Do I have a realistic chance at top/good private universities with ZERO research experience?

[coconutts]

Hi all; I am currently a second-year in college (large, mid/low-tier public university). I live in California. I am a philosophy major, and I have decided to attend Middlebury Language Programs this summer to strengthen my Russian before taking my year abroad in Moscow. With this, I have cut out a potential summer of research; I had it lined up to potentially do cancer research at CU Cancer Center, but I was not all that excited about it as I am to further my Russian studies through Middlebury's language programs. I am doing most of the pre-medical classes as electives, but they are not in my field of study. With this educational path (Middlebury this summer and some shadowing, abroad next year, MCAT prep and volunteering following summer) I do not really have any room for substantial research, nor am I particularly drawn to complete any scientific research at this time.

I know that research is not the most important thing, but with that being said, do I have a chance at good medical schools with NO research whatsoever? The extent of my scientific research would just be through the laboratories in my pre-med classes. I complete research papers for philosophy, but they are never hypothesis-based.

Some schools I have in mind are Vanderbilt, UCSD, Perelman, Yale and Duke. I know these are probably long-shots but if anyone has an idea if it is a possibility with a stellar GPA and MCAT, but no research, please let me know! I have not started the very difficult classes yet, but I can confidently say I will maintain a 3.9+ GPA, with the MCAT I have no clue but I am typically a strong test taker so I have high hopes for myself. I am also applying to Icahn's early assurance program which seems wonderful, but of course, I cannot bank on that as it also seems highly competitive and my high school grades went to the gutter (personal trauma occurred at this time).

I also do not have any clinical volunteering. I worked as an orderly in the OR for 200-ish hours, but there was no patient interaction as they were under anesthesia whenever I was present. I turned-over ORs and observed surgeries intermittently. I spoke with a student pre-medical advisor at my school and he mentioned me needing to do things such as IV's(?) I have done nothing of the sorts nor do I have any plans to do so. I want to volunteer at a local hospice center since, as morbid as it may seem, I think it is important for me to expose myself to genuine suffering as the role of a physician should be to help alleviate said suffering. I would rather do that than insert IV's into blood donors or whatever it would be.

I am just a bit stressed realizing that I will be in another country next year (the entire year) and will be confined to a small university in Vermont for the majority of the summer. I do not know when I am going to fit in these requirements that do not really line up with my studies (research and clinical volunteering respectively). I really want to study medicine, but I want to go directly after undergraduate, with a year gap at most. I do not want to go obtain some masters degree to demonstrate that I am serious about medicine; I find that unnecessary and a waste of money.

I guess I am asking... Am I screwed? Am I being too stubborn? I want to study abroad a full year, I want to attend Middlebury this summer, and I want to volunteer at hospice rather than insert IV's into blood donors' arms. And I do not want to spend my summer in a lab. But most of all, I want to attend medical school in the US. If I am being unreasonable with these goals let me know so I can reason with you. My pre-medical advisor randomly retired so I am left pretty much to the internet for pre-medical support at this time. Any input is greatly appreciated.

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[ciestar]

If you want schools like Penn and Yale, you need research. Being an orderly isn’t clinical since you werent interacting with patients.

If you do this program, you may have to accept you’ll do a gap year, which isn’t the end of the world.

 

[Saturday’s Child]

If you want schools like Penn and Yale, you need research. Being an orderly isn’t clinical since you werent interacting with patients.

If you do this program, you may have to accept you’ll do a gap year, which isn’t the end of the world.

Yeah research on some level is likely a must. But I believe LizzyM has said that as long as you’re “close enough to smell patients”, it counts as clinical. The only potential negative is that because OP is not really interacting with the patients and it’s in a surgical setting, they may not have many good stories or pivotal experiences from it.

 

[ciestar]

Yeah research on some level is likely a must. But I believe LizzyM has said that as long as you’re “close enough to smell patients”, it counts as clinical. The only potential negative is that because OP is not really interacting with the patients and it’s in a surgical setting, they may not have many good stories or pivotal experiences from it.

Yeah, LizzyM does say this, but it still won’t be counted the same as they aren’t conscious. That is kind of the point of clinical experience. Do you want to be around sick people?

 

[KnightDoc]

Hi all; I am currently a second-year in college (large, mid/low-tier public university). I live in California. I am a philosophy major, and I have decided to attend Middlebury Language Programs this summer to strengthen my Russian before taking my year abroad in Moscow. With this, I have cut out a potential summer of research; I had it lined up to potentially do cancer research at CU Cancer Center, but I was not all that excited about it as I am to further my Russian studies through Middlebury's language programs. I am doing most of the pre-medical classes as electives, but they are not in my field of study. With this educational path (Middlebury this summer and some shadowing, abroad next year, MCAT prep and volunteering following summer) I do not really have any room for substantial research, nor am I particularly drawn to complete any scientific research at this time.

I know that research is not the most important thing, but with that being said, do I have a chance at good medical schools with NO research whatsoever? The extent of my scientific research would just be through the laboratories in my pre-med classes. I complete research papers for philosophy, but they are never hypothesis-based.

Some schools I have in mind are Vanderbilt, UCSD, Perelman, Yale and Duke. I know these are probably long-shots but if anyone has an idea if it is a possibility with a stellar GPA and MCAT, but no research, please let me know! I have not started the very difficult classes yet, but I can confidently say I will maintain a 3.9+ GPA, with the MCAT I have no clue but I am typically a strong test taker so I have high hopes for myself. I am also applying to Icahn's early assurance program which seems wonderful, but of course, I cannot bank on that as it also seems highly competitive and my high school grades went to the gutter (personal trauma occurred at this time).

