the 'does it matter for residency, etc.' to the most point. I thought my question was more geared towards the 'quality of life' aspect. Sorry it's so annoying : /

I'm not 100% certain what you mean by that.

But I'll give you my input. Yes it does matter to an extent but going to a lower-ranked school won't kill your chances as long as you get a good MCAT score (the equalizer). I did notice a difference in the caliber of undergrads in students interviewing at higher ranked schools versus the lower-ranked. But again I didn't know the specifics so I can't generalize.

If you are talking about the job world (not medical school), then I think it matters a lot (especially your first job). Stanford will give you a big name and will help you land a job much more easily than Cal State Fullerton. But at the same time if it is like UCLA vs UC Davis vs UCSD, I don't think it will be a big deal then and it would depend more on your experiences in your respective undergrads.

 

[Narmerguy]

Plenty of people go into academic medicine from schools outside of the Top 30, and one of the reasons is the debt issue.

If in order to attend a research school for the reason of academic medicine one accumulates more debt than at, say, a state school, the debt can have the same chilling effect as it does for people who might otherwise choose a lower paying primary care job...

Clearly. That's not what the OP was asking. I was commenting on whether there is some benefit to be received from attending one of the highly ranked schools. It's commonly accepted that launching a career in academic medicine is helped by going to the higher ranked schools.

 

[Xinlitik]

The general sentiment often shared on SDN is that highly ranked med schools are important for those pursuing academic medicine but not that important for those seeking private practice.

However, for academic medicine you actually get paid less so it's somewhat funny because the only path where the prestige of the school matters that much is the one that pays the least. Oh well, I still intend to do academic medicine myself.

By academic medicine, do you mean becoming a professor/clinician at a university with a hospital?

 

[NickNaylor]

I think that anyone who doesn't believe that there are clear advantages to going to a top school are misguided. I say this as someone not going to a top school, but my girlfriend does. She simply has so many more opportunities to get involved in incredible things. Granted, you still have to work hard at a top institution and to get access to these kinds of things, but there are more ways for you to get involved with truly unique experiences.

 

[mspeedwagon]

I'm so confused. Half the posters seems to be talking about going to a top undergrad vs not and the others seem to talking about going to a top med school vs not (the OPs question seems to be about the latter). And some, like below, I'm not sure if this is about undergrad or med school?

Going to a top undergrad is helpful (though there is a lot of self-selection... average MCAT of an applying student out of my Ivy undergrad was a 33... not surprisingly, over 90% were admitted to med school). That said, it doesn't really that much of a difference whether or not you go to a top undergrad. A lot of these students would have done well at their state school as well.

For medical schools it doesn't really matter much whether or not it's a top tier medical school.

I think that anyone who doesn't believe that there are clear advantages to going to a top school are misguided. I say this as someone not going to a top school, but my girlfriend does. She simply has so many more opportunities to get involved in incredible things. Granted, you still have to work hard at a top institution and to get access to these kinds of things, but there are more ways for you to get involved with truly unique experiences.

 

[drizzt3117]

Thanks for the definitive post.

I guess there is nothing more anyone can add after that statement.

sure there is, since it's not true...

 

[Tisiphone]

Since there seems to be some confusion, I'll clarify my question. I've browsed enough to grasp that where you graduate for your undergrad has some significance towards whether or not you get into a top tier medical school, I understand that. My question is more geared towards whether or not a top tier medical school matters in the long run in terms of practicing medicine. In terms of lifestyle specifically, will it necessarily indicate a much larger pay, more time off, etc.?

I understand that going to a better medical school = better opportunities towards experiencing more things clinically, better networking, yadda, and I can understand how going to a top tier medical school puts you at a more advantageous position for very competitive residencies, but my question is does it matter much beyond that?

 

[armybound]

No, it doesn't matter beyond that.

 

[mspeedwagon]

Can you provide evidence of a case where it is not true?

I've worked at a ton of Americas Top Hospitals and have seen physicians side-by-side from different tiers of medical schools.

