Do Minorites have admission advantages?

[1Path]

ah, yes, and yet those white guys who have objections to black males being their white wive's OB/GYNs (despite those doctors' COMPLETE lack of knowledge of what it is like to be female or white) is racist and unacceptable. i guess, though, if they find a mexican to clean their gutters, that means they're not racist...at least it does according to the "1Path hairdresser proof of non-racist intent.".

There is big difference between having a "preference"(NOT racist since you could accept a person of a difference race) and having an "objection"(very racist since you'd NEVER accept a person of a difference race). But I guess if you knew that you'd could get a decent verbal MCAT score and not have to worry about losing "your" seat in med school to a severly underqualified URM.

After having an intelliigent conversation with someone on this subject, I'm FINALLY done wasting time on you. Good luck on the MCAT!

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[delchrys]

There is big difference between having a "preference"(NOT racist since you could accept a person of a difference race) and having an "objection"(very racist since you'd NEVER accept a person of a difference race). But I guess if you knew that you'd could get a decent verbal MCAT score and not have to worry about losing "your" seat in med school to a severly underqualified URM.

After having an intelliigent conversation with someone on this subject, I'm FINALLY done wasting time on you. Good luck on the MCAT!

hmmm...

objecting is having opposition to a given set of circumstances (having a doctor of a certain race). preferring is desiring a given set of circumstances (having a doctor of a certain race).

you prefer a black dermatologist, thus, you desire to have a black derm.
some white people object to a black OB/GYN, thus, they desire to not have a black OB/GYN.

if one is presented with several choices, and one chooses one option over the others, then implicit in the desire for the chosen option is the desire to not have the unchosen options. the same is true in reverse: implicit in the desire to not have certain of the options is the desire TO have those options or that option which is not the unchosen option.

in other words, phrase it how you like, but semantics games are pathetic attempts at avoiding the point and obfuscating. your desire for a black derm is simultaneously an expression of your desire to NOT have a derm of any other race. a white person's desire to not have a black OB/GYN is simultaneously an expression of their desire to have a white OB/GYN. i realize that you'd prefer to see the white person's choice as an exclusion of the black doctors only (i.e., you'd argue that they want an asian doc, indian doc, or hispanic doc just as much as a white one), but that would be false. it is a generally true principle that people tend to feel more comfortable associating with members of their own group, whether racial, ethnic, religious, or otherwise. either that's racist or it's not, but you don't get to call it one thing when applied to your decisions, and call it another when applied to the decisions of white people. to do THAT, Path1, is true racism.

i'm glad you got into a medical education program bolstered by the fact that you're black, and that you're proud of that. with luck, you'll get into a residency program over many evil white people despite your low board scores. i hope that your misdiagnoses are overlooked because of your disadvantaged background, and that the hospital fires evil white people instead of you, since the hospital will understand the plight of the black people in america and be working to correct the evils perpetrated on blacks for the last several hundred years. i hope you will practice pathology with lots of patients who are also black, so they feel more comfortable being with you...oh, wait, you'll be in a lab, not talking to patients...guess that's yet another one of the weak pseudoarguments you've tried to put forth in this thread that is totally inapplicable to your situation.

do you ask your white friends (i'm sure you have some of those, since you're not racist and that's the ultimate proof of non-racism) to let you win in games because of all you've struggled through on account of your heritage? does it feel good to win trivial pursuit after you get some questions wrong and your opponents just say "it's okay, it's harder for you to get them right--your'e black"???

you can't have your cake and eat it too, which is precisely what you're trying to do here.

last thing...when you choose to rip on someone for being bad at english (which what you did with your mcat comment), try to spell things correctly that you put in that same sentence. "severly" might be a word somewhere else, but not here. it's "severely." kthxbye.

 

[smkoepke]

so, in 30 years, can my kids come and bitch that they need special stepladders to reach their dreams, on account of all the anti-white racism that's being authorized by the government today? how about we just end the cycle of idiocy now by making everyone have to get by on their QUALIFICATIONS independent of race???? or is someone scared they won't cut it?

ok i don't necessarily agree with AA (was an idealistic dream that went wrong a long time ago), but you can't equate 10-20 yrs of med schools reserving a few seats for minorities to 400 years of kidnapping, raping, pilaging, beating, murdering and enslavement. You also can't equate it with the 100 years after slavery "ended" of jim crow, no civil rights, separate/not equal, lynchings etc..., now i personally don't believe in living in the past, and I work hard to make sure that I "know" my acheivements are purely mine, and not out of a misguided attempt from the government to "improve" me, but to try to compare med school admissions of URM's to the COMPLETE oppresion of an entire race that went on for years and only "legally" ended 40 yrs ago is ludacris. I agree with whoever stated that we need to improve or level the playing field at the elementary level, all students regardless of background should have good teachers, resources, computers, libraries with updated books and enrichment programs to lead to student success at an early age. This is what will really make the difference in the long run.

 

[hot hot heat]

ok i don't necessarily agree with AA (was an idealistic dream that went wrong a long time ago), but you can't equate 10-20 yrs of med schools reserving a few seats for minorities to 400 years of kidnapping, raping, pilaging, beating, murdering and enslavement. You also can't equate it with the 100 years after slavery "ended" of jim crow, no civil rights, separate/not equal, lynchings etc..., now i personally don't believe in living in the past, and I work hard to make sure that I "know" my acheivements are purely mine, and not out of a misguided attempt from the government to "improve" me, but to try to compare med school admissions of URM's to the COMPLETE oppresion of an entire race that went on for years and only "legally" ended 40 yrs ago is ludacris. I agree with whoever stated that we need to improve or level the playing field at the elementary level, all students regardless of background should have good teachers, resources, computers, libraries with updated books and enrichment programs to lead to student success at an early age. This is what will really make the difference in the long run.

So how long do we coddle a certain group of people because of past transgressions? How about giving some support to the Japenese who were put in internment camps during WW2 and as a result lost all of their belongings and essentially started over in a similarly racist environment. How about giving some support to the Chinese who came over and helped build the railroads and were treated like garbage.

All this special treatment does is create more animosity as it basically says a certain group of people aren't too competent so we'll help push them along. Basically, let's reward mediocrity.

And in terms of slavery and Jim Crow laws, what exactly do todays youth have to do with it? Slvery ended so long ago that they essentially have no concept of it as do most of todays youths. If slavery is such a limiting factor to black youths should we also give them reparations to help right the past wrongs? Giving special preference based solely on race is such a horrible idea.
It is illogical and it basically tells an entire group of people that they are inferior.

But the main argument in the admissions process that has been mentioned before is that URMs don't have to have numbers to get their foot in the door. I always hear how getting into medical school isn't about the numbers, but then why do URMs get that benefit of the doubt? Why are schools willing to look past their numbers yet if a white, east asian, or south asian is applying with lower then normal numbers, they are deemed inadequate. It's pure and simple racism that is reversed.

But sadly because of the competitive nature of the admissions process no URM will complain because they jsut don't care if they get this help as long as they can get theirs. It's only those who are wronged that complain and then it's met a roll of the eyes.

 

[OzDDS]

But sadly because of the competitive nature of the admissions process no URM will complain because they jsut don't care if they get this help as long as they can get theirs. It's only those who are wronged that complain and then it's met a roll of the eyes.

Actually I heard about this nationwide "Affermative Action bake sale" that went on around the country at many university campuses. Basically groups who disagreed with affermative action set up booths and sold cookes and brownies and above the table was a sign that read:

Cookies and brownies for sale..

Asians: $1
Whites: $1
Blacks: $0.50

So basically they were selling the baked goods at half price to the african american community. Well to say the least most of these booths got ransacked and torn apart by an angry mob of blacks on campus. But if you really think about it that did nothing but prove their point, Which was.. look why are you angry about getting a discount? But.. the reaction was the right thing.. You should be angry. The only question is.. why are you not JUST as angry when you are let into medical schools with half the GPA and half the MCAT score required for everyone else. Basically doesnt that just reinforce the idea that your not as capable as everyone else?


Although I disagree with maybe the way they went about it.. it does make you think.

 

[OzDDS]

So how long do we coddle a certain group of people because of past transgressions?

All this special treatment does is create more animosity as it basically says a certain group of people aren't too competent so we'll help push them along. Basically, let's reward mediocrity.

And in terms of slavery and Jim Crow laws, what exactly do todays youth have to do with it? Slvery ended so long ago that they essentially have no concept of it as do most of todays youths. .

