DO Neurosurgery path

[Hiyalol]

I have facilities near me such as Medical City (HCA) and I looked up their directory for neurosurgeons and they don't have one DO. I talked to the director of surgery there and he said they do not hire MDs or DO, they give them the privilege to practice in their hospital. But even if they give them the privilege why do I not see any DOs, I only see 9 neurosurgeons which are all MD? Will it be this difficult to land a job as a neurosurgeon in Texas when I finish an AOA neurosurgery residency in another state?

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[SurgeDO]

you will not find accurate information about DO nsgy on this site.

 

[DrEnderW]

I have facilities near me such as Medical City (HCA) and I looked up their directory for neurosurgeons and they don't have one DO. I talked to the director of surgery there and he said they do not hire MDs or DO, they give them the privilege to practice in their hospital. But even if they give them the privilege why do I not see any DOs, I only see 9 neurosurgeons which are all MD? Will it be this difficult to land a job as a neurosurgeon in Texas when I finish an AOA neurosurgery residency in another state?

One primary reason for this is because DOs comprise a fraction of attending physicians so no matter where you look, there will likely be a lower number of DOs. Also, you are in TX, which only has 1 DO school within hundreds of miles.

There are only 20ish DO neurosurgeons produced per year, leading to the number of practicing surgeons being low. This is due to a low number of spots, self-selection, and a barrier to the more numerous ACGME spots. It doesn't mean you cannot become a practicing neurosurgeons in TX as a DO, however.

I agree with @SurgeDO that DO NS doesn't have great info on here.

 

[darklabel]

One primary reason for this is because DOs comprise a fraction of attending physicians so no matter where you look, there will likely be a lower number of DOs. Also, you are in TX, which only has 1 DO school within hundreds of miles.

There are only 20ish DO neurosurgeons produced per year, leading to the number of practicing surgeons being low. This is due to a low number of spots, self-selection, and a barrier to the more numerous ACGME spots. It doesn't mean you cannot become a practicing neurosurgeons in TX as a DO, however.

I agree with @SurgeDO that DO NS doesn't have great info on here.

Are there any neurosurg AOA slots?

 

[DrEnderW]

Are there any neurosurg AOA slots?

The AOA residency site lists around 10 programs with generally a couple spots for each program per PGY, however some listed programs have recently closed or switched to ACGME (LIJ in NY).

 

[Trogghunter]

Why do you want to go neurosurgery? You know it's a 7yr residency w/o duty hour restrictions right? Seriously, think about it.

 

[DrEnderW]

Why do you want to go neurosurgery? You know it's a 7yr residency w/o duty hour restrictions right? Seriously, think about it.

AOA is only 6, if that matters, because there's not the same research component.

 

[cylondoctor]

I believe some, if not most programs are at 7 (or transitioning to 7) years to include that research component, which is becoming more mandatory now.

 

[user3]

In before "AOA NS programs are poor and won't survive the merger".

 

[DrEnderW]

I believe some, if not most programs are at 7 (or transitioning to 7) years to include that research component, which is becoming more mandatory now.

My bad, you're right. Thanks for the correction.

The AOA opportunities site is horrifically dated.

 

[hallowmann]

One primary reason for this is because DOs comprise a fraction of attending physicians so no matter where you look, there will likely be a lower number of DOs. Also, you are in TX, which only has 1 DO school within hundreds of miles.

There are only 20ish DO neurosurgeons produced per year, leading to the number of practicing surgeons being low. This is due to a low number of spots, self-selection, and a barrier to the more numerous ACGME spots. It doesn't mean you cannot become a practicing neurosurgeons in TX as a DO, however.

I agree with @SurgeDO that DO NS doesn't have great info on here.

This. DOs comprise <10% of practicing physicians in this country.

Also, as has been said, the number of AOA NS spots per year is like in the 20s, so that's a tiny amount of NS DOs produced each year.