When I was doing research at in the cancer division at Stanford (arguable one of the top programs), there were a ton of medical schools represented by their physicians. My boss for example, http://www.lpch.org/findADoctor/search/doc.pl?doc=1947&resultSet=1947, went to the university of Puerto Rico Medical School. She's the current national head of the largest pediatric sarcoma consortium in the US.
The other people in the department went to: PCOM, Stanford, University of Oregon, Albany Medical College etc.

I worked at the Harvard hospitals (Dana-Farber, Brigham, Mass General etc.) and again, physicians from every tier of medical school were present (including FMG). For example, this person: http://children.photobooks.com/directory/profile.asp?dbase=main&setsize=5&last=perez&pict_id=9904390, who is recognized as one of the top pathologist in the country in diagnosing rare tumors (and is a FMG). I only worked in departments that did academic and clinical research.

The only people that seem to care about tier of school or pre-meds and med students... in the actual hospital setting, no one has time to care where you went to medical school. It's not much of a topic of discussion.

When is the last time you were in a hospital and you heard,"Code Blue, Code Blue... basement by cafeteria... we only want physicians who graduated from Stanford, Harvard and a top tier school responding... if you are a DO or went to a school like that medical school in New Mexico, please do not respond... Code Blue. Thank you." Chances are NEVER.

I should add that neither lifestyle nor compensation is affected by where the physician went to medical school (in response to the OP).

sure there is, since it's not true...

 

[mdeast]

Since there seems to be some confusion, I'll clarify my question. I've browsed enough to grasp that where you graduate for your undergrad has some significance towards whether or not you get into a top tier medical school, I understand that. My question is more geared towards whether or not a top tier medical school matters in the long run in terms of practicing medicine. In terms of lifestyle specifically, will it necessarily indicate a much larger pay, more time off, etc.?

I understand that going to a better medical school = better opportunities towards experiencing more things clinically, better networking, yadda, and I can understand how going to a top tier medical school puts you at a more advantageous position for very competitive residencies, but my question is does it matter much beyond that?

Not a difference in pay... no. In fact, many top tier hospitals pay physicians less than lower tier hospitals...they can draw in new faculty by their name without having to rely on financial incentives.

Going to a top medical school may mean more flexibility in choosing a specialty...matching in a geographical area you prefer...getting into the programs that are important to you. It won't affect your pay or the end reality that you'll be a physician no matter what.

 

[randombetch]

Can you provide evidence of a case where it is not true?

I've worked at a ton of Americas Top Hospitals and have seen physicians side-by-side from different tiers of medical schools.

When I was doing research at in the cancer division at Stanford (arguable one of the top programs), there were a ton of medical schools represented by their physicians. My boss for example, http://www.lpch.org/findADoctor/search/doc.pl?doc=1947&resultSet=1947, went to the university of Puerto Rico Medical School. She's the current national head of the largest pediatric sarcoma consortium in the US.
The other people in the department went to: PCOM, Stanford, University of Oregon, Albany Medical College etc.

I worked at the Harvard hospitals (Dana-Farber, Brigham, Mass General etc.) and again, physicians from every tier of medical school were present (including FMG). For example, this person: http://children.photobooks.com/directory/profile.asp?dbase=main&setsize=5&last=perez&pict_id=9904390, who is recognized as one of the top pathologist in the country in diagnosing rare tumors (and is a FMG). I only worked in departments that did academic and clinical research.

The only people that seem to care about tier of school or pre-meds and med students... in the actual hospital setting, no one has time to care where you went to medical school. It's not much of a topic of discussion.

When is the last time you were in a hospital and you heard,"Code Blue, Code Blue... basement by cafeteria... we only want physicians who graduated from Stanford, Harvard and a top tier school responding... if you are a DO or went to a school like that medical school in New Mexico, please do not respond... Code Blue. Thank you." Chances are NEVER.

I should add that neither lifestyle nor compensation is affected by where the physician went to medical school (in response to the OP).

.. And this somehow is supposed to prove that medical school admissions don't factor in the reputation of your undergrad?

 

[mspeedwagon]

I agree with this poster... it may it may not. But so will a lot of other factors (how you do on the boards, how you interview, how much competition there is for that seat, where you are geographically etc.).

