Do Minorites have admission advantages?

[PanaRama]

Let me first say that i know that race usually is a heated issue, but i can't help notice that some post thier race w/ thier Gpa and MCAT scores when commenting on the Medical School Admission process. I have seen so few Black Doctors that it makes me wonder if the applicant pool for Med School is scarce of minority applicants or are there other issues involved? Are there advantages for Minorites who apply to Med School in compared to thier Non-minority counterparts? Are they given 'extra points' for race? plz don't flame me this is an honest question

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[Benzo4every1]

For some odd reasons, they only consider you a minority if you are of African American descent.

Boooooo Crap!

 

[PanaRama]

For some odd reasons, they only consider you a minority if you are of African American descent.

Boooooo Crap!

I thought Medical Schools at least considered Indians to be a ' minority'

 

[Benzo4every1]

I thought Medical Schools at least considered Indians to be a ' minority'

Not sure really I just know of what I said above.

 

[Blake]

This thread is going to get ugly in 5....4.....3....2......1......*puts flame suit on*

 

[docjolly]

This thread is going to get ugly in 5....4.....3....2......1......*puts flame suit on*

You think?

 

[Benzo4every1]

This thread is going to get ugly in 5....4.....3....2......1......*puts flame suit on*

You are so optimistic. We need more people like you in the workfield!

 

[8744]

Let me first say that i know that race usually is a heated issue, but i can't help notice that some post thier race w/ thier Gpa and MCAT scores when commenting on the Medical School Admission process. I have seen so few Black Doctors that it makes me wonder if the applicant pool for Med School is scarce of minority applicants or are there other issues involved? Are there advantages for Minorites who apply to Med School in compared to thier Non-minority counterparts? Are they given 'extra points' for race? plz don't flame me this is an honest question

Of course they don't get any advantages. Why would they need them?

 

[8744]

I thought Medical Schools at least considered Indians to be a ' minority'

Only if they're real Indians like the ones who used to roam the American West. Not those imposters from South West Asia who call themselves "Indians" even though they have never even been to the United States. Don't think I don't see through that little charade.

 

[oompaloompa]

Only if they're real Indians like the ones who used to roam the American West. Not those imposters from South West Asia who call themselves "Indians" even though they have never even been to the United States. Don't think I don't see through that little charade.

Damn it! You beat me to the smart-ass reply I was planning!!

 

[ice_23]

For the OP, it's not just minority, it's Under-Represented Minority (or URM, as they throw around in the pre-allo forums). Minorities that are considered under-represented in medicine are considered in a different light than minorities that are not under-represented or your garden variety white person. I'm not sure what system is used (like points or anything) but I know that being a URM doesn't hurt.

-Ice

 

[Megalofyia]

We are working to increase diversity, especially in the African-American market.

This is directly from the faculty government minutes at UTHSCSA. It has been my experience that when they say they want to recruit URMs what they mean is they want to increase the enrollement of black students.

 

[anothertbmember]

Hispanics and Native Americans are classified as URMs as well

 

[MadameLULU]

This is directly from the faculty government minutes at UTHSCSA. It has been my experience that when they say they want to recruit URMs what they mean is they want to increase the enrollement of black students.

I don't agree...particularly in TX. There are strategies at most, if not all, of the TX schools to increase the enrollment of URMS. This isn't limited just to black students, but partcularly includes Mexican Americans. Why else would Baylor have the PAN AM program? I think Texas Tech has a similar program with some communities in El Paso...

 

[MEG@COOL]

They dont need an advantage because they have lower stats on average.

http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2004/mcatgparaceeth.htm

Notice I am saying they *dont* need a boost. This may seem contrary to common sense, but I think others in favor of AA know what I am talking about.

 

[ndi_amaka]

This is directly from the faculty government minutes at UTHSCSA. It has been my experience that when they say they want to recruit URMs what they mean is they want to increase the enrollement of black students.

This is because UTHSCSA is located in a very large hispanic city in aTexas. That school has a higher than average Hispanic applicant and matriculated student pool of what would ordinarily be an URM anywhere else in the country. You have to put that into consideration.