Hmm.. Yeah.. I do wonder. How long do they plan on keeping AA around? WHat is their end goal? When will we reach a point (if ever) when promoters of AA say.. "Ok, We're satisfied".. and then remove such programs from existance? What about Historically black medical colleges such as Howard and Meharry? Apperantly these are not sufficient enough?
I really don't think it would be PC to open a new Medical school in this day in age and claim it would founded to only (ok.. predominantly) admit people of a certain race. What if I wanted to create a Medical school for people of Japanese or Cambodian decent? And about reparations to the african american community.. where do you draw the race line.. we are all mixed in this country for a majority. What if my grandfather was african american am I entitled to my payout too? Maybe it would be good to give out reparations if it ment in exchange for it you were going to finally say it is over and done with, and then remove such programs as AA.

 

[smkoepke]

So how long do we coddle a certain group of people because of past transgressions? How about giving some support to the Japenese who were put in internment camps during WW2 and as a result lost all of their belongings and essentially started over in a similarly racist environment. How about giving some support to the Chinese who came over and helped build the railroads and were treated like garbage.

All this special treatment does is create more animosity as it basically says a certain group of people aren't too competent so we'll help push them along. Basically, let's reward mediocrity.

And in terms of slavery and Jim Crow laws, what exactly do todays youth have to do with it? Slvery ended so long ago that they essentially have no concept of it as do most of todays youths. If slavery is such a limiting factor to black youths should we also give them reparations to help right the past wrongs? Giving special preference based solely on race is such a horrible idea.
It is illogical and it basically tells an entire group of people that they are inferior.

But the main argument in the admissions process that has been mentioned before is that URMs don't have to have numbers to get their foot in the door. I always hear how getting into medical school isn't about the numbers, but then why do URMs get that benefit of the doubt? Why are schools willing to look past their numbers yet if a white, east asian, or south asian is applying with lower then normal numbers, they are deemed inadequate. It's pure and simple racism that is reversed.

But sadly because of the competitive nature of the admissions process no URM will complain because they jsut don't care if they get this help as long as they can get theirs. It's only those who are wronged that complain and then it's met a roll of the eyes.

I think you may have missed the point of my post. I stated clearly that i am not a fan of affirmative action. I don't feel that it is appropriate in it's curent state. What I was taking issue with was the idea that a poster was equating a med school reserving a few spots for minorities during the past decade or so, with the across the board oppression of a race for hundreds of years. The 2 just can't be compared. Again I never said i thought AA was right, just didn't like this comparison. It's as innapropriate a comparison as a person who has a broken hand complaining that he has it just as bad as the guy who has broken every bone in his body. Both situations suck but are clearly not equal.

Jim Crow laws affect some students even today because their parents or grandparents who were living with these laws were affected financially and educationally by them. These laws formed the way neighborhoods and school districts and funding were set. These are hard roles to break away from. Some have the mindset and drive to overcome these issues, and I personally feel that at the community and elementary school level is where significant changes need to be made. These students (and this includes all who live in these ares regardless of race) need teachers who are well educated to be able to help them with homework/questions tutoring and so forth, because parents who were prevented from having a real education themselves certainly can't help these students, and this prepetuates the problem. I am getting of onto a soap box though, but it is enough to say that I feel early child education is the real area that will "level the playing field" so to speak.
As far as the rest, their are plenty of minorities currently in med schools that are their on merit, not AA, I personlly have no wish for reparations nor do i know anyone that does. I have never had a handout in my life and I don't think it did the Japanese community any favors doling it out, but it is interesting that certain groups were chosen for it while others were not. (and where is all the outrage over their reparations?) Expecting the great great great grandkids of slave owners to pay the great great great grandkids of slaves is a ridiculous idea and i don't for one minute find it a fair solution.

No admissions process is truly fair. What about a candidate with the exact same stats as another, it's all personal preference as to who gets in. The only fair way to settle a situation like this is the toss all the people with the exact same stats in a hat and start pulling names for award letters. Or institute an application date tie breaker or something.

In any case certainly this is a topic that warrants discussion because we need more ideas on how to change the system, rather all of us just complaing every 2 months on the BB about it.

 

[Docta]

no.

(1) the issue here is the utter hypocrisy of people who claim to be "fighting" racism by using racist AA policies to their "advantage".

(2) i am an advocate only for ABILITY to count in admissions. what the hell does so-and-so's friendship with a dean have to do with ability? nothing. legacy crap is just as uncool as AA. the difference is that legacy shenanigans have nothing to do with race. this doesn't make them good; legacy admissions are bad. but they are totally unrelated to the topic here, though nice try at derailing this conversation.

why can't you address the issue being discussed instead of wandering off down some other path as though the point is to try to "burn" me rather than to address my points? oh yeah, because you don't actually have a useful, intelligent thing to say on the topic.

So then did you vote for George W. Bush? Because you do know that he was a marginal, barely passing student but gained access to Yale as a legacy.

Just curious, what makes you the one to decide whether something is useful on this forum or not? I see no evidence Path1 is trying to burn you, legacy admissions are directly ON topic when it comes to preferential treatment.

Wasn't preferential treament of minorities the topic, or has the topic been just a bitch session on your part about minorites in general?

 

[hot hot heat]

Jim Crow laws affect some students even today because their parents or grandparents who were living with these laws were affected financially and educationally by them. These laws formed the way neighborhoods and school districts and funding were set. These are hard roles to break away from. Some have the mindset and drive to overcome these issues, and I personally feel that at the community and elementary school level is where significant changes need to be made. These students (and this includes all who live in these ares regardless of race) need teachers who are well educated to be able to help them with homework/questions tutoring and so forth, because parents who were prevented from having a real education themselves certainly can't help these students, and this prepetuates the problem. I am getting of onto a soap box though, but it is enough to say that I feel early child education is the real area that will "level the playing field" so to speak.
As far as the rest, their are plenty of minorities currently in med schools that are their on merit, not AA, I personlly have no wish for reparations nor do i know anyone that does.

That's the fallacy of your argument. You're essentially saying because blacks were affected by Jim Crow laws then we should help all blacks, even the middle and higher class ones in the admissions process because they are less competent. Why does someone whose parents make more money then mine but happens to be black get an edge in medical school admissions based solely on their race? That's the BS part of this process. Only economic situations should come into play because the black person who grew up in the suburbs next door to me should not have an advantage over me because of his/her skin color. But if a black person who is applying is from a low income area then that's fine if the special consideration is given only because of economic reasons.

ll AA does is trivialize the accomplishments of URMs and makes me question if every URM that goes to a professional school got in because of their skin color and not their abilities.

Besides everyone is essentially equal at the undergraduate level. Admissions to 4 year colleges is meant to make up for the disparities in elementary and high schools. There should be no special advantages after that point because everyone has the same opportunities in college.

The thing that you seem to be overlooking is that it's not about you. Let it go, and quite frankly issues of slavery, Jim Crow, and the kind of racism that does exist today (see any inner city school district) mean a lot more than whether or not you are admitted to medical school.

People on admissions committees quite frankly do not care about you, especially if you are someone with average or marginal scores. Instead of pointing fingers at the few URMs who are getting accepted with subpar scores as the exception and comparing yourself to THEM, why not look at the average matriculant from your similar background and ethnicity, who make up the vast majority of matriculants and strive to be as good or better than THEY are.

And I challenge any of you to spend a year living and working in the inner city if you think that race doesn't make a difference anymore. Best of luck.

Umm, yes, AA affects all applicants because there are a finite number of spots for such a huge applicant pool.

Thanks for telling me that people on admissions committees don't care about me. I never really knew. THey should strive to make a class of competent individuals. If I do have marginal scores then I should have the same shot as some URM who is the same financially as me yet this isn't the case. Being an URM is like a free ride to having AdComs looking past your numbers. Why is that? That's the inherent unfairness in the process. If you are a URM then you will get the benefit of the doubt and the committees will look past your numbers. If your white or asian, too bad. Numbers matter to even jsut get your foot in the door.

Why is it that the average matriculant who is an URM have lower stats then whites or asians. Asians have been in this country less then hispanics yet they seem to generally have higher MCATs and GPAs. This process can be intense and if you have the average scores for matriculants every advantage counts and sadly having the right skin color is enough to get you into medical school over an ORM.

And yeah, I have done work with inner city students (largely hispanic) and you know what I find on a daily basis? Students under achieving because their parents don't really push them academically. Why is it that my south asian parents who aren-t college educated pushed me to do well and in the end I did push myself academically? Why are we rewarding mediocrity and essentially saying that because your black or hispanic we know you aren't smart enough or motivated enough to compete with other. Shouldn't we push for higher standards for all races so when they are able to compete no one will be able to question their efforts?

