Do i have to show prove that i had volunteered/..can i lie on the applica

Discussion in 'Pre-Medical - MD' started by Dr. FS, May 2, 2000.

  1. Dr. FS

    Dr. FS Member

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    I've never volenteer, so i want to know if i lie on the application (saying that i voleenteered) do i have to show them any prove, would they be able to find out that i lied.

    PS.-I am not a lyer but i would do anything to get in!!!!!!

    Thank you in advance!
     
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  3. daphnefish

    daphnefish Junior Member

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    I am trying not to be judgmental here?

    DO NOT LIE ON YOUR APPPLICATION. This is why: if you are asked about your experience and you have nothing to say, pull some story out of your ass or come across as insincere, you are in a much worse position than if you had never lied in the first place. Besides that, it is just wrong, and you should know that. If you really want to get into med school that badly and believe that volunteer work is essential for your application (which it's not), then by all means find a few hours a week to read stories to kids in a hospital, or help out at a day camp. I do not suggest becoming a literacy tutor, though. It is spelled volunteered, not ?voleenteered?.
     
  4. dlbruch

    dlbruch Senior Member

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    If you don't want to be a liar and would do anything to get in then go get yourself a volunteer position! They are not hard to get, you simply have to put some effort into it.
     
  5. UHS03

    UHS03 Senior Member

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    No, no one will do a background check on it I'm sure, but it will come up in interviews. You may be asked to talk about experiences you have had volunteering, you will be expected to mention it on your personal statement, and they will wonder why none of your letters of recommendation came from preceptors you may have had. Once (and if) you are in med school, people will talk about their past experiences, and you will find yourself lying there too...a snowball effect. Furthermore, many other students actually HAVE worked hard to get into medical school, and you may cheat them out of a deserved seat in the entering class (assuming you actually manage to dupe the system.) If you really wanted to go to medical school, you would have put the effort into your application (not to mention the fact that many students actually get something out of their experiences beyond just a resume builder.) These things may not bother you, which is really your perogative. One final note, if you get caught you can bet the farm that you will be blacklisted at every medical school in the country. Do you really want to risk your career over a lie? Tell the truth, if you don't get in, do some significant volunteer work over the next year (perhaps consider volunteering in some foreign underserved area like Africa or something.) Regardless, you really should start volunteering somewhere now, at least you'll then be able to honestly say you did it..and who knows, you might get something out of it which will make a good story to tell in an interview.

    If this post was flame-bait, I guess I fell for it [​IMG]
     
  6. Carbon Klein

    Carbon Klein Senior Member

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    I think UCSD's secondary application states that if you are accepted, you must demonstrate your work/extracurricular experience (I'm not sure how, since I got rejected). I think Stanford's secondary asks for phone number and addresses of preceptors for whom you've worked with in volunteer positions.

    Most schools take your word for it.

    I'm not the most active in terms of extracurrics, but over the years, I've done a little here and a little there, and when it came time to fill out my AMCAS, it looked really impressive. [​IMG] I rarely talked about my extracurrics during my interviews because they were minor points on my application.
     
  7. MODEERF NIATPAC

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    Dr.FS,
    Just in case you didn't understand my reply to you in your other thread (working 25hrs/wk...), let me paraphrase: LIE, LIE, LIE, and LIE. Just make up some silly stories like I told you in the other post. If they ask you on interviews, make up something. If you can't make up any stories about being a big brother/big sister, a meals on wheels driver, volunteering at a nursing home playing with the old dudes, or reading stories to kids in a children's hospital, etc., then you have more important problems to deal with. Of course, don't put any volunteering that is really unique, like going to Kenya or whatever, because they will surely ask about that. But all that stuff I said above, they would never know. By the way, don't buy that thing about once you get in people start talking about what you did and your lie will snowball. It won't happen! So go on, work and make your money, and say on your application that you tutored some middle school kids about math and english. But you better Ace the MCATs and pull up your grades, or you can forget about it. [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    I am the only one that will give you honest advice here. The rest of these jokers will give you their holier than thou routine. For crying out loud, someone actually said can you live with yourself if you lie and take someone's seat who is more deserving. Duh!! Hell yea!!!
     
  8. daphnefish

    daphnefish Junior Member

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    I guess there is not much to be said for integrity these days... sad.
     
  9. Dr. FS

    Dr. FS Member

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    Thank you all for your opinions and advices, but specially to MODEERF NIATPAC.
     
  10. dlbruch

    dlbruch Senior Member

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    FS- Why do you "specially" thank the post that encourages you to lie. It seems that you really just wanted someone to tell you that you should lie. Considering how easy it is, and how little of your time it could take, to get a volunteer position, it seems like you are just too lazy or unmotivated to actually do it. What a shame!

    And BTW: If you can't be bothered to do this simply thing, you really aren't willing to do anything to get in! And if you lie on your application, you actually are a liar- contrary to what you would like to believe about yourself!