 

[meliora27]

FWIW, the membership in American Association of Neurological Surgeons is only open to ACGME trained NSX's. So, if being a member of your speciality college is important to you, know that you will be ineligible if you train in an AOA program. Perhaps this will change one day post-merger but just throwing that out there. I know that for many DO NSX's it's a point of contention that they are unable to join their MD colleagues in their specialty college.

 

[Hiyalol]

Why do you want to go neurosurgery? You know it's a 7yr residency w/o duty hour restrictions right? Seriously, think about it.

Yes, I have thought about it, I have done research on it so I do know the 24 hour shifts they pull, even to the max 36 hours. I know about residents getting on average 4 hours of sleep a night. I know a lot when it comes to just internet research but I want to know more because I am dead serious about becoming one, I have many reasons but it's not about the money. If I wanted just money I wouldn't be choosing medicine because looking at the average hour wage for a neurosurgeon with how much they work you might as well be an anesthesiologist and even for them it's not worth the risk they take everyday. No one knows the future but I am confused and at the same time worried that if I apply for DO and get accepted lucrative specialties such as NS will become just a dream because of this ideology that MDs are better than DOs. I have read that this ideology is slowly diminishing but like I said I have only read.

 

[Trogghunter]

Yes, I have thought about it, I have done research on it so I do know the 24 hour shifts they pull, even to the max 36 hours. I know about residents getting on average 4 hours of sleep a night. I know a lot when it comes to just internet research but I want to know more because I am dead serious about becoming one, I have many reasons but it's not about the money. If I wanted just money I wouldn't be choosing medicine because looking at the average hour wage for a neurosurgeon with how much they work you might as well be an anesthesiologist and even for them it's not worth the risk they take everyday. No one knows the future but I am confused and at the same time worried that if I apply for DO and get accepted lucrative specialties such as NS will become just a dream because of this ideology that MDs are better than DOs. I have read that this ideology is slowly diminishing but like I said I have only read.

You answered your own question. There are few DO neurosurgery spots, you haven't even been accepted to school, no one knows if those DO residencies will still be around, and you're not going to get into an allo neurosurgery spot as a DO. when I came in to school, I was gung-ho about trauma surgery, and that changed first year. If you try to go DO and neurosurgery then you better go somewhere with affiliated residency spots and plenty of research opportunities to boot. dont pigeonhole yourself though

 

[UTsksk]

You answered your own question. There are few DO neurosurgery spots, you haven't even been accepted to school, no one knows if those DO residencies will still be around, and you're not going to get into an allo neurosurgery spot as a DO. when I came in to school, I was gung-ho about trauma surgery, and that changed first year. If you try to go DO and neurosurgery then you better go somewhere with affiliated residency spots and plenty of research opportunities to boot. dont pigeonhole yourself though

Out of curiosity, did you drop trauma just because you changed your mind during 1st year or because there's a bias against DO?

 

[DocWinter]

If you really, really really want to be a nsg, or think you do at this point, you may be disappointed no matter where you go, as it is a top, competitive residency anywhere and you need excellent production during med school. If you really want to chase it through the tiny window available, give yourself a tiny bit more room and go MD.

 

[hallowmann]

Yes, I have thought about it, I have done research on it so I do know the 24 hour shifts they pull, even to the max 36 hours. I know about residents getting on average 4 hours of sleep a night. I know a lot when it comes to just internet research but I want to know more because I am dead serious about becoming one, I have many reasons but it's not about the money. If I wanted just money I wouldn't be choosing medicine because looking at the average hour wage for a neurosurgeon with how much they work you might as well be an anesthesiologist and even for them it's not worth the risk they take everyday. No one knows the future but I am confused and at the same time worried that if I apply for DO and get accepted lucrative specialties such as NS will become just a dream because of this ideology that MDs are better than DOs. I have read that this ideology is slowly diminishing but like I said I have only read.