I also do not have any clinical volunteering. I worked as an orderly in the OR for 200-ish hours, but there was no patient interaction as they were under anesthesia whenever I was present. I turned-over ORs and observed surgeries intermittently. I spoke with a student pre-medical advisor at my school and he mentioned me needing to do things such as IV's(?) I have done nothing of the sorts nor do I have any plans to do so. I want to volunteer at a local hospice center since, as morbid as it may seem, I think it is important for me to expose myself to genuine suffering as the role of a physician should be to help alleviate said suffering. I would rather do that than insert IV's into blood donors or whatever it would be.

I am just a bit stressed realizing that I will be in another country next year (the entire year) and will be confined to a small university in Vermont for the majority of the summer. I do not know when I am going to fit in these requirements that do not really line up with my studies (research and clinical volunteering respectively). I really want to study medicine, but I want to go directly after undergraduate, with a year gap at most. I do not want to go obtain some masters degree to demonstrate that I am serious about medicine; I find that unnecessary and a waste of money.

I guess I am asking... Am I screwed? Am I being too stubborn? I want to study abroad a full year, I want to attend Middlebury this summer, and I want to volunteer at hospice rather than insert IV's into blood donors' arms. And I do not want to spend my summer in a lab. But most of all, I want to attend medical school in the US. If I am being unreasonable with these goals let me know so I can reason with you. My pre-medical advisor randomly retired so I am left pretty much to the internet for pre-medical support at this time. Any input is greatly appreciated.

Basically, what @ciestar said. You absolutely won't need a post-grad program for top MD programs if your GPA and MCAT are super good, but philosophy and Russian are only going to get you so far with the top programs if you are lacking the superlative ECs these programs expect.

You asked about "good" schools and then used some of the very best schools in the country as examples. The bottom line is you can definitely get into a "good" school with little to no research, but anyone's odds of acceptance at a top school are slim to none going in, and go down from there if you aren't checking ALL of the boxes multiple times!!

Bottom line -- you are neither too stubborn nor "screwed," but you're also not going to Yale or Penn if you expect to substitute a year in Moscow for substantial, substantive research. You should do whatever makes you happy, and adjust your expectations accordingly. You should also realize that you are talking about a very overachieving pool, and really should not assume a 520+ MCAT based on past SAT performance and a 3.9+ GPA, so, without an MCAT score, your worries are very premature.

 

[coconutts]

If you want schools like Penn and Yale, you need research. Being an orderly isn’t clinical since you werent interacting with patients.

If you do this program, you may have to accept you’ll do a gap year, which isn’t the end of the world.

Thank you. Would hospice volunteering be counted as clinical? It is not in a hospital per say, but it is with patients who are suffering.

 

[coconutts]

Basically, what @ciestar said. You absolutely won't need a post-grad program for top MD programs if your GPA and MCAT are super good, but philosophy and Russian are only going to get you so far with the top programs if you are lacking the superlative ECs these programs expect.

You asked about "good" schools and then used some of the very best schools in the country as examples. The bottom line is you can definitely get into a "good" school with little to no research, but anyone's odds of acceptance at a top school are slim to none going in, and go down from there if you aren't checking ALL of the boxes multiple times!!

Bottom line -- you are neither too stubborn nor "screwed," but you're also not going to Yale or Penn if you expect to substitute a year in Moscow for substantial, substantive research. You should do whatever makes you happy, and adjust your expectations accordingly. You should also realize that you are talking about a very overachieving pool, and really should not assume a 520+ MCAT based on past SAT performance and a 3.9+ GPA, so, without an MCAT score, your worries are very premature.

Thank you. I do not mean to be premature or arrogant and know it is likely I cannot score super high on MCAT, but I want to position myself just in case I do and it ends up being a possibility. I would be grateful to study at any medical school in the country, I just want to aim as high as possible so that I may achieve higher. If I aim for the best then I will achieve more. It will be too late once I know my MCAT score to alter my undergraduate track.

I just cannot fathom why a medical school would find a summer research program more valuable than being exposed to a new culture for a full year. What about research exactly do they find so valuable? Perhaps there is a way for me to attain that skillset in other ways. I just do not have time or passion for a full research program. Would a poster presentation in the field of philosophy/bioethics be favorable even though it is not hypothesis based?

 

[coconutts]

Yeah research on some level is likely a must. But I believe LizzyM has said that as long as you’re “close enough to smell patients”, it counts as clinical. The only potential negative is that because OP is not really interacting with the patients and it’s in a surgical setting, they may not have many good stories or pivotal experiences from it.

Really little to no interesting stories other than observing surgeries! I smelled the burning of their skin through the OR but that is about it in terms of patient interaction.

Could hospice volunteering be clinical? Or volunteering at a Down syndrome clinic? Hospital volunteering is tricky because typically the ones that allow for undergraduates are not too in line with my interests. I would love to volunteer at a Down syndrome clinic but it is difficult to find that opportunity as there are not many and they are typically fairly small.

 

[Saturday’s Child]

Really little to no interesting stories other than observing surgeries! I smelled the burning of their skin through the OR but that is about it in terms of patient interaction.