 

[delchrys]

So then did you vote for George W. Bush? Because you do know that he was a marginal, barely passing student but gained access to Yale as a legacy.

Just curious, what makes you the one to decide whether something is useful on this forum or not? I see no evidence Path1 is trying to burn you, legacy admissions are directly ON topic when it comes to preferential treatment.

Wasn't preferential treament of minorities the topic, or has the topic been just a bitch session on your part about minorites in general?

i did not and would never vote for bush. i voted for nader.

as i stated, legacy admissions are absolutely ridiculous, hands down. my point with that particular topic is that they have nothing to do with racism directly, and the topic has racial preferences and whether those are racist or "helpful to right wrongs." you saw the topic as preferential treatment, cool, that's a difference of opinion we have, then. but i think legacy admissions are crap, end of the story, so there we have no disagreement.

where have i "generally bitched about minorities" anywhere in ANY of my posts in my entire time at SDN? part of what drives me nuts in this particular debate is that any opposition to AA is construed by proponents of AA as racism. it's the infinitely laughable hypocrisy, to be a proponent of a system that favors individuals based on their race, while simultaneously calling those who oppose that system 'racist.'

for the record, to the other poster who thought i was trying to narrow the issue to 'about 20 years or so of med school admissions policies,' you are way off--i am referring to preferential hiring for jobs and admissions into ALL academic programs, period. it's all a clear violation of the equal protection clause of the constitution, but politics and emotion muddies the water, and fear of publicly being trashed for speaking out against AA keeps it afloat.

 

[DrDawg]

Stopped reading this thread after the 3rd page

I am on my schools admissions com. and this is what we do.
Everyone is given points based on MCAT, GPA, LOR, and the interview. Then the applicants are ranked as the sum of their scores. We offered positions for the top third, and then went through and picked out URM in the middle third and reviewed the interview summary sheet for each. If there were no red flags during the interview, they were offered a position.

I guessing that this is standard practice for most schools. I haven't interviewed applicants since. It is my opinion that AA is fine for undergrad, but after that we are all on the same playing field.

 

[Blade28]

realize that when a person says "members of X race will be able to get into Y program with lower qualifications than members of Z race" they are simultaneously saying "we are going to make it harder for members of Z race to get into Y program, even though the specific people who are applying as members of Z race have done nothing wrong."

am i the only person that sees how clearly this is yet another way of institutionalizing racism?

Well put! I've disagreed with some of your posts in the past (see the sticky in the General Surgery thread ), but I completely agree with you here.

 

[Blade28]

I have to ask...why aren't Asians considered a minority? There are fewer Asians in this country than Hispanics, or African-Americans. Is it because we're not considered "under-represented"? Whose fault is that?

Also...what's wrong with basing AA on socioeconomic status, instead of race? Isn't THAT what they should be aiming for - helping out those with less opportunity and means for a good education?

 

[Docta]

i did not and would never vote for bush. i voted for nader.

as i stated, legacy admissions are absolutely ridiculous, hands down. my point with that particular topic is that they have nothing to do with racism directly, and the topic has racial preferences and whether those are racist or "helpful to right wrongs." you saw the topic as preferential treatment, cool, that's a difference of opinion we have, then. but i think legacy admissions are crap, end of the story, so there we have no disagreement.

where have i "generally bitched about minorities" anywhere in ANY of my posts in my entire time at SDN? part of what drives me nuts in this particular debate is that any opposition to AA is construed by proponents of AA as racism. it's the infinitely laughable hypocrisy, to be a proponent of a system that favors individuals based on their race, while simultaneously calling those who oppose that system 'racist.'

for the record, to the other poster who thought i was trying to narrow the issue to 'about 20 years or so of med school admissions policies,' you are way off--i am referring to preferential hiring for jobs and admissions into ALL academic programs, period. it's all a clear violation of the equal protection clause of the constitution, but politics and emotion muddies the water, and fear of publicly being trashed for speaking out against AA keeps it afloat.

Though there are numerous examples on this thread, this quote stands out as the most overtly racist, disregarding the social effects of centuries of living in slavery, followed by centuries more of being denied college education, and actually considering the idea of chalking up disparities to genetic differences in innate intelligence:



QUOTE:

"um, actually, i would like to know at what point you decided without any scientific basis (in fact, in contrast to the existing body of evidence) the above things. is one race darker-skinned than another? is one race more susceptible to certain disorders than others? do members of one race tend to demonstrate certain physical aptitudes that others do not? the answer to each of these questions is yes, yet people somehow think that intelligence is not part of the picture. why? on what scientific basis is this assumption made, particularly when confronted with the mountain of data provided by the studies analyzed in "the bell curve"?"

--delchrys


Opposing AA certainly isn't racist, but posting stuff like this sure as hell IS.

Peace.

 

[PanaRama]

Stopped reading this thread after the 3rd page

I am on my schools admissions com. and this is what we do.
Everyone is given points based on MCAT, GPA, LOR, and the interview. Then the applicants are ranked as the sum of their scores. We offered positions for the top third, and then went through and picked out URM in the middle third and reviewed the interview summary sheet for each. If there were no red flags during the interview, they were offered a position.

I guessing that this is standard practice for most schools. I haven't interviewed applicants since. It is my opinion that AA is fine for undergrad, but after that we are all on the same playing field.

Is this true? That is really harsh and quite frankly unfair. I am bi-racial (black/white) and i don't normally advertise that i don't agree with AA b/c of the retribution i seem to always rec. from my 'URM' friends and famliy.
Well since i started this thread it may only be fair to disclose my opinon. As stated above, i do not agree w/ AA, But have taken advantage of the monies that were aloted to me in my undergrad- which was honestly not alot. I now stand on the threshold of pursing a new career and desire to be treated equally, not coddled and babied. Would i accept a scholarship for Med School based on my race and not my GPA and EC's- i don't know. It wouldn't matter if i made myself a martyr for the cause of 'fairness' - I'm sure my fellow students would still think i was given a hand out if i got in without a stellar GPA, MCAT etc. I see both sides of the fence, literally, and i can't persuade myself that AA is right. I think the orig. intent needs to be re-analyzed. Do i think theer will be less URM's in Med Schools if this polocy was to be abolished-possibly. But is that really the point here. I can only speak of the URM race that i know which is black. How do we expect to gain respect from other races when we refuse to stand on our two feet and pull ourselves up in society by our pure will and tenacity. I know that there are setbacks and racism, but one must not 'punish' another race so we can 'get what is owed to us.' Our next breathe is not 'owed' to the whole human race- how dare we put that stipulation on another race. I believe AA had its role to play in the past but just like the welfare system- sometimes old policies need to be changed or done away with. It is costing us way to much in self respect and i think we may have adopted a beggers' hand mentality. Now i know that somebody will say ' I'm an URM and i don't want a handout' Well good for you I just wish everyone felt that way. Now that i have added my 0.02, I have a real concern that i don't think there is an easy answer to. If you are a current Medical Student plz answer the following question..... How do you honestly view the URM's in your class? Do you wonder what was the reason for thier acceptance or does it not really make a diffrence to you? I personally want to gain acceptance based on my academia not my race. I can't help if an adcom see's me and says "well she is mediocore BUT she is 1/2 black and that is all we need to label her as an URM for addmission- oh AND we can boost that we have a diverse student body which is oh so PC. " Boy would i feel pimped Anyways i would like to know if URM's are coddled in Med school ie. given extra help etc.?


PS. I read the sticky on Medical School Admin. and was frankly embarassed that URM's can knock 5-7 points from thier qualifying score and STILL be on better footing than a non-URM when applying to say HARVARD How do any URM's reading this post feel about this injustice?


Sorry for the long post

 

[Preet]

There will always be a arguments over AA. All I know is if there wasn’t any AA, we wouldn’t see too many minorities (or others who are not considered minorities, but still are non-white) in academic institutions or acquiring degrees. Even with high scholastic aptitude, minorities may not have been admitted in colleges because most of the people on admission committees were not minorities. Not until we had AA to impose and require or mandate certain numbers of non-white applicants be admitted, did we see rise in admissions of non-whites. Until then, non-whites were underrepresented in many areas. That is why they came up with AA I assume.

I would like to say that Punjabi women should be considered disadvantaged or URM. There are not enough Punjabi women in medicine. Many Punjabi women, even those who reside in the US are not encouraged to go to school because the culture is very restrictive. I know of many Punjabi women in central valley (CA) that are forced to marry at a very young age. This has nothing to do with scholastic achievement, as many do really well in school. But because they don’t have the means to go to school, they never get the opportunity to prove themselves. I don’t think there have been that many Punjabi women who received MDs at US schools in the last 5 years.

