Do Minorites have admission advantages?

[ice_23]

I'm not a fan of AA, that's why my stats rock. I can get in on my own without the fact that for race I put an H. I worked my tail off for grades and MCAT scores, and it shows in my undergrad GPA and my MCAT score. Granted, I didn't mind getting money thrown my way so that a school could woo me, but I'll take advantage of the system in place if it will save me over 100 G's. Don't tell me you wouldn't.

Don't hate the player, hate the game, eh?

-Ice

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[anothertbmember]

Don't hate the player, hate the game, eh?

-Ice

You got it.

 

[bess]

Please, I would like to find out if it is possible for a nurse to work a few hours while in med. school or during the summers. Anyone knows if nurses have any advantage based on experience in med. school?

 

[LSR1979]

i guess the difference between me and those who favor unequal treatment (aka racial preferences aka affirmative action) benefitting themselves is that i don't want any special advantages for what happened to my great great grandparents. hell, i don't want anything for what happened to my great grandparents, my grandparents, or even my parents, though to a point my parents' lifestyle obviously influenced my character.

realize that when a person says "members of X race will be able to get into Y program with lower qualifications than members of Z race" they are simultaneously saying "we are going to make it harder for members of Z race to get into Y program, even though the specific people who are applying as members of Z race have done nothing wrong."

am i the only person that sees how clearly this is yet another way of institutionalizing racism?

Makes perfect sense to me. Of course people will argue against this true and completely logical thought if doing so benefits them - hence AA

 

[AntGod22]

I have to say that it doesnt matter to me what you are or who you are or what you did or didnt do to get into med school. The one thing I have learned is that everyone has to take the same crappy ****, and take the same boards, and work their buts off just as much as everyone else when they get into med school. If you got in because your black or hispanic or indian so be it, congrats, good for you, because you know why thats how the world goes round. Everything in this world is based on who you know, or who you are, and thats just how it is. Their are reasons why blacks and indians are giving special treatment, mostly because they have been shafted from the begining. If it means that to make the govt happy, schools are allowed to accept students with a little bit more subpar scores who still have to eventually pass all the STANDARDIZED **** from Step 1 to Step 3, and then any Specialty board they go into, who gives a rat ass. Dont be bitter just try and do your own best, because thats all you can do besides piss and moan.

i'm not trying to get in, so i'm not worried. if i was trying, i'd get in regardless; i'm good like that. at the same time, i know very intelligent people who did quite well on their MCATS and had great GPAs who ended up at LECOM while a "friend" of theirs who had a much lower GPA and MCAT got into UMich med school. COINCIDENTALLY he is hispanic.

have you actually ever LOOKED at the statistics one poster linked to on the first page of this thread, or are you just running your mouth like a typical bleeding heart liberal? They should just give people like you a little card that says "the following is true" and run down a list of what you should believe, just like they do for the religious right. if you can read the statistics and think that it's "right" or "okay" that white people are discriminated against on the basis of their skin color, then that's wonderful for you that you have your opinion on the matter. just stop denying that it's anything other than institutionalized racism.

 

[ice_23]

The one thing I have learned is that everyone has to take the same crappy ****, and take the same boards, and work their buts off just as much as everyone else when they get into med school.

Not if one group has a distinct advantage. Then not everyone has to "work their butts off just as much as everyone else." If certain groups have a distinct advantage, they'd have to work relatively "less" to get to the same point.

If you got in because your black or hispanic or indian so be it, congrats, good for you, because you know why thats how the world goes round. Everything in this world is based on who you know, or who you are, and thats just how it is. Their are reasons why blacks and indians are giving special treatment, mostly because they have been shafted from the begining. If it means that to make the govt happy, schools are allowed to accept students with a little bit more subpar scores who still have to eventually pass all the STANDARDIZED **** from Step 1 to Step 3, and then any Specialty board they go into, who gives a rat ass. Dont be bitter just try and do your own best, because thats all you can do besides piss and moan.

Perhaps its ok with you. But if its not ok with the people getting shafted, then is the answer "deal with it" ok? Isn't the whole premise of AA that saying "dealing with it" isn't cool, and that people should be given some sort of compensation for being shafted in the past??

-Ice

 

[delchrys]

all i'm saying is this: sit on the Duke University School of Medicine admissions committee for a year and tell me that it's fair. won't even LOOK at a white person with a 24 MCAT, but the director (who is black, btw, though i'm sure purely coincidental and unrelated to the underlying issue) INSISTS that the black candidate with a 24 is qualified and should be recommended for admission. when challenged, by a white girl, on the grounds that he is simply not up to "duke standards," the director responds "well, you're saying that because you don't know what it's like to be poor." white girl replies "yes i do, i grew up in a small town of about 3,000 people, most of whom work in mines." director replies, "well, you don't know what it's like to have no one who is college educated in your family as a role model." girl answers, "yes, i do: i'm the first person in my family who graduated from college. my mom's a secretary and my dad's a security guard."

true story, and i'm excited to hear the non-racist replies of SDN readers to this one as they try to justify how this is acceptable either (1) because of "past racism against blacks"; or (2) because the 24 MCAT black dude probably had other positive important factors on his CV or application (even if he did, that wouldn't explain why white people with 24 MCAT scores don't even get LOOKED AT).

hypocrisy. racism. ridiculousness.

so, in 30 years, can my kids come and bitch that they need special stepladders to reach their dreams, on account of all the anti-white racism that's being authorized by the government today? how about we just end the cycle of idiocy now by making everyone have to get by on their QUALIFICATIONS independent of race???? or is someone scared they won't cut it?