 

[ice_23]

They dont need an advantage because they have lower stats on average.

http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2004/mcatgparaceeth.htm

Notice I am saying they *dont* need a boost. This may seem contrary to common sense, but I think others in favor of AA know what I am talking about.

Do you mean that they don't need a "boost" because they are only competing amongst themselves? IF that is the case, then the segregation of students into pools with different averages constitutes a "boost" for those in the lower average pool in and of itself.

-Ice

 

[Fantasy Sports]

Of course, when schools are recruiting african-americans, they don't distinguish between those whose families have been in the US for centuries versus the 1st generation immigrant straight from Africa....

Guess who benefits. Hmm.

 

[Md 2b In TN]

Of course not, we are all equal. URM's do as well as non-urm's on test and they earn their way through school just like the rest of us. It's just a numbers game, good GPA and MCAT equals admission. That is why in our state (and many others) they take a summer enrichment program prior to starting school, that way they can do well and keep their minority output up, wait oh that is an advantage my bad. *******ing BS if you ask me.

 

[FernandoV]

Are there advantages for Minorites who apply to Med School in compared to thier Non-minority counterparts? Are they given 'extra points' for race?

Yes.

 

[The Engineer]

In an idealistic society, there shouldn't be any advantages based on how much melanin your skin cells produce. However we do not live in an ideal society. I would say that it depends on a school by school basis. Some schools do make much more of an effort to have "diversity" in their student population than others.

The MCAT/GPA scores link that was posted, gives you statistics based on race. You can prove anything with statistics. And I mean anything.

Don't put too much stock into epidermal melanin concentrations. They vary from person to person. Statistics count for almost nothing. Keep your nose to the grindstone and your efforts will pay off.

 

[delchrys]

duke gives a lot of extra credit to minority applicants, as does the university of michigan. beyond that, i know not, though it would be idiotic to assume they are the only two cases where that takes place in the country.

 

[Trismegistus4]

Of course, when schools are recruiting african-americans, they don't distinguish between those whose families have been in the US for centuries versus the 1st generation immigrant straight from Africa....

Guess who benefits. Hmm.

See this amusing New York Times article from last year on this topic:

Top Colleges Take More Blacks, but Which Ones?

Basically, universities' affirmative-action universities' plans, designed to benefit American blacks descended from slaves, are backfiring, admitting mostly immigrants and first-generation blacks from African families because they tend to be more motivated and hard-working on average.

 

[1Path]

mostly immigrants and first-generation blacks from African families because they tend to be more motivated and hard-working on average.

First 300 years of slavery, then 100 years of Jim Crow. Looks to me like "motivation" for the decendant of a slave has only been "allowed" for the past ~ 40 years. So lets give it another 360 years ( 400 years of oppression - 40 years of "freedom") to get these people on par with the "motivation" other groups of Americans enjoy.

 

[delchrys]

First 300 years of slavery, then 100 years of Jim Crow. Looks to me like "motivation" for the decendant of a slave has only been "allowed" for the past ~ 40 years. So lets give it another 360 years ( 400 years of oppression - 40 years of "freedom") to get these people on par with the "motivation" other groups of Americans enjoy.

sure, but then, how much time and bonus leeway should we grant irish americans, who were greatly mistreated early in our nation's history? what about italian americans? what about the chinese, who built the transcontinental railroad but reaped none of the benefits? there's a HUGE list of who owes who here, and i'm just curious why black americans are the only group who are treated like porcelain dolls who need a stepladder to stand as tall as anyone else.

 

[1Path]

sure, but then, how much time and bonus leeway should we grant irish americans, who were greatly mistreated early in our nation's history? what about italian americans? what about the chinese, who built the transcontinental railroad but reaped none of the benefits? there's a HUGE list of who owes who here, and i'm just curious why black americans are the only group who are treated like porcelain dolls who need a stepladder to stand as tall as anyone else.

I think you left the Jews out.