     
  11. MODEERF NIATPAC

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    Dr.FS,

    You're welcome!!! If you have to work 25 hrs a week, then you have a tough road. Med school application is a tough road, and there aren't many shortcuts. You can't skimp on your class studying or MCAT studying or your grades and scores will show it. If you skimp on your working, then your empty pockets will show it. However, if you skimp on your "volunteering," nobody will know and it won't show. So this is where you can save yourself all those hours and hours of torture. Believe me, you won't be the only one in your class to do it!! Good luck in your application and in your Medschool career!!!

    More good news to come.....
    !!!MMOOODDDEEEEERRRFFF
     
  12. alexcc_ms

    alexcc_ms Member

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    Is it OK if I steal, kill, and make coats out of baby dalmations for Cruella Deville to pay for my med-school tuition.
    I'm not a thief, a killer, or a coatmaker. But I really need the money. Boohoo, nobody who's ever been accepted to medical school has ever had to hold a job while applying/interviewing (It's called multitasking loser; you've got alot to learn).
    I'm glad there are only 2 unethical persons writing on this thread.
    You ARE lazy, you ARE a liar, and with those two qualities you'll be a lousy doctor.
    Volunteering is about learning how to give back to the community, finding some perspective, and doing some good for mankind.
    You'll probably burn out anyway, cuz if you don't care enough about people to give a couple of hours a week, you're in it for the wrong reason.
    See you on the informercials quackboy(s).
     
  13. alexcc_ms

    alexcc_ms Member

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    Just a first year... you don't have to grow up yet right? When do you?

    I've got another hypothetical for you:

    It's ok to cheat on the USMLE's isn't it? I can perform sexual favors for my supervisors during my rotations right? I mean I really want to be a plastic surgeon. (ever since I was a kid... (you still are, grow up punk))

    Hey, I can let this patient die right.. after all I'm late to a PTA meeting.


    AAANYWAAAY, your GPA is ridiculous.... maybe you should be a nurse's assistant's assistant, huh.

    You're not a lost case, but there are reasons for all the hoops you must jump through, accept the responsibility. I hope you make the right decision (even if you don't become a doc).

    (More encouraging of irresponsible behavior to come)... ooo good stuff, for shame!
     
  14. Dr. FS

    Dr. FS Member

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    Ok, lets have something clear...i have not decided to lie yet, but if the circunstaces does not give me any other choice i will do it. I may not feel good about it, but if by breaking the rules a little i will get me into medical school, i think it is worth it.

    Ohhhh, another thing, i "specilly thank MODEERF.." because he has gave me more than one advice and i truly apreciate every reply that i get(from every one).

    alexcc_ms:
    i really feel sorry for you, clearly you are one of those students(if you are one) that everything they have or do is paid by another person. i am only 19(will be 20 next sunday-May 7), but i've been in the real world since an early age. Apparently you have not!

    Here is my regular schedule pal....Every morning i wake up at 6:03 a.m., then i head to work, then i go to school(5 classes), when i arrive home at night (9 p.m) i have to make dinner, do HW, shower, bla, bla, bla...and then i go to bed usually around 1:30 a.m.(everyday i spend about 20 minutes in the net-reading the New york times, cheking my E-mails, and come to this web-page) yet i, very confident can say that i am going to graduate with a GPA of 3.0 or higher. my GPA is ridiculous heh, heh, heh...Would you be able to say the samething with my schedule? it would be better to become a nurse- right?

    i bet that if you where in my possition you would choose an easier way, just like you told me: "become a nurse...or PA" well, i am not planning to give up that easily. i will do whatever i can to accomplish my goal. i feel that i am smart, and strong enough to make it, by the way you reply my ?, unfortunately, i can't say the samething about you (to alexcc_ms) but thanks anyway for your comments!


    sure-what about sinceriness? well pal
     
  15. MODEERF NIATPAC

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    I think there is a little bit of difference between cheating on the USMLE and embellishing an application. If you don't know your medicine, people will die. If you didn't do a volunteering gig, nobody dies. [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] Besides, a lot of people tell a few white lies anyway. For example, if you volunteer 6 hrs/week, you say 9 hrs. No problem. So if FS does 0, then he says 10. Nobody dies. I wonder if you all in this board ever do anything wrong. Well, I'm sure you are all perfect people, and never ever ever ever told a white lie. If you did tell a lie, then oh no, how can I be sure that you won't kill your patients to get home in time to watch the last 15 minutes of Who wants to be a millionaire?

    FS, that's a tough schedule there buddy. Keep your chin up and do what you think is best. I guarantee you that you are not the only one that does it.

    More good news to come....
    !!!MMMOOODDDEEEERRRRFFF
     
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  17. Carbon Klein

    Carbon Klein Senior Member

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    I don't understand what situation will leave you with no choice but to lie on your application. If you didn't do volunteer work, then don't put anything down under it. Being a doctor isn't about doing anything it takes...medicine is a highly respected profession built on trust and integrity as much as it is built on competence and knowledge.