Could hospice volunteering be clinical? Or volunteering at a Down syndrome clinic? Hospital volunteering is tricky because typically the ones that allow for undergraduates are not too in line with my interests. I would love to volunteer at a Down syndrome clinic but it is difficult to find that opportunity as there are not many and they are typically fairly small.

I would recommend looking in the "essential pre-med wisdom" thread here on SDN. You will find plenty of explanations of what would count as clinical experience. I think the two examples you mentioned would count. From personal experience, I would highly recommend staying away from big hospitals and looking for opportunities at clinics, even if they are small. You will usually get to do and see more there than you would at a hospital, at least from what I've seen.

 

[ciestar]

Thank you. I do not mean to be premature or arrogant and know it is likely I cannot score super high on MCAT, but I want to position myself just in case I do and it ends up being a possibility. I would be grateful to study at any medical school in the country, I just want to aim as high as possible so that I may achieve higher. If I aim for the best then I will achieve more. It will be too late once I know my MCAT score to alter my undergraduate track.

I just cannot fathom why a medical school would find a summer research program more valuable than being exposed to a new culture for a full year. What about research exactly do they find so valuable? Perhaps there is a way for me to attain that skillset in other ways. I just do not have time or passion for a full research program. Would a poster presentation in the field of philosophy/bioethics be favorable even though it is not hypothesis based?

Simple. They’re RESEARCH institutions, so of course they value it highly. I believe Duke even requires a research year of its students, but I am not sure if they’re the only one.

I get you’re not interested, I wasn’t either, but without hypothesis-based research, the research powerhouses will be a higher reach.

 

[Moko]

Research is not an absolute requirement even at most of the research powerhouses; however, if you don't have meaningful research, the other aspects of your application better make up for it. The bigger question is why try to attend a research-focused school if you have no interest in research? You will get a good education and training (sometimes even better) at non research institutions.

 

[Mkif586]

The bigger question is why try to attend a research-focused school if you have no interest in research? You will get a good education and training (sometimes even better) at non research institutions.

Name prestige... (don’t want to start any holy war, there are few threads that already speculate about it)

 

[Moko]

Name prestige... (don’t want to start any holy war, there are few threads that already speculate about it)

Name and prestige are unfortunately huge factors for many trainees, and the irony is that the only other people who care are usually those in those circles. The insinuation from the title that only "top" programs can provide good training is false, as others have pointed out. After training, unless someone plans on staying in academia, pretty much no one else will care where they went to school or trained. So trainees should be honest with themselves about their ambitions and motivations for pursuing medicine, and use that to guide which schools are the best match for them. Food for thought, from a pedigree show dog who had been part of the academic prestige rat race .

 

[deleted480308]

Thank you. I do not mean to be premature or arrogant and know it is likely I cannot score super high on MCAT, but I want to position myself just in case I do and it ends up being a possibility. I would be grateful to study at any medical school in the country, I just want to aim as high as possible so that I may achieve higher. If I aim for the best then I will achieve more. It will be too late once I know my MCAT score to alter my undergraduate track.

I just cannot fathom why a medical school would find a summer research program more valuable than being exposed to a new culture for a full year. What about research exactly do they find so valuable? Perhaps there is a way for me to attain that skillset in other ways. I just do not have time or passion for a full research program. Would a poster presentation in the field of philosophy/bioethics be favorable even though it is not hypothesis based?

BECAuse one (research) is work and the other (year abroad) is a field trip for those with the means to have a year long field trip

 

[Catalystik]

Could hospice volunteering be clinical? Or volunteering at a Down syndrome clinic? Hospital volunteering is tricky because typically the ones that allow for undergraduates are not too in line with my interests.

For either , it depends on your role, and whether you are interacting with patients. Some hospice programs have you doing laundry, cleaning, and preparing meals. That is not "clinical."

 

[candbgirl]

Hospice will be fine and in fact, is highly thought of if you are talking and helping the patients.

The underlying theme from every single one of your posts in this thread is that you do not , under any circumstances, want to step out of your comfort zone. You don’t have an interest in research, the hospital that is near you doesn’t line up with your interests,etc.. For heavens sake- you are volunteering, not performing transplant surgery. So what if they don’t line up with your interests? Hospitals around here allow high school kids to volunteer. So you shouldn’t have an issue finding a hospital to volunteer at if you want to. You need to come face to face with people of all kinds. You are so laser focused on what you will do and not what you should do.

Each year 60 percent of all applicants are rejected. This includes students with stellar applications. People who have done everything possible to present the best possible application they can. Of the other 40 percent, around 20 percent receive only one acceptance.

You have the next several years all laid out and there seems to be no way you will deviate. If you want it all plan for a few gap years. (You mentioned shadowing in Russia. That’s okay but your clinical activities need to be in America. So you need to shadow here too.) you really should get some nonclinical volunteering too. This should focus on the unserved/underserved in your community. Look for a homeless shelter, soup kitchen,etc.. And you can’t do it all in one summer after your year in Russia. It should be longitudinal. Why aren’t you doing some of this now? Why are you waiting to start some of these ECs?

I think traveling and visiting other countries is great. I’ve done it and I treasure those experiences and I think they have made me who I am and certainly open to other cultures. But that didn’t replace what I needed to do back at home to achieve my goals.

