Do medical schools consider where you went for undergrad?

[1forrest1]

Median GPAs at med schools would suggest otherwise. What I'm saying is school name counts when you have high stats.

how much though? i.e does someone who's orm from a state school with good ecs have a shot


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Goro]

how much though? i.e does someone who's orm from a state school with good ecs have a shot


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

Yes.

 

[enchantediris]

I realize that but that doesn't tell the whole story. For one thing, people mix up the terms scholarships and grants all the time. So, saying that a student received 80-100% scholarship to school X wouldn't necessarily tell the adcoms that most or all of that aid was merit based or need-based. And, it wouldn't tell the adcoms that the student had to choose that school because his family couldn't afford Columbia where he was also accepted, but without much or any aid.

Adcoms like LizzyM have said in the past that they can put 2 and 2 together about choosing one school over another due to scholarships. Also, as I mentioned before, you can specify the merit scholarship in the Awards section.

 

[mwsapphire]

I just think you're UGrad name shouldn't be an insurmountable barrier- a lot of people aren't as studious in HS because they didn't even know they wanted to be a docs, and I just don't think that should follow them for the rest of their careers, you know? I think the same for people who screw up the first year or two of college.
Also , grade trends being as important as UGrad GPA is something I agree with. You need to show you can handle med school, but also that you can adapt when things get harder.
Disclaimer- I've always wanted to be a doc but ended up at a mid-tier state school, so you know. Just my two cents.

 

[PreMedMissteps]

It's a phenomenon on paper that schools don't discriminate on UG institutions. I bet at the very least, there is a unconscious bias from adcoms on UG schools. But the schools that do strongly unconsciously or consciously discriminate on UG are more than likely t20s or t10s so it doesn't even apply to most of the applicant pool anyways.

PS I go to a local state school so not sure what you're all perked up about @PreMedMissteps. I speak the truth. State schools might as well be party schools that accept anyone who gave half an effort in high school.

Besides, aren't you URM? You should be fine going to a state school (hell, even DeVry) unlike me who will have to do exceptional for even a second glance.

I'm white and I'm not a student.

 

[PreMedMissteps]

Adcoms like LizzyM have said in the past that they can put 2 and 2 together about choosing one school over another due to scholarships. Also, as I mentioned before, you can specify the merit scholarship in the Awards section.

Yes you can specify merit scholarships in the awards section, but an adcom can't then infer that this student was also accepted to JHU, Columbia, Harvard or wherever, because nothing indicates that the student ever applied to those schools. The best an adcom can infer is that the student was chasing merit, either because family couldn't afford a pricier school, or the student is saving his college fund or parent contribution for med school.

 

[efle]

Yes you can specify merit scholarships in the awards section, but an adcom can't then infer that this student was also accepted to JHU, Columbia, Harvard or wherever, because nothing indicates that the student ever applied to those schools. The best an adcom can infer is that the student was chasing merit, either because family couldn't afford a pricier school, or the student is saving his college fund or parent contribution for med school.

Eh, you can pretty safely infer that if someone is rocking a high LizzyM out of an unknown school and they paid for it mostly with merit award, they could have gone somewhere well known, though sure you can't know the specific names they turned down. Merit awards are for recruitment after all. You don't throw your full rides at kids that would be similar to a typical admit. You use that money to pull in the top 20 candidates that would otherwise not matriculate to you.

 

[fldoctorgirl]

I feel like this is a hard question to answer..at the end of the day, adcoms are humans too and some of them will have biases towards certain schools and others won't. Let your app speak for itself, and you will end up where you're supposed to be.

I turned down offers to go to bigger, more well-known, "prestigious" schools to attend a state school that gave me an attractive scholarship. Maybe adcoms would give me a better look if I had "3.8 GPA from Prestigious School", but I personally don't want to get into med school because of the name of my school. I want to get in because of my own merits.

Just my two cents.

 

[efle]

^ The people that go the state-for-free route, and then are standout badasses there are the real winners. They'll end up getting the same awesome MD options alongside people with Ivy pedigrees, but at the end will have tens of thousands less debt.

 

[PreMedMissteps]

Eh, you can pretty safely infer that if someone is rocking a high LizzyM out of an unknown school and they paid for it mostly with merit award, they could have gone somewhere well known, though sure you can't know the specific names they turned down. Merit awards are for recruitment after all. You don't throw your full rides at kids that would be similar to a typical admit. You use that money to pull in the top 20 candidates that would otherwise not matriculate to you.