There are a total of ~230 NS spots in the country (ACGME and AOA). That's 230 out of some 26000 US medical grads and another 12000 foreign grads. Now sure virtually all don't want to do NS, but we're really talking about a residency that goes to people who either have connections or are at the very top of their classes (MD or DO). Please know that if this is really what you want you are going to need some amazing combination of constant very hard work (almost everyone works hard in medical school as it is) and luck. And be sure to start working on your CV from the beginning.

Last year 3 DOs matched into ACGME NS spots. It's clear that it is "easier" for an MD to match NS than a DO, and given the uncertainty associated with the merger, AOA NS residencies may not be a safe bet when you are applying for residency. That said, we are still talking about a residency that has very few spots and is virtually impossible to get for the vast majority of MDs, let alone DOs.

Bottom line: if you get into an MD school, go there and work your butt off because it'll be an uphill battle. If not, you're chances are better as a DO than any other options (close to impossible as a US IMG, impossible if you don't go to any medical school).

 

[Hiyalol]

You answered your own question. There are few DO neurosurgery spots, you haven't even been accepted to school, no one knows if those DO residencies will still be around, and you're not going to get into an allo neurosurgery spot as a DO. when I came in to school, I was gung-ho about trauma surgery, and that changed first year. If you try to go DO and neurosurgery then you better go somewhere with affiliated residency spots and plenty of research opportunities to boot. dont pigeonhole yourself though

I get what you're saying, I have other residencies in mind when the time comes, but I love the complexity and challenge given in neurosurgery; the fact that there will be cases that have never been seen before and it's up to "you" to find a way to the solution. What if I wait another year for a spot and apply again? Does it make me a stronger applicant or more dedicated? Will they even know that I applied again or will they just view me as a first time since their plate is full as it is picking these applicants? I found out late I wanted to go into medicine but have been working hard to get back up. I don't care about the letters after my name and D.O is probably my only option.

There are a total of ~230 NS spots in the country (ACGME and AOA). That's 230 out of some 26000 US medical grads and another 12000 foreign grads. Now sure virtually all don't want to do NS, but we're really talking about a residency that goes to people who either have connections or are at the very top of their classes (MD or DO). Please know that if this is really what you want you are going to need some amazing combination of constant very hard work (almost everyone works hard in medical school as it is) and luck. And be sure to start working on your CV from the beginning.

Last year 3 DOs matched into ACGME NS spots. It's clear that it is "easier" for an MD to match NS than a DO, and given the uncertainty associated with the merger, AOA NS residencies may not be a safe bet when you are applying for residency. That said, we are still talking about a residency that has very few spots and is virtually impossible to get for the vast majority of MDs, let alone DOs.

Bottom line: if you get into an MD school, go there and work your butt off because it'll be an uphill battle. If not, you're chances are better as a DO than any other options (close to impossible as a US IMG, impossible if you don't go to any medical school).

Thanks so much, the merger will make things more unpredictable. Maybe they will set in stone a certain amount of spots for DO and MD or maybe not. The possibilities are not infinite but it's a lot, what can I do first year as a DO and throughout medical school to make myself stand out? I hear about these rotations and be the first one there and the last one to leave and I get that but how does anyone take notice of that if only a few surgeons are left operating that late? How are the rotations done in 3rd and 4th year, three day a week + weekends?

 

[frappalino16]

I get what you're saying, I have other residencies in mind when the time comes, but I love the complexity and challenge given in neurosurgery; the fact that there will be cases that have never been seen before and it's up to "you" to find a way to the solution. What if I wait another year for a spot and apply again? Does it make me a stronger applicant or more dedicated? Will they even know that I applied again or will they just view me as a first time since their plate is full as it is picking these applicants? I found out late I wanted to go into medicine but have been working hard to get back up. I don't care about the letters after my name and D.O is probably my only option.

