cromagnon

7+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Jun 29, 2003
259
0
0
USA
Visit site
Status
I asked about DO ns-programs on the ns-match board and got this response:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I spoke with a DO neurosurgery resident a while ago and he spoke poorly about all the DO programs, with the exception of one in the northeast somewhere. He told me that the program he was in, and similar to the others, were basically two to three DO neurosurgeons using residents to help increase the productivitiy of their practices. While he told me he was confident in his skills to do an ACDF, simple lumbar fusions, and simple crani procedures, he had virtually no experience with trauma, no experience with complex spinal instrumentation, very little tumor experience, no vascular experience, very little ICU experience.

While I hate to talk poorly about DO colleagues, it just simply true that their programs for neurosurgery are just not anywhere close to a MD program in terms of producing competent surgeons by the end of training. Thus, I'd hate to even "rank" any of them as being better than another.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

.......can anyone refute this or back this up?
 

Idiopathic

Newly Minted
Lifetime Donor
15+ Year Member
Apr 21, 2003
8,362
18
351
Here
Visit site
Status
Attending Physician
Interesting. Maybe you should ask each program individually about this? I have heard that Arrowhead in CA is very competitive and that the hospital sees TONS of trauma. I would be curious to hear about the other programs (I know that Doctors in Ohio is a Level I trauma center and is very busy). This intrigues me also.
 

Gibby Haynes

Senior Member
7+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Oct 26, 2003
105
0
0
Michigan
Visit site
Status
Check out Grandview in Dayton, Ohio. A buddy of mine was considering nsurg and talked to some of the residents. Grandview sends them to UC-Davis to train for 6 months or so. In addition, if you are a stellar applicant, don't be afraid to try to go AMA. A guy from TCOM matched nsurg at UC-Davis about 3 or 4 years ago (he was #1 in his class and had outstanding board scores). If you do stay with AOA programs, make sure you resaerch them carefully and talk with the residents. Learn as much about some AMA programs as you can, so you can make a sound judgement of AOA programs you are considering.
 

cromagnon

7+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Jun 29, 2003
259
0
0
USA
Visit site
Status
this is a follow-up to the reply above by someone else (i.e. not me) on the ns-match board....

I think that you are jumping the gun and making a spot judgement based upon the opinion of one resident at one program. (Look at all of the controversy we have had on this site regarding U of Chicago and Jefferson) While it is true that there are only a few DO NS programs out there, it is also true that they are all relatively young programs, most having opened within the last 15 years. The chairs of these programs range from allopathically trained DO neurosurgeons, to MD's who trained at large, well respected MD NS programs.
Many of these programs are located at large teaching hospitals that have both MD and DO residencies, level one trauma centers and major metropolitan patient bases. The case loads at several of these programs are comparable to those at most allopathic training centers. Chief residents are graduating with plenty of trauma, cerebrovascular, spine and skull-base experience. They pass certification boards and have case-load requirements just as rigorous as those of the ABNS. This is a very different situation than the one described in the previous post.
Admittedly DOs have not been very strong in the research arena, but most NS residents aren't going to spend their entire careeers in academia.
Osteopathic training is essentially no different than allopathic training. The graduates of DO colleges of medicine practice in every medical specialty. They pass boards (most of them scoring higher than their allopathic counterparts on the USMLE Step 2 and 3). They train at both osteopathic and allopathic institutions.
Until we step beyond the judgemental attitudes expressed on this board and within the match process (that hasn't matched a single DO in the last couple of years), and start training beside our DO colleagues, then perhaps we should withhold our judgements about their training programs. After all, we are all in the same boat, trying to learn to become competant skillful neurosurgeons.
Check out your info before you start slandering an entire group of colleagues and their training. You never know, they might be your senior partner or even a mentor someday.
(If you are interested, check out the programs at Riverside County/Arrowhead hospital in CA, Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine, Michigan, and Chicago to name a few.)
I know that it is more interesting to insult others and make crude comments, but this forum should be a place to exchange information not perpetuate rumors and slam colleagues.
.....sweet
 

Docgeorge

Bent Over and Violated
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Apr 1, 2002
1,538
3
341
Not on the Beach
Visit site
Status
Fellow [Any Field]
what's the address to the ns match message boards???
 

NRAI2001

3K Member
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Nov 5, 2001
4,638
48
361
Cali
Originally posted by Gibby Haynes
Check out Grandview in Dayton, Ohio. A buddy of mine was considering nsurg and talked to some of the residents. Grandview sends them to UC-Davis to train for 6 months or so. In addition, if you are a stellar applicant, don't be afraid to try to go AMA. A guy from TCOM matched nsurg at UC-Davis about 3 or 4 years ago (he was #1 in his class and had outstanding board scores). If you do stay with AOA programs, make sure you resaerch them carefully and talk with the residents. Learn as much about some AMA programs as you can, so you can make a sound judgement of AOA programs you are considering.
What is the difference between AOA and AMA?
 