Going to a top medical school may mean more flexibility in choosing a specialty...matching in a geographical area you prefer...getting into the programs that are important to you. It won't affect your pay or the end reality that you'll be a physician no matter what.

 

[mspeedwagon]

No, this post had nothing to do with undergrad institutions. It was an answer to does where you go to medical school matter for future career as a doctor.

.. And this somehow is supposed to prove that medical school admissions don't factor in the reputation of your undergrad?

 

[drizzt3117]

NRMP says it's not true in Charting Outcomes, where they clearly state that applicants not from NIH top 40 programs don't match as well in competitive residencies. We've been over this ad nauseum.

Look at the list of residents from any top program in a competitive specialty (or even not the most competitive specialties) and you'll see 2/3 or more of the people from top 25 programs. They represent 20% of allo students but 67% of residency spots in top programs...

Can you provide evidence of a case where it is not true?

I've worked at a ton of Americas Top Hospitals and have seen physicians side-by-side from different tiers of medical schools.

When I was doing research at in the cancer division at Stanford (arguable one of the top programs), there were a ton of medical schools represented by their physicians. My boss for example, http://www.lpch.org/findADoctor/search/doc.pl?doc=1947&resultSet=1947, went to the university of Puerto Rico Medical School. She's the current national head of the largest pediatric sarcoma consortium in the US.
The other people in the department went to: PCOM, Stanford, University of Oregon, Albany Medical College etc.

I worked at the Harvard hospitals (Dana-Farber, Brigham, Mass General etc.) and again, physicians from every tier of medical school were present (including FMG). For example, this person: http://children.photobooks.com/directory/profile.asp?dbase=main&setsize=5&last=perez&pict_id=9904390, who is recognized as one of the top pathologist in the country in diagnosing rare tumors (and is a FMG). I only worked in departments that did academic and clinical research.

The only people that seem to care about tier of school or pre-meds and med students... in the actual hospital setting, no one has time to care where you went to medical school. It's not much of a topic of discussion.

When is the last time you were in a hospital and you heard,"Code Blue, Code Blue... basement by cafeteria... we only want physicians who graduated from Stanford, Harvard and a top tier school responding... if you are a DO or went to a school like that medical school in New Mexico, please do not respond... Code Blue. Thank you." Chances are NEVER.

I should add that neither lifestyle nor compensation is affected by where the physician went to medical school (in response to the OP).

 

[DrArete]

.

 

[mspeedwagon]

I don't think I disagree with you. I think I was arguing a different point. The problem is we don't know how much of this is self-selection (higher tier school = higher board score). Similar to the MCAT where my undergrad where the avg is 33 and every top school has a relatively large number of folks from my undergrad.

Going to a top medical school probably indicates a stronger chance of doing well on boards... stronger boards mean better residency match etc.

I'll conclude saying this: yes, it might give you an edge when it comes to matching for a competitive residency, but in the end where there is a will there is a way. Even in the most competitive residencies there are people that do match from outside the top 40, (those from their institution overall don't match as well). Which isn't too surprising.

NRMP says it's not true in Charting Outcomes, where they clearly state that applicants not from NIH top 40 programs don't match as well in competitive residencies. We've been over this ad nauseum.

Look at the list of residents from any top program in a competitive specialty (or even not the most competitive specialties) and you'll see 2/3 or more of the people from top 25 programs. They represent 20% of allo students but 67% of residency spots in top programs...

 

[NickNaylor]

Johns Hopkins is in Baltimore.

Therefore, going to a highly ranked school will make you miserable.

FWIW, in my opinion, unless you are a gunner douche, you are going to be happiest if you pick a school based primarily on your lowest cost and preferred location.

For some people its important to be closer to family, for others its best to be near the mountains, for others the ocean, etc.

I definitely don't want to meet that guy in the bottom picture.

 

[quiltlady]

Go to your local large group practice of any specialty. Look up where those physicians went to medical school. Probably they attended schools from all over, of different "ranks." Their salary and working conditions, vacations and benefits are not based on which med school they attended or where they did their residencies. Do their patients ask or care where the physician was educated ? Probably not. You can get an excellent education at your state med school, you can match into a great residency from that school. Prestige doesn't pay your mortgage.