    If you really want honest advice, then read on.

    Most schools send out secondaries to all applicants and on these secondary applications, they have spaces for you to talk about your employment history include # of hours worked per week. Many students have to work full time during college and I'm sure admission committees are not going to dismiss them arbitrarily. The adcoms will take your work obligations into consideration because they want to see the whole picture of you, not just grades and not just volunteer work. Not all medical students are rich kids with a free ride, so some of them had jobs to pay their way.

    By the way, over the summers, when you're not taking classes, you can do some volunteer work. I'm not talking about teaching little kids to do math or anything like that. Get some time in a hospital. That's very important. Show the adcoms you actually LIKE being in a hospital. It can be as little as 3-4 hrs a day ONCE a week. I used to do that over the summers because I just plain couldn't get time during the rest of the week. I did that over one summer, then stopped and returned again the next summer to the same hospital. I even got a certificate of appreciation by the hospital because slowly but surely, my hours added up (even though I forgot to sign in sometimes). So what if you only have one thing listed under "volunteer work". It's still something, right?

    By the way, you might want to cut back on the work hours to help bring your undergrad GPA up from 3.0 because that's very low if you're interested in US MD schools. You can take out some student loans to help pay for bills and those loans can be deferred interest free until AFTER you graduate from medical school. Many docs graduate with debts in the low six figures, so it's not unusual. Despite all the hoopla about being a well rounded applicant, grades are the bottom line and if you don't have the grades, then you don't get your foot in the door.
     
  18. buttercup

    buttercup Senior Member

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    Dr FS-

    In addition to what I think is some great advice you just received from carbon klein, here are some other ideas. First, volunteering is med school adcoms way of knowing whether you can deal with patients. There are multiple ways to prove this. One idea is to get a job as a research assistant in a clinical study. For example, when I was an undergrad I worked at a sleep clinic. I monitored vital signs, took blood pressure and histories, analyzed data, and reported it to the doctors conducting the study. In my breaks, I would take a snack and go and talk to the patients- I had some wonderful experiences doing this, and, I got paid [​IMG]
    You could also be a substitute teacher, a nurse's aid, or a variety of other paid positions which are highly service related!

    Another idea is to find a volunteer position which allows you to multi-task. For another example, a suicide hotline is actually a very good volunteership. For one thing, it really prepares you for some of the emotionally intense dilemmas you will certainly face as a doctor. For another, you can learn to do two things at once.... I spent my sophomore and jr years working for a suicide hotline srvc. I worked the night shift, so from 11 to 1 I would sit by the phone and study while watching for any calls. Then i would go to sleep with it by my head so if any one had a crisis, I would wake up immediately. Most nights no one called, and I spent a night just as I would have done at home. The nights someone did call were tough, and I went to classes the next day feeling like sh--, but, the feeling of being able to help someone, maybe even save a life.... was worth everything.

    Good luck to you Dr. FS.
     
  19. UHS2002

    UHS2002 Senior Member

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    FS,

    Do you take credit for papers you haven't written too, or copy other people's lab reports and present them as your own??? Making up volunteer experiences that you haven't had is in the same category.

    Instead of wasting your time on the computer, asking people whether you can get caught if you lie, find a volunteer job so that you will NOT have to lie.

    I am not moved that you have to work 25 hrs a week. I worked my way through undergrad and grad school. Afterwards, I worked part-time while doing my pre-med coursework and still had the time to volunteer about 24-30 hrs a week, for over a year! No, I didn't have the time to hang out with my friends, to go out to dinner, to catch a movie or to sit in front of the TV or computer, but then these things weren't going to get me into med school, were they?!

    Not everyone is born with a silver spoon in his mouth. Some have the good fortune of having a family with means to support them through their studies and others don't. So what?! We should be gratefull that we live in a country where we can still advance in life thanks to hard work.The secret is stop whining and start doing.
     
  20. lumanyika

    lumanyika Senior Member

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    Hey people,
    All the insight that has been shared on this forum is quite interesting.However,I've a similar scenario to FS's,and a disturbing situation;

    (1)I'm an international student(which means that financial aid is out the door).I'm on partial sponsorship from the U.N.

    (2)I work almost 40 hrs per week(wake up at six,go to school,work at school,work out of school in the evening-from 7--10p.m.)

    (3) My GPA is currently 3.4,and I'll be taking the MCAT next year.(Biochemistry major)

    (4)I've been taking the full coarse-load during summer,and working longer.

    I did some volunteer work back home in Kenya before coming to college,and also acquired a commercial pilot's licence.Is anyone familiar with Africa Medical & Research Foundation? well,if you aren't,then you should find out the magnificent job their "flying doctors" do.It's one of my future aspirations!

    Would the above extra-carriculars bare any weight on my applications to med. school??

    Cheers.

    (5)I would love to do some volunteering et. al.,but my schedule is just too tight.

    (5)

    ------------------
    TO WHOM MUCH IS GIVEN,MUCH IS EXPECTED.
     
