MD Do MD schools care about students?

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How is your MD school environment?

  • Very supportive

  • Supportive

  • Average

  • Below average

  • Malignant


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For what it's worth, no school is perfect, and I'd be the first to criticize my MD school. However, I've learned to keep your head down, get your degree, and get out- chances of you changing anything as a student is small and not worth the risk to your career. To quote the Fat Man: "They can always hurt you more."

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For what it's worth, no school is perfect, and I'd be the first to criticize my MD school. However, I've learned to keep your head down, get your degree, and get out- chances of you changing anything as a student is small and not worth the risk to your career. To quote the Fat Man: "They can always hurt you more."
Under the radar is the way to go. Your goal should be to get to graduation and have your dean look you in the eye and say “are you a student here?”
 
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Under the radar is the way to go. Your goal should be to get to graduation and have your dean look you in the eye and say “are you a student here?”
Fortunately, We love our dean at my school.
 
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Under the radar is the way to go. Your goal should be to get to graduation and have your dean look you in the eye and say “are you a student here?”
The dean of our MD school is very helpful and close to students. They offer valuable advice and connections and advocate for their students. Students are generally happy here, contrary to my former DO program. Current classmates told me that our female dean told a student who complained about being sexually harassed in OMT lab that she ruined the physician's career. She then suspended that student for a video of her dancing. Most students are scared and it shouldn't be this way. It is also not right for admin who are responsible for student appeals to be family members. I seriously hope COCA investigates this.
 
@Goro Out of curiosity how does LCME accreditation differ from COCA? Is it actually less rigorous?
LCME is indeed more rigorous. For starters, they require those pesky research things, like labs.

That's sarcasm for those of you who don't understand it.

I believe that the LCM e website has accreditation requirements for MD schools
 
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I'll see me is indeed more rigorous. For starters, they require those pesky research things. That's sarcasm for those of you who don't understand it
Not following, can you edit your post (auto-correct ?) and be more direct ?
 
@Goro Out of curiosity how does LCME accreditation differ from COCA? Is it actually less rigorous?
LCME accreditation is significantly more rigorous than COCA. If you do a side-by-side comparison of their respective standards they don't look all that different, but the expectations of the LCME are higher in almost every domain. COCA will let you open a tuition-dependent school with a large class size, few faculty, modest financial resources, a passive-learning curriculum, few research opportunities, and (this is key) marginal clinical training opportunities. The LCME won't.

There are, of course, reputable DO schools that go well beyond COCA's basic requirements and offer an education comparable to what the LCME would stipulate. But there are also DO schools that run very questionable operations, and are allowed to do so. There is perpetual discussion on this topic in the DO forum, in particular the number of new schools and new branch campuses.
 
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Just curious, if someone fails a first semester block per say at a US DO school, could this student withdraw and reapply to an MD school? There are so many students that withdraw or are dismissed from the DO schools from what I am reading all over sdn, it is scary. Does this mean their dream of becoming a physician is done and over?
 
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Just curious, if someone fails a first semester block per say at a US DO school, could this student withdraw and reapply to an MD school? There are so many students that withdraw or are dismissed from the DO schools from what I am ready all over sdn it is scary. Does this mean their dream of becoming a physician is done and over?
Yes, you can retake the MCAT and reapply MD if you withdraw from a DO school. It is an uphill battle for sure but was done before. Other than DO students being academically weaker, premeds seriously underestimate what a big time sink OMM is. I met several people in real life and online that were either remediating that class, repeating the entire the year, or dismissed because of it.
 
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Yes, you can retake the MCAT and reapply MD if you withdraw from a DO school. It is an uphill battle for sure but was done before. Other than DO students being academically weaker, premeds seriously underestimate what a big time sink OMM is. I met several people in real life and online that were either remediating that class, repeating the entire the year, or dismissed because of it.
So even if student fails per say the very first block Anatomy, they still have a chance at a US MD school?
 