 

[Rafael Cavalcan]

Minorities had years of abuse that doesn't even compare to "white racism" and you guys are bitching about some advantage that minorities have in admissions.If you look at the percentage of minorities acceted at a school you see a relatively small number, and it's entirely possible that out of the minorities accepted at a particular school, an even less percentage have considerably lower stats than the rest of the people accepted.

 

[Hoya11]

all i'm saying is this: sit on the Duke University School of Medicine admissions committee for a year and tell me that it's fair. won't even LOOK at a white person with a 24 MCAT, but the director (who is black, btw, though i'm sure purely coincidental and unrelated to the underlying issue) INSISTS that the black candidate with a 24 is qualified and should be recommended for admission. when challenged, by a white girl, on the grounds that he is simply not up to "duke standards," the director responds "well, you're saying that because you don't know what it's like to be poor." white girl replies "yes i do, i grew up in a small town of about 3,000 people, most of whom work in mines." director replies, "well, you don't know what it's like to have no one who is college educated in your family as a role model." girl answers, "yes, i do: i'm the first person in my family who graduated from college. my mom's a secretary and my dad's a security guard."

true story, and i'm excited to hear the non-racist replies of SDN readers to this one as they try to justify how this is acceptable either (1) because of "past racism against blacks"; or (2) because the 24 MCAT black dude probably had other positive important factors on his CV or application (even if he did, that wouldn't explain why white people with 24 MCAT scores don't even get LOOKED AT).

hypocrisy. racism. ridiculousness.

so, in 30 years, can my kids come and bitch that they need special stepladders to reach their dreams, on account of all the anti-white racism that's being authorized by the government today? how about we just end the cycle of idiocy now by making everyone have to get by on their QUALIFICATIONS independent of race???? or is someone scared they won't cut it?

I do not doubt that that is true and I will not argue that it is riduclous and racism. But that is not AA, that is the med school in particular.

All the government says is, hey schools, you should take these minorities and if you do well give you some kind of incentive. From there, its up to the school how ridiculous they make it, and if they take the rich URMS or poor URMS and so on. This is where AA has gone out of control, in the irresponsible hands of the med schools.

In the above example I would direct your anger at the Adcom at Duke and everyone there who allows that kind of thing to happen. I mean the incentives that the school gets for taking the black kid are not sooo great that they cant pass it up, the individual selection decisions are made by Adcoms.

The concept of AA in general is not responsible for this. Look at its success in other less extreme fields(ie getting into medschool is extreme). Business, College admissions I tihnk you can make a case that it does more good than harm since its on such a large scale with so many institutions regulating it.

For example, what if US Med Schools had this rule: for every URM accepted with lower stats than average, another spot in the class opened up for the next most competitive candidate of any race. EG if duke accepted the black kid with low scores, they would open up another seat in the class (the class would grow) by 1 student and another student would be accepted based on merit. In other words, these URMS could not "TAKE" seats from those more qualified. How could they fund the increased class size? THe incentives they get from admitting the URMS in the first place.

I am not saying this is the answer. I am just saying that the problem here is NOT with the idea of AA. It is how it is practiced by our traditional, greedy, unregulated medical schools that dare not be questioned and they should be the real target of your anger.

 

[delchrys]

Minorities had years of abuse that doesn't even compare to "white racism" and you guys are bitching about some advantage that minorities have in admissions.If you look at the percentage of minorities acceted at a school you see a relatively small number, and it's entirely possible that out of the minorities accepted at a particular school, an even less percentage have considerably lower stats than the rest of the people accepted.

TRANSLATION:
"white people were bad first and worse, so doing it in reverse is okay if it's not as extreme. further, to complain about the injustice is what you are supposed to do if you are non-white, but if you're white, then it's just "bitching." Finally, i will now speculate wildly and without factual support of ANY kind that probably minorities accepted to schools are BETTER than the average white people accepted."

do you realize how ridiculous you are, or are you truly ignorant of it?

 

[delchrys]

I do not doubt that that is true and I will not argue that it is riduclous and racism. But that is not AA, that is the med school in particular.

All the government says is, hey schools, you should take these minorities and if you do well give you some kind of incentive. From there, its up to the school how ridiculous they make it, and if they take the rich URMS or poor URMS and so on. This is where AA has gone out of control, in the irresponsible hands of the med schools.

In the above example I would direct your anger at the Adcom at Duke and everyone there who allows that kind of thing to happen. I mean the incentives that the school gets for taking the black kid are not sooo great that they cant pass it up, the individual selection decisions are made by Adcoms.

The concept of AA in general is not responsible for this. Look at its success in other less extreme fields(ie getting into medschool is extreme). Business, College admissions I tihnk you can make a case that it does more good than harm since its on such a large scale with so many institutions regulating it.

For example, what if US Med Schools had this rule: for every URM accepted with lower stats than average, another spot in the class opened up for the next most competitive candidate of any race. EG if duke accepted the black kid with low scores, they would open up another seat in the class (the class would grow) by 1 student and another student would be accepted based on merit. In other words, these URMS could not "TAKE" seats from those more qualified. How could they fund the increased class size? THe incentives they get from admitting the URMS in the first place.