  21. Pebbles

    Pebbles Senior Member

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    Dr. FS

    You said that you are a strong person: well, follow through with your words and be honest on your app. I don't feel sorry for you one bit with having to work, so does everybody else!

    What does FS stand for, Full of $h*t?

    Plus, IF you do get in you will fail out because you cannot lie your way through. In rotations, the patients, nurses and other docs will eat you alive.

    If you can not handle the work load of the pre-med, You will not handle the work load of Med.

    Plus, a lie....you will not get away with it.

    Sorry, be so hard on ya...but do what is right. Don't jepordize your future on one little thing.



    [This message has been edited by Pebbles (edited 05-10-2000).]
     
  22. buttercup

    buttercup Senior Member

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    luminyika- My advice to you is the same as for Dr. FS (although much more sympathy does out in your case). Try and find a service-oriented job, like a clinical researcher, nurse's aid, etc. Alternatively, try to do a volunteership or work that allows you to work on homework at the same time- those are a little harder to swing, but, again, manning the phones at a suicide crisis center is great (although you have to have a good amount of training beforehand- but I found the training to be interesting and well-worth the experience).

    Also, here's another, slightly more crazy idea. Apply for a Fulbright, or some other grant/scolarship (I must admit I don't know which ones are available to international students) that allows you to pursue your own "project" and will pay for it. I've known some folks who have done this, you can set it up as a joint research/volunteer proposal (say, studying the effects of a mentorship program on kids in urban areas, etc.) get a couple people to help you out, and then have both research, and volunteerwork under your belt whilst having a source of income. This idea takes a lot of finesse, but if you pull it off, I guarantee it will earn you a lot of respect on Adcoms (not to mention from your peers)
    Good luck to you!
     
  23. alexcc_ms

    alexcc_ms Member

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    Get a grip FS.

    6am to 9pm that's a whopping 15 hour day, and I'm sure where you come from (that strange land where people aren't handed everything) there are no such things as weekends. So, let's see 15x7=105 hrs/wk, Give you the benefit of the doubt and assume all 5 of your classes have labs, so that's another 30 hrs out of your week. 105-30=75hrs.

    Hey buddy you're getting ripped off. You're working 75 hours and only getting paid for 25. Well I hope in your career as a nurses assistants' assistant you don't get ripped off that way.

    And by the way, I come from a single parent blue collar family. I'm 29, accepted to medical school and self-supporting for the past 12 years. You were way off. Your's truly, alexcc_ms [​IMG] (the smile is for my inner contentment for having EARNED my seat in med school)
     
  24. UHS2002

    UHS2002 Senior Member

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    Lumanyika,

    all things are relative. In your case, the fact that you are not a US citizen will be the thing that will weight more heavily against you when time comes to apply and not your lack of volunteering experience in the US. I don't know your immigration status but I assume, from your post, that you are on a student visa (since you call yourself and "international student"). It pretty much goes like this when applying to med school:

    1) US citizens are given top preference
    2) Permanent residents ("green card" holders)
    3) Holders of student visas with some kind of official sponsorship from back home or LOTS of financial resources.

    You mentioned that you are partially sponsored by the UN, so make sure the school knows this, and some official paperwork from them would not hurt you with your secondary applications.Some medical schools may be particularly interested in training you if you are going to be a UN employee, or if the UN is paying the tuition.

    Remember, working during medical school to totally support yourself is impossible, so you need a source of income and somebody to pay your tuition.

    Fullbright and other kinds of fellowships, research positions and any kind of paid position in exchange for you work, are out for people on student visas, and I am sure you already know this, but others on this forum may not, so I am mentioning it. I would also like to mention, for future reference, that people on a student visa are expected to show that they have all the money needed for 1 year of tuition and living expenses up front, before they can receive the visa and enroll in school. Because they have to apply to the few private schools that will even consider their application, we are talking showing that you have a significant amount of cash before you can enroll. International students are NOT eligible for any kind of federally funded/state funded financial aid, are not eligible for private loans (heck, most banks will not even give them a credit card), and most scholarships from other sources including private usually stipulate US citizen/permanent resident only.

    I know this wandered off the subject of your post, which was lack of volunteering experience in the US. However, it seems to me that the visa status/money issue should be your foremost consideration. All the volunteering in the world will not make up for these other things at the time of your application, if they are no solved.

    If money and visa are not issues for you, then cut some time off your working schedule or summer class schedule and, by all means, get some volunteering done!

     
  25. aecuenca

    aecuenca Senior Member

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    Dr FS

    Would you like some cheese with your whine?

    Give me a break. I did similar things to what you did and still found the time to get some volunteer experience somewhere. Yeah, life's a bitch and then you die. You deal with it the best you can.

    I know others who are in much tougher situations than you but they won't resort to lying on their applications.

    If you have the need to lie on your app, you should follow everyone's suggestion and find a new profession. Perhaps being a lawyer? [​IMG]

    Just my two cents...