 

[Perth Domer]

I'd say going to a higher ranked undergrad you get more credit for your GPA, but you'd likely have a higher GPA at a lower ranked school so it evens out. It may help in the transition to med school because you'll be used to competing against other high achievers. I'd say if you think you can hit a high GPA at the top tier go for it. Just keep in mind you may struggle to reach a 3.3 (and I know 36 ACT valedictorians who have had problems so don't think you're sure to dominate)

 

[drizzt3117]

I don't think I disagree with you. I think I was arguing a different point. The problem is we don't know how much of this is self-selection (higher tier school = higher board score). Similar to the MCAT where my undergrad where the avg is 33 and every top school has a relatively large number of folks from my undergrad.

Going to a top medical school probably indicates a stronger chance of doing well on boards... stronger boards mean better residency match etc.

I'll conclude saying this: yes, it might give you an edge when it comes to matching for a competitive residency, but in the end where there is a will there is a way. Even in the most competitive residencies there are people that do match from outside the top 40, (those from their institution overall don't match as well). Which isn't too surprising.

That's not the same thing as saying where you go to med school doesn't matter. Also, the highest ranked med schools do not necessarily do well on boards. For example, HMS's board averages the last few years were about the same as USC and UF (low/mid 230s). Which school do you think matches better?

 

[jla314]

That's not the same thing as saying where you go to med school doesn't matter. Also, the highest ranked med schools do not necessarily do well on boards. For example, HMS's board averages the last few years were about the same as USC and UF (low/mid 230s). Which school do you think matches better?

where did you find HMS's average step 1? i thought they kept it super secret

 

[mspeedwagon]

Let me step back. I was tackling different thoughts and wasn't clear.

If you have the option to go to Harvard Medical School, then by all means go. However, the impact on your lifestyle and salary for most people will not be drastically different.

Yes, if you want to be a Beverly Hills plastic surgeon, you have to go to a top medical school and do well, and you will make more than a primary care physician in California. I agree with this.

For a large majority of specialities though (internal medicine, pediatrics, geriatrics, emergency medicine, etc.) the salary and lifestyle won't be that different no matter where you go to medical school.

The above is NOT true for undergraduate schools. For top undergraduate institutions, their graduates do better in job placement and make more money that their peers in many different fields of work (there are of course exceptions, but I'm working with averages here).

I think we agree.

That's not the same thing as saying where you go to med school doesn't matter. Also, the highest ranked med schools do not necessarily do well on boards. For example, HMS's board averages the last few years were about the same as USC and UF (low/mid 230s). Which school do you think matches better?

 

[alibai3ah]

I'm so confused. Half the posters seems to be talking about going to a top undergrad vs not and the others seem to talking about going to a top med school vs not (the OPs question seems to be about the latter). And some, like below, I'm not sure if this is about undergrad or med school?

.

B/c the OP's subject line for the post conflicts with what he says in the post itself. I think that's what confused some people (including me).

 

[drizzt3117]

where did you find HMS's average step 1? i thought they kept it super secret

I know a few people there, and some hms student posted about it in a thread a few weeks ago and their info was the same as mine. They're def good but not Vandy/Mayo level.

 

[FlowRate]

Howdy all! I'm a pre-med student and the prospect of applying to medical schools and getting into the very best programs is exceptionally daunting to me. I'm really competitive, and as much as I'd like to "play the game" as it were, I want to know from those who have made it through the process if it really does matter whether you go to a top ten med school in the grand scheme of things? Will it really make you happier or affect your salary in any significant way? It seems like we're going through a lot of effort and stress for something that may not end up being worth it in the end. Or am I just scared and hoping I'm not wasting my time? 🙁

I believe the benefits are often more qualitative than quantitative. i.e. "better" residency in terms of whichever one you wanted or "better" school in terms of the extra resources and opportunities that come with a well established school.

 

[Dr McSexy]

Look at the list of residents from any top program in a competitive specialty (or even not the most competitive specialties) and you'll see 2/3 or more of the people from top 25 programs. They represent 20% of allo students but 67% of residency spots in top programs...