I am not saying this is the answer. I am just saying that the problem here is NOT with the idea of AA. It is how it is practiced by our traditional, greedy, unregulated medical schools that dare not be questioned and they should be the real target of your anger.

first: you are right that the ADCOM is to blame. unfortunately, it is the nature of the academic to take anything even remotely resembling "PC" thinking and draw it to extreme proportions, and this should have been taken into account in creating the program.

second: until there is AA created for every job, i don't think it can be justified for any particular job. the sense in taking only the BEST sports players on college and pro teams while taking underachieving people into medical schools or law schools or any other educational program solely on the basis that "there aren't enough of that race in the program yet" eludes me entirely. instead of explaining why this is somehow good for the world, people seem to take it as a given that having more minorities (who have lower qualifications on average than their white counterparts) in an educational program or in a career field is "GOOD," even if done at the expense of many hard-working and high-achieving white people. they then take this drastically incorrect presumption to the next level by arguing that, even if it is racist, it's GOOD racism because it takes care of "past" mistakes.

no one has addressed my earlier comment about what descendants of irish-american immigrants, italians, jews, chinese, etc. should get in terms of compensation or "more level playing field"--why not? oh, that's because every one of these ethnic minorities achieved success WITHOUT BEING GIVEN EVERY FREAKIN BREAK UNDER THE SUN.

it appears that no one who has posted thus far in favor of AA realizes how demeaning it is to say that black people NEED to have rules skewed in their favor in order to be able to compete on par with white people. that is offensive, and is the highest form of racism possible, and the worst part is that it is propogated and supported by the very people who it labels incapable of succeeding without help.

 

[Benzo4every1]

Please, I would like to find out if it is possible for a nurse to work a few hours while in med. school or during the summers. Anyone knows if nurses have any advantage based on experience in med. school?

the top people in my classes are nurses.
Nurses just generally do better in med school. Me, minus the experience they have cannot compare

 

[AntGod22]

Minorities had years of abuse that doesn't even compare to "white racism" and you guys are bitching about some advantage that minorities have in admissions.If you look at the percentage of minorities acceted at a school you see a relatively small number, and it's entirely possible that out of the minorities accepted at a particular school, an even less percentage have considerably lower stats than the rest of the people accepted.

I agree, the amount of minorities who make it in is pathetic, compared to the rest of the white men and women. Anyway the whole idea behind it is that hopefully these men and women minorities will one day work in underserved areas that they either come from or have a link to. Because im sure most of us dont want to work in those areas, and would rather have those suburban white cushy parts of the country. Well atleast thats what I imagine for myself. I just think its all fair !!!

 

[delchrys]

I agree, the amount of minorities who make it in is pathetic, compared to the rest of the white men and women. Anyway the whole idea behind it is that hopefully these men and women minorities will one day work in underserved areas that they either come from or have a link to. Because im sure most of us dont want to work in those areas, and would rather have those suburban white cushy parts of the country. Well atleast thats what I imagine for myself. I just think its all fair !!!

until reality steps in and points out that the URM med school grads want to work in the underserved areas as bad as you do...i.e., they go to cushy parts.

 

[1Path]

it appears that no one who has posted thus far in favor of AA realizes how demeaning it is to say that black people NEED to have rules skewed in their favor in order to be able to compete on par with white people. that is offensive, and is the highest form of racism possible, and the worst part is that it is propogated and supported by the very people who it labels incapable of succeeding without help.

LEGACY/CONNECTIONS play a bigger role in college/med/law school admissions BY FAR than AA. What's your stand on that? Is it "demeaning" for a person of any race to have a leg up on the admission game because their Mom went to med school with the dean of admissions? Perhaps not, because everyone knows that minorities aren't the main beneficiaries of this conduit into med school!

So it looks to me that the only time an issue becomes "demeaning" is when it benefits people of color.

 

[ice_23]

LEGACY/CONNECTIONS play a bigger role in college/med/law school admissions BY FAR than AA. What's your stand on that? Is it "demeaning" for a person of any race to have a leg up on the admission game because their Mom went to med school with the dean of admissions? Perhaps not, because everyone knows that minorities aren't the main beneficiaries of this conduit into med school!

So it looks to me that the only time an issue becomes "demeaning" is when it benefits people of color.

Legacy admissions are BS too. Anyone who is a proponent of legacy admissions but an opponent of AA policies is being a hypocrite. So I don't think people would disagree with you.

-Ice

 

[delchrys]

LEGACY/CONNECTIONS play a bigger role in college/med/law school admissions BY FAR than AA. What's your stand on that? Is it "demeaning" for a person of any race to have a leg up on the admission game because their Mom went to med school with the dean of admissions? Perhaps not, because everyone knows that minorities aren't the main beneficiaries of this conduit into med school!

So it looks to me that the only time an issue becomes "demeaning" is when it benefits people of color.

no.

(1) the issue here is the utter hypocrisy of people who claim to be "fighting" racism by using racist AA policies to their "advantage".

(2) i am an advocate only for ABILITY to count in admissions. what the hell does so-and-so's friendship with a dean have to do with ability? nothing. legacy crap is just as uncool as AA. the difference is that legacy shenanigans have nothing to do with race. this doesn't make them good; legacy admissions are bad. but they are totally unrelated to the topic here, though nice try at derailing this conversation.

why can't you address the issue being discussed instead of wandering off down some other path as though the point is to try to "burn" me rather than to address my points? oh yeah, because you don't actually have a useful, intelligent thing to say on the topic.

 

[1Path]

why can't you address the issue being discussed instead of wandering off down some other path as though the point is to try to "burn" me rather than to address my points? oh yeah, because you don't actually have a useful, intelligent thing to say on the topic.

And I guess you think insulting people adds to the arguement? No wonder these types of threads ALWAYS end up being such a waste of time!

Try this for a little education, The PBS miniseries "Slavery and the Making of America" amd renting the movie Amistad. Then get back to me............

 

[airvent]

Adcoms look for candidates that they believe will be able to succeed in Med school. Consider that their threshold. They also look for positive qualities in the candidates character. Also Schools have mission statements that point out their concerns for public health issues. Minorities not having access to medical health providers IS a public health issue that they address by accepting and training more minorities. That does not guarantee that URMs will head to those areas, but they are more likely to than others.

Example: say Bolivia has a shortage of DRs and no place to train them. Universities with international programs would accept Bolivian candidates. That does not mean that a spot was taken from a British candidate.