I'd personally be satisfied with my 40 acres and a mule that my decendants who were slaves didn't get....with interest of course!

 

[edgesofsanity]

with interest of course!

Mmm...I don't know about that. Land just erodes away with rainwater, and mules (with rare exception) don't reproduce.

So what is that, 40 acres stripped of top soil and a dead mule?

 

[delchrys]

i guess the difference between me and those who favor unequal treatment (aka racial preferences aka affirmative action) benefitting themselves is that i don't want any special advantages for what happened to my great great grandparents. hell, i don't want anything for what happened to my great grandparents, my grandparents, or even my parents, though to a point my parents' lifestyle obviously influenced my character.

realize that when a person says "members of X race will be able to get into Y program with lower qualifications than members of Z race" they are simultaneously saying "we are going to make it harder for members of Z race to get into Y program, even though the specific people who are applying as members of Z race have done nothing wrong."

am i the only person that sees how clearly this is yet another way of institutionalizing racism?

 

[Trismegistus4]

I think you left the Jews out.

I'd personally be satisfied with my 40 acres and a mule that my decendants who were slaves didn't get....with interest of course!

Your descendants were slaves?

 

[1Path]

Your descendants were slaves?

My decendants are from:

Ghana (the only place I've been able to document )
Trinidad
Spain
Ireland/Scotland
North America (as in Native America)

And practiced Judiasm, Christianity, and Shaminism.

So unless you're Asian, what's up cuz ?????

 

[Hoya11]

i guess the difference between me and those who favor unequal treatment (aka racial preferences aka affirmative action) benefitting themselves is that i don't want any special advantages for what happened to my great great grandparents. hell, i don't want anything for what happened to my great grandparents, my grandparents, or even my parents, though to a point my parents' lifestyle obviously influenced my character.

realize that when a person says "members of X race will be able to get into Y program with lower qualifications than members of Z race" they are simultaneously saying "we are going to make it harder for members of Z race to get into Y program, even though the specific people who are applying as members of Z race have done nothing wrong."

am i the only person that sees how clearly this is yet another way of institutionalizing racism?

i agree
but you have to agree with the fact that no one race is smarter than another, and there should be equal representation in med schools, why isnt there naturally? Random other variable like oppression/culture/whatever

By letting URMS in easier, they hope medicine and what it takes to be a doctor will trickle down into the culture and these factors that lead to lower stats will then go away and everything will equalize. its SUPPOSED like a jumpstart to equalize the situation as i see it.

I think one of the biggest probs with it is that its so extreme, like small schools have URMS with 25 averge and non-URMS with 35 average to get their 30 averge. but not often the case

 

[anothertbmember]

My decendants are from:

Ghana (the only place I've been able to document )
Trinidad
Spain
Ireland/Scotland
North America (as in Native America)

And practiced Judiasm, Christianity, and Shaminism.

So unless you're Asian, what's up cuz ?????

Ancestors...

 

[MEG@COOL]

In an idealistic society, there shouldn't be any advantages based on how much melanin your skin cells produce. However we do not live in an ideal society. I would say that it depends on a school by school basis. Some schools do make much more of an effort to have "diversity" in their student population than others.

The MCAT/GPA scores link that was posted, gives you statistics based on race. You can prove anything with statistics. And I mean anything.

Don't put too much stock into epidermal melanin concentrations. They vary from person to person. Statistics count for almost nothing. Keep your nose to the grindstone and your efforts will pay off.

How about using the stat's to prove the contrary of what everyone is saying then: that on average URMS have equal or higher stats than non URMS.
"Statistics count for almost nothing. Keep your nose to the grindstone and your efforts will pay off." It's easy to mindlessly parrot boiler plate denouncements isnt it? Too easy.

 

[bettyboo]

I think that the question of affirmative action is way more complicated then what happened to who's grandparents. The whole system happened out of a well intentioned attempt to even the playing field. ( Just an aside affirmative action is also the reason why woman have gotten as far as they have in this country... but whenever someone says minority we all think black people but in the US it is all who are not white males... but I digress).
But the system has gone out of control and there is a backlash... these days African Americans have to defend the very reasons why they made it. We are regressing to judging a person by the number of points that the admission committe may have given them based on their race... I have yet to meet any black student in higher education that thinks that his/her chance was handed to them. All have worked very very hard to get to med schoo, law school etc...