Panda Bear and oompaloompa: I don’t know if anyone had a chance to correct you yet. People who call themselves Indians from South Asia are indeed “Indians” and not imposters. You need to brush up on your history. It is interesting how many people consider themselves Americans but don’t know much of American History. Columbus was looking for India when he found the Americas. He assumed the people were “Indians” because he thought he was in India for trade. Later, when it was realized that it was the America that was discovered, the labels of “American Indians” and “Native Americans” were used. The term “Indians” has always been used to describe the original Indians not the ones with mistaken identity. I hope this clears the issue and there will be no more ignorant comments in the future.

 

[1Path]

I can't help if an adcom see's me and says "well she is mediocore BUT she is 1/2 black and that is all we need to label her as an URM for addmission-

As I see it, you've answered your own question about being admitted to med school. If YOU think you're mediocre, then perhaps you haven't earned a seat.
By classifying yourself as such, you've essentially fed into the idea that MCATS'/GPA's ALONE make ONLY minorities qualified or unqualified.

PS. I read the sticky on Medical School Admin. and was frankly embarassed that URM's can knock 5-7 points from thier qualifying score and STILL be on better footing than a non-URM when applying to say HARVARD How do any URM's reading this post feel about this injustice?

I've NEVER understood what there is to be embarrased about. Do you people realize that throughout the histpory of this country, racist factions here have ALWAYS found ways to make people of color seem inferior in some way or another? Ever heard of the Tuskeegee Expereiment???
I suspect my grandmother who was denied a high school education at the local high school because of her race, always felt pride in what she WAS able to do. I suspect my mother who was denied admission to UNC-Chapel Hill because of her race always felt pride in what she WAS able to do. And I, a graduate of an intergrated high school AND UNC-Chapel Hill always fell pride about what I'm able to do. As a person of color, to feel otherwise is a huge slap in the face to those who DIED making sure we had opportunities denied to our ancestors.

 

[1Path]

Panda Bear and oompaloompa: I don’t know if anyone had a chance to correct you yet. People who call themselves Indians from South Asia are indeed “Indians” and not imposters. You need to brush up on your history. It is interesting how many people consider themselves Americans but don’t know much of American History. Columbus was looking for India when he found the Americas. He assumed the people were “Indians” because he thought he was in India for trade. Later, when it was realized that it was the America that was discovered, the labels of “American Indians” and “Native Americans” were used. The term “Indians” has always been used to describe the original Indians not the ones with mistaken identity. I hope this clears the issue and there will be no more ignorant comments in the future.

 

[ice_23]

1path,

But what about other minorities? Didn't Japanese people lose quite a bit in WWII internment camps? Weren't Chinese people exploited and forced to build a lot of the railroad infrastructure we see today? Should it simply be about blacks and hispanics and native americans? Shouldn't it be more about economic status, in this day and age?

Also, the "experiment" alluded to by another poster is interesting here. Would you accept an apple for only 50 cents because you're a URM while other minorities and whites have to buy it for 1 dollar? Would you accept the "reparations for past wrongs" so publicly? It would be hard for me to do so, because I'd probably be buying apples on the cheap in front of other people who really haven't done anything to me. Of course, that's completely my opinion.

I WILL say that most poor tend to be minorities and I do not deny that racism is still quite alive. But if we use economic AA, we'll still get those people who will not only tend to be minorities, but also have faced economic hardship (which is what I think AA is trying to do anyway).

-Ice

 

[smkoepke]

That's the fallacy of your argument. You're essentially saying because blacks were affected by Jim Crow laws then we should help all blacks, even the middle and higher class ones in the admissions process because they are less competent. Why does someone whose parents make more money then mine but happens to be black get an edge in medical school admissions based solely on their race? That's the BS part of this process. Only economic situations should come into play because the black person who grew up in the suburbs next door to me should not have an advantage over me because of his/her skin color.

hot there is no fallacy in my argument because i am NOT arguing for AA. That was clearly stated in both of my posts if you go back and look. What I WAS stating is that there are reasons why certain communities are disadvantaged and we need OTHER options to help ALL the students of ALL races who come from those areas. As I stated twice I think this would be accomplished with improved early childhood education in those areas. Let's not get so heated and emotional in our stances that we stop seeing what others actually posted.

 

[1Path]

1path,
But what about other minorities? Didn't Japanese people lose quite a bit in WWII internment camps? Weren't Chinese people exploited and forced to build a lot of the railroad infrastructure we see today? Should it simply be about blacks and hispanics and native americans? Shouldn't it be more about economic status, in this day and age?

Please note that I spoke of black AND people of color. Furthermore the reaosn it shouldn't be about just economic status is because racism is alive and well in this country.

And I think it's always so interesting to hear of people speak of improvement in early childhood educatioon but as an educated parent of an elementary age children, allow me to share with you why this idea won't work due to racism in this country.

The president of the Maryland Teachers Association (a white woman) recently stated that the biggest factor in why minority children in Maryland don't perform as well in school as white childen is because the TEACHES HAVE LOWER EXPECTATIONS OF MINORITY CHILDREN. NOT SES, NOT being raised in a single parent home, but lower standards being set for minority children based purely on thier race. Let me give it to you another way, my daugher has 2 parents with master's degrees (1 scientist/1 engineer). She is naturally shy and was declared gifted when she was about 4 years old . Yet despite this and because she's was VERY shy, her kindergardten teacher wanted to put in the class with mentally disabled students. And she made this assesment after the first week of school and it was NOT based on ANY testing. Now because I'm educated, I could prevent that label from being wrongly placed on her that would have essentially followed her to high school and pretty much guarenteed that college was no where in her future. But what about the child of color this happens to that has parents who can't take time off from work to meet with the principle, or that doen't speak english very well, ect.ect??

Here's how it usually breaks down when you're a child of color dealing with the early childhood educational system in the US. If your child is quiet, then he/she must be mentally ******ed. If he/she is talkative, he/she must have ADD and need ritalin. This is what I along with the parents of color have concluded after dealing with the "system" for the past 4 years. Improving the early childhood education of minority children needs to begin with the teachers having an open mind abouth the talent of thier students. And trust me as a former teacher in an inner city school, when you make your kids feel good about themselves , they'll meet you half-way by doing their very best.

Also, the "experiment" alluded to by another poster is interesting here. Would you accept an apple for only 50 cents because you're a URM while other minorities and whites have to buy it for 1 dollar?

If I'm hungry, I'm going to do whatever I can short of stealing to eat. What you don't seem to get is that if I "eat" the 50cent apple, I'll have the "nourshment" needed to provide for my family and in doing so, I'm also providing the foundation that may allow my children to grow their own dam apple trees!!!

 

[hauihad]

I didn't want to get into this thread...but I completely agree with the above post. Growing up as a "black" student was tough for me. I always had to prove myself to the teachers, because they just automatically assumed i would perform poorly. It didn't help being the only black student in my GT classes from grades 4-12. There were many many instances where teachers flat out told me they were surprised by how "smart" I was, because they had never taught "black" students like me. "Dumb until proven smart" basically. In objectively graded courses such as match and science, this is somewhat easy to overcome, but in subjectively graded courses teachers perceptions of the students plays a huge role. Despite this, I had a 4.0 throughout high school and scored in the 1400's on the SAT. Now I'm 23 and graduated from a top college with a 3.8. I've yet to take the MCAT, but I know that whatever med school I end up at people will automatically assume that I only got in thanks to AA. I'm not saying AA is right. I don't agree with it, but at the same time I don't think that a poor urm has the same educational experience growing up as a poor non-urm child. Should something be done to level the playing field? I honestly don't know. I don't think AA is working the way that is was intended.

 

[delchrys]

Here's how it usually breaks down when you're a child of color dealing with the early childhood educational system in the US. If your child is quiet, then he/she must be mentally ******ed. If he/she is talkative, he/she must have ADD and need ritalin. This is what I along with the parents of color have concluded after dealing with the "system" for the past 4 years. Improving the early childhood education of minority children needs to begin with the teachers having an open mind abouth the talent of thier students. And trust me as a former teacher in an inner city school, when you make your kids feel good about themselves , they'll meet you half-way by doing their very best.

this is not unique to "people of color." again, you make the assumption that adversity is the result of racism and is an experience that is unique to minorities.