 

[Lucca]

The path forward for an applicant like yourself with interests outside of the basic sciences who wants to go to a school like Yale looks like this:

1. Keep your GPA as high as possible, score above a 517. Focus on this during school as much as possible.

2. Very strong evidence of service. Beef it up as much as possible, ideally in a clinical environment.

3. If there is anyone working on anything related to health policy / med anthro / Bioethics at your university, get involved with their work and ideally help them produce something you can put on your CV.

4. The main reason for 3 is to be competitive for the NIH Bioethics predoctoral fellowship:

Fellowship Opportunities | Bioethics

www.bioethics.nih.gov

Or a similar program post UG (Fulbright/Gates/Marshall for Med Humanities/ Med Anthro / Poli Sci etc, pick ur favorite area) that will Show you are not just a hobbyist humanist but a serious scholar who wants to use their skills to contribute to medicine and society at large.

5. After that you’re ready to apply.

The idea behind this trajectory is to leverage your background in the humanities towards a clinically relevant application (Bioethics, policy, service). After demonstrating excellence in those areas You should then, hopefully, be competitive for something like the NIH fellowship where you can use those skills in a directed manner to work on problems relevant to clinical medicine. Alternatively, you can apply for the IRTA postbacc at the NIH and get involved on a clinical research project if you don’t want to do basic science or philosophy/Bioethics work.

Ultimately you will need evidence of sustained scholarly achievement and a hint that you have the potential to be a leader in academic medicine which is one of the major “types” of applicants these schools are looking for. There is no substitute for the effort required, even if it means driving an hour to find the nearest quality clinical experience for now. Everybody wants to go a Top School (TM) but nobody wants to put in the effort. If you are truly motivated by the work and curiosity and not just prestige you will make it happen.

 

[Goro]

Hi all; I am currently a second-year in college (large, mid/low-tier public university). I live in California. I am a philosophy major, and I have decided to attend Middlebury Language Programs this summer to strengthen my Russian before taking my year abroad in Moscow. With this, I have cut out a potential summer of research; I had it lined up to potentially do cancer research at CU Cancer Center, but I was not all that excited about it as I am to further my Russian studies through Middlebury's language programs. I am doing most of the pre-medical classes as electives, but they are not in my field of study. With this educational path (Middlebury this summer and some shadowing, abroad next year, MCAT prep and volunteering following summer) I do not really have any room for substantial research, nor am I particularly drawn to complete any scientific research at this time.

I know that research is not the most important thing, but with that being said, do I have a chance at good medical schools with NO research whatsoever? The extent of my scientific research would just be through the laboratories in my pre-med classes. I complete research papers for philosophy, but they are never hypothesis-based.

Some schools I have in mind are Vanderbilt, UCSD, Perelman, Yale and Duke. I know these are probably long-shots but if anyone has an idea if it is a possibility with a stellar GPA and MCAT, but no research, please let me know! I have not started the very difficult classes yet, but I can confidently say I will maintain a 3.9+ GPA, with the MCAT I have no clue but I am typically a strong test taker so I have high hopes for myself. I am also applying to Icahn's early assurance program which seems wonderful, but of course, I cannot bank on that as it also seems highly competitive and my high school grades went to the gutter (personal trauma occurred at this time).

I also do not have any clinical volunteering. I worked as an orderly in the OR for 200-ish hours, but there was no patient interaction as they were under anesthesia whenever I was present. I turned-over ORs and observed surgeries intermittently. I spoke with a student pre-medical advisor at my school and he mentioned me needing to do things such as IV's(?) I have done nothing of the sorts nor do I have any plans to do so. I want to volunteer at a local hospice center since, as morbid as it may seem, I think it is important for me to expose myself to genuine suffering as the role of a physician should be to help alleviate said suffering. I would rather do that than insert IV's into blood donors or whatever it would be.

I am just a bit stressed realizing that I will be in another country next year (the entire year) and will be confined to a small university in Vermont for the majority of the summer. I do not know when I am going to fit in these requirements that do not really line up with my studies (research and clinical volunteering respectively). I really want to study medicine, but I want to go directly after undergraduate, with a year gap at most. I do not want to go obtain some masters degree to demonstrate that I am serious about medicine; I find that unnecessary and a waste of money.

I guess I am asking... Am I screwed? Am I being too stubborn? I want to study abroad a full year, I want to attend Middlebury this summer, and I want to volunteer at hospice rather than insert IV's into blood donors' arms. And I do not want to spend my summer in a lab. But most of all, I want to attend medical school in the US. If I am being unreasonable with these goals let me know so I can reason with you. My pre-medical advisor randomly retired so I am left pretty much to the internet for pre-medical support at this time. Any input is greatly appreciated.

I can't sugar coat this. You're screwed if you maintain this unrealistic obsession with the Really Top Schools when you have absolutely nothing to show that you are competitive for them, and that you really don't understand anything about Medicine. You need to interact with conscious patients.

 

[MyOdyssey]

Am I being too stubborn? ... Any input is greatly appreciated.

Definitely.

You lack clinical volunteering, nonclinical volunteering, shadowing (in the US), hypothesis driven research, a track record in the tough premed courses and a MCAT score. And you're assuming you can score in the top 1% of the MCAT without any prior track record suggesting such a possibility (no mention of prior standardized test taking track record, no MCAT diagnostic test scores, no track record in really tough premed courses that require you to solve tough conceptual problems on exams, not merely regurgitate science facts).