A final point, the real problem is that the education system tries to level playing fields too late in the game. Why not invest in better education at the elementary to high school years then we would not need a "point system" and the playing field would be leveled.
Just some thoughts

 

[Trismegistus4]

My decendants are from:

Ghana (the only place I've been able to document )
Trinidad
Spain
Ireland/Scotland
North America (as in Native America)

And practiced Judiasm, Christianity, and Shaminism.

So unless you're Asian, what's up cuz ?????

Either you mean ancestors, or you really get around!

 

[1Path]

Ancestors...

Opps!

 

[delchrys]

i agree
but you have to agree with the fact that no one race is smarter than another, and there should be equal representation in med schools, why isnt there naturally? Random other variable like oppression/culture/whatever

um, actually, i would like to know at what point you decided without any scientific basis (in fact, in contrast to the existing body of evidence) the above things. is one race darker-skinned than another? is one race more susceptible to certain disorders than others? do members of one race tend to demonstrate certain physical aptitudes that others do not? the answer to each of these questions is yes, yet people somehow think that intelligence is not part of the picture. why? on what scientific basis is this assumption made, particularly when confronted with the mountain of data provided by the studies analyzed in "the bell curve"?

second, why "should" there be equal racial representation in med schools any more than there should be equal representation in med schools based on eye color, favorite food, height, and number of sex partners? what happened to "the most-qualified person wins"??? at what point will the playing field be "level" enough that the cards are not officially and legally stacked against me in a government sanctioned effort to exclude my people from programs where a black or hispanic applicant might possibly want to take my place? how long until these reverse jim crow policies are seen for what they are and destroyed?

why isn't there a proportionate representation of blacks in medical schools? read "losing the race" by john mcwhorter. it is one possible explanation, one that is not offered on the news. do i beleive it? not necessarily, but i also don't discount it as false just because it is counter to the prevailing Politically "Correct" pseudowisdom (read 'mob mentality of the 21st century').

who does it "help" to give certain races a special get out of jail free card that they can wave whenever they feel like the game is getting too tough. life's not fair, anyone can tell you that. since when did it become anything but shameful to separate people out by race and treat them differently on that basis???

 

[Mutterkuchen]

You'll be happy to know that there are surprisingly very few URMs in medical school, even with initiatives to increase the numbers. So, if you don't get into medical school, blame yourself, not someone else.

 

[8744]

You'll be happy to know that there are surprisingly very few URMs in medical school, even with initiatives to increase the numbers. So, if you don't get into medical school, blame yourself, not someone else.

I have to laugh when I hear people say that minorities need extra help getting into medical school. Maybe so, but two of the top five students in my class are the only two black girls in the class. I have no doubt that their MCAT scores were several orders of magnitude higher than mine, as were their Step 1 and Step 2 scores.

 

[Doc 2b]

um, actually, i would like to know at what point you decided without any scientific basis (in fact, in contrast to the existing body of evidence) the above things. is one race darker-skinned than another? is one race more susceptible to certain disorders than others? do members of one race tend to demonstrate certain physical aptitudes that others do not? the answer to each of these questions is yes, yet people somehow think that intelligence is not part of the picture. why? on what scientific basis is this assumption made, particularly when confronted with the mountain of data provided by the studies analyzed in "the bell curve"?

second, why "should" there be equal racial representation in med schools any more than there should be equal representation in med schools based on eye color, favorite food, height, and number of sex partners? what happened to "the most-qualified person wins"??? at what point will the playing field be "level" enough that the cards are not officially and legally stacked against me in a government sanctioned effort to exclude my people from programs where a black or hispanic applicant might possibly want to take my place? how long until these reverse jim crow policies are seen for what they are and destroyed?

why isn't there a proportionate representation of blacks in medical schools? read "losing the race" by john mcwhorter. it is one possible explanation, one that is not offered on the news. do i beleive it? not necessarily, but i also don't discount it as false just because it is counter to the prevailing Politically "Correct" pseudowisdom (read 'mob mentality of the 21st century').

who does it "help" to give certain races a special get out of jail free card that they can wave whenever they feel like the game is getting too tough. life's not fair, anyone can tell you that. since when did it become anything but shameful to separate people out by race and treat them differently on that basis???