Absolutely. The lower ranked (not necessarily unknown) schools are poaching with merit. The recipients' test scores and GPAs are usually well-within that upper quartile of the school for and/or are NMFs being awarded the college's big NMF pkg.

So an adcom who sees that Student X went to Oklahoma and lists being a NMF and NMF merit award recipient, yes they can conclude that this was a top high school student chasing merit. Are people suggesting that that student then gets viewed as if he went to a top undergrad?

 

[efle]

Absolutely. The lower ranked (not necessarily unknown) schools are poaching with merit. The recipients' test scores and GPAs are usually well-within that upper quartile of the school for and/or are NMFs being awarded the college's big NMF pkg.

So an adcom who sees that Student X went to Oklahoma and lists being a NMF and NMF merit award recipient, yes they can conclude that this was a top high school student chasing merit. Are people suggesting that that student then gets viewed as if he went to a top undergrad?

I don't think the idea is that they now view the GPA the same as if it was earned against the competition at a Hopkins or Cornell type undergrad. It's just that the adcom has a moment of wondering "Why is this 80 LizzyM attending a flyover public school?" and seeing that merit $$ makes them go "oh, because money"

Again though, I think SDN overhypes the amount of bias one way or the other. The reason U of Flyover State grads are rare at Hopkins or Harvard or Penn is because UFS grads rarely hit top couple percent on the MCAT, imo. The handful of SDN peeps that had fantastic scores coming from various public programs (like gettheleadout, or narmerguy, or elcapone) all landed top 10 admits. It's largely just that top MD level apps are more common at the top undergrads.

 

[Professional Student]

I don't think the idea is that they now view the GPA the same as if it was earned against the competition at a Hopkins or Cornell type undergrad. It's just that the adcom has a moment of wondering "Why is this 80 LizzyM attending a flyover public school?" and seeing that merit $$ makes them go "oh, because money"

Again though, I think SDN overhypes the amount of bias one way or the other. The reason U of Flyover State grads are rare at Hopkins or Harvard or Penn is because UFS grads rarely hit top couple percent on the MCAT, imo. The handful of SDN peeps that had fantastic scores coming from various public programs (like gettheleadout, or narmerguy, or elcapone) all landed top 10 admits. It's largely just that top MD level apps are more common at the top undergrads.

Also many U of Flyover State students that do make top scores on the MCAT just don't care to pursue the top programs in the nation. Why worry about all of the extra financial strain and personal stress that comes with pursuing a top 20 when MD=MD and all you want to do is practice in your own state anyway? I have known several kids who scored 512+ on the MCAT and the only school they applied to is U of Oklahoma (median 507) because their dream career is to go to school and practice in the same area that all of their friends and family live. For the same reason you see many applicants posting about how they absolutely don't want to go to school in Omaha or Iowa City of Hannover, kids here don't want to go to school in NYC, Baltimore, Boston, or Philadelphia.

EDIT: I personally am gunning for Duke or Mayo, but I still very much understand the thought process of my peers and I myself will most likely eventually return to practice in OK no matter where I go to school.

 

[PreMedMissteps]

Also many U of Flyover State students that do make top scores on the MCAT just don't care to pursue the top programs in the nation. Why worry about all of the extra financial strain and personal stress that comes with pursuing a top 20 when MD=MD and all you want to do is practice in your own state anyway? I have known several kids who scored 512+ on the MCAT and the only school they applied to is U of Oklahoma (median 507) because their dream career is to go to school and practice in the same area that all of their friends and family live. For the same reason you see many applicants posting about how they absolutely don't want to go to school in Omaha or Iowa City of Hannover, kids here don't want to go to school in NYC, Baltimore, Boston, or Philadelphia.

EDIT: I personally am gunning for Duke or Mayo, but I still very much understand the thought process of my peers and I myself will most likely eventually return to practice in OK no matter where I go to school.

Very true. And really, if their best instate med school is well-ranked (which often means it has MSTP), then opportunities are there. A top quartile MS4 with very good/top step scores can get into a top residency, if that's desired. In the end, IMHO, it's the residency that can matter most, not the US MD school.

 

[PreMedMissteps]

Undergrad name matters to some med schools far more than others. See link in my signature to AAMC survey, where private med schools rated undergrad selectivity as highly important.

Yes, we've seen that but are we reading too much into that? I've seen people interpret that to mean that private SOMs have a preference for those attending top 25ish schools.