 

[delchrys]

And I guess you think insulting people adds to the arguement? No wonder these types of threads ALWAYS end up being such a waste of time!

Try this for a little education, The PBS miniseries "Slavery and the Making of America" amd renting the movie Amistad. Then get back to me............

Insulting people? Like your post treating what was said as if it was ridiculous, emphasized with your little passive-aggressive eyerolling emoticon at the end? give me a break. If it's insulting to say that an argument lacks merit, which, thus far, each one in favor of AA pretty much does, then so be it--call me insulting all you want. but that does NOTHING to further the discussion.

Why don't you educate yourself on the role the chinese played in the transcontinental railroad, or the way irish immigrants were treated when they arrived in the states? why aren't you on the forefront of the almost nonexistent movement to level the playing field for descendants of japanese immigrants who were interned in camps during WWII, if you care so much about righting inequities of the past? I'm not sure how slavery that ended well more than a century ago causes black people born in the twenty-first century such hardship when applying to medical school, but i would be overjoyed if watching amistad could clear that up. unfortunately, it didn't the first time i watched it, and unless it's one hell of a director's cut, you still aren't addressing the issue.

let me try to put it another way, though apparently racism is only bad if it's your group that experiences it:
my ancestors came to the united states two whole generations ago. half of them were lebanese (yeah, you can bet they had a great time, no racism towards lebanese, nope, none, not even today...oh wait, yep, it's still here), and half were irish. NONE of them were in the country while slavery was in effect. NONE of them owned slaves. i come from a lower-to-middle class economic background. if my scores and grades were borderline, and a black student's scores and grades, applying for the same program as me, were just as borderline, you and i both know who would be getting in--the black student, and solely on the basis of his or her race. you can claim that he or she might have some special unquantifiable qualities that made him or her a better candidate, but that sounds just like white racist business owners in the 1960's explaining why they didn't hire any given black applicant, so sorry, no hiding behind that. you can tryto tell me to stop whining and that i should work harder to do better than the black applicant, but that's just more of the same racism, pure and simple. you have no where to go, nothing to say, other than to admit that it is clearly racism that is in play, regardless of the justifications you might want to add to it.

dog me out for being insulting. dog me out for using a hypothetical where i have "borderline" scores. but speak to the point of the discussion, not out of the side of your mouth. if you want to point at slavery as the reason, or any other ancient practice that i am completely devoid of any responsibility for, then demonstrate how it is relevant and why i should care that your ancestors had it tough any more than you should care why my ancestors had it tough.

 

[bettyboo]

Delchrys my friend you are getting way too upset about this... Are you in med school or trying to get in? You sound like someone who's been wronged.
I think even the proponents of AA although they may not admit it have to see that there is a flaw in the system and trying to legislate fairness is not going to do it. I think that AA as a system is demeaning to the society and not african americans because it basically says that we cannot be fair towards other people unless there is a law compelling us to... and even then we still suck at it.
(I'm using we as a generality not to point fingers at anyone or any race).

 

[1Path]

or the way irish immigrants were treated when they arrived in the states?

You mean the way MY irish ancestors were treated when THEY arrived in the US?? My great-great- great grand father DID have a story to pass along about that!

Dude, I don't argue with you because as EVERY minority on SDN knows, arguing with folks like you about this topic is a hopeless effort.

PS- The "eye rolling" smiley has a smile on his face, taken to mean in jest. Perhaps after taking a Kaplan course and a Prozac, you could see it this way too!

 

[ice_23]

Adcoms look for candidates that they believe will be able to succeed in Med school. Consider that their threshold. They also look for positive qualities in the candidates character. Also Schools have mission statements that point out their concerns for public health issues. Minorities not having access to medical health providers IS a public health issue that they address by accepting and training more minorities. That does not guarantee that URMs will head to those areas, but they are more likely to than others.

Example: say Bolivia has a shortage of DRs and no place to train them. Universities with international programs would accept Bolivian candidates. That does not mean that a spot was taken from a British candidate.

But it does mean that that spot was taken from some candidate, assuming that the total number of spots remains constant (which is usually the case with AA programs). If the bolivian in question has equal to or better qualifications than another student, then there is no problem. But if he/she does not, then the spot was, to some degree, taken solely on race and not on qualifications (unless people are willing to assert that certain races are more qualified to being doctors than other races).

Additionally, if part of the reason behind accepting specific minorities is to get Dr's of that minority to serve underserved areas, then why not have those particular people who benefit from such a policy (i.e. who would not have got in otherwise due to lower stats) to sign contracts upon entering medical school stating that they will serve particular areas when they leave medical school (and tie in their loans to provide a financial incentive to stick to the contract)? Why bank on probability when medical schools can solve the public health issue that you raised with the backing of the law?

Honestly, although a system based on economic AA would be flawed as well, I'd rather see race-blind admissions and admission benefits given to truly poor people instead of using race as (to a large degree) a proxy for economic status. Instead, the admissions system is the exact opposite.

-Ice

 

[supereagles]

Thanks and good luck with your goal. Got to go learn my ABC. Heheheh

I am happy you let that go. People like that are not worth arguing with. Well I also have to go learn my ABC. stay strong my fellow Nigerian

 

[delchrys]

Delchrys my friend you are getting way too upset about this... Are you in med school or trying to get in? You sound like someone who's been wronged.

neither. i'm in law school, almost done (thank god!), and not concerned about it beyond the principles involved.

as to the rest, nice post

 

[delchrys]

You mean the way MY irish ancestors were treated when THEY arrived in the US?? My great-great- great grand father DID have a story to pass along about that!

Dude, I don't argue with you because as EVERY minority on SDN knows, arguing with folks like you about this topic is a hopeless effort.