    Arnold
    WESTERN UNIVERSITY/COMP CLASS OF 2004
     
  26. Carbon Klein

    Carbon Klein Senior Member

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    To aecuenca

    RE: "Do you want some cheese with your whine?"

    I never heard that one before, it's really clever! [​IMG]

    ------------------
     
  27. Dr. FS

    Dr. FS Member

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    To those who Replied, or are planning to..

    I got all the opinions, and advices i needed to make my decision. Yeah, yeah, i will not lie, one's pride, and word of honor is worth too much, i was going to make a mistake..a mistake..a mistake. Thank you all.

    Dr. FS
     
  28. medic

    medic New Member

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    FS - Well let me say that you know yourself better than anyone. If you truely believe that this is you....do it. Grades, MCAT, volunteer, etc., is not what makes a great doctor. But like everyone else has said, it's not that hard to get some volunteer experience. Look at it this way: adcoms look at your story, see that you were a very busy person...AND you even MADE time to volunteer. Even if it is only 20 hrs in total...that even makes it better. It shows that you gave back...no matter how big or small...you gave back.

    As for your busy schedule....I really don't want to hear it. Let's see, I too wake up at 6 am in order to get to my 7:30 class; go to school until 12:30. Then I work 4, 12 hr shifts for a grand total of 48 hrs a wk (regular schedule) from 2 pm to 2 am, and that is just WORK. I work as a paramedic and study between the average of 8 calls a shift. Then I get to go home and sleep for 2 to 3 hrs a night (that is if I can get off my shift in time). I hold a 3.89 GPA, teach a paramedic class, ACLS class, BTLS class, ATLS class, and am a Tae Kwon Do instructor (I noticed that your intrestes were martial arts on your profile). I volunteer overseas 1 month out of my summer time (completely funded by money that I raise in my community)
    By far I do not have a silverspoon in my mouth nor have I ever. But one day I will be a doctor and I will put that silverspoon in my mouth. Note that it may be a wooden spoon or me using my fingers to eat when I go back overseas to volunteer after becoming a doctor, but it will taste and feel like silver because of the rewarding feeling of it all - healing and helping. Find your motivation for all of this. If it is in the right context then lie: if you can truely feel that you will make a good DOCTOR (not paycheck) then lie by all means. The volunteer experience will not make you a good doctor. It may get you into med school, but will not make you a good doctor.

    -wwwooooaaahhhh there cowboy! sorry for all that FS didn't mean to get up on my soap box. But anyway, I'm sure that you will make the right decision; and I hope to see you in med school my friend! best of luck to you!
     
  29. Djanaba

    Djanaba Senior Member

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    Just another thing no one else has brought up:

    When you apply, you will have folks supply letters of recommedation, and those may be compiled into a committee letter with attachments (if you have such a committee at your school). If you have a rec from a volunteer supervisor, and it's a good one, that letter will be worth its weight in gold. If you say you did something that schools are looking for (work, volunteer, take course x) but have nothing to show for it, it raises red flags.

    There are ways to volunteer on your own time. I was an assistant researcher for the National Council Against Health Fraud and published a few articles -- but it still counts, is related to medicine, and I could have gotten a rec. (But I also did ER volunteering in a dinky hospital in rural MN, and got a fantastic rec from my college's volunteer coordinator.)

    On a personal note, a volunteer experience will give you a LOT more than a nice perk on your application. It will give you real-world experience, personal interactions, and maybe even some moving moments you can take with you as you go through life. It will teach you in new ways. *These* are the important personal parts of doing some volunteerism.
     
  30. Carbon Klein

    Carbon Klein Senior Member

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    Another useful thing about volunteering is that you will know if you really dislike the field before you invest any real time into it. I have never been so bored as when I worked in the ER. (It was a smaller hospital near San Francisco and I did the Sat night/Sun Morn "graveyard" shift).
     
  31. miglo

    miglo Senior Member

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    FS: Lie like a motherf****!! Do it! Thats exactly what we need in the field, a lieing doc. Since you know, its soo damn hard to volunteer for 10 measely (sp?) hours like everyone else. You should DEFINITELY start your career off with a bang right? Why stop there! DONT! Hell, if you get a chance, sleep with your interviewer! Heres miglo's plan for getting into medschool for the lazy liar :

    1) Hire a professional to write your personal statement
    2) Lie about volunteer work (something like 80+hrs a week will DEFINITELY impress them)
    3) Lie about research work (includes making up fake research articles to put on your CV)
    4) Forge fake recommendation letters
    5) Claim you where a nobel prize candidate but lost due to political reasons
    6) Say you worked 40+ hour weeks while taking care of your dieing mother/father/dog/whatever
    7) Change some of your C+'s to B-'s on you app (like they really check)
    8) Tell them you are EMT/Parametic/whatever certified
    9) Tell them you have Native American blood "somewhere" in you

    Feel free to add to this list, we need to help FS out!! He can't get in like everyone else, and needs YOUR help to find a backdoor.