Maybe they just mean that they think it's "highly important" that students come from schools that don't have a 80+% admit rate. Maybe they think that attending schools like Santa Clara, Texas A&M or VT as being selective enough.

Maybe they just mean that they're more cautious with applicants coming from directionals like southeastern state Univ that accepts every warm body and no adcom has ever heard about. State meds wouldn't need to be as cautious because they know their own state's directionals.

 

[DBC03]

Keep in mind that if you turned down a prestigious school, don't just assume that you could have easily gotten a 3.8/3.9 there and instead you're stuck with the same GPA from your state school. There's a reason that applicants applying from prestigious schools have lower GPAs - the course work is hard and they are competing against students who are just as smart if not smarter and twice as driven. If your classes are curved, then you are screwed unless you happen to be the absolute smartest person that got in (and that's doubtful). There may be a real advantage to going to a solid state school and getting a high GPA in the end. It's impossible to play the "what if" game. You could be that 3.9 stand out student from UState who would have been a 3.5 from UIvy. I almost guarantee that the 3.9 student from the state school (assuming same MCAT) would win in this situation. That is the frustration that students feel when they attend grade deflating schools. I've gone to both. I have a 3.3 from one and a nearly 4.0 from the other. The difficulty, course work, and grading is incomparable. It's impossible to equate the two.

 

[PreMedMissteps]

they are competing against students who are just as smart if not smarter and twice as driven

Yes, and that's why it can be a risk to attend a top ranked school as a premed who is certain that they want to go to med school. I recall a premed who first attended a non-flagship state school that was still known to be strong in the sciences. The student had a 4.0 his first year, taking a year of chem and bio, calculus, and other courses. He was convinced that med schools would be more impressed if he graduated from Vanderbilt, so he transferred. His year at Vandy was a disaster with C- in Ochem I and II and C's in physics. He may not have gotten A's in all of those courses if he had stayed at his previous good school, but he probably would not have gotten less than a B. At Vanderbilt, his premed prereq courses were loaded with Vals and Sals, NMFs, and 99 percentile test scorers.

 

[Lucca]

Cesspool state schools? Really?

Moving on....you're forgetting that med schools want diversity and that's not just ethnic diversity. A top med seating only applicants from top 10-20 colleges wouldn't probably end up with a very diverse group.

There's a reason why Ivy colleges long moved away from the old way of their feeder prep schools sending them lists of who will be matriculating at their schools. The top meds don't want that situation either.

The Making of a Harvard Feeder School | News | The Harvard Crimson

The Feeder School Advantage: Making “Insider Knowledge” Accessible to All | Opinion | The Harvard Crimson


Meanwhile in MD/PhD land

Data: Elite School Bias in MD/PhD Admissions

 

[Mad Jack]

Hey guys! I've looked around for some opinions about this topic but haven't been able to find too many thoughts.

I will be graduating from an ivy league school this year, which is known to be very hard and to grade deflate. I was wondering if this has any impact during the application cycle. Do medical schools take into account the rigor of some schools versus others and the fact that some schools deflate grades more than others? For instance, all else being equal, would a 3.6 from my university be equated to say, a 3.8 from a state school in ADCOM's eyes? Or do they purely care about a higher number? I would have to imagine it matters at least a little but do correct me if I'm wrong. Any thoughts appreciated as I expect this will impact where I end up applying!

It matters. You're better off with a 3.5 from Harvard than a 3.95 from a no-name state school. These returns slowly diminish outside of the top 10 through the top 20, then rapidly diminish thereafter.

 

[The Broccoli Industry]

Sure a 4.0 state school GPA might be better than a 3.5 Ivy, but what if the 4.0 state school student had the potential to get a 4.0 at the Ivy? Certainly the 4.0 Ivy would be looked upon much more favorably because it shows the student was able to rise to the top amongst a group of incredibly smart and driven students as opposed to mediocre state school students.