PS- The "eye rolling" smiley has a smile on his face, taken to mean in jest. Perhaps after taking a Kaplan course and a Prozac, you could see it this way too!

didn't know they offered kaplan courses on emoticon protocol...

"as EVERY minority on SDN knows, arguing with folks like you about this topic is a hopeless effort." so, you lump all minorities together and make a sweeping generalization about their beliefs, AND you lump "folks like me" into some other bucket, though i'm not sure on what basis. awesome.

the truth is you don't argue with me because you don't have anything to say. your presumptions are the gas that moves your car, and when those are challenged you can only look past me and change the subject. your presumptions are bogus, and i submit that you know this, at least to a certain extent, and that it is intellectually dishonest to pretend otherwise.

 

[visualwealth]

Everyone got into medical school by luck... There is always someone more qualified than YOU that got rejected... I Know someone with 3.9 33 that got rejected from a low ranked school and got accepte to a top ten school... LIKE I SAID Getting into med school is based on luck..

Also, the is a racist undertone in this thread which trys to say that in-fact all Black people( for some reason racist want to focus on this minority alone) did not get into medical school on their own merit... I SAY BULL****, IT IS NOT TRUE....

GET A LIFE AND GROWN UP BITxCHES

 

[Old_Mil]

For some odd reasons, they only consider you a minority if you are of African American descent.

Boooooo Crap!

You get credit for being a minority if you're native american or hispanic, too.

 

[drgoro]

Well I'll give some perspective to this thread, form the stand-point of an under-represented minority. Before judgement is passed onto the unfair nature of the admissoins policies, one should consider what many UMR had to go though to get that measly grade, the hardship that many of us faced on a daily basis while growing up or even now. Statistically speaking, yes URM do have lower scores on average, however when you consider that while some of you where working your asses off to get great grades, we were workign our asses off while also worried about how their brother that got shot last week, or why is it that I can't get a >$6 /hr job to eat some food and properly sustain myself while going through college (as just two examples of what is REAL to us), I think we do a pretty good job. Still I will be the first to mention that a minimum standard should always be maintained in any discipline to study. That difference in score is also factoring in that yes we have a tad bit more on our plate to deal with than the average white or non-URM person. It becomes the other factors in life that are outside the sheltering walls of academia that also whispers haunting messages of failure to the weary ones that eventually falter. To the general public here at SDn, have you ever truly experienced a bias (beyond the topic at hand) that have left you speechless due to its brazen nature? If you have, picture that same moment multiply it by every day of your life, factor in the thought racism is still very much alive ( yes, saw it last week in TN) but hidden and then ask yourself, what the hell do I really know about that URM that got in?..... If allowing an URM in with lower grades bothers you, you have way too much time on your hands and should just find other ways to expend you energy. Over hearing what some white kids had for a serious discussion over lunch was an adequate reflection of the differences within the socitey. Their concern: "I wonder if I should get that new camry," my concern " I wonder if I can get an emergeny loan, since my grandfather has just died, and my family will need that financial help(needless to say no trust funds here to even secure my following semester)."

 

[anothertbmember]

You make a good point goro, but there are flaws.

Not all minorities that get in are poor. That's one reason people complain. People say "Don't generalize that certain people are poor, thats insensitive," and then the next moment say "You need to let minorities in because they are economically disadvantaged."

I grew up in Mexico. I ate rice and beans for a couple weeks straight because that is all we had to eat. When I moved to the US we didn't have money. I worked through HS and played sports, had a phenomenal GPA and SAT. It wasn't easy. At times I was only getting 6 hours of sleep a night, but it can be done. This made it a lot easier for me to get the scholarships I needed to make college not financially difficult. I did well in undergrad and did well on the MCAT. If I posted my stats I think pretty much everyone who knows anything about the numbers would agree I got in on merit, not the fact that I am Mexican. I am now getting a scholarship in part because of those stats and the fact that I am hispanic. I like getting the money, but if I got into school without the merit behind it I would feel pretty crappy about taking some other kid's spot. There's no way around it.

That's my point of view as a URM.

 

[nala]

...however when you consider that while some of you where working your asses off to get great grades, we were workign our asses off while also worried about how their brother that got shot last week, or why is it that I can't get a >$6 /hr job to eat some food and properly sustain myself while going through college (as just two examples of what is REAL to us), I think we do a pretty good job. ......Over hearing what some white kids had for a serious discussion over lunch was an adequate reflection of the differences within the socitey. Their concern: "I wonder if I should get that new camry," my concern " I wonder if I can get an emergeny loan, since my grandfather has just died, and my family will need that financial help(needless to say no trust funds here to even secure my following semester)."

I worked 3 jobs every semester of college, almost 40 hours a week, to make ends meet and I pulled a 3.8...Both my grandparents died and I had a sibling who was in and out of rehab after nearly killing herself with drugs. I take out the maximum loans and then some to make ends meet in med school - absolutely no trust fund or anything like that of any kind. It drives me insane when I hear kids saying things like...."I can't decide if my parents should buy or lease my next car..." They have no clue. I am not in any way trying to diminish your experiences. I'm just saying that there are plenty of white kids who have had to work their way through school on their own too.

 

[drgoro]

Point is well taken, and appreciated. I apologize if anyone was offended.

 

[OzDDS]

Yeah.. what about all the white trash kids who live in goverment housing. They come from the same background as the one you were trying to claim. Yet they have it even harder, because they are still considered "white". So of course they don't have anyone looking out for them.

 

[drgoro]

Yeah.. what about all the white trash kids who live in goverment housing. They come from the same background as the one you were trying to claim. Yet they have it even harder, because they are still considered "white". So of course they don't have anyone looking out for them.