And yes, highly ranked colleges really matter -

Look at the first year class of any of the top ranked medical schools and you are going to see a predominance of students coming from similarly top ranked undergrad colleges -

While I'm ignoring what the OP is actually asking, I was going to address this, although it seems like this has already been rehased multiple multiple times.

I don't know about anyone else, but I've always felt two things.

1.) Those who get into top undergrads are in general (generalizations here, always exceptions to the rule) do well in school and are good standardized test takers (ACT and SAT) and be very involved (ECs). Those people in those top undergrads in general will translate over to doing well in college, taking another standardized test (MCAT), and being very involved and get into a top med school. Once again, this will translate over where they'll take yet another test (Step 1) and score well in classes, be very involved and get into a top residency.

My point with the above is that this process is pretty much independent from the actual school itself. What will always come up is that if you are on the edge, does the top school push you over to get to the next step? And maybe it will. But I'm hesitant to think that this type of scenario is very common and that other factors don't come into play before school attendance comes into play.

2.) Some people want to go to the top undergrad, the top medical school, the top residency for the prestige factor (obviously not everyone and not the majority I think) or because they think it gives them some kind of leg up on the rest of the medical community. I would say many just don't care. If your life goals are just to be a doctor with a practice and treat normal patients, I would say where you are trained isn't going to that big of an impact. If you want to purse academic medicine, treat the rock stars, pro athletes, world leaders, where you train will probably have a bigger impact on what you are able to do.


Ultimately though, I think more of anything comes down to individuals. And frankly, those who go to top programs are in general more ambitious than us state schoolers.

 

[Narmerguy]

By academic medicine, do you mean becoming a professor/clinician at a university with a hospital?

Yep, mostly. Could involve being a researcher at academic hospitals as well.

 

[SirGecko]

I definitely don't want to meet that guy in the bottom picture.

Don't worry, Omar might be a ruthless guy but if you aren't in the game he wouldn't harm you.

The Wire = best show ever.

 

[jbz24]

While I'm ignoring what the OP is actually asking, I was going to address this, although it seems like this has already been rehased multiple multiple times.

I don't know about anyone else, but I've always felt two things.

1.) Those who get into top undergrads are in general (generalizations here, always exceptions to the rule) do well in school and are good standardized test takers (ACT and SAT) and be very involved (ECs). Those people in those top undergrads in general will translate over to doing well in college, taking another standardized test (MCAT), and being very involved and get into a top med school. Once again, this will translate over where they'll take yet another test (Step 1) and score well in classes, be very involved and get into a top residency.

My point with the above is that this process is pretty much independent from the actual school itself. What will always come up is that if you are on the edge, does the top school push you over to get to the next step? And maybe it will. But I'm hesitant to think that this type of scenario is very common and that other factors don't come into play before school attendance comes into play.

2.) Some people want to go to the top undergrad, the top medical school, the top residency for the prestige factor (obviously not everyone and not the majority I think) or because they think it gives them some kind of leg up on the rest of the medical community. I would say many just don't care. If your life goals are just to be a doctor with a practice and treat normal patients, I would say where you are trained isn't going to that big of an impact. If you want to purse academic medicine, treat the rock stars, pro athletes, world leaders, where you train will probably have a bigger impact on what you are able to do.


Ultimately though, I think more of anything comes down to individuals. And frankly, those who go to top programs are in general more ambitious than us state schoolers.

As for point 1, although this may be true, it does not explain why for the most part, the entire class at certain top medical schools match well. As pointed out earlier, the average at Harvard is in the mid 230s. This means that half of the class does worse. Also, the same goes for grades. You think everyone at Harvard honors their rotations? The fact of the matter is, you'll have a large subset of people with sub-230 board scores and only passes on rotations. Sure they may be involved in ECs and do good research, but these cannot overcome scores and grades. Yet, they still match well. So while we can't directly attribute a school's name helping, we can certainly assume it helps.

Agree with point 2.