We always talk about how the Top 10 med schools have more than enough high stat applicants to fill their seats. In that case do you think they'll want to fill their seat with a 4.0 from UPodunk or 4.0 from Cornell or Hopkins, where the 4.0 means something much more significant? Think about this from your POV, would you want a student in your med school who was #1 amongst a group of highly competitive, driven and smart premeds or #1 amongst a group of average, mediocre premeds.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[aldol16]

It is most likely the case that a student with a slightly lower GPA from a tough, prestigious program is not equal in all other aspects than a student with the higher GPA from the public state school (don't talk about exceptions like UMich or Berkeley). You get more opportunities at the more prestigious program and there is better structural support for applying to the top medical schools because they are used to having many students admitted to top programs every year. The advisers are more tuned to what makes somebody from their school competitive at the top programs whereas advisers at the public state schools aren't used to having students get into top schools and therefore aren't as familiar with those programs. You also get more networking opportunities at the top schools, which translates into better connections, which translates into having an easier time getting a position you want doing what you want. For example, I know of alumni physician databases that some pre-med advising offices keep that show alumni physicians who are willing to let premed students shadow them. Sending an email to a doctor's alumni address asking "Hey, I'm a student at your alma mater and want to shadow you" is way easier and infinitely higher yielding than cold-calling people as some people on here are forced to do. Similarly, these connections lead to more opportunities to pursue the ECs you want, where you want, and how you want. There is a lot of money at these places that the school just hands out if you have a good proposal for what you want to do over the summer, for example, studying the health infrastructure of a city in South Africa.

In terms of academics, the person at the prestigious program is getting a more rigorous education and is having to compete with the top students across the country. You bet your ass that staying at the top of the distribution is harder. But even those in the middle of the distribution end up with better MCAT scores than those in the middle of the distribution at state schools because they got a more rigorous education. The point of measuring premeds' academics at the top medical schools (except those who love and prioritize stats) is to see if they can succeed and thrive at the medical school. A guy with a 3.6 and 520 MCAT from Harvard is going to be able to perform just as well as someone with a 4.0 and 520 MCAT from a state school. But the student from Harvard is also more likely to have had more interesting experiences and that's important for these places.

People don't like hearing this but advantages just build on each other. A small leg up in high schools leads to attending a better school which is an advantage. Attending a better school gives you more opportunities which is an even bigger advantage for medical school. Then going to a good medical school is an even advantage when it comes time to applying for residencies. This doesn't mean that someone outside the system can't entire this pipeline at any stage - they can. It just means that it's harder to do so given that you don't have the advantages that someone else does. I think this system of advantages is exceedingly fair. A kid who busts his ass in high school deserves getting an advantage for that. It's a small advantage but an advantage nonetheless.

 

[PreMedMissteps]

The Making of a Harvard Feeder School | News | The Harvard Crimson

The Feeder School Advantage: Making “Insider Knowledge” Accessible to All | Opinion | The Harvard Crimson


Meanwhile in MD/PhD land

Data: Elite School Bias in MD/PhD Admissions

If I'm reading the above correctly from a small tablet and no glasses, it still appears that at least 68% of Harvard's freshman class came from non-feeder schools...presumably here and there across the nation.

The MSTP students, first of all, are a rather small cohort, comparatively, and are generally an elite group all by themselves. No surprise that most might come from top undergrads, for a variety of reasons, including the likelihood that their could be better advising/support for a prospective MD/PhD

Many rank and file premeds have never even heard of MD/PhD MSTP, at least not early enough for them to have adequately prepared to be a viable candidate.

Furthermore, I'm not sure that the same "personality and diversity expectations" exist for MD/PhD students as there would be for simply MD. It matters more to the general population that the doctors that they're more likely to see be a more diverse group...ethnically, geographically, personal backgrounds, etc.

 

[Lucca]

If I'm reading the above correctly from a small tablet and no glasses, it still appears that at least 68% of Harvard's freshman class came from non-feeder schools...presumably here and there across the nation.

The MSTP students, first of all, are a rather small cohort, comparatively, and are generally an elite group all by themselves. No surprise that most might come from top undergrads, for a variety of reasons, including the likelihood that their could be better advising/support for a prospective MD/PhD

Many rank and file premeds have never even heard of MD/PhD MSTP, at least not early enough for them to have adequately prepared to be a viable candidate.

Furthermore, I'm not sure that the same "personality and diversity expectations" exist for MD/PhD students as there would be for simply MD. It matters more to the general population that the doctors that they're more likely to see be a more diverse group...ethnically, geographically, personal backgrounds, etc.

32% of Harvard freshmen come from 11% of high schools while 78% of high schools only send one kid. That is a HUGE bias.


Those statistics were taken using 8 years of aggregated data so n>100 for each school, not just looking at one cohort at a time.

Id be happy to do the same graphs up if someone can point me to the directories of MD classes (or send them by PM).