Yes and while I understand that whithin the scope of numbers there will be a few white people living in govt' living quarters, compare that to the RATIO of URM that live these same areas, and I assure you the differences will startle you. Of course there will always be exceptions, that is a given in life, tehrefore I feel sad for the white kid that is busting his ass to get the grade. I lived across from one one of these gov't housing 'facilities' and I will tell you FROM EXPERIENCE that I knew no white kids there, everyone was either black or hispanic. This is the norm from what I saw living in SC for 4 years. Still the issue at hand is if URM have an admission advantage and again I beg to ask or challenge to you the question, 'would any of the non-URM students here trade your life thus far,if you could, for that which some of us URM have gone through for this so-called advanatge?'

 

[OzDDS]

Yes and while I understand that whithin the scope of numbers there will be a few white people living in govt' living quarters, compare that to the RATIO of URM that live these same areas, and I assure you the differences will startle you.

There are also lots of immigrants too.. from cambodia, laos, mexico, Blacks, and YES many whites too (I have seen many, I don't think this is the exception.. maybe it depends on what area of the US your from.) The only people AA helps who are all from this very SAME background. Are the BLacks.. and maybe mexicans. Everyone else is screwed because of their ethnicity.

I agree with Delcrys.. that if you are going to put money and effort into helping people.. Help everyone.. not just one or two groups. Nothing but reverse instituionalized racism. What you should do is improve schooling and assitance from the start. If someone desires to work hard and earn their way into medical school or whatever. Have goverment assitance programs and tutoring available to them for free or reduced costs, instead of just lowing the bar for people of certain skin pigmentation.

 

[delchrys]

for every ghetto populated with primarily "minorities," there are many times that number of trailer parks and uber-poor rural communities of primarily white people. places where kids share a toothbrush and don't have shoes.

all i'm saying, and all i've BEEN saying, is that you screw individuals like those white kids i'm referring to when AA is the order of the day, all in favor of some ideal that people in schools and professional fields should represent the racial distribution in the population. race-based systems like this are RACIST by their very definition. any attempt to put another face on it is nothing more than excuse-making.

 

[1Path]

for every ghetto populated with primarily "minorities," there are many times that number of trailer parks and uber-poor rural communities of primarily white people. places where kids share a toothbrush and don't have shoes.

Poor whites can apply for med school as DISADANTAGED and from what I understand, this allows them the same "advantages" as folks who apply as a URM.

So I guess you're next proposition will be that succesfully rising up from a poor background shouldn't be considered in med school admissions either.

 

[delchrys]

Poor whites can apply for med school as DISADANTAGED and from what I understand, this allows them the same "advantages" as folks who apply as a URM.

So I guess you're next proposition will be that succesfully rising up from a poor background shouldn't be considered in med school admissions either.

no, that won't be my proposition, as i think economic background is a huge factor in how a person develops.

your understanding, however, is incorrect.

if poor folks get URM-level treatment, then why do you still think blackness should qualify one for special treatment, even if one's black parents are multi-millionaires?

 

[Hoya11]

Look at it this way, if you did not have any AA, the adcoms would be completely at will to admit whoever they want, undeniably a huge power.

I mean regardless of any changes that may happen, the system will never be totally prefect in the sense that the "best" candidate will always get in, there will always be some room for determining what is "best", and if left up to the adcoms, what stops Dr. McRacist from letting in only white males?

We are talking about Med school here guys, with doctors who have been around since there were no women allowed in medicine, let alone minorities. These same teachers who are teaching me are the ones who did pelvic exams on unconsious women as demos for their students. We cant leave important social decisions up to these people, ie who gets in.

And dont forget that racial segregation was common less than 50 years ago.
Honestly, many of the doctors and adcoms here lived during that time. DId they protest? What were there feelings on equal rights for all races? Who knows! YOu cant just assume these are normal, righteous people who have all this power, the power of admission.

Second, If you go with a purely economic advantage system, how could this be possible? How much money am I worth? I like most other college grades am deeply in debt. Am I poor even though my parents make a lot of money and give it to me? If i tell you they dont give me money, but they really do, am I disadvanted? There are just so many moore loopholes and ways to lie about money as opposed to race. What about someone with rich parents who are dinguses and give them no money? The classic example of how this would fail.

And honestly, while its not perfect and while most minorities admitted to med schools are probably way richer than average, URM Status represents the poorest races accurately. So, why dont chinese irisih italians get no help? Becasue the system is NOT race-based, it is INDIRECTLY poverty based, and this indirect correlation is what is exploited.

 

[1Path]

then why do you still think blackness should qualify one for special treatment, even if one's black parents are multi-millionaires?

"Blackness" is a huge issue in this society at large, and I believe it goes by the name of racism. Besides taht obvious fact, having money has NEVER, EVER excused a black person from having to deal with racism, as any number of wealthy blacks can testifly.

People have the RIGHT to have access to physicians they are comfortable with because whether or not you believe this, patient comfort CAN translate directly into the quality of patient care. And this is what diversity is all about!

 

[pillowhead]

"Blackness" is a huge issue in this society at large, and I believe it goes by the name of racism. Besides taht obvious fact, having money has NEVER, EVER excused a black person from having to deal with racism, as any number of wealthy blacks can testifly.

People have the RIGHT to have access to physicians they are comfortable with because whether or not you believe this, patient comfort CAN translate directly into the quality of patient care. And this is what diversity is all about!

Do you believe this is true of white people who refuse to be seen by a black physician?