Some very good points...but man your gonna get flamed

Panda...I don't think that those of whom you speak are who people get upset about. It is those with 19's on their MCATs that get in, and yeah I know someone.

 

[DoctorG]

um, actually, i would like to know at what point you decided without any scientific basis (in fact, in contrast to the existing body of evidence) the above things. is one race darker-skinned than another? is one race more susceptible to certain disorders than others? do members of one race tend to demonstrate certain physical aptitudes that others do not? the answer to each of these questions is yes, yet people somehow think that intelligence is not part of the picture. why? on what scientific basis is this assumption made, particularly when confronted with the mountain of data provided by the studies analyzed in "the bell curve"?

I usually try to stay away from these debates. I'm trying to understand what you mean? Are you trying to say that there is a direct relationship between intelligence and skin color?
Pardon me if I'm slow since I'm a black Nigerian and my skin color is darker than your average black. I guess I may be less intelligent to understand.

 

[MEG@COOL]

I have to laugh when I hear people say that minorities need extra help getting into medical school. Maybe so, but two of the top five students in my class are the only two black girls in the class. I have no doubt that their MCAT scores were several orders of magnitude higher than mine, as were their Step 1 and Step 2 scores.

Not sure of the point you are trying to make. Firstly, these are atypical URMS(see AAMC data). Secondly, nobody feels negatively about the URMS that actually are capable of getting in on merit. We only cry foul for those that get in with egregiously low stats and no other merit based distinctions capable of compensating for the academic deficiency.

Thirdly lets assume for argument's sake that AA is a legit policy. Are these URMS even legit URMS(URMS which AA originally intended to help), or are they one of the (aforementioned) first generation Africans that came over to the US for schooling? Maybe they just came to the US to obtain a free ride from a URM scholarship. This may or may not be the case, but such things can happen which should make even proponents of AA admit that it is at least flawed.

 

[delchrys]

Are you trying to say that there is a direct relationship between intelligence and skin color?
Pardon me if I'm slow since I'm a black Nigerian and my skin color is darker than your average black. I guess I may be less intelligent to understand.

no, that's not what i'm saying, though i'm sure you would love it if i actually did believe such idiocy. my point was that the person i was talking to made some assumptions as though they were unquestionably true. whether i agree with any or all of them is irrelevant; my goal is to get people to question what they otherwise presume to be true.

undoubtedly you are extremely intelligent. at the same time, your english is terrible, so you might want to let those who can speak the language flame me while you just sit back and "normally don't get involved in these debates" as you read each and every post, as if that doesn't qualify as "getting involved."

 

[delchrys]

You'll be happy to know that there are surprisingly very few URMs in medical school, even with initiatives to increase the numbers. So, if you don't get into medical school, blame yourself, not someone else.

i'm not trying to get in, so i'm not worried. if i was trying, i'd get in regardless; i'm good like that. at the same time, i know very intelligent people who did quite well on their MCATS and had great GPAs who ended up at LECOM while a "friend" of theirs who had a much lower GPA and MCAT got into UMich med school. COINCIDENTALLY he is hispanic.

have you actually ever LOOKED at the statistics one poster linked to on the first page of this thread, or are you just running your mouth like a typical bleeding heart liberal? They should just give people like you a little card that says "the following is true" and run down a list of what you should believe, just like they do for the religious right. if you can read the statistics and think that it's "right" or "okay" that white people are discriminated against on the basis of their skin color, then that's wonderful for you that you have your opinion on the matter. just stop denying that it's anything other than institutionalized racism.