Thanks so much, the merger will make things more unpredictable. Maybe they will set in stone a certain amount of spots for DO and MD or maybe not. The possibilities are not infinite but it's a lot, what can I do first year as a DO and throughout medical school to make myself stand out? I hear about these rotations and be the first one there and the last one to leave and I get that but how does anyone take notice of that if only a few surgeons are left operating that late? How are the rotations done in 3rd and 4th year, three day a week + weekends?

If you genuinely want neurosurgery then improve your application and get into an MD school. Concerning what you can do to stand out? Be top of your class, do research, and maybe find a mentor. Concerning 3rd and 4th year, you work 5 days a week and maybe weekends if you're on call.

Honestly, instead of looking so far into the distance, I would instead focus on just getting into medical school first. There's a good chance that your interests will change, especially when you find out that everyone is as smart as you, if not smarter, and everyone works as hard as you, if not harder.

 

[NurWollen]

In before "AOA NS programs are poor and won't survive the merger".

FWIW, the membership in American Association of Neurological Surgeons is only open to ACGME trained NSX's. So, if being a member of your speciality college is important to you, know that you will be ineligible if you train in an AOA program. Perhaps this will change one day post-merger but just throwing that out there. I know that for many DO NSX's it's a point of contention that they are unable to join their MD colleagues in their specialty college.

Isn't this the case with most specialties?

 

[BestDoctorEver]

Yes, I have thought about it, I have done research on it so I do know the 24 hour shifts they pull, even to the max 36 hours. I know about residents getting on average 4 hours of sleep a night. I know a lot when it comes to just internet research but I want to know more because I am dead serious about becoming one, I have many reasons but it's not about the money. If I wanted just money I wouldn't be choosing medicine because looking at the average hour wage for a neurosurgeon with how much they work you might as well be an anesthesiologist and even for them it's not worth the risk they take everyday. No one knows the future but I am confused and at the same time worried that if I apply for DO and get accepted lucrative specialties such as NS will become just a dream because of this ideology that MDs are better than DOs. I have read that this ideology is slowly diminishing but like I said I have only read.

If there are really 20 spots, your chances of matching might be low. If you are sure a 100% that is what you want to do, you should consider strengthening your application and apply MD...

Page 135 is the ACGME match for NS... It's terribly competitive even in the MD world.

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Charting-Outcomes-2014-Final.pdf

 

[hallowmann]

...Thanks so much, the merger will make things more unpredictable. Maybe they will set in stone a certain amount of spots for DO and MD or maybe not. The possibilities are not infinite but it's a lot, what can I do first year as a DO and throughout medical school to make myself stand out? I hear about these rotations and be the first one there and the last one to leave and I get that but how does anyone take notice of that if only a few surgeons are left operating that late? How are the rotations done in 3rd and 4th year, three day a week + weekends?

You're going to need to be top of your class. You're going to need to kill boards. You're going to need to work for hours making sure you have neuroanatomy down. You're going to have to network with Neurosurgeons at the hospitals affiliated with your school (hopefully your school has a NS program in their OPTI). You're going to have to start on research as early as you can, but your first priorities are the first 2 things I mentioned.

It's crazy competitive. Aim high. Worst case scenario and you decide to do something else, almost all of that work you did will make you competitive no matter what you do.

As far as rotations go. Make sure you do some early NS electives. Docs also tend to notice when you work hard and when you don't. Your goal is to have the material down regardless. Rotations are to learn with hands on (or at very least eyes open) experience. Sure, part of it is the grade, but your goal is to have the material down. Also, as someone mentioned, rotations are full time pretty much until they say you can go home. Weekends off.

 

[Hiyalol]

If there are really 20 spots, your chances of matching might be low. If you are sure a 100% that is what you want to do, you should consider strengthening your application and apply MD...

Page 135 is the ACGME match for NS... It's terribly competitive even in the MD world.