 

[Perrin]

Well I'll give some perspective to this thread, form the stand-point of an under-represented minority. Before judgement is passed onto the unfair nature of the admissoins policies, one should consider what many UMR had to go though to get that measly grade, the hardship that many of us faced on a daily basis while growing up or even now. Statistically speaking, yes URM do have lower scores on average, however when you consider that while some of you where working your asses off to get great grades, we were workign our asses off while also worried about how their brother that got shot last week, or why is it that I can't get a >$6 /hr job to eat some food and properly sustain myself while going through college (as just two examples of what is REAL to us), )

Wow. I fail to see how your brother getting shot has anything to do with this. Do the relatives of URM's have a higher chance of getting shot??? As for the money/job/food excuse, I don't buy into that. I've had to work 1 and sometimes 2 jobs (none of which paid more than$6) just to afford my rent and bills. I recieved loans(available to anyone) from the gub-ment to pay my tuition. All of my friends have had to do the same. Don't give me this crap about how hard it is for you.

I think we do a pretty good job. Still I will be the first to mention that a minimum standard should always be maintained in any discipline to study. That difference in score is also factoring in that yes we have a tad bit more on our plate to deal with than the average white or non-URM person. It becomes the other factors in life that are outside the sheltering walls of academia that also whispers haunting messages of failure to the weary ones that eventually falter.

Awwww, how poetic of you. Most of the faculty at my school are pretty liberal and most of them are proponents of AA. Case in point, the architecture school were I went gave out scholarships every year. My 3rd year, they gave all the scholarships to african-americans. That's fine with me. Except that, only african americans in my class, and every one of them, recieved the scholarships (they are open to everyone). Then, when the dean was announcing them, he didn't even know their gender or who they were. You would think that in a class of 35 people, the dean would be able to recognize some of them. One of the recipients didn't even show up for studio for a month and barely managed to pull a D that semester.

Over hearing what some white kids had for a serious discussion over lunch was an adequate reflection of the differences within the socitey. Their concern: "I wonder if I should get that new camry," my concern " I wonder if I can get an emergeny loan, since my grandfather has just died, and my family will need that financial help(needless to say no trust funds here to even secure my following semester)."

Don't paint me with that "all white people are trust fund babies" brush. Sounds like someone is jealous of people who have it easier in life. I guess we should "knee-cap" them to make it fair for you. I've been jealous of people who didn't have a care in the world other than which Carribbean Island to visit over spring break. But, you know, It made me want to work even harder.

You need to quit your b*tching and deal with the curves that life throws you.

 

[1Path]

Do you believe this is true of white people who refuse to be seen by a black physician?

What I know FOR SURE is that minoritiy men, especially black men, training in Ob/Gyn deal with a hell I could NEVER imagine. It seems that quite a few people have a big problem with their wives/girlfriends being examined by a black male Ob/Gyn. This is the reason why it's a little known fact that black men desiring careers in Ob/Gyn are encouraged to get that training at an HBCU (and yes I know a young black male dealing with this issue now, along with stories from a male cousin who is an Ob/Gyn). Kinda makes you wonder what the REAL issue behind this REALLY is? Now what was your question again?

Common people, lets take the "blind folds" off!!!

 

[pillowhead]

What I know FOR SURE is that minoritiy men, especially black men, training in Ob/Gyn deal with a hell I could NEVER imagine. It seems that quite a few people have a big problem with their wives/girlfriends being examined by a black male Ob/Gyn. This is the reason why it's a little known fact that black men desiring careers in Ob/Gyn are encouraged to get that training at an HBCU (and yes I know a young black male dealing with this issue now, along with stories from a male cousin who is an Ob/Gyn). Kinda makes you wonder what the REAL issue behind this REALLY is? Now what was your question again?

Common people, lets take the "blind folds" off!!!

You completely did not answer my question. I do not deny that it is difficult for any man wanting to train as an ob/gyn and probably moreso for a black man. I also think and hope that more women just want to see the most qualified and compassionate doctor they can.

Now, please answer my previous question. If it's okay for a black patient to feel uncomfortable with a white doctor and to prefer being seen by a black doctor, is it okay for a white patient to feel the same way about a black doctor?

 

[anothertbmember]

What I know FOR SURE is that minoritiy men, especially black men, training in Ob/Gyn deal with a hell I could NEVER imagine. It seems that quite a few people have a big problem with their wives/girlfriends being examined by a black male Ob/Gyn. This is the reason why it's a little known fact that black men desiring careers in Ob/Gyn are encouraged to get that training at an HBCU (and yes I know a young black male dealing with this issue now, along with stories from a male cousin who is an Ob/Gyn). Kinda makes you wonder what the REAL issue behind this REALLY is? Now what was your question again?

Common people, lets take the "blind folds" off!!!

Good job making pillowhead's point for him. You are saying that it's okay to have black people only want to be seen by black people, but it is not okay for white people to only want to be seen by white people. That's a double standard. You hold a double standard.

 

[1Path]

If it's okay for a black patient to feel uncomfortable with a white doctor and to prefer being seen by a black doctor, is it okay for a white patient to feel the same way about a black doctor?

If a muslim woman wants a muslim or woman Ob/Gyn, then I think it's ok and she SHOULD have her choice available. I personally have no problems with a person's preferences. However, it's much more difficult for a black person who wants/prefers a black doctor to find one. I know that my 93 year-old grandmother would NOT have been comfortable with a young white male doctor doing her breast exams because of the time SHE grew up in (1920's). And I suspect the same is probably true of YOUR grandmother. The HUGE DIFFERENCE is that your grandmother has PLENTY of white male/female doctors to choose from while mine did not.

So as you can see, there's NO double standard as you guys seem to like to create whenever someone presents a different point of view.

Perhaps to test my little theory, why don't you guys ask your Moms how they would feel about having a black male do their Gyn exams. Then ask your Dads the same question. Perhaps now you'll have an idea of just how far we really are away from gathering around the campfire singing Kumbaya.