 

[delchrys]

Though there are numerous examples on this thread, this quote stands out as the most overtly racist, disregarding the social effects of centuries of living in slavery, followed by centuries more of being denied college education, and actually considering the idea of chalking up disparities to genetic differences in innate intelligence:



QUOTE:

"um, actually, i would like to know at what point you decided without any scientific basis (in fact, in contrast to the existing body of evidence) the above things. is one race darker-skinned than another? is one race more susceptible to certain disorders than others? do members of one race tend to demonstrate certain physical aptitudes that others do not? the answer to each of these questions is yes, yet people somehow think that intelligence is not part of the picture. why? on what scientific basis is this assumption made, particularly when confronted with the mountain of data provided by the studies analyzed in "the bell curve"?"

--delchrys


Opposing AA certainly isn't racist, but posting stuff like this sure as hell IS.

Peace.

what exactly about that post is racist? i asked if there are notable physiological differences between people of different races (there are). i then pointed out that there is a certain presumption against this possibility applying to intelligence. why does that presumption exist? my point was to question that presumption, not to say that the presumption is wrong. you've done nothing more than become yet another story that i can relate when this topic comes up--yet another person who was offended and cried racism when the question was asked "if physiological differences are noted to exist between members of race A and race B, is it possible that there are differences in average levels of intelligence between members of A and B?"

why is that offensive, and how is that racism? if i ask "are mongolian people more likely to develop aortic aneurisms?" that's okay and a worthy investigation, and it's probably going to be said that it's "about time" such a question was asked about such a previously-neglected demographic. when the question turns to intelligence, though, suddenly it's horribly racist?

 

[protooncogenes]

There have been some references to "Indians" in some of the previous posts. Just making sure everyone understands the following:
1. Indians = people of the Indian subcontinent = not considered URM
2. Native Americans are NOT Indians.

So URM's think they've been oppressed and surpressed. Yeah, that would hold true if you were only talking about Native Americans. But it is incredibly wrong to assume that anyone who is not an URM just had opportunity and money handed to them. Many immigrants from Asian countries came to this country 25 years ago with $5 to $10 (yes, with only that much) in their pocket, worked like animals in jobs no one else would take for hours that are considered illegal, and saved the money they earned to move up the economic ladder. Some may have called them penny-pinchers, but these penny-pinchers are the same individuals who today never ask the government for help, pay their taxes, and help society through their hard work. No one looked out for them or their interests. These people were in survival mode for a decade and are only now enjoying their lives. And to say that they never faced discrimination is completely false. I personally know of Asian families (yes, pleural) who wanted to purchase homes in very wealthy areas up and down the East Coast. They were not welcomed by both the realtors and owners. As they walked around the neighborhoods, people honked and drove passed them shouting obscenities. Some of these people eventually found homes in these areas but continue to face discrimination, although this may not have been brought to your attention by the local media or your political representatives. As for their kids getting great early educations, a LOT of them went to inner-city schools, did the metal detector thing daily, sat on the radiators because there were no seats, and shared textbooks because there weren't enough. I've given examples in the context of Asians, but what do you say to some of the white families of Appalachia who live in third world conditions? What do you say to first-generation Europeans who came to this country with almost nothing?

 

[delchrys]

I didn't want to get into this thread...but I completely agree with the above post. Growing up as a "black" student was tough for me. I always had to prove myself to the teachers, because they just automatically assumed i would perform poorly. It didn't help being the only black student in my GT classes from grades 4-12. There were many many instances where teachers flat out told me they were surprised by how "smart" I was, because they had never taught "black" students like me. "Dumb until proven smart" basically. In objectively graded courses such as match and science, this is somewhat easy to overcome, but in subjectively graded courses teachers perceptions of the students plays a huge role. Despite this, I had a 4.0 throughout high school and scored in the 1400's on the SAT. Now I'm 23 and graduated from a top college with a 3.8. I've yet to take the MCAT, but I know that whatever med school I end up at people will automatically assume that I only got in thanks to AA. I'm not saying AA is right. I don't agree with it, but at the same time I don't think that a poor urm has the same educational experience growing up as a poor non-urm child. Should something be done to level the playing field? I honestly don't know. I don't think AA is working the way that is was intended.

as i stated two posts above (i've got three in a row here...the first one that follows your post is the one to which i'm referring), that experience is not unique to black students or minority students in general, but rather to students who are not "the norm" in the educational system in question. i didn't grow up rich by ANY standards, but my best friend grew up WAY poorer than me. WAY. he was in "special ed" classes, wore clothes several sizes too small with stains on them, glasses that were not up to date in terms of the scrip, and had trouble making it to school for a while while his dad battled with an addiction. now, he's a few months from graduating from med school, top 10% of his class. he's white, and lived much of his pre-college life in a trailer park. how his experience is any better than that of a poor black student, i don't understand absent some clear examples. i realize that his teachers weren't saying "i never expected a white boy of primarily polish descent to be so smart!" but he was treated as though he was not expected to do much more than show up some of the time and move on to the next grade so the current teachers would not have to deal with him for mroe than a year.

i just think that there is a presumption today that black and other URM students have faced adversity in some siginificant way that makes their struggle to succeed more intense and makes success more difficult than their white counterparts, and while this might be true on average, it's not true across the board. my point this entire thread has been that as long as white kids like him but who are less lucky in the end, and who don't get into a graduate program or even an undergrad, are turned away while black kids, hispanic kids, or any other URM kid are accepted with the same grades as scores as the rejected white kid, the system is racist and is as unjust as any systematic, government-sanctioned racism in our country's history.

 

[wiryMD]

Please note that I spoke of black AND people of color. Furthermore the reaosn it shouldn't be about just economic status is because racism is alive and well in this country.

And I think it's always so interesting to hear of people speak of improvement in early childhood educatioon but as an educated parent of an elementary age children, allow me to share with you why this idea won't work due to racism in this country.

The president of the Maryland Teachers Association (a white woman) recently stated that the biggest factor in why minority children in Maryland don't perform as well in school as white childen is because the TEACHES HAVE LOWER EXPECTATIONS OF MINORITY CHILDREN. NOT SES, NOT being raised in a single parent home, but lower standards being set for minority children based purely on thier race. Let me give it to you another way, my daugher has 2 parents with master's degrees (1 scientist/1 engineer). She is naturally shy and was declared gifted when she was about 4 years old . Yet despite this and because she's was VERY shy, her kindergardten teacher wanted to put in the class with mentally disabled students. And she made this assesment after the first week of school and it was NOT based on ANY testing. Now because I'm educated, I could prevent that label from being wrongly placed on her that would have essentially followed her to high school and pretty much guarenteed that college was no where in her future. But what about the child of color this happens to that has parents who can't take time off from work to meet with the principle, or that doen't speak english very well, ect.ect??

Here's how it usually breaks down when you're a child of color dealing with the early childhood educational system in the US. If your child is quiet, then he/she must be mentally ******ed. If he/she is talkative, he/she must have ADD and need ritalin. This is what I along with the parents of color have concluded after dealing with the "system" for the past 4 years. Improving the early childhood education of minority children needs to begin with the teachers having an open mind abouth the talent of thier students. And trust me as a former teacher in an inner city school, when you make your kids feel good about themselves , they'll meet you half-way by doing their very best.



If I'm hungry, I'm going to do whatever I can short of stealing to eat. What you don't seem to get is that if I "eat" the 50cent apple, I'll have the "nourshment" needed to provide for my family and in doing so, I'm also providing the foundation that may allow my children to grow their own dam apple trees!!!

You are quite correct, teachers do need to have a more open mind about the talent of their students. But lest we not forget that a teacher is just that, a teacher, not someone who should be making a diagnosis of learning disabled. I would assume that a extremely shy white child might also have their learning abilities questioned in a similar manner. But i must ask, that when your gifted daughter is applying to college, grad school, etc... does it seem right that the persons to whom these admissions standards are set to help, i.e., children who did not have the opportunity to succeed because of racism, and poor schools, etc... are being taken advantage of by your daughter. If you really believe in these policies, which I do not entirely disagree with, then perhaps you should make sure that the admissions committees at your daughters potential schools know that she is a privileged URM, not a member of the group of which AA is meant to help. Maybe they should have a box to check...."Applicant is an URM, but doesn't want a handout"

 

[hauihad]

There have been some references to "Indians" in some of the previous posts. Just making sure everyone understands the following:
1. Indians = people of the Indian subcontinent = not considered URM
2. Native Americans are NOT Indians.