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So even if student fails per say the very first block Anatomy, they still have a chance at a US MD school?
I want to believe some school will give them a second chance. Failing a single class in the first block should not lead to dismissal period. Even Caribbean schools are more forgiving.
 
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Just curious, if someone fails a first semester block per say at a US DO school, could this student withdraw and reapply to an MD school? There are so many students that withdraw or are dismissed from the DO schools from what I am reading all over sdn, it is scary. Does this mean their dream of becoming a physician is done and over?
Dismissing someone for a single course failure is egregious. Having said that, I don't see why an MD school would take a chance on someone who failed first semester block. How many courses and by how much?. Now, if only OMM and other grades are good, then that might be different.Although I don't know how PDs would view failing the course that distinctively makes you a DO when reviewing candidate for their programs. Many fail or remediate OMM.because they listen to bad advice on SDN. OMM is not a huge time sink and has lots of crossover with anatomy.and H & P. So it's not a complete waste of time. Just need to pass. Students get in trouble because they don't want to learn OMM and are in DO school, not because of their desire to be a DO, but because their stats weren't good enough to get into an MD school. My school took it seriously. Now a failure there, if not by a lot, one would have to pass a remediation exam between semesters. Fail that, take a remediation course over the summer. Fail that, possible dismissal and possibly repeat the year.
 
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Dismissing someone for a single course failure is egregious. Having said that, I don't see why an MD school would take a chance on someone who failed first semester block. How many courses and by how much?. Now, if only OMM and other grades are good, then that might be different.Although I don't know how PDs would view failing the course that distinctively makes you a DO when reviewing candidate for their programs. Many fail or remediate OMM.because they listen to bad advice on SDN. OMM is not a huge time sink and has lots of crossover with anatomy.and H & P. So it's not a complete waste of time. Just need to pass. Students get in trouble because they don't want to learn OMM and are in DO school, not because of their desire to be a DO, but because their stats weren't good enough to get into an MD school. My school took it seriously. Now a failure there, if not by a lot, one would have to pass a remediation exam between semesters. Fail that, take a remediation course over the summer. Fail that, possible dismissal and possibly repeat the year.
What if the student had something going on and the school didn't let them take a leave of absence? That is a lot of remediation chances. Our school handbook says if you fail one class you can face possible dismissal. If they allow you to remediate, you get no help just a cumulative exam five days later and if you fail that they dismiss you. So one bad week and you may find yourself thousands of dollars in debt and out of school.
 
What if the student had something going on and the school didn't let them take a leave of absence? That is a lot of remediation chances. Our school handbook says if you fail one class you can face possible dismissal. If they allow you to remediate, you get no help just a cumulative exam five days later and if you fail that they dismiss you. So one bad week and you may find yourself thousands of dollars in debt and out of school.
This really isn't the concern of the MD school. In 99% of cases being dismissed from a school means your career is over.
 
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Reading more on the topic of failing a first block beyond remediation, do schools allow to continue taking the next blocks following the failed one (Anatomy per se) or students have to leave and come back the following Summer/Fall and restart from scratch? Can’t imagine the amount of stress this causes students. Med school curriculum and expectation for students to pass the entire Anatomy and other courses in 6-7 weeks is not “normal”. Why rush the program and no create a solid semester or year spread curriculum as it was in undergrad?
 
What if the student had something going on and the school didn't let them take a leave of absence? That is a lot of remediation chances. Our school handbook says if you fail one class you can face possible dismissal. If they allow you to remediate, you get no help just a cumulative exam five days later and if you fail that they dismiss you. So one bad week and you may find yourself thousands of dollars in debt and out of school.
Med schools have plenty of qualified applicants to choose from. Accepting a student after they failed a semester block would be considered risky. I suppose it has happened, but would be an extremely unusual circumstance. If you as an applicant are explaining, you're losing. How does one convince the new school they won't flunk the first semester there? If someone chooses to enroll at such a school, they pay their money and take their chances. Bottom line at that place, don't flunk.
 