Doing hypothesis driven research will help you not only with the research component of a balanced medical school application but with the MCAT, which requires you to analyze experimental data and understand the types of lab techniques you're likely to encounter in your standard molecular biology/biochemistry lab. All the other things are baseline criteria. Many people accomplish all those things and can't get a single T20 medical school acceptance or sometimes any acceptances.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Being an orderly isn’t clinical since you werent interacting with patients.

Being an orderly is most definitely clinical...

 

[ciestar]

Being an orderly is most definitely clinical...

An OR orderly? Patients under anesthesia?
Yeah, normally if you’re going into patient rooms on a med-surg unit, but not in OP’s case. Isn’t the point patient interaction?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

An OR orderly? Patients under anesthesia?
Yeah, normally if you’re going into patient rooms on a med-surg unit, but not in OP’s case. Isn’t the point patient interaction?

Yes absolutely. Patients are patients...

 

[deleted927529]

I think it is important for me to expose myself to genuine suffering as the role of a physician should be to help alleviate said suffering. I would rather do that than insert IV's into blood donors or whatever it would be.

Why this condescension? Before deciding that a job is beneath you because you don't get to "alleviate suffering," you should read the news. Taking blood from donors is vital work.

Hundreds lined up to answer the pleas for blood donations in El Paso after the shooting

After calls by El Paso officials to donate blood, a local center reported that over 240 units of blood were given after the Walmart shooting.

www.usatoday.com

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

do I have a chance at good medical schools with NO research whatsoever?

Some schools I have in mind are Vanderbilt, UCSD, Perelman, Yale and Duke.

I have not started the very difficult classes yet, but I can confidently say I will maintain a 3.9+ GPA, with the MCAT I have no clue but I am typically a strong test taker so I have high hopes for myself.

I also do not have any clinical volunteering. I worked as an orderly in the OR for 200-ish hours

I guess I am asking... Am I screwed? Am I being too stubborn?

Based on all the comments here the answer is yes and yes.

 

[ciestar]

Yes absolutely. Patients are patients...

Adcoms here disagree lol

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Adcoms here disagree lol

It came up in all 5 of my interviews.... it was the only clinical experience I had. Same with the other 8 orderlies I worked with that got accepted, and 5 of them are currently at elite schools.

 

[coconutts]

I appreciate all this honesty!

 

[coconutts]

Name and prestige are unfortunately huge factors for many trainees, and the irony is that the only other people who care are usually those in those circles. The insinuation from the title that only "top" programs can provide good training is false, as others have pointed out. After training, unless someone plans on staying in academia, pretty much no one else will care where they went to school or trained. So trainees should be honest with themselves about their ambitions and motivations for pursuing medicine, and use that to guide which schools are the best match for them. Food for thought, from a pedigree show dog who had been part of the academic prestige rat race .

From my understanding they are the best schools in training for pediatric surgery which is my specialty of interest. Some happen to also be highly regarded in Research, but that is not why I want them nor prestige. Perhaps the prestige in the name of pediatric surgery is a reason why, but is that not a valid reason? I want to go where is best for what I wish to do.

As I have said several times in this thread, I would love to study at any American medical school. I do not see the harm in aiming for the best in my projected specialty. This seems more like a resentful jab at a large group of people who want to get into any top school rather than myself. If I cared about going to the top school I would be looking into Harvard, JH, UCSF, etc. I want to do what is needed for the best in my prospective specialty so that I can get accepted somewhere in the states rather than getting an MBBS in Russia. Forgive me for aiming higher than I may achieve in hopes that it will increase my drive and opportunities.

 

[coconutts]

Research is not an absolute requirement even at most of the research powerhouses; however, if you don't have meaningful research, the other aspects of your application better make up for it. The bigger question is why try to attend a research-focused school if you have no interest in research? You will get a good education and training (sometimes even better) at non research institutions.

For their surgery programs.

 

[coconutts]

BECAuse one (research) is work and the other (year abroad) is a field trip for those with the means to have a year long field trip

Being LGBT in Russia (a developing country) with a language barrier for a full year meant more than a field trip to me. This is very disheartening to hear. Do you really think that it will just make me look privileged and lazy to admissions? It is much cheaper for me to study in Russia than where I am currently, flights included!

 

[coconutts]

1) is your goal to become a physician or is your goal to attend a top medical school? In other words, if you dont get into a "top' school would you decide not to attend to medical school? If you answer is "of course I would still go" then your question and worry is irrelevant, so why are you wasting time and focus on it.
https://aamc-orange.global.ssl.fast...ing-medical-school-2018-amcas-infographic.pdf

Thank you for the information. Of course I would go if I do not get into a top school. I do not think people get where I am coming from. Say we arbitrarily split US med schools into ranks A, B, and C. If I do what I can to get into tier C (which I am very happy with), then there is a chance that I will fail to do enough and thus I am left not being able to go to A, B, or C as I failed to obtain my goal of C. If I do what I can in pursuits to get into tier A, then even if I fail, hopefully I still have done enough for C when the time comes to apply. Do you get where I am coming from? I am tricking myself in a way I guess... I know that my chances at those goals are slim to none, but why not aim for it? If I fail, at least I would have hopefully done more than I would have if I was aiming for acceptance anywhere.

 

[coconutts]

Hospice will be fine and in fact, is highly thought of if you are talking and helping the patients.