NRAI2001

3K Member
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Nov 5, 2001
4,638
48
361
Cali
In what way is a DO neurosurgery training different from an allopathic neurosurgery different? Do they empashize different things? Do they do different procedures?
 

Idiopathic

Newly Minted
Lifetime Donor
15+ Year Member
Apr 21, 2003
8,362
18
351
Here
Visit site
Status
Attending Physician
I am not sure...I do know that they seem to de-emphasize lab research, and many of them are 6 as opposed to 7 years. I have talked to some high-profile programs though, that see a fair amount of cases and some heavy trauma. SO it seems as though it just has to do with location.
 

Docgeorge

Bent Over and Violated
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Apr 1, 2002
1,538
3
341
Not on the Beach
Visit site
Status
Fellow [Any Field]
When talking about PG year DO residency programs dont count the Intern year. So when they say that it's a 5 year residency, it's really 5 years after the internship year.
 

NRAI2001

3K Member
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Nov 5, 2001
4,638
48
361
Cali
Docgeorge said:
When talking about PG year DO residency programs dont count the Intern year. So when they say that it's a 5 year residency, it's really 5 years after the internship year.
So all surgery residencies start with an internship year?
 

Docgeorge

Bent Over and Violated
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Apr 1, 2002
1,538
3
341
Not on the Beach
Visit site
Status
Fellow [Any Field]
Yes, you do a specialty track internship year and then you start your surgery "residency".
 
B

Blade28

NRAI2001 said:
So all surgery residencies start with an internship year?
Not General Surgery. 5 years. Then you can do certain fellowships afterwards, e.g. Cardiothoracic, Vascular, etc.

Other surgical subspecialities have their own match, and require a prelim/transitional year first (an "internship" year). Examples include ENT, ophtho, etc.
 

Docgeorge

Bent Over and Violated
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Apr 1, 2002
1,538
3
341
Not on the Beach
Visit site
Status
Fellow [Any Field]
NRAI2001 said:
So all surgery residencies start with an internship year?[/QUOTE

All Osteopathic surgery residencies do.
 

aboo-ali-sina

Member
7+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Mar 3, 2004
72
0
0
39
Durham, NC
www.daneshmand.cc
Status
Blade28 said:
Not General Surgery. 5 years. Then you can do certain fellowships afterwards, e.g. Cardiothoracic, Vascular, etc.

Other surgical subspecialities have their own match, and require a prelim/transitional year first (an "internship" year). Examples include ENT, ophtho, etc.

even the first year of general surgery is considered an internship. so yes even general surgeons do an internship
 
B

Blade28

aboo-ali-sina said:
even the first year of general surgery is considered an internship. so yes even general surgeons do an internship
Well, yeah, technically. :) But the other guys often do a transitional year in a different program (hospital, city, state, etc.) than their "real" residency.
 

Docgeorge

Bent Over and Violated
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Apr 1, 2002
1,538
3
341
Not on the Beach
Visit site
Status
Fellow [Any Field]
Blade28 said:
Well, yeah, technically. :) But the other guys often do a transitional year in a different program (hospital, city, state, etc.) than their "real" residency.
Thats really changeing espcially in the surgical residencies. Most are now linked. You do a specialty track internship at the same hospital. The specialty track internship is like an allo sugical year but with a couple of months in the ER and on IM.
 

DOnut

Senior Member
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Dec 17, 2001
493
1
0
New Orleans, LA
Visit site
Status
Attending Physician
If I were applying to an Osteopathic neurosurgery program, I would look at NYCOM's program at Long Island Jewish Medical Center. The program is hands down phenominal. It is an ACGME parallel (not dual accredited) meaning there is absolutely NO difference between the allopathic program and the osteopathic program. Anders Cohen, DO is the faculty advisor of the Student osteopathic Surgical Association at NYCOM. He just graduated from the NYCOM LIJ neurosurgery residency program last June and he is now completeing a Pediatric neurosurgery fellowship at Cornell University New York Presbyterian Hospital. This man is a phenominal surgeon and great advisor. Honestly, if I were seriously considering neurosurgery, LIJ would be my #1 choice. I advise thouse who are interested to check it out. By the way, LIJ is a huge level one trauma center, and major teaching hospital. Her's the link. http://www.lij.edu
 

VentdependenT

You didnt build thaT
Moderator Emeritus
15+ Year Member
Oct 3, 2003
4,010
22
351
43
Louisville
www.somethingawful.com
Status