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Med schools have plenty of qualified applicants to choose from. Accepting a student after they failed a semester block would be considered risky. I suppose it has happened, but would be an extremely unusual circumstance. If you as an applicant are explaining, you're losing. How does one convince the new school they won't flunk the first semester there? If someone chooses to enroll at such a school, they pay their money and take their chances. Bottom line at that place, don't flunk.
Some DO schools have trouble filling their class. I think that passing all classes but one (especially something like OMM) is a good indicator that the student is capable of succeeding the second time around. I understand the urge to blame the student but sometimes there are extenuating circumstances and three are schools who would rather have the student withdraw than work with them. These things usually don't happen at MD schools. My friend at the state MD wasn't doing well. The school let them take time off and once they returned they performed at the top of the class and matched into a T10. Now had they gone to a DO school, they might have been dismissed. I believe people should have second chances.
 
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And life should be fair, but it isn't. My former DO school had about a 3% rate of withdrawl/ dismissal and that is quite consistent with MD schools. At least at my wife's med school. About half left for academics and half just because medicine wasn't for them. Newer schools have always been discouraged on SDN because faculty and curriculum take a few years to get up to speed and you might not want to be part of their learning curve. If a new school is your only acceptance, then make your choice. Attend or gap year. Thr majority of medical schools don't dismiss a student for a course failure, but if you fail 4 of the 5 courses that block, they reserve the right. I'm not condoning the practice you present, as there are always 3 sides to any story. Your side, my side, and the truth. Some people won't give up, even with failures and remediation. Now they have 3 yrs tuition and can't pass boards. It happens, I've seen it. Does the school bear some responsibility for stringing them along? Sometimes tuition in the School of Life is expensive.
 
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And life should be fair, but it isn't. My former DO school had about a 3% rate of withdrawl/ dismissal and that is quite consistent with MD schools. At least at my wife's med school. About half left for academics and half just because medicine wasn't for them. Newer schools have always been discouraged on SDN because faculty and curriculum take a few years to get up to speed and you might not want to be part of their learning curve. If a new school is your only acceptance, then make your choice. Attend or gap year. Thr majority of medical schools don't dismiss a student for a course failure, but if you fail 4 of the 5 courses that block, they reserve the right. I'm not condoning the practice you present, as there are always 3 sides to any story. Your side, my side, and the truth. Some people won't give up, even with failures and remediation. Now they have 3 yrs tuition and can't pass boards. It happens, I've seen it. Does the school bear some responsibility for stringing them along? Sometimes tuition in the School of Life is expensive.
This is exactly my point. This happens too frequently at DO programs. Life not being fair is not a reason to do nothing about it. COCA needs to rise to LCME standards and offer some student protections. Everyone on SDN bashes Caribbean schools, but what's the difference between them and predatory DO schools. DO programs report their attrition per year. MD programs report it per class. A 3% attrition reported at a DO program would be 10-12% at the MD school.
 
Just curious, if someone fails a first semester block per say at a US DO school, could this student withdraw and reapply to an MD school? There are so many students that withdraw or are dismissed from the DO schools from what I am reading all over sdn, it is scary. Does this mean their dream of becoming a physician is done and over?
Yup. The "matriculation at other med schools?" Q on the primary only seems to apply for AMCAS and MD schools.

But why would someone who failed out of a DO school necessarily do better at an MD school? Just a caveat.

There are so many students that withdraw or are dismissed from the DO schools from what I am reading all over sdn, it is scary.
Classic case of sample bias.
 
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I disagree. I believe that the vast majority of medical schools are interested in their students succeeding and going on to do great things. The poll for this thread reflects that almost 85% of those who responded think their school does at least an average job with "supportiveness." I know a bunch of folks at different schools and the consensus is similar to the poll above.