    In the event you get an interview and feel a little nervous, a few swigs of Tequila will do the trick. Did I mention sleep with the interviewer if you can? Please keep us all posted with your pathetic attempt of becoming a doctor.

     
  32. reed0104

    reed0104 Senior Member

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    Why would you lie about volunteering? If you really would do anything, promise to donate a new anatomy lab or something, think big.

    For all you whiny babies posting and complaining about their schedules, guess what, you signed up for it- so shut up.


    BTW, Dr. FS is obviously Modeereff or whatever.

     
  33. ptbear1970

    ptbear1970 Junior Member

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    Since we are on the topic of Volunteer work, I have question! I did volunteer work(about 1000 hours) from the time I was 13 - 16 with the intention of going to med school. While doing so I learned about physical therapt, did more volunteer work, eventually went to PT school and have been working as a PT since 1992 in all areas(hospitals, outpatient clinics, schools, etc) As I make a 360 and at the age of 29 with two children I am applying to med school for 2001. Is there an appropriate place for me to talk about my volunteer experience before my PT degree. Is this outdated? Do I refer to my actual work experience only(which probably could stand alone?) Any advice would be appreciated.THanks!
     
  34. ptbear1970

    ptbear1970 Junior Member

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    Since we are on the topic of Volunteer work, I have question! I did volunteer work(about 1000 hours) from the time I was 13 - 16 with the intention of going to med school. While doing so I learned about physical therapy, did more volunteer work, eventually went to PT school and have been working as a PT since 1992 in all areas(hospitals, outpatient clinics, schools, etc) As I make a 360, and at the age of 29, with two children, I am applying to med school for 2001. Is there an appropriate place for me to talk about my volunteer experience before my PT degree. Is this outdated? Do I refer to my actual work experience only(which probably could stand alone?) Any advice would be appreciated.THanks!
     
  35. TMJoyner

    TMJoyner Junior Member

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    FS-

    Do you have any idea how easy it is to volunteer??? Do you think it is difficult to get a job volunteering? It is so simple and easy!!!! I am just a freshman and I have already found ways to obtain easy volunteering jobs that will impress medical schools. I recently started coaching a kid?s soccer team; I only have to give 3 hours a week of my time yet it looks so good on applications. After the season is over I will already have close to 50 hours of logged volunteer time. We are all just as busy as you are and if we can do it so can you!!!! You make is sound like you life is so tuff; well guess what life isn't easy. If you have classes during the week I welcome you to volunteer on the weekends. There is always time for something if you really want to do it. Your problem is you are too lazy to do it. We all have to work hard to achieve our goals. You aren?t really achieving them if you are lying!!!!!
     
  36. TMJoyner

    TMJoyner Junior Member

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    DR FS-

    Your messages are so annoying.... first you want to complain to all of us that you don?t have enough time to keep up with you grades, and now you have the bright idea of lying about you extracurricular activities. You are really on the straight and narrow. I am sure with your grades and being predisposed to bitch and moan about everything none of us will see you in med school.

    Thanks,

    TMJoyner
     
  37. tristate

    tristate Senior Member

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    FS (and for anyone else struggling with the same problem).

    Lies eventually catch up with you. What if an interviewee at the same interview happens to be a part of the same organization that you claim to take part in. What if the person is asked about your performance and cannot vouch for you. This can be especially complicated if the interviewee is a student leader who knows everyone in their program. However, this is just a senario, but I know is can happen. I was a student leader for a volunteer organization at my school. Many times I was used as a reference for students looking for scholarships and jobs in the city. An individual falsely used me as a reference, and the company called me. I had to tell the company that the individual was not in my program, and I had the database to prove it. As a result the person did not receive the job.

    Volunteering should not just be an activity to pad a resume or essay. Community service comes from the heart. If you have the heart, do it because you want to help others. That's what doctors do 24/7 and not just 3-4 hours a week.

    ------------------
    And the blessings just keep coming!
     
  38. AJ

    AJ Junior Member

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    Not everybody has time to volunteer and I don't think it is absolutely necessary to get accepted. I'm not saying volunteering is not worthwhile or admirable. I worked throughout college in the medical field and did other non-medically related activities but never did any "volunteer" work. I was never asked about it in any of my interviews. I think the best solution is to stress what you have done and let them focus on that rather than lie about something you haven't done. Besides there are more important aspects of your application to worry about.
     
  39. RYSA

    RYSA Member

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    To UHS2002,

    I'm a stickler for true facts, and although a lot of what you said in you post to Lumanyika was true, I really want other international students (especially Canadians) to understand their real options. As a Canadian who will be matriculating at a U.S. med school in August, I have done a lot of research and feel that I should pass on some of this knowledge.

    Most U.S. medical schools do not look at Canadians the same way that they look at other international students. Meaning that for Canadians they will waive the green card requirement and will apply the out-of-state tuition rates. As a result, at most med schools Canadians are looked at just like out-of-state applicants, and therefore have very good chances for admission.