The underlying theme from every single one of your posts in this thread is that you do not , under any circumstances, want to step out of your comfort zone. You don’t have an interest in research, the hospital that is near you doesn’t line up with your interests,etc.. For heavens sake- you are volunteering, not performing transplant surgery. So what if they don’t line up with your interests? Hospitals around here allow high school kids to volunteer. So you shouldn’t have an issue finding a hospital to volunteer at if you want to. You need to come face to face with people of all kinds. You are so laser focused on what you will do and not what you should do.

Each year 60 percent of all applicants are rejected. This includes students with stellar applications. People who have done everything possible to present the best possible application they can. Of the other 40 percent, around 20 percent receive only one acceptance.

You have the next several years all laid out and there seems to be no way you will deviate. If you want it all plan for a few gap years. (You mentioned shadowing in Russia. That’s okay but your clinical activities need to be in America. So you need to shadow here too.) you really should get some nonclinical volunteering too. This should focus on the unserved/underserved in your community. Look for a homeless shelter, soup kitchen,etc.. And you can’t do it all in one summer after your year in Russia. It should be longitudinal. Why aren’t you doing some of this now? Why are you waiting to start some of these ECs?

I think traveling and visiting other countries is great. I’ve done it and I treasure those experiences and I think they have made me who I am and certainly open to other cultures. But that didn’t replace what I needed to do back at home to achieve my goals.

Thank you. I am hoping to shadow this summer before going to Russia, as well as the following breaks. Shadowing is something I am very excited for; I have my letters prepared to send to physicians. In Russia, there is potential "research" but I am not quite sure how hypothesis driven it will be as it is in the humanities. I am looking into the medical school there to see if there is scientific research to do, but with the language barrier it may be difficult (I do not know medical terminologies in Russian yet).

For my nonclinical volunteering, would my 400+ hours volunteering with Down syndrome community be good? I want to volunteer even more at this specific program I have done which is a summer camp. I want to do 400+ more hours as I genuinely love being there. Not necessarily an economically undeserved population, but a population that faces extreme prejudice and hardship nonetheless, and something I speak with true passion of. I am sure I would like volunteering at shelters/kitchens as well, but for now this is what I truly love volunteering for.

For clinical volunteering, does NICU cuddling count? I would be holding babies; I love babies. That and hospice if I can find clinical for it.

 

[coconutts]

I can't sugar coat this. You're screwed if you maintain this unrealistic obsession with the Really Top Schools when you have absolutely nothing to show that you are competitive for them, and that you really don't understand anything about Medicine. You need to interact with conscious patients.

Thank you for your honesty. I never claimed that my orderly job is clinical; I do not think it is. I would love to interact with conscious patients. It is the scientific research that was giving me trepidation. Does me not finding interest in lab research make me seem like I do not understand medicine? Or was it something else I said? My obsession with the top schools is to help me achieve higher; I am very goal oriented. I was hoping to get a list of goals that I should achieve the next few years to help me have a chance for admissions at any medical school and the best way to do that was, in my mind, to ask for what is needed for the best of the best. Again, I do not have a pre-med advisor so I am left to online for input. I think this thread has given me those goals I need!

 

[Bonne Nuit]

Being LGBT in Russia (a developing country) with a language barrier for a full year meant more than a field trip to me. This is very disheartening to hear. Do you really think that it will just make me look privileged and lazy to admissions? It is much cheaper for me to study in Russia than where I am currently, flights included!

This Russia trip sounds important to you. If that’s the case, then do it for its own sake. Just know that it will be an experience that, while interesting, is largely irrelevant to your gaining acceptance to a medical school (Yale tier or otherwise).

 

[coconutts]

Definitely.

You lack clinical volunteering, nonclinical volunteering, shadowing (in the US), hypothesis driven research, a track record in the tough premed courses and a MCAT score. And you're assuming you can score in the top 1% of the MCAT without any prior track record suggesting such a possibility (no mention of prior standardized test taking track record, no MCAT diagnostic test scores, no track record in really tough premed courses that require you to solve tough conceptual problems on exams, not merely regurgitate science facts).

Doing hypothesis driven research will help you not only with the research component of a balanced medical school application but with the MCAT, which requires you to analyze experimental data and understand the types of lab techniques you're likely to encounter in your standard molecular biology/biochemistry lab. All the other things are baseline criteria. Many people accomplish all those things and can't get a single T20 medical school acceptance or sometimes any acceptances.

Thank you. Do you think, in terms of research, if I find bioethics/philosophy research I may accomplish those goals? I can hopefully become familiar with the lab techniques through my Ochem/Bio labs required for pre-med, and then the analysis and data/scientific method through humanities research.

 

[coconutts]

Yes absolutely. Patients are patients...

I mean the patients are literally just being wheeled in and out of the OR. I do not think me watching them being operated on should be counted as anything clinical in regards to being with patients... I was exposed to surgical equipments with inventory and sterile technique upon some other things that I found useful, but patient interaction was nonexistent. How would this be clinical?

 

[coconutts]

Why this condescension? Before deciding that a job is beneath you because you don't get to "alleviate suffering," you should read the news. Taking blood from donors is vital work.