 

[alibai3ah]

As for point 1, although this may be true, it does not explain why for the most part, the entire class at certain top medical schools match well. As pointed out earlier, the average at Harvard is in the mid 230s. This means that half of the class does worse. Also, the same goes for grades. You think everyone at Harvard honors their rotations? The fact of the matter is, you'll have a large subset of people with sub-230 board scores and only passes on rotations. Sure they may be involved in ECs and do good research, but these cannot overcome scores and grades. Yet, they still match well. So while we can't directly attribute a school's name helping, we can certainly assume it helps.

Agree with point 2.

I read somewhere on here that HMS gives out 50% honors (post clinical). As oppose to other schools where it is 15% or so.

 

[jla314]

I read somewhere on here that HMS gives out 50% honors (post clinical). As oppose to other schools where it is 15% or so.

I think this might be thrown around because Harvard calls the top two clinical grades "high honors" and "honors," rather than "honors" and "high pass." Pretty misleading... I wonder how many people get the top two clinical grades at other schools, though?

 

[Dr McSexy]

As for point 1, although this may be true, it does not explain why for the most part, the entire class at certain top medical schools match well. As pointed out earlier, the average at Harvard is in the mid 230s. This means that half of the class does worse. Also, the same goes for grades. You think everyone at Harvard honors their rotations? The fact of the matter is, you'll have a large subset of people with sub-230 board scores and only passes on rotations. Sure they may be involved in ECs and do good research, but these cannot overcome scores and grades. Yet, they still match well.

Maybe. We don't have clear cut statistics of this (mean, median, etc). We don't know if half are below and half are above 230 or if they are just all clustered right at 230. And there's probably always going to be that story of THAT one person who has the sub-standard scores, average grades and somehow lands that awesome residency.

In that scenario, can school name be attributed? Probably. But again, I'll attest that these types of scenarios are the exceptions to the rule. I don't think they are as commonplace as SDN makes them out to be.

But again who knows?

So while we can't directly attribute a school's name helping, we can certainly assume it helps.

Which is why this topic always comes up in discussion and always has various opinions. The only evidence anyone has is anecdotal.

IF people out there have vested beliefs in that their school name helped them get where they are, more power to them. I'm more of the type of person who would rather attribute my success to me as an individual and not the institution on my degree.

 

[drizzt3117]

Idk. All I can say is that in my conversations with PD from top programs that my impressions were that the school was a pretty big factor, NRMP states that it makes a difference on charting outcomes, the previously described match list situation, and the lists of top residencies and the analysis I did earlier, that it's pretty significant <shrug>

 

[Dr McSexy]

NRMP says it's not true in Charting Outcomes, where they clearly state that applicants not from NIH top 40 programs don't match as well in competitive residencies. We've been over this ad nauseum.

Look at the list of residents from any top program in a competitive specialty (or even not the most competitive specialties) and you'll see 2/3 or more of the people from top 25 programs. They represent 20% of allo students but 67% of residency spots in top programs...

Idk. All I can say is that in my conversations with PD from top programs that my impressions were that the school was a pretty big factor, NRMP states that it makes a difference on charting outcomes, the previously described match list situation, and the lists of top residencies and the analysis I did earlier, that it's pretty significant <shrug>

Eh. Maybe. Charting outcomes show that a large percentage of competitive specialties ARE filled by those from the top-40 in NIH funding schools (but really there's only 132 US MD schools. Top 40 is a pretty huge percentage of that population.).

BUT it also shows that the large percentage of competitive specialties are filled by those who have higher Step 1 and Step 2, are AOA members, ranked more programs, etc. etc. You get the picture. Goes in stride with my first point.

 

[drizzt3117]

Eh. Maybe. Charting outcomes show that a large percentage of competitive specialties ARE filled by those from the top-40 in NIH funding schools (but really there's only 132 US MD schools. Top 40 is a pretty huge percentage of that population.).

BUT it also shows that the large percentage of competitive specialties are filled by those who have higher Step 1 and Step 2, are AOA members, ranked more programs, etc. etc. You get the picture. Goes in stride with my first point.

It states that you're more likely to match into one of the most competitive specialties from a NIH top 40 school, more precisely.