So URM's think they've been oppressed and surpressed. Yeah, that would hold true if you were only talking about Native Americans. But it is incredibly wrong to assume that anyone who is not an URM just had opportunity and money handed to them. Many immigrants from Asian countries came to this country 25 years ago with $5 to $10 (yes, with only that much) in their pocket, worked like animals in jobs no one else would take for hours that are considered illegal, and saved the money they earned to move up the economic ladder. Some may have called them penny-pinchers, but these penny-pinchers are the same individuals who today never ask the government for help, pay their taxes, and help society through their hard work. No one looked out for them or their interests. These people were in survival mode for a decade and are only now enjoying their lives. And to say that they never faced discrimination is completely false. I personally know of Asian families (yes, pleural) who wanted to purchase homes in very wealthy areas up and down the East Coast. They were not welcomed by both the realtors and owners. As they walked around the neighborhoods, people honked and drove passed them shouting obscenities. Some of these people eventually found homes in these areas but continue to face discrimination, although this may not have been brought to your attention by the local media or your political representatives. As for their kids getting great early educations, a LOT of them went to inner-city schools, did the metal detector thing daily, sat on the radiators because there were no seats, and shared textbooks because there weren't enough. I've given examples in the context of Asians, but what do you say to some of the white families of Appalachia who live in third world conditions? What do you say to first-generation Europeans who came to this country with almost nothing?

I agree with the points you brought up, but keep in mind that "black" immigrants face those problems as well. I was born in Africa, and my family came to the US when I was five without a penny. Obscenities?? Try being poor, an immigrant, AND black.

 

[MD'05]

 

[1Path]

But i must ask, that when your gifted daughter is applying to college, grad school, etc... does it seem right that the persons to whom these admissions standards are set to help, i.e., children who did not have the opportunity to succeed because of racism, and poor schools, etc... are being taken advantage of by your daughter.

Does the fact that she is growing up in a priviledged house make her immue to experiencing injustices due to her race??? Because she is a black woman (showing a propensity for science and engineering ), she will likely earn less money than a white man doing the same job. Now is THIS "right"?

Furthermore, aren't you already assuming that she won't be "qualified" since you seem to think she'll have to take "advantages" from poor students? On what basis would you be basing her need to have to take advantage of anything versus her being OVER qualified other than her race?

Those of you that think that eliminating AA will some how make things "right" for everyone are sadly mistaken as much as those who believe AA will make things "right". This country would have to cease to exist as it does to truly make things "right" with all the groups of people who have been "wronged".

 

[MD'05]

Minorities do have admissions advantage. Now shut up and go to the back of the line white boy!

 

[LuckyMD2b]

I'm where I am today as a product of affirmative action. I went to predominantly black public schools until I graduated from high school. I did pretty well in school, but from my point of view, never thought that I would be as good a student as all the white kids who went to school in other towns.

I didn't know those kids and I never had one class with them, but almost everything that I experienced as a child taught me that people at the other schools excelled academically, while at my school if you couldn't shoot a basketball or catch a football then you'd be nothing in life.

I was one of the best students at one of the worst schools in my state, and that got me a ticket on the affirmative action bus to one of the best colleges in the country. I initially didn't want to go, because I knew I wouldn't be able to keep up with all of the rich white kids who went to schools like that. Despite what the people who loved me most told me, I knew that I could never be as smart or hardworking as white kids.

When I got to that college I worked my butt off that first semester because I knew I'd have to work twice as hard just to keep up with everyone else. It paid off. I did really well in college. I got good grades and met people that were different from myself in countless ways. I learned a lot about myself and learned that regardless of the superficial differences people are more alike than they are different. Now I'm going to be a doctor.

I would like to work in an underserved community, I want to help people of every race and who speak different languages. My experience as an affirmative action student at a great college led me to where I am now in life.

As a med student when I speak to white patients it's always in the back of my mind "I wonder if they want me -- this young black kid -- trying to help them; after all they could be racist or think that I'm not that smart because of my skin color." But like I said people are more alike than they are different. I go in there and try to give 100% to every patient I see and most of the time they appreciate it.

Because of where I came from I feel blessed to be where I am now.

I know my story is anecdotal, but I truly believe that there is value in having many different people from different cultures -- and this is the true purpose of affirmative action.

 

[ice_23]

Please note that I spoke of black AND people of color. Furthermore the reaosn it shouldn't be about just economic status is because racism is alive and well in this country.

If I'm understanding you correctly, a white/south asian child/east asian child growing up in chinatown/inner city chicago shouldn't be given the same advantages as a URM because they don't face racism but have had to grow up with economic hardship? So they've gotta compete with everyone else, or apply separately on the application as "disadvantaged" which isn't nearly sanctioned as AA is by the government?

And I think it's always so interesting to hear of people speak of improvement in early childhood educatioon but as an educated parent of an elementary age children, allow me to share with you why this idea won't work due to racism in this country.

The president of the Maryland Teachers Association (a white woman) recently stated that the biggest factor in why minority children in Maryland don't perform as well in school as white childen is because the TEACHES HAVE LOWER EXPECTATIONS OF MINORITY CHILDREN. NOT SES, NOT being raised in a single parent home, but lower standards being set for minority children based purely on thier race. Let me give it to you another way, my daugher has 2 parents with master's degrees (1 scientist/1 engineer). She is naturally shy and was declared gifted when she was about 4 years old . Yet despite this and because she's was VERY shy, her kindergardten teacher wanted to put in the class with mentally disabled students. And she made this assesment after the first week of school and it was NOT based on ANY testing. Now because I'm educated, I could prevent that label from being wrongly placed on her that would have essentially followed her to high school and pretty much guarenteed that college was no where in her future. But what about the child of color this happens to that has parents who can't take time off from work to meet with the principle, or that doen't speak english very well, ect.ect??

How is this any different from other minorities that aren't considered URM's? Hell, I was almost even placed in a "slow class" until my parents explained to the teachers that I didn't understand traditional english fairy tales, rhymes, etc. Instead, I was held a grade back as was my Vietnamese then-best friend (whose parents could not speak english and owned a meager living running a small store). Hmmm....

And trust me as a former teacher in an inner city school, when you make your kids feel good about themselves , they'll meet you half-way by doing their very best.

So, again, how does helping students during elementary school fail again? Just because it fails now? So we shouldn't try now, and try to solely correct things in undergraduate/post-undergraduate study??

If I'm hungry, I'm going to do whatever I can short of stealing to eat. What you don't seem to get is that if I "eat" the 50cent apple, I'll have the "nourshment" needed to provide for my family and in doing so, I'm also providing the foundation that may allow my children to grow their own dam apple trees!!!

What about the poor children watching you who don't happen to have the same skin color as you do who cannot afford the apples at their racially determined price? You still feel good then? Or are they just a casualty of past wrongs done to your ancestors?

-Ice

 

[ice_23]

I was one of the best students at one of the worst schools in my state, and that got me a ticket on the affirmative action bus to one of the best colleges in the country.

Clearly you have merit. You were one of the best students.

When I got to that college I worked my butt off that first semester because I knew I'd have to work twice as hard just to keep up with everyone else. It paid off. I did really well in college. I got good grades and met people that were different from myself in countless ways. I learned a lot about myself and learned that regardless of the superficial differences people are more alike than they are different. Now I'm going to be a doctor.

No one is arguing that YOU shouldn't be a doctor. You worked hard and did well in school.

I would like to work in an underserved community, I want to help people of every race and who speak different languages. My experience as an affirmative action student at a great college led me to where I am now in life.

Some URM students claim that they will serve such a community but do not in the end, despite the fact that they may have received an admissions boost due to the assumption that they would. Also (and once again), how do you know that you were an affirmative action student? Everything you've said says that you did very well in both high school and college....

As a med student when I speak to white patients it's always in the back of my mind "I wonder if they want me -- this young black kid -- trying to help them; after all they could be racist or think that I'm not that smart because of my skin color." But like I said people are more alike than they are different. I go in there and try to give 100% to every patient I see and most of the time they appreciate it.

Because of where I came from I feel blessed to be where I am now.

I know my story is anecdotal, but I truly believe that there is value in having many different people from different cultures -- and this is the true purpose of affirmative action.

I'm not a URM but I feel like URM patients would rather not have me there treating them. It's no different. However, I hesitate to think you were a traditional "affirmative action" admit if you had terrific grades in both high school and college, comparable to the average statistics of your various schools (correct me if I am wrong; this is a major assumption I have been making throughout due to the content of your post). There is value in having many people from many different cultures, but there is also value in having fairness too. There is a reason why no races wish to be exploited. AA does exploit specific races to some degree. Economic AA wouldn't exploit any race in particular. It would allow poorer students to get in relative to rich students. And I'd be *more ok* with that than the system now.