Hundreds lined up to answer the pleas for blood donations in El Paso after the shooting

After calls by El Paso officials to donate blood, a local center reported that over 240 units of blood were given after the Walmart shooting.

www.usatoday.com

I never meant to condescend those who take blood. I find that incredibly meaningful, of course! I did not mean to insinuate any job is "beneath" me... I was an orderly! I want to do whatever it takes! I am just saying that I would rather visit/speak with patients who are in states of suffering rather than take blood as I personally feel like it would be more meaningful to me. It is my personal preference. I did not know if it counted but now I know hospice does count as long as I am with the patients.

 

[coconutts]

It came up in all 5 of my interviews.... it was the only clinical experience I had. Same with the other 8 orderlies I worked with that got accepted, and 5 of them are currently at elite schools.

I mean I presume it was brought up because it is your only experience related to hospital/healthcare, no? If you had a clinical experience would that not be brought up instead? I do not want to market my orderly job as clinical. I can say that it taught me more about the OR environment/healthcare admin/surgical equipment etc, but it did not teach me about patients.

 

[Catalystik]

Do you think, in terms of research, if I find bioethics/philosophy research I may accomplish those goals?

Yes.

 

[coconutts]

This Russia trip sounds important to you. If that’s the case, then do it for its own sake. Just know that it will be an experience that, while interesting, is largely irrelevant to your gaining acceptance to a medical school (Yale tier or otherwise).

I would argue that it can increase skills of empathy, shows me stepping outside my comfort zone and challenging myself, upon other "softer" skills. Perhaps it will not help my admissions to medical school (nor is that any reason for me to do it), but I have no doubt that it will help me become a better physician.

 

[coconutts]

well this is just pitiful; it is exactly what I needed. Thank you all! I am so glad I learned how I come across before my potential Icahn interview, imagine how embarrassing that would be.

@Goro and @LizzyM you are the masterminds and have liked several comments indicating misunderstanding/miscommunication on my end (e.g. me not wanting to step beyond my comfort zone when I am asking to do whatever I can to help my unique schedule [the only thing I am not compromising is my half summer at Middlebury and year abroad, as well as more than 1 gap year, which leaves this full year, half of this summer, winter breaks, and the following 2 full years and summers], me not wanting to interact with conscious patients when I do but just have not done it yet, and a year as LGBT in Russia being a field trip that shows me having the means to travel rather than a genuine challenge, etc). May you add any input for me? I am sorry to pry, but anything is appreciated.

 

[Bonne Nuit]

I would argue that it can increase skills of empathy, shows me stepping outside my comfort zone and challenging myself, upon other "softer" skills. Perhaps it will not help my admissions to medical school (nor is that any reason for me to do it), but I have no doubt that it will help me become a better physician.

Fine, sure, whatever. Do it for your own personal fulfillment. I’m sure it will be a formative experience for you.

My point is: plenty of applicants have study abroad experience, and plenty don’t. Just like how plenty of candidates are athletes, or have some other exciting extracurricular. These add interest to your application, but do not substitute for core components of a medical school application.

97% of those accepted to Yale’s medical school in 2018 had research experience. It’s basically the same for other T10 schools. If you truly want a shot at these schools, then you need to endeavor to look like the candidates that get into these schools.

Your application, as it stands right now, is not really cutting it for research powerhouses - and that’s OK. Perhaps you’d be a better fit for state or mission-driven schools given your background and interests. Your step scores will inform your candidacy for pediatric surgery, not your medical school’s brand name.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I mean the patients are literally just being wheeled in and out of the OR. I do not think me watching them being operated on should be counted as anything clinical in regards to being with patients... I was exposed to surgical equipments with inventory and sterile technique upon some other things that I found useful, but patient interaction was nonexistent. How would this be clinical?

I mean I presume it was brought up because it is your only experience related to hospital/healthcare, no? If you had a clinical experience would that not be brought up instead? I do not want to market my orderly job as clinical. I can say that it taught me more about the OR environment/healthcare admin/surgical equipment etc, but it did not teach me about patients.

No it was brought up because I was directly interacting with patients and their families on a daily basis and aiding the physicians and nurses with patient care. It is 100% clinical. I had interviewers comment on how great my "extensive clinical experience" was. I've literally never seen anyone, adcom or otherwise, say it wasn't clinical.

From my understanding they are the best schools in training for pediatric surgery which is my specialty of interest. Some happen to also be highly regarded in Research, but that is not why I want them nor prestige. Perhaps the prestige in the name of pediatric surgery is a reason why, but is that not a valid reason? I want to go where is best for what I wish to do.

1) pediatric surgery is a FELLOWSHIP. You are more than 1.5 decades away from even being able to think about it. 2) Pediatric surgery might be the most competitive fellowship in all of medicine 3) To do pediatric surgery you will have to take TWO YEARS of dedicated research time in residency just to be competitive for it. For someone who wants to do no research in undergrad to actually get into medical school that's a terrible omen. 4)You haven't even taken the hard science classes yet, let alone the MCAT, and you're here trying to claim you want to go to UPenn (LOL).

 

[coconutts]

Fine, sure, whatever. Do it for your own personal fulfillment. I’m sure it will be a formative experience for you.

My point is: plenty of applicants have study abroad experience, and plenty don’t. Just like how plenty of candidates are athletes, or have some other exciting extracurricular. These add interest to your application, but do not substitute for core components of a medical school application.

97% of those accepted to Yale’s medical school in 2018 had research experience. It’s basically the same for other T10 schools. If you truly want a shot at these schools, then you need to endeavor to look like the candidates that get into these schools.