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Charting-Outcomes-2014-Final.pdf

Thank you for that info, I am looking at page 141 and is "Independent Applicants" DOs and MD Caribbeans? Foreign students? Also when it states "Percentage who are AOA members" and it states in the Independent Applicant section N/A and all the way down, what does that mean? No DO schools outside the U.S?

 

[Hiyalol]

You're going to need to be top of your class. You're going to need to kill boards. You're going to need to work for hours making sure you have neuroanatomy down. You're going to have to network with Neurosurgeons at the hospitals affiliated with your school (hopefully your school has a NS program in their OPTI). You're going to have to start on research as early as you can, but your first priorities are the first 2 things I mentioned.

It's crazy competitive. Aim high. Worst case scenario and you decide to do something else, almost all of that work you did will make you competitive no matter what you do.

As far as rotations go. Make sure you do some early NS electives. Docs also tend to notice when you work hard and when you don't. Your goal is to have the material down regardless. Rotations are to learn with hands on (or at very least eyes open) experience. Sure, part of it is the grade, but your goal is to have the material down. Also, as someone mentioned, rotations are full time pretty much until they say you can go home. Weekends off.

Thank you, I will do everything you just said hopefully it'll be my luck. Also I'd like your input on the NRMP link from the user BestDoctorEver - http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Charting-Outcomes-2014-Final.pdf Page 141. These people did 12 presentations on average while the people that didn't match did 8. The more the better but as a DO should I do more than 12? Also what do residency directors favor more? Abstracts, presentations, or publications? All the same? Publications I'd assume are more time consuming.

 

[DrEnderW]

Thank you for that info, I am looking at page 141 and is "Independent Applicants" DOs and MD Caribbeans? Foreign students? Also when it states "Percentage who are AOA members" and it states in the Independent Applicant section N/A and all the way down, what does that mean? No DO schools outside the U.S?

Independent applicant refers to anyone that is not a US MD. You are correct that it includes all DOs and IMGs/FMGs, including the Carib of course.

AOA in this context refers to Alpha Omega Alpha, a US MD honor society DOs are not eligible for. The DO equivalent is SSP (Sigma Sigma Phi) and is not tracked statistically anywhere but in the AOA (American osteopathic association) match. It appears next to AOA on your ERAS application. The dual use of AOA is can get confusing, that's a good question.

 

[RadsonRads]

Guy from my DO class matched an ACGME neurosurg spot last year. It's possible, but must bust ass

 

[BestDoctorEver]

Guy from my DO class matched an ACGME neurosurg spot last year. It's possible, but must bust ass

That DO student kick ass!

 

[hallowmann]

Thank you, I will do everything you just said hopefully it'll be my luck. Also I'd like your input on the NRMP link from the user BestDoctorEver - http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Charting-Outcomes-2014-Final.pdf Page 141. These people did 12 presentations on average while the people that didn't match did 8. The more the better but as a DO should I do more than 12? Also what do residency directors favor more? Abstracts, presentations, or publications? All the same? Publications I'd assume are more time consuming.

I wouldn't aim for a specific number. Just try and get as many as you can while still maintaining the other important stuff (high rank, good grades, etc.). Obviously 12 is safer than 8, but there are so few ACGME DO NS matches, that you really can't gauge something like number of pubs, etc.

I honestly don't know what NS PDs prefer, but full article publications are harder to come by than abstracts, so I'd imagine that is more important. People like further along like DrEnderW probably can contribute more on that subject.

There are foreign DO schools, but the degree is considered similar to DC and it's a degree in "Osteopathy". Only US-trained DOs are considered medical physicians and can enter graduate medical training. This may change sometime in the future, as the AOA has mentioned looking into accrediting international DO schools that train under the same model as US DO schools. That said, it'll probably be limited to accrediting Canadian DO schools, but who knows.

DOs make a pretty small population of independent applicants. More than they use to for sure, but still a very small amount compared to non-US IMGs and even US IMGs.