-Ice

 

[ice_23]

I agree with the points you brought up, but keep in mind that "black" immigrants face those problems as well. I was born in Africa, and my family came to the US when I was five without a penny. Obscenities?? Try being poor, an immigrant, AND black.

You've got the NAACP, and a variety of other organizations with particular political clout (including politicians themselves who are sympathetic to your hardships) resulting in programs such as AA.

And what do those Indians/other non URM's have? No one really. Perhaps it is some sort of moral victory that Asians are considerd a "successful" race that is not in need of government assistance in educational programs.

Try being poor, an immigrant, AND asian....

-Ice

 

[Docta]

what exactly about that post is racist? i asked if there are notable physiological differences between people of different races (there are). i then pointed out that there is a certain presumption against this possibility applying to intelligence. why does that presumption exist? my point was to question that presumption, not to say that the presumption is wrong. you've done nothing more than become yet another story that i can relate when this topic comes up--yet another person who was offended and cried racism when the question was asked "if physiological differences are noted to exist between members of race A and race B, is it possible that there are differences in average levels of intelligence between members of A and B?"

why is that offensive, and how is that racism? if i ask "are mongolian people more likely to develop aortic aneurisms?" that's okay and a worthy investigation, and it's probably going to be said that it's "about time" such a question was asked about such a previously-neglected demographic. when the question turns to intelligence, though, suddenly it's horribly racist?

The mongolians and aortic aneurysms were considered to be a genetic trait because you cannot first rule out an outside force singling out mongolians and creating in them selectively.

As I said in my previous post, the racism in your query is not in the act of asking why are there differences in intelligence between groups of people in general terms. The racism is in equating academic performance in certain groups with innate intelligence of the group as a whole, and not recognizing and accepting the overwhelming evidence for the differences in academic performance.

What is the overwhelming evidence? Centuries of slavery, in which the race ensalved was not allowed to read, write, or become educated, raped, brutalized, families literally torn apart, and forced to work for no pay. This was followed by centuries more of being actively denied access to higher education, denied the right to vote, denied equal access to the courts, not allowed to operate in mainstream society. This form of oppression did not end until a few decades ago, the genration of the grandparents and sometimes parents of people who are finally allowed to compete for college and medical school.

Did you learn about this in school? Is there some reason why you would not think that CENTURIES of oppressing a certain group of people, forcing them to live as second class citizens, would tend to have an impact for a few years down the road in their culture?

"O.K., after generations of your family and all the people they were "allowed" to associate with have been kept oppressed and uneducated, now you can compete for medical school. And if your average scores aren't at the same level of the group that has had access all this time, it must be that your race is genetically lacking in innate intelligence."

You assert that is quite likely that instead of suffering the devasting consequences of institutional racism for 400 years, this group of people could never cut it in the first place. Yup, can't rule that one out. That is a racist notion, to cast aside the mountain of evidence, in favor of the idea that this group is intellectually inferior.

 

[OzDDS]

And I think it's always so interesting to hear of people speak of improvement in early childhood educatioon but as an educated parent of an elementary age children, allow me to share with you why this idea won't work due to racism in this country.

The president of the Maryland Teachers Association (a white woman) recently stated that the biggest factor in why minority children in Maryland don't perform as well in school as white childen is because the TEACHES HAVE LOWER EXPECTATIONS OF MINORITY CHILDREN. NOT SES, NOT being raised in a single parent home, but lower standards being set for minority children based purely on thier race. !!

Exactly why you should abolish AA!! Lower expectations.. You want to go further? Then get rid of policys such as AA! And we can PROVE to everyone URMs can reach the same level as everyone else without such handouts. Then maybe they won't have lower expectations. By promoting AA.. you are doing nothing but tell these "White women" that they SHOULD HAVE lower expecations. It is these very things such as AA that keep things like they are! You think it helps you, but it only serves to do the opposite.

 

[1Path]

However, I hesitate to think you were a traditional "affirmative action" admit if you had terrific grades in both high school and college, comparable to the average statistics of your various schools (correct me if I am wrong; this is a major assumption I have been making throughout due to the content of your post).

I'm curious as to what a "traditional" affrimative action recipient is versus what, a nontraditional affrimative applicant? Average MCAT and GPA for URM's is 24/3.3. Is there REALLY any big difference between someone with a 3.3 and a 3.7??. How about an MCAT of 23 versus 27? The other fact people like to forget is that there are far fewer minorities getting in with "out of range stats" ( <23 MCAT and < 3.3 GPA's) than are URM's but my question is still the same, what in the hell difference do test scores make when it comes to being a good physician and providing a critical need in community?

You think it helps you, but it only serves to do the opposite.

Why have you assumed that I need AA in the first place? Talk about racial assumptions. Did you know that there are more WHITES in med school with "low stats" than URM's (do in large part to legacy) or do you people just buy into that racial superiority bullcrap?

 

[OzDDS]

You think it helps you, but it only serves to do the opposite.

Why have you assumed that I need AA in the first place? Talk about racial assumptions. Did you know that there are more WHITES in med school with "low stats" than URM's (do in large part to legacy) or do you people just buy into that racial superiority bullcrap?

I never said I thought you "needed" it. But, because you said:

If I'm hungry, I'm going to do whatever I can short of stealing to eat.

I was writing on the assumption that "Regardless" if you really needed it or not that you Would take advantage of any handouts that were offered you.

Then you complained about lower expectations.. My very point was that I DON'T think you "need" it! But if you continue to support AA, you have no right to complain about lower expectations.

Support AA = Supporting lower expectations of URMs

 

[8744]

There have been some references to "Indians" in some of the previous posts. Just making sure everyone understands the following:
1. Indians = people of the Indian subcontinent = not considered URM
2. Native Americans are NOT Indians.

When I go to Seaworld with the kids, I like to stand in front of the dolphin tank and announce, "Man, those are some big fish! Look at the size of those fish! Those are the biggest fish I have ever seen!"

Invariably some graduate student type will say, in his best lecture-to-Jesusland voice, "Actually they are air-breathing mammals."

I generally reply, "Bull****. How can they breathe underwater? They're fish."

I like to see how long I can keep him going. This used to drive my wife up the wall but she's a fun girl so she plays along.

My point?

Dude. We know the difference between Indians and Indians.

I got a PM from one of you who's name, for shame, I will not mention, lecturing me about the history of Columbus in the New World.

 

[8744]

Only if they're real Indians like the ones who used to roam the American West. Not those imposters from South West Asia who call themselves "Indians" even though they have never even been to the United States. Don't think I don't see through that little charade.

For those of you who come from countries where they don't have humor, if you look down, that tugging sensation is yer' Uncle Panda pulling yer' friggin' leg.

 

[8744]

When I go to Seaworld with the kids, I like to stand in front of the dolphin tank and announce, "Man, those are some big fish! Look at the size of those fish! Those are the biggest fish I have ever seen!"

Invariably some graduate student type will say, in his best lecture-to-Jesusland voice, "Actually they are air-breathing mammals."

I generally reply, "Bull****. How can they breathe underwater? They're fish."

I like to see how long I can keep him going. This used to drive my wife up the wall but she's a fun girl so she plays along.

You see, I have got to the point in life where I don't always have to be right. Years ago, for example, I wasted an extraordinary amount of energy trying to convince my fundamentalist Christian friends that Noah's Ark and Adam and Eve are not actual historical events. I even have friends who insist that men have one fewer ribs than woman because Eve was created from Adam's rib. Now I just don't care.

What's the point? Better to just nod your head and smile indulgently. You make more friends that way and, most importantly, you find that you like everybody and life is not one big argument.