Where does your view come from and why the reference to Pitt ?
These for profit do schools have to keep their stats up
 
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This is exactly my point. This happens too frequently at DO programs. Life not being fair is not a reason to do nothing about it. COCA needs to rise to LCME standards and offer some student protections. Everyone on SDN bashes Caribbean schools, but what's the difference between them and predatory DO schools. DO programs report their attrition per year. MD programs report it per class. A 3% attrition reported at a DO program would be 10-12% at the MD school.
Very few DO schools would remain open under LCME standards.
 
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I think that passing all classes but one (especially something like OMM) is a good indicator that the student is capable of succeeding the second time around.
If I understand this correctly, we're talking about a hypothetical student whose application was so subpar that they could only get into a predatory DO school, and is then dismissed from said DO school for failing OMT. What part of this scenario is reassuring to MD schools, again?

This is exactly my point. This happens too frequently at DO programs. Life not being fair is not a reason to do nothing about it. COCA needs to rise to LCME standards and offer some student protections. Everyone on SDN bashes Caribbean schools, but what's the difference between them and predatory DO schools. DO programs report their attrition per year. MD programs report it per class. A 3% attrition reported at a DO program would be 10-12% at the MD school.
Medical school attrition does not happen uniformly - it's more concentrated in years 1 and 2.

I do think an effort to reform COCA would be worthy, although probably difficult to organize.
 
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If I understand this correctly, we're talking about a hypothetical student whose application was so subpar that they could only get into a predatory DO school, and is then dismissed from said DO school for failing OMT. What part of this scenario is reassuring to MD schools, again?
You would be surprised, but this was an "average" DO program. What if that student significantly improved their stats and is now above the average MD student matriculant and has faculty at that medical school vouching for them? Sometimes the only difference between a predatory DO program and a state MD is 5 points on the MCAT.
 
Failing a class and subsequent remediation would be pretty bad at an MD school—not necessarily dismissal-worthy, but you would probably have to repeat the entire year and/or take a year-long LOA.

Most DO students (rightfully) consider OMM to be a joke, and yet a vast majority of them pass OMM without difficulty. It’s not an intellectually demanding class; you just have to memorize some simple algorithms and tables. I imagine you didn’t put any effort into it at all.

DO school administrators are money-hungry and certainly don’t want to lose tuition revenue by wantonly booting students out. DO schools have higher attrition rates than MD schools, but that’s likely at least partly attributable to the fact that incoming DO students are, on average, of a lower academic caliber than their MD peers.
 
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You would be surprised, but this was an "average" DO program. What if that student significantly improved their stats and is now above the average MD student matriculant and has faculty at that medical school vouching for them? Sometimes the only difference between a predatory DO program and a state MD is 5 points on the MCAT.
Getting into MD school is much more than just the MCAT.
 
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Yup. The "matriculation at other med schools?" Q on the primary only seems to apply for AMCAS and MD schools.

But why would someone who failed out of a DO school necessarily do better at an MD school? Just a caveat.

There are so many students that withdraw or are dismissed from the DO schools from what I am reading all over sdn, it is scary.
Classic case of sample bias.
Better to go to midlevel school. Not much involuntary attrition there.
 
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I think it also depends on specific school. So far, my exams have been easier than the ones I took in undergrad but we have all MCQ based exams. But I’ve heard schools like Penn state have essay exams. These sound brutal as you really have to know the material in and out which is tough given the sheer volume
 
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Getting into MD school is much more than just the MCAT.
So is getting into DO school. The major difference between MD and DO matriculant in 99% of the cases is MCAT. Also please be respectful to other professions.
 
You would be surprised, but this was an "average" DO program.
Not surprised at all.

What if that student significantly improved their stats and is now above the average MD student matriculant and has faculty at that medical school vouching for them? Sometimes the only difference between a predatory DO program and a state MD is 5 points on the MCAT.
What if what if what if? Just make a plan and move forward.
 