    However, Canadians are out of luck when it comes to government loans and grants...for that you will need to hold a green card.

    UHS2002 is right in saying that you need to financially prove at least one years cost of medical education in order to obtain your I-20 form (student visa).

    However, UHS2002 was incorrect in stating that as an international student "fellowships, research positions and any kind of paid position in exchange for you[r] work, are out for people on student [F-1] visas."

    International students can obtain fellowships, they can (and many do accept research positions) and getting paid for any kind of work is possible, however there are strict rules that must be followed. If you intend to do research or any kind of other paid work (i.e., T.A.ships, administative work, working in the cafe or library) this work must be done ON CAMPUS for at least the first year at school. After the first year, you can apply to the INS for financial hardships, where they may approve you to work off campus. One strict stipulation is that your work, either off or on-campus must not exceed 20 hours per week during the school year, but during breaks you may work full-time.

    With regard to international students obtaining loans and credit cards, what UHS2002 states was false. International students can, and many do, obtain credit card from most major banks in the U.S. In addition, international students can obtain private loans for medical school, but the catch here is that the international student will need a U.S. citizen or permanent resident cosigner. For Canadians, there are a few more options that I discussed in a previous thread.

    I purposely did not speak of Fullbright, because from my understanding, in most cases you need to be enrolled in a Canadian institution (or other international school) and the purpose of the Fullbright program is to enhance the study of Canada (or other international country) in the United States or the United States in Canada. Proposed projects, which are only funded for one year durations, must adhere to this aim by including a focus on the United States, Canada or the relationship between the two countries.

    I don't know of many med students on student visas who have obtained this type of funding, and you really only have one chance to apply for the award (before you enroll in med school) since applications will NOT be considered from those who are already residing or enrolled in a program in the host country (the U.S.).

    However, international medical students are eligible for many fellowships and scholarships based on merit and financial need that are sponsored by the U.S. medical school or other outside sources.

    One more point, international students do not have to only apply to private med school with the exorbant tuition. Many state schools will accept international students, you just have to do the research to find out which ones. I, myself, will be matriculating at a state medical school.

    I hope this clears up any misunderstanding. My stance is that it is not really that difficult for an international applicant to gain admittance and pay for their medical education in a U.S. medical school. However, I am approaching this from a Canadian perspective and I appreciate the fact that it may be much more difficult for applicants from other international countries.

    FYI, I am paying for med school in the States through personal savings, Canadian government loans and a graduate research (paid) assistantship offered to me by my medical school.

    Have a good summer!




    ------------------
    "A goal without a deadline is, in reality, only a wish"
     
  40. Volunteer work can be very enjoyable and beneficial to you. I have a bachelor's in sociology and before I considered medicine as a career, I wanted to be a psychiatric counselor. In order to do so I needed to have some experience in working with troubled people. This lead me to doing volunteer work with several types of populations. I volunteered in a Psych hospital, a youth prison and in a substance abuse treatment center.

    I enjoyed helping people and learning about them and found myself always looking forward to coming back to help out. Well, afterawhile I applied for a job as a counselor in a mental hospital and was hired based on my volunteer experiences. I was really happy!!!!

    While I worked as a counselor I got to learn about medicine, illness, and what it was like to work directly with patients and various healthcare professionals. This experience got me interested in medicine.

    My point is that volunteer work can bring many things: 1) You can have many enjoyable experiences by helping people. 2) It can help you get a paying position where you will be able to gain more experience in working with patients. 3) It will give you a better idea of what you are interested in. Although, I enjoyed doing biopsychosocial assessments on drug patients, I learned that I am not interested in becoming a substance abuse counselor. 4) It can make your book knowledge come alive. For example, in abnormal psych you study disorders. By volunteering your time on a psych ward, you can see how these disorders really affect people. 5) Sometimes volunteer work can be a great stress reliever.



    [This message has been edited by ocean_doc (edited 05-30-2000).]
     
  41. UHS2002

    UHS2002 Senior Member

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    Rysa,

    I think you paint an unfairly optimistic picture for international students, most likely because you are Canadian and, as you yourself pointed out, have a somewhat "privileged" status as "foreign students" are concerned. Personally, I do not truly consider Canadians "foreign students" exactly for this reason.

    I worked with international students for many years at a major university. The reality of the loans and fellowships/scholarships avaliable to them is rather bleak. From a brochure that was published yearly listing about 100 or so sources of no/low interest loans and scholarships, there were perhaps 5 or so which would be theoretically open to international students.

    Yes, international students can apply for a hardship work exemption after a year in the US, however:
    - the application in itself costs a fair sum
    - it is not that easily granted and students are reticent to apply for it because they have to prove that something in their financial situation changed radically since the time they applied for their student visa (which is granted on the premise that these same students are able to support themselves in the US for their course of studies). Once they show a compelling change in their financial status, which now forces them to work in order to support themselves, students fear that any renewal necessary to their student visa may not be granted, as now they are in the position of "not actually having the means of support" they need to show for their student visas.