 

[delchrys]

You assert that is quite likely that instead of suffering the devasting consequences of institutional racism for 400 years, this group of people could never cut it in the first place. Yup, can't rule that one out. That is a racist notion, to cast aside the mountain of evidence, in favor of the idea that this group is intellectually inferior.

no, i don't assert anything remotely like what you accuse me of saying. i ask a question--why is it immediately discarded as baseless and racist when anyone asks whether intelligence is a trait that varies according to race? why is there no serious inquiry into this matter, and instead we have a label ("racist") applied to the people who suggest that it is worth investigating?

you cannot make a race of people less intelligent by making them slaves--Lamarckian "genetics" is a fallacy and it seems you'd like to perpetuate that same myth here. what might 400 years of racial oppression do, though? it might create a culture in which getting an education and working hard for that education is "bad" since it is an act of complicity with the white society that oppressed one's ancestors. of course, that cultural phenomenon would be the result of individual choices to show disdain for education, and would implicate personal responsibility, which is, of course, a major no-no for anyone seeking to externalize the scapegoat and blame the cultural ills on another. well, here's some news--the people who practiced slavery are all dead, pal, and so are all those who were slaves. any attempt to obtain compensation from those who are alive is an attempt at theft--someone trying to "get theirs" for past slavery and racial injustice, if they try to get it from me, will for damned sure face opposition from me, as i have NOTHING to do with any perceived injustice their ancestors suffered, or that they currently suffer. taking from me to right wrongs perpetrated by someone else is nothing more than an act of theft and an extension of those wrongs to yet another social circle. of course, don't take it my opinion as valid--i'm a racist person, as you have clearly demonstrated. john mcwhorter, who is black, also shares my views, but of course, he must be racist as well? in fact, if you label everyone who disagrees with you "racist," well, then, you will have the perfect argument that no one can refute.

 

[1Path]

Support AA = Supporting lower expectations of URMs

Is "supporting lower standards" what is means knowing that white women are the largest beneficiaries of AA policy?

And your analogy about lower standards is completely erroneous. The fact that school age teachers have lower standards of their minority students is the MAIN contributer to why AA is needed in the first place. Given the hundreds year old historical (450 to be exact) mistreatment of minorities in the US, added to that 12 years (grades 1-12) of being treated as one has some mental disability, then expected to compete EVENLY with the majority? How in the hell is that even possible? The fact that ANY minority can "make it" through a system stacked so highly against them is a miracle attributable to the spirit I believe we inherited from our ancestors.

 

[visualwealth]

Trust me when I say that minorites especially Black people sufer a lot in courses where the grading is subjective. This manifests itself in term papers and Lab reports... Don't be fooled, we live in a racist society and, it is 1000X harder for a Black person to make it that any race... Look around the world buddy! In every country in the world the people that are treated the worst are the people with the darkest skin... Thus, black people face opression from all the different races... It is in most races mind that they are superior to black people ( the darker people) in this society... IF YOU CAN REMOVE THAT FROM PEOPLES MIND AND GIVE EVERY MINORITY A FAIR SHOT THEN AA WONT BE NECESSARY FOR THE FEW MINORITES THAT CANNOT OVERCOME THIS OPRESSION( I say this because I feel the minority of average intelligence is not on a even playing field with the non minority to average intelligence...) That is, their hard work is not recognized and they are essencially weeded out by idiots who feel that black people are inferior and dumb...

 

[ice_23]

I'm curious as to what a "traditional" affrimative action recipient is versus what, a nontraditional affrimative applicant? Average MCAT and GPA for URM's is 24/3.3. Is there REALLY any big difference between someone with a 3.3 and a 3.7??. How about an MCAT of 23 versus 27? The other fact people like to forget is that there are far fewer minorities getting in with "out of range stats" ( <23 MCAT and < 3.3 GPA's) than are URM's but my question is still the same, what in the hell difference do test scores make when it comes to being a good physician and providing a critical need in community?

If there's no big difference, then other people of other colors (whites included) should also be able to get in with those statistics, and the averages per racial group should be the same. No one is arguing that test scores make a "better" physician. What they are arguing is that if one group of people is held to one standard while another group is held to a higher standard, it's not fair. And to use your logic, if test scores don't matter in becoming a good physician, why should non-URM's and white people have to have higher average (note: average) test scores than URM's?

Why have you assumed that I need AA in the first place?

I haven't assumed this. I think most people arguing against you say that AA should be gone. If you don't need AA now, then you wouldn't need it if it's abolished. No one is arguing against URM's who have merit getting into medical school.

Talk about racial assumptions. Did you know that there are more WHITES in med school with "low stats" than URM's (do in large part to legacy) or do you people just buy into that racial superiority bullcrap?

You seem to like bringing this up as if most of the people against AA disagree with you on this point. I don't. I think Legacy admissions are bull. Anyone who is against AA but for legacy admissions is a hypocrite.

Start a thread on "Legacy Admissions" and I'll go there and agree with you. The only reason why we're still having this discussion is because you and others believe one thing with AA while we believe in another (and this is a thread about AA).

And no, I don't believe in racial superiority. That's why I think everyone should be treated equally.

-Ice

 

[OzDDS]

And your analogy about lower standards is completely erroneous. The fact that school age teachers have lower standards of their minority students is the MAIN contributer to why AA is needed in the first place. .

I thought you just told me that you didn't think you needed it. Now your saying it IS needed. Which one is it? I agree that it is horrible that these "white women" as you say treat you with low expectations. But you know what? I do think my analogy is correct. It is a cycle.. You want to get ahead.. you don't want "white women" to think you are subpar the normal student. Well I'm sorry, but if you are supporting a policy like AA that allows URMs in with Subpar students into medical school with Subpar scores.. I don't know why you can't understand this.. but in essence YES you are agreeing with these "white women" and reminding them that you NEED to have "the bar lowered for you because you are subpar students". You can't blame it all on someone else. If you want things to change, at some point your going to have to rely on yourself and prove them wrong without handouts.

Again, I refer to the poster who mentioned oppressed racial groups such as the Japanese, Lebonese, chinese, and Irish who made it on their own in this country without handouts. (these groups were also slave labour in many areas of the country throughout history, treated badly and called names).


You want more respect, you want people to STOP Having low expectations of URMs, You want to further your people in this country? Then abolish AA!

 

[OzDDS]

I haven't assumed this. I think most people arguing against you say that AA should be gone. If you don't need AA now, then you wouldn't need it if it's abolished. No one is arguing against URM's who have merit getting into medical school.



You seem to like bringing this up as if most of the people against AA disagree with you on this point. I don't. I think Legacy admissions are bull. Anyone who is against AA but for legacy admissions is a hypocrite.

Start a thread on "Legacy Admissions" and I'll go there and agree with you. The only reason why we're still having this discussion is because you and others believe one thing with AA while we believe in another (and this is a thread about AA).

And no, I don't believe in racial superiority. That's why I think everyone should be treated equally.

-Ice

 

[hot hot heat]

In the end URMs do get into medical school with lower stats which is basically saying that they are not as capable as ORMs and whites. Statistically speaking, URMs tend to get in with lower MCATs/GPAs and because of it they score worse on their boards and tend to have a higher failure rate as well as a higher rate of deferring their Step 1s. It's been proven that using both MCAT scores and GPAs allow schools to make good predictions of how well a student will do on their initial board exam.

You can see this study done that better explains these trends (http://www.ceousa.org/pdfs/multimed.pdf)

How exactly is this helping URMs? It's basically placing URMs in a situation where they are going to fail. How does this even begin to help people in disadvantaged areas where URMs are supposedly more likely to practice? Sending them to inferior doctors just worsens the situation and creates more mistrust of the medical profession.

And I'm sure there are going to be a couple of people complaining on how test scores don't define a good physician. Guess what, this isn't some stupid undergrad midterm or final. It's a licensing exam and I can guarantee you that if a person was given the choice between a doctor who passed his boards the first time with decent scores versus a doctor who failed them at least once, they will choose the first doctor every time.

You can cry to complain and say "Well, the URM may have had some great experiences and they really added to the diversity of the class!" Well sorry to break it to you, that may be well and all, but when it comes to being able to practice medicine the general public could care less.

Preferntial treatment to URMs only harms them and creates the aura of inferiority because they will always be thought to have gotten into their school because of their skin color. It's sad but true.

No body deserves to get more consideration because of some past racial disparities. Getting into an undergraduate institution is enough of a level playing field. And if your udnergrad is crappy, the MCATs is the ultimate equalizer that is knowledge based. Also with the numerous scholarships and grants at the undergrad level, regardless of how poor you may be, you can get a good education. This added special treatment is absurd.

 

[1Path]

You want more respect, you want people to STOP Having low expectations of URMs, You want to further your people in this country? Then abolish AA!

I think I see where the confusion is now. Neither I, nor many other successful minorites I know, give a rat's a$$ about earning respect from anyone outside of our friends, familes and others (of ANY race) who would support us while we navigate a system biased against us. And the reason is clear. Even with GPA's of 4.0 and 45T MCAT's there are those in the majority that would still think we had tails like monkeys (this was a common belief during world war II about blacks) among the many other myths people perpetuate in an effort to make themselves feel superior to other races of people.

So why should we even waste time trying to earn respect from you and people like you?

Like many, I don't agree with how AA is practiced in some places, but in the absence of something better, it's the best we have for now.