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So is getting into DO school. The major difference between MD and DO matriculant in 99% of the cases is MCAT. Also please be respectful to other professions.
Are you being respectful to the school that dismissed you for substandard knowledge?
 
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Are you being respectful to the school that dismissed you for substandard knowledge?
This post is about helping others who find themselves in a situation I don't wish upon anyone. I'm a real person who had a personal situation and my school worked against me and left me thousands of dollars in debt. Imagine getting cancer and your school won't let you take a break. This post is not about midlevels. None of the PA/NPs I worked with ever pretended to be a physician, but this is off topic.
 
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I do think an effort to reform COCA would be worthy, although probably difficult to organize.

Having been through multiple COCA site visits, the team who actually visits a school largely does a good job "investigating" like what was described with LCME earlier in this thread. However, application and site visit fees are quite hefty, and the COCA staff wouldn't want to miss out on any funds by writing clear standards and consistently requiring them to be met. Because of this, as with most things, faculty and administration are largely at odds because one group is focused on providing the best education possible and one is focused on ensuring the money train keeps flowing. Both are required for a successful operation, but it's easy to tell when the pendulum swings too far one way or the other.
 
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How many DO schools would even meet LCME standards? Id imagine the flagships but certainly not the most.
That's a great question! Mine would, the original ones would, probably another 5 to 10: is my guess. The newest ones, and the for-profits would be shut down immediately
 
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That's a great question! Mine would, the original ones would, probably another 5 to 10: is my guess. The newest ones, and the for-profits would be shut down immediately
Just curious, based on what would these schools be shut down? Research? Rotation quality? I feel like most other things can be fixed, and likely would be if it became a requirement.
 
Just curious, based on what would these schools be shut down? Research? Rotation quality? I feel like most other things can be fixed, and likely would be if it became a requirement.
First and foremost, the clinical rotation, and quality of clinical education.

I would have to take a look at lcme requirements to really get an idea of where the lacking factors are for the osteopathic schools
 
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First and foremost, the clinical rotation, and quality of clinical education.

I would have to take a look at lcme requirements to really get an idea of where the lacking factors are for the osteopathic schools
Most DO schools have some good rotations and some bad rotations. I wonder if they would be able to survive if they decreased their class size and got rid of the bad rotations, but then could they survive the decreased revenue with less tuition money? I know this is purely hypothetical, so sorry to down this rabbit hole.
 
Most DO schools have some good rotations and some bad rotations. I wonder if they would be able to survive if they decreased their class size and got rid of the bad rotations, but then could they survive the decreased revenue with less tuition money? I know this is purely hypothetical, so sorry to down this rabbit hole.
They could, especially those with mega class sizes.
 
As a 3rd year DO student - yes, I agree that DO schools, on average, lack the rigorous structure of clinical education that the average MD school has. However, I would also argue the following caveats:

1) This is a much larger issue for newer DO schools

2) Many established DO physicians are very passionate about what they do and they love teaching 3rd year DO medical students (this is, in essence, the same as #1 because newer schools lack established alumni).

3) DO students have the opportunity of doing 4th year rotations at MD schools to develop solid skills before residency. This is, of course, dependent on the student doing something meaningful with 4th year as opposed to treating 4th year as a vacation.

4) We are still wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy ahead of Caribbean MD schools
 
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Just curious, based on what would these schools be shut down? Research? Rotation quality? I feel like most other things can be fixed, and likely would be if it became a requirement.
A few things a marginal DO school would have to do in order to approach LCME standards:
- Shrink class size to improve education quality per student (harms finances)
- Adopt active/self-directed learning methods (increases demands on both faculty and facilities)
- Reduce dependence on tuition revenue by bringing up other streams (parent institution, clinical revenue, philanthropy)
- Affiliate with a clinical partner that can provide substantial inpatient experience and access to GME programs

I think these alone would sink quite a few. And they're just the tip of the proverbial iceberg.
 
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