I will bet a lot of money that at the top 10 medical schools, 9/10 have at least 50% of the class coming from 20 or fewer schools.

 

[aldol16]

If I'm reading the above correctly from a small tablet and no glasses, it still appears that at least 68% of Harvard's freshman class came from non-feeder schools...presumably here and there across the nation.

The MSTP students, first of all, are a rather small cohort, comparatively, and are generally an elite group all by themselves. No surprise that most might come from top undergrads, for a variety of reasons, including the likelihood that their could be better advising/support for a prospective MD/PhD

Many rank and file premeds have never even heard of MD/PhD MSTP, at least not early enough for them to have adequately prepared to be a viable candidate.

Furthermore, I'm not sure that the same "personality and diversity expectations" exist for MD/PhD students as there would be for simply MD. It matters more to the general population that the doctors that they're more likely to see be a more diverse group...ethnically, geographically, personal backgrounds, etc.

1 out of 3 students from a "feeder" school is quite a lot - especially if you consider that only 1 in 10 schools is considered a "feeder" on there. Basically, Harvard students are three, almost four, times more likely to come from feeder schools than you would expect.

The elite school bias in MD/PhD admissions more likely has to do with the fact that PhD programs care a lot more about undergraduate prestige than MD programs. Basically, in PhD admissions, you look for 1) strong research, which is more likely if you come from a top research school 2) prestige of the PI you worked for, which is also more likely at a top school and 3) prestige of the school you came from. Roughly in that order.

I'm also pretty sure that diversity requirements exist for MSTP programs. Since they're government-funded, it's actually more likely that they'll have more stringent diversity requirements than MD programs.

 

[CommyO]

It matters. You're better off with a 3.5 from Harvard than a 3.95 from a no-name state school. These returns slowly diminish outside of the top 10 through the top 20, then rapidly diminish thereafter.

That's what I said too. t10-t20s are the schools that care more about ivy UGs. That is not to say that other schools don't care about UG at all either.

Honestly if you get a 3.5 at an Ivy and do average on the MCAT, I'm sure some adcoms will recognize that you have the name-brand quality; compared to Joe Blow who got a 3.9 at a state school.

Who wouldn't want to interview someone who want to HYP? @DBC03

 

[DBC03]

That's what I said too. t10-t20s are the schools that care more about ivy UGs. That is not to say that other schools don't care about UG at all either.

Honestly if you get a 3.5 at an Ivy and do average on the MCAT, I'm sure some adcoms will recognize that you have the name-brand quality; compared to Joe Blow who got a 3.9 at a state school.

Who wouldn't want to interview someone who want to HYP? @DBC03

As a HYP Grad, I can confirm that quite a few friends who were able to get into Duke, Harvard, and/or Stanford with average GPAs (3.5) and unspectacular MCAT scores had a very difficult time getting into Florida schools. We're talking no interviews at places like USF or UF (Depending on the person). So it appears that while elite private med schools may take pedigree into account (and may have a track record of admitting HYP students with average GPAs that do quite well in med school), many state schools couldn't care less and will interview the 3.9 UState grad before the 3.5 HYP grad.

This is my guess and n<10, so it's not exactly a scientific observation.

 

[Mad Jack]

That's what I said too. t10-t20s are the schools that care more about ivy UGs. That is not to say that other schools don't care about UG at all either.

Honestly if you get a 3.5 at an Ivy and do average on the MCAT, I'm sure some adcoms will recognize that you have the name-brand quality; compared to Joe Blow who got a 3.9 at a state school.

Who wouldn't want to interview someone who want to HYP? @DBC03

I meant the other way around- top undergrads matter, but only the highest level undergraduate degrees offer a great benefit. Outside of about the best twenty or so UGs, there isn't a lot of advantage and it will come down more to your record and what program you attended within your given school more than your degree itself.

All medical schools value prestigious degree holders to some extent.

 

[CommyO]

I meant the other way around- top undergrads matter, but only the highest level undergraduate degrees offer a great benefit. Outside of about the best twenty or so UGs, there isn't a lot of advantage and it will come down more to your record and what program you attended within your given school more than your degree itself.

All medical schools value prestigious degree holders to some extent.

Fair enough, I agree.