    As for not needing to apply to the most expensive schools, international students do not get in-state tuition, as you stated yourself, so even "cheap" schools are not that cheap. Furthermore, perhaps being Canadian and having a dollar which is close in value to ours and having an economy that is very comparable to US standards, may make it hard to realize that even $10,000 for a foreign student from a third world country may constitute something close to the total average wage earned in 5-10 years in his home country. Most third world countries and many European countries do not have the government backed university loan programs that the US and Canada have. I know many European students who could not get a penny out of their government in loans to come and study here. Why should their government pay when higher education, including medical school, is almost free for their citizens?! The situation is many times worse from students of less affluent countries.
    The many international students I met who were receiving funding from their government were students at the graduate, mostly at the pre and post doctoral level.

    Yes, you are correct that international students can work, up to 20 hours a week on campus. Nevertheless, a person would be hard pressed trying to pay his way through medical school on such wages.

    Canadians are not under the same scrutiny other foreign students are in order to study in the US, for financial reasons cited above (and perhaps because our countries are just so culturally similar). Canadians can come and go across the border any time of day or night, and so can we across the Canadian border, without anybody blinking an eye. Sometimes it would take our international office almost a year to get the paperwork of a student from a country in Africa or South America in shape just enough so that the student could get a visa...

    I am a stickler for the truth myself and I have seen a lot of international students going through tremendous hardship and daily anguish, to paint a picture as rosy as the one you have painted...
     
  42. RYSA

    RYSA Member

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    UHS2002,

    I think my attempt to paint a clearer picture for international students did not fail...I was able to give more information that you failed to provided in your previous post, which I felt was necessary to share.

    I think I started my post by saying that the information I was providing was meant especially for Canadians, who are still international students by definition (and in the eyes of immigration), even if you, yourself do not consider them to be. However, all aspects of the info I provided could apply to any international student. I really do not think I painted too much of an optimistic picture, all of what I said is true.

    I know of a couple medical students who are from developing countries who have used many if not all the options I stated. I appreciate the fact that due to the poor economy in many international countries, the tuition fee for many med schools (both state and private) may seem unreachable...but there are options available,(i.e., several loans with a U.S. cosigner; limiting applications to schools that provided scholarships/assistantships to international applicants..because there are several schools that do this), to the determined international student. And believe me, the U.S. exchange rate for the average Canadian is no walk-in-the-park either.

    I think that it is up to the intended readers of these posts to take from them what they can. But as I said, I am a stickler for the truth, and my intention was to lay out all the options that I knew of(from my small Canadian perspective) and provide a picture that was not as bleak as you painted, and would have, in effect, detered many qualifed international applicants from applying to U.S. medical schools. For future reference, maybe you should consider doing the same next time.

    My overall message to any international applicant is that where there is a will, there is a way, and nothing is impossible! [​IMG]
     
  43. UHS2002

    UHS2002 Senior Member

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    Rysa

    why then not go the entire way and provide a list of the schools which you say offer financial assistance to international students?! I think this list would be incredibly usefull for the many people that inquire about this very subject. As a matter of fact, there is a new member of this board, who just posted a message in this regard under a different subject. Apparently he inquired with the U. of Miami and was told he needed a green card to just to apply, never mind any kind of financial aid. So I am sure he could benefit greatly from the info you have.

    As far as I know this info is not avaliable anywhere, so if you have first hand knowledge of several medical schools who will offer any kind of financial assistance to international students, please don't be stingy and post it! [​IMG]

    As for our little argument, I must admit that you are right, an international student COULD obtain a private loan if a US citizen was a co-signer since, in reality, this makes the US citizen responsible for the loan repayment. I would be surprised to see many people volunteering to be cosigners on a 75k or more loan, particularly when there is no guarantee that the other person is going to be able to repay it. Also, most private loans require some kind of guarantee (there are few banks which would loan you this amount just on your word...) so you must be terrific friends with the person you are taking the loan out for to put your savings, investment account or house as guarantee for the loan. Furthermore, who is going to be making the monthly payments?!

    Personally, and it may perhaps be because I am stingy in addition to misinformed, LOL, I would not take out such a loan for my own brother, much less for a friend. I don't care if this person is going to graduate from med school in 4 years and, after almost as many in residency, is going to finally get a green card and pay me back, in installments. Who, in the meantime, is going to be paying the interest? Unlike government guaranteed loans, many private loans expect you to, at least, be paying the monthly interest on your loan. And even if you could get the deal of the century and not having to do so, what prevents your friend from telling you, once he/she graduates, "thank you so much, but I cannot pay it right now"...? Gratitude?! Heck, people divorce the spouses that help put them through med school and to whom they had sworn undying love and someone is going to tell me that gratitude is an iron clad guarantee that my friend is going to repay the gobs of money I basically took out, in my name, as a loan for him?!
     

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