Your application, as it stands right now, is not really cutting it for research powerhouses - and that’s OK. Perhaps you’d be a better fit for state or mission-driven schools given your background and interests. Your step scores will inform your candidacy for pediatric surgery, not your medical school’s brand name.

Yes this is what I need! Thank you! Of course it is not cutting it I am only a second-year. Hopefully, with all this input, I will be able to form a resume that does cut it for SOME medical school out there... Preferably MD in America if that is not being too stubborn. May I ask, Something I have been wanting to do is bring a summer camp for young adults with Down syndrome to my university (right now it mostly is on the East coast). If I were to fundraise for, organize for, and direct a camp here in California, would that be something that is stellar, or just another volunteer experience? In my mind, it requires a lot and would be an incredible feat, but I am not sure how it "sounds." It is something I want to do regardless, but I am just curious. It is something I am thinking about for my gap year as I love the program so much.

 

[coconutts]

No it was brought up because I was directly interacting with patients and their families on a daily basis and aiding the physicians and nurses with patient care. It is 100% clinical. I had interviewers comment on how great my "extensive clinical experience" was. I've literally never seen anyone, adcom or otherwise, say it wasn't clinical.



1) pediatric surgery is a FELLOWSHIP. You are more than 1.5 decades away from even being able to think about it. 2) Pediatric surgery might be the most competitive fellowship in all of medicine 3) To do pediatric surgery you will have to take TWO YEARS of dedicated research time just to be competitive for it. For someone who wants to do no research in undergrad to actually get into medical school that's a terrible omen. 4)You haven't even taken the hard science classes yet, let alone the MCAT, and you're here trying to claim you want to go to UPenn (LOL).

My orderly job was not interacting with patients, your's seems like it was. So, mine is not clinical experience. That is all I know. I know pediatric surgery is a fellowship, I am just hoping to get exposed to pediatrics and GS in medical school clinical rotations. I do not like research when it comes to undergraduate lab work as that seems mundane to me and everyone who I have heard from hated their undergrad research in bio/chem/etc and said they did nothing, genuine research in a field of interest is different so I am not worried about that potential requirement. I am also not positive on my specialty as I have not even been accepted to med school yet.

And I also want to go to the Moon but I have not yet become an astronaut. I want a hot tub but do not have a backyard. It is okay to want things and not expect them. Me wanting to go to UPenn is not a demonstration of my hubris. That is a genuine misunderstanding in this thread.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Me wanting to go to UPenn is not a demonstration of my hubris.

No but saying your goal is to go to a top 10 medical school and in the same breath saying you don't want to do research is.

 

[Bonne Nuit]

Yes this is what I need! Thank you! Of course it is not cutting it I am only a second-year. Hopefully, with all this input, I will be able to form a resume that does cut it for SOME medical school out there... Preferably MD in America if that is not being too stubborn. May I ask, Something I have been wanting to do is bring a summer camp for young adults with Down syndrome to my university (right now it mostly is on the East coast). If I were to fundraise for, organize for, and direct a camp here in California, would that be something that is stellar, or just another volunteer experience? In my mind, it requires a lot and would be an incredible feat, but I am not sure how it "sounds." It is something I want to do regardless, but I am just curious. It is something I am thinking about for my gap year as I love the program so much.

I think this is absolutely stellar experience, both from a personal fulfillment angle (i.e., it’s just good for your soul) and in terms of a medical school application. But I also have done significant work myself with kids with intellectual disabilities; I have a big soft spot for this population, so I’m very biased.

If you like working with kids with ID, Best Buddies is another great organization.

 

[OfMiceAndWomen]

I would argue that it can increase skills of empathy, shows me stepping outside my comfort zone and challenging myself, upon other "softer" skills. Perhaps it will not help my admissions to medical school (nor is that any reason for me to do it), but I have no doubt that it will help me become a better physician.

You should definitely do the year abroad in Russia! It sounds like something you're passionate about, which you should pursue regardless of whether it looks good for medical school or not.

It's also perfectly fine to aim high, and it's also good to be asking for advice here. To be competitive at top schools, you need more than stats (assuming that you kill the MCAT). You need to have ECs that stand out and can be tied together in a coherent narrative. You don't necessarily need basic science research for the top schools, but you do need to demonstrate that you've pursued what you're intellectually/socially interested in at a rigorous level, beyond just sitting in a classroom and learning. Being LGBT in Russia? Do a thesis/independent study on the LGBT community there. Think about the community you're living in -- how will you engage with and serve this community?

You're only a sophomore, you have a lot of time. There isn't any key extracurricular activity that you *need* to do, except getting clinical exposure (yes, volunteer at hospice!). You just have to do really well with what you're passionate about, and be able to explain why that will make you a good physician.

 

[coconutts]

No but saying your goal is to go to a top 10 medical school and in the same breath saying you don't want to do research is.

Okay, my goal is MD! My old pre-medical advisor said research is overrated and I do not need it upon other things that have apparently made me underestimate its significance. I never said I want to do no research, I said I do not want to do science research and I am having trouble finding hypothesis-driven philosophy research.

 

[coconutts]

Being LGBT in Russia? Do a thesis/independent study on the LGBT community there. Think about the community you're living in -- how will you engage with and serve this community?

This is brilliant, thank you so much! I will speak to the LGBT studies and Russian studies depts to see about this. I would actually love to do this and feel it can be hypothesis-driven.