 

[CommyO]

As a HYP Grad, I can confirm that quite a few friends who were able to get into Duke, Harvard, and/or Stanford with average GPAs (3.5) and unspectacular MCAT scores had a very difficult time getting into Florida schools. We're talking no interviews at places like USF or UF (Depending on the person). So it appears that while elite private med schools may take pedigree into account (and may have a track record of admitting HYP students with average GPAs that do quite well in med school), many state schools couldn't care less and will interview the 3.9 UState grad before the 3.5 HYP grad.

This is my guess and n<10, so it's not exactly a scientific observation.

Interesting. Thanks for the perspective. I was thinking along the lines of a rockstar (HYP grad) in a small town (not t20 school). Or as @Goro said, a well known product.

 

[aldol16]

As a HYP Grad, I can confirm that quite a few friends who were able to get into Duke, Harvard, and/or Stanford with average GPAs (3.5) and unspectacular MCAT scores had a very difficult time getting into Florida schools. We're talking no interviews at places like USF or UF (Depending on the person). So it appears that while elite private med schools may take pedigree into account (and may have a track record of admitting HYP students with average GPAs that do quite well in med school), many state schools couldn't care less and will interview the 3.9 UState grad before the 3.5 HYP grad.

My experience as well.

 

[efle]

As a HYP Grad, I can confirm that quite a few friends who were able to get into Duke, Harvard, and/or Stanford with average GPAs (3.5) and unspectacular MCAT scores had a very difficult time getting into Florida schools. We're talking no interviews at places like USF or UF (Depending on the person). So it appears that while elite private med schools may take pedigree into account (and may have a track record of admitting HYP students with average GPAs that do quite well in med school), many state schools couldn't care less and will interview the 3.9 UState grad before the 3.5 HYP grad.

This is my guess and n<10, so it's not exactly a scientific observation.

My experience as well.

Hah, TIL the bottom 10% GPAs at the top med schools aren't always nontrads or URMs, they might just be Princeton or MIT grads instead.

Obvs WashU isn't at HYPSM status but I haven't known any 3.5s with unremarkable MCATs scoring t10 admits

 

[mwsapphire]

Hah, TIL the bottom 10% GPAs at the top med schools aren't always nontrads or URMs, they might just be Princeton or MIT grads instead.

Obvs WashU isn't at HYPSM status but I haven't known any 3.5s with unremarkable MCATs scoring t10 admits

Isn't WashU known for a top notch pre med program? I'm surprised they don't get the same boost- it's almost like that boost only exists for IVY undergrads, not just any top school ( so not UNC , top LAC's , UMich,Berkley). Even on these fora people applying from Ivy League seem to have more success than people from non-IVY top schools. Hm. I guess to have a lower GPA from a non Ivy you need a strong MCAT.
So I guess if you're HYP you can apply to a school were your GPA is sub tenth percentile ? XD i always knew below the tenth can't be just URM.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[Lucca]

It's cuz if you went to Harvard you could've hit straight Cs and been a banker but you chose to try a little and get a 3.7 and go to med school so you gotta want it right


/sarcasm

 

[hellowalnut]

I just think you're UGrad name shouldn't be an insurmountable barrier- a lot of people aren't as studious in HS because they didn't even know they wanted to be a docs, and I just don't think that should follow them for the rest of their careers, you know? I think the same for people who screw up the first year or two of college.
Also, grade trends being as important as UGrad GPA is something I agree with. You need to show you can handle med school, but also that you can adapt when things get harder.
Disclaimer- I've always wanted to be a doc but ended up at a mid-tier state school, so you know. Just my two cents.

It's not even just being studious. If you look at the data, a majority of people at ivy league undergraduate schools have families in the high-income bracket. Wealthier families have better connections and resources. They can afford private tutoring for their kids, they can afford to send them to better/private/prep high schools which help get their kids get into competitive colleges, and they can easily find opportunities to get their kids involved in extraordinary EC's which will help distinguish them amongst the pack.

I'm not trying to downplay the success of all of those that get into ivy-leagues but a common majority of people that get into schools like that have an abundance of opportunity and privilege that lower-middle/low-income families do not. They are raised in environments where education is cherished and extremely conducive to future success. They then get into great schools which provide even more opportunities and resources to get them into fields of their choosing.

We are beguiled to believe that we live in a nation of meritocracy but we are still far from it. There is a reason why average income correlates with both SAT/ACT scores and "prestige" of undergraduate education. It's not causation but it still a pretty convincing fact.

 

[aldol16]

Hah, TIL the bottom 10% GPAs at the top med schools aren't always nontrads or URMs, they might just be Princeton or MIT grads instead.