 

[DoctorG]

no, that's not what i'm saying, though i'm sure you would love it if i actually did believe such idiocy. my point was that the person i was talking to made some assumptions as though they were unquestionably true. whether i agree with any or all of them is irrelevant; my goal is to get people to question what they otherwise presume to be true.

undoubtedly you are extremely intelligent. at the same time, your english is terrible, so you might want to let those who can speak the language flame me while you just sit back and "normally don't get involved in these debates" as you read each and every post, as if that doesn't qualify as "getting involved."

Thanks and good luck with your goal. Got to go learn my ABC. Heheheh

 

[Mutterkuchen]

have you actually ever LOOKED at the statistics one poster linked to on the first page of this thread, or are you just running your mouth like a typical bleeding heart liberal? They should just give people like you a little card that says "the following is true" and run down a list of what you should believe, just like they do for the religious right. if you can read the statistics and think that it's "right" or "okay" that white people are discriminated against on the basis of their skin color, then that's wonderful for you that you have your opinion on the matter. just stop denying that it's anything other than institutionalized racism.

I get tired of of the term "institutional racism" used as if to mean "I (or my friend) would have gotten in, except for the URMs. Any URM guidelines apply to very few people. Stop blaming everyone else for your mediocre MCATS, grades, and ECs. Instead of blaming everyone else, take responsbility for yourself and get the credentials needed to get into med school. The fact is that most applicants with a MCAT of 30, 3.5 gpa, and interesting ECs get into medical school. White, black, Asian, etc. They usually get in. The ones that don't ususally have something else, that can not be objectively measured. How do you quantify if one is an ass hole? That just cannot be measured, but it shows up at interviews.

Regarding the URM concept. . . having different cultural representations in the medcial community is important for patients, not doctors. This is why my wife adamently insists on having a female OB/GYN. Its not that she is a man hater, she just feels that women understand her better. The same thing is true for other races and cultures in America.

But the bottom line is that the URM affects VERY few URMs and ORMs alike. In my class I think that there is 1 URM. 1. And I don't know this person's stats. He could have a 35 and 3.7.

 

[SigPi]

you dont see any bleeding hearts trying to "diversify" the NBA or try to make its demographics "mirror that of the population". Making it to the NBA is about ABILITY period. Never thought i'd say that we could learn a lesson from the NBA but hey...

It boils my blood to see institutions lower standards to hire or admit minorities to professional schools just becuase they are minorities who happen to show interest. If you are that interested and dedicated, show some DESIRE.. study like hell and work your ass off to get good grades and MCATs (if medicine is your goal) and COMPETE with the best in the country without your AA waterwings.

 

[Rafael Cavalcan]

I'm a minority and I agree with both sides. My mom has the hardest time to go to a doctor by herself, b/c most of her doctors talk way too fast for her to understand, and when they do slow down after she ask them to,it's only momentarely, they regain their normal speed after a while. But I also believe that if you are interested in medicine, you should work hard to get accepted, if someone who is a minority with considerable lower GPA and MCAT than somebody else, in my opinion they shouldn't be accepted over the other person. But you also have to put into consideration the diversity of doctors needed by the patients, and I agree that medical schools should try to look for that.

 

[anothertbmember]

I'm not a fan of AA, that's why my stats rock. I can get in on my own without the fact that for race I put an H. I worked my tail off for grades and MCAT scores, and it shows in my undergrad GPA and my MCAT score. Granted, I didn't mind getting money thrown my way so that a school could woo me, but I'll take advantage of the system in place if it will save me over 100 G's. Don't tell me you wouldn't.

 

[ice_23]

The point is that there seems to be considerable inequity in many professional schools in terms of representing minorities relative to their respective population numbers. However, I do not believe that AA is the solution. At the margin, it becomes about letting a relatively less qualified URM preferentially over a relatively more qualified non-URM. Another poster mentioned starting this "leveling of the playing field" earlier, via elementary school and secondary school education. That is the solution (albeit easier said than done).

-Ice