 

[pillowhead]

If a muslim woman wants a muslim or woman Ob/Gyn, then I think it's ok and she SHOULD have her choice available. I personally have no problems with a person's preferences. However, it's much more difficult for a black person who wants/prefers a black doctor to find one. I know that my 93 year-old grandmother would NOT have been comfortable with a young white male doctor doing her breast exams because of the time SHE grew up in (1920's). And I suspect the same is probably true of YOUR grandmother. The HUGE DIFFERENCE is that your grandmother has PLENTY of white male/female doctors to choose from while mine did not.

So as you can see, there's NO double standard as you guys seem to like to create whenever someone presents a different point of view.

Perhaps to test my little theory, why don't you guys ask your Moms how they would feel about having a black male do their Gyn exams. Then ask your Dads the same question. Perhaps now you'll have an idea of just how far we really are away from gathering around the campfire singing Kumbaya.

So you're saying it is okay for both patients, black and white, to only want to see doctors of their own race? I want to make sure I'm not putting words in your mouth because despite the rhetoric, I don't think you're being very candid about what you really think. If that's the case, I just think it's kind of sad. For both races.

If that's okay only for the black patient but not the white, then obviously, that's a double standard. And yes, it is true that the black patient will have a harder time finding a black doctor than the white patient will finding a white doctor, but even if medical school make-up perfectly mirrored society, that would still be true.

My family doctor growing up was a huge, morbidly obese black man. My dad loved him because he had the same name as my dad and he never told my dad to lose weight (he needed to). he was by far the best doctor I've ever had. His solo practice was sooooo busy--it was tough to get an appointment. He took care of my mom's ob/gyn stuff and definitely saw me and my sister through adolescence. He was so excited I told him I was going to his alma mater for undergrad, esp b/c I was pre-med waaaay back when in high school. My mom is white but my dad isn't white (or black), so I don't think he gave two hoots about what race the doctor was who was examining his family. And this is in suburban Atlanta which isn't exactly the most racially tolerant/open place on earth. I'm sharing this not so I can say "look how wonderful and open the world is....you're making all these problems up" because I know you're not. (Race problems are absolutely real and present in this society, but I think there's plenty of blame to go around in the white and black communities for that in 2005.) I'm sharing this because I think people need to just take a step back and just appreciate people for who they are and that even in the deep south, excellent patient-doctor relationships can and do exist between people of different races.

 

[1Path]

So you're saying it is okay for both patients, black and white, to only want to see doctors of their own race? I want to make sure I'm not putting words in your mouth because despite the rhetoric, I don't think you're being very candid about what you really think. If that's the case, I just think it's kind of sad. For both races.

I agree it's sad but we can't argue with the reality of the world we live in. I prefer a female Ob/Gyn and thanks to AA, I can have my choice least we forget that AA has benfitted white women more than any other group. However, I prefer my Harvard trained black dermatologist because she simply knows more about the care of black skin. Does this make me racist? I doubt it since my hairdresser is the whitest white woman I've ever seen!!!

excellent patient-doctor relationships can and do exist between people of different races.

Of course they do, but how common do you really think this type of openmindedness really is?

Geez guys. The OP asked a rather simple question. Are there advantages for minorities who apply to MS in compared to their non-minority counterparts? The answer is obviously YES. Just look at AAMC website or ask some of your black colleagues about their MCAT score. What else is there to discuss. This thread could have ended long ago with a YES.

You're absolutely right. from the AAMC website:

Black acceptance rate = 0.41%
White = 0.52
Native American = 0.28
Asian = 0.48

So the answer to the OP's question is that not one minority group in the US has any admissions advantages despite the well known fact that Asians outscore every racial group. The fact is that URM's are more likely to have factors other than GPA/MCAT evaluated when considering their applications as they should.

 

[pillowhead]

I agree it's sad but we can't argue with the reality of the world we live in. I prefer a female Ob/Gyn and thanks to AA, I can have my choice least we forget that AA has benfitted white women more than any other group. However, I prefer my Harvard trained black dermatologist because she simply knows more about the care of black skin. Does this make me racist? I doubt it since my hairdresser is the whitest white woman I've ever seen!!!

Of course they do, but how common do you really think this type of openmindedness really is?

I think if everyone assumes this type of openness is not common, then it never will be. I don't know...maybe I'm naive. My family is pretty racially diverse. Europe, Asia, and Africa all represented. Was everything always wonderful with no problems? HELL NO! But (most) people eventually got over it with time after the inital shock of who was marrying who (from WHERE??!! he's WHAT color??!!) wore off. I guess I think if it can work in a family that has to share lives together, it should be able to work between neighbors and co-workers who really need to have far less in common.

AA historically has helped white women more than any other group, true. I don't think it still does though. And no, I definitely don't think it makes someone racist because they see a hairdresser or dermatologist who knows more about their skin and hair type. Seeing my white cousin with her thin stringy hair trying to deal with her daughter's hair (her father is African) is pretty funny. She's totally given up at this point and just takes her to the hairdresser every few weeks instead. Poor girl...all the photos of her before three or four years old look pretty funny.

 

[delchrys]

However, I prefer my Harvard trained black dermatologist because she simply knows more about the care of black skin. Does this make me racist? I doubt it since my hairdresser is the whitest white woman I've ever seen!!!

ah, yes, and yet those white guys who have objections to black males being their white wive's OB/GYNs (despite those doctors' COMPLETE lack of knowledge of what it is like to be female or white) is racist and unacceptable. i guess, though, if they find a mexican to clean their gutters, that means they're not racist...at least it does according to the "1Path hairdresser proof of non-racist intent."

you are seriously one of the most openly-racist (and unashamed of it) people I've ever communicated with.