Obvs WashU isn't at HYPSM status but I haven't known any 3.5s with unremarkable MCATs scoring t10 admits

Bottom 10% GPAs at the top med schools doesn't mean the students were dumb. They got in over many people with higher scores than them. They're probably smarter than you or I and probably did come from one of those places.

I would agree that 3.5 with unremarkable MCAT (<515) won't score an admit at a top 10 unless they have an impressive story. But 3.5 with a 520 might.

 

[On_The_Way_Up]

I think it's kind of bullsh*t to give more weight to a GPA just because it's from a more "well-regarded" institution. One of my friends from an Ivy that is known for deflation took a class at my state school over the summer (our summer terms are the same length as a regular semester) and said it was much harder than any of the prereqs he had taken at his institution. High GPAs show not only good work ethic, but also good judgement (in knowing what you can handle).

Right. The old "my friend" said/did such and such.

 

[On_The_Way_Up]

School rank matters but not to the extent of a 3.4 at an ivy compared to a 3.9 somewhere else. Two students have a similar application. One went to Harvard and the other some no name school. Who would you go for?

 

[Inspired Chaos]

Hmm. I have been under the impression that top schools, excluding a few, are known to inflate grades.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

 

[DBC03]

Hmm. I have been under the impression that top schools, excluding a few, are known to inflate grades.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

I think it depends on the school. I was at Princeton and finished with something between an 83 and 85% in Physics with calculus my freshman year, but I ended up getting a C in the class. They graded on a bell curve, which brought many of us down. Your grade depended on how intelligent and hardworking everyone else in the class was, and not necessarily on how much effort you put into the class individually. This was mostly an issue with the science and engineering classes (but was applied to all classes for a few years). This type of thing isn't necessary at a huge state school because many students simply don't try, so the grades end up falling along a bell curve somewhat naturally.

(as a side note: in my sophomore year, my TA told me he purposefully changed my grade from a B+ to an A- because he knew that I really understood the material and thought that my grade, which was over a 93.5, really should have been a solid A. So apparently the grading methods really threw the grad students off as well)

 

[PreMedMissteps]

Hmm. I have been under the impression that top schools, excluding a few, are known to inflate grades.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Yes, we've heard that, but I've wondered if their policy is still still weed the premed prereqs.

 

[foucault]

yep

 

[Goro]

(calling @efle and @Goro and @Lucca, in particular, for help!)

since I'm procrastinating on secondaries - I want to get some cold data behind some of the speculation

I'm using AAMC's Table A-23 for 2016-2017, USNews 2018 (h/t reddit), and the grids from Harvard & Yale. (If anyone at Princeton/Stanford has similar data, hit me up. For now, from what I've seen on their website, I'll treat it as equivalent to HY)

With similar stats (GPA+MCAT), do HYPS grads get accepted by a med school (anywhere) at a higher rate than other applicants?

The average Yale and Harvard med school applicant has a ~3.6 and ~515.

1. National - acceptance rate for 3.6/515 is ~76%
2. Yale - acceptance rate is 83-86%
3. Harvard - acceptance rate is 88-94%

This doesn't take into account ECs and other factors obviously, but from the AAMC table, the average HY applicant with a 3.6/515 is accepted at a rate comparable to a national applicant with a >3.79/515, suggesting that HYPS may be equivalent to a ~0.1-0.2 boost in GPA. I don't think the average HYPS applicant is applying to schools that are less selective than other applicants.

And this is just one top school, but here are some of the undergrad school-specific interview and acceptance rates at U Michigan:

Interview Rate (Interviews/Applications):

1. Harvard: 26%
2. Yale: n.a.
3. Stanford: 21%
4. UMichigan: 18%
5. WUSTL: 17%
6. Duke: 13%
7. UC Berkeley: 9%
8. All Applicants at Michigan: 9%

Interview to Acceptance (Acceptances/Interviews):

1. Harvard: 83%
2. Yale: 76%
3. Stanford: 75%
4. All Interviewees: 72%
5. Duke: 71%
6. UC Berkeley: 70%

Overall, this seems to confirm what many people on here say: the main issue is getting to the interview. There may be a modest benefit to undergrad name at a top-tier school (equivalent to a ~0.1-0.2 GPA boost) and at one medical school, HYPS applicants get II at rates nearly 3X the overall average and >2X the rate of applicants from other "top" schools like Duke and Berkeley.

But this advantage seems to be attenuated once at the interview stage.

Let me know what you guys think. Why do you think this is? And anyone know of similar *undergrad-specific* interview/acceptance data for other schools?

I don't know, and don't care. If you do well, whether you go to Harvard or Kutztown State, you're a competitive candidate for medical school. Harvard and the other Big Name UG schools are known feeders for Top Schools. Their med school grads go into Top Residencies. This is nothing new.

Does this mean that if you're a Harvard student with a 3.3 you have a better chance of getting into JHU or U Penn? I don't think so. But, but, "Grade deflation!!" you scream?

The Top Schools have their pick of the 3.7+ Harvard etc students. They can afford to turn down 3.4 Harvard students.

 

[efle]

Michigan has an extraordinarily high overall post-II admit rate (similar to Northwestern). Similar schools usually have admit rates post-interview of 25-50%

Anyways to your question, I have an old WashU grid with over 1000 data points broken into the same bins as AMCAS (e.g. 3.8-4.0/36-38 is a bin). I won't have access to the grid for a few days but I can tell you the WashU success rates are like 20-30%+ better than the national bins with the same stats. How much of that is from being a rigorous feeder vs better ECs, better school lists or advising, etc is anyone's guess.

 

[aldol16]

The Top Schools have their pick of the 3.7+ Harvard etc students. They can afford to turn down 3.4 Harvard students.

Exactly - one student goes to Harvard, tries hard, gets a 3.4 GPA. Come med school admissions, he whines, "But I went to Hahhhvvaaddd..." The correct response is: "Yeah, well other applicants also went to Harvard and managed to pull off a 3.8 GPA." You're not getting the A but somebody is. But then again, the caveat is that GPA only matters up to a point for the top schools. HMS isn't going to reject someone with a 3.5 and 520 MCAT just because they have a 3.5. That statement shouldn't be taken too far though - it also doesn't mean that somebody with a 3.5 and 520 starts on the same rung of the ladder as someone with a 3.8 and 520. It just means that there's more to make up for - but making up is possible.

 

[Goro]

Exactly - one student goes to Harvard, tries hard, gets a 3.4 GPA. Come med school admissions, he whines, "But I went to Hahhhvvaaddd..." The correct response is: "Yeah, well other applicants also went to Harvard and managed to pull off a 3.8 GPA." You're not getting the A but somebody is. But then again, the caveat is that GPA only matters up to a point for the top schools. HMS isn't going to reject someone with a 3.5 and 520 MCAT just because they have a 3.5. That statement shouldn't be taken too far though - it also doesn't mean that somebody with a 3.5 and 520 starts on the same rung of the ladder as someone with a 3.8 and 520. It just means that there's more to make up for - but making up is possible.

So true, and SDNers are also advised to not think that stats are the only thing that matter.

 

[efle]

HMS isn't going to reject someone with a 3.5 and 520 MCAT just because they have a 3.5

Dude you have to be pretty ****ing special to get HMS love with a 3.5, that's like a quarter point beneath the 10th percentile mark

 

[happyfit]

According to their website, 1/3 of successful Princeton premeds go to top 10 schools.

Link?

 

[WedgeDawg]

Link?

This was I think the link I originally found it at but I haven't checked it in 4 years and it's understandable changed. There is still informative information about where Princeton grads go on the last page.

https://hpa.princeton.edu/file/491/download?token=-D74S_nS

 

[aldol16]

Dude you have to be pretty ****ing special to get HMS love with a 3.5, that's like a quarter point beneath the 10th percentile mark

Like I said, you don't start on the same rung as somebody with a 3.8 but you're still on the ladder. You just have to realize it's an uphill fight. One of my former students was right at the 10th percentile, had an above-average story, and got an interview there really early. Didn't end up getting in, but that had more to do with the interview than the stats.

 

[efle]

Didn't end up getting in, but that had more to do with the interview than the stats.

...as far as you/he knows. Could have been that with typical numbers he'd have been an admit, and it really is true that a 3.5 is what kept him out of HMS

 

[aldol16]

...as far as you/he knows. Could have been that with typical numbers he'd have been an admit, and it really is true that a 3.5 is what kept him out of HMS

Then there would be no reason to interview him/her to begin with - it would have been a waste of an interview space that could have been given to someone with a 3.8 or 3.9 who would have had a realistic chance of getting in, in your scenario. I would be very surprised if a 3.5 was the only thing keeping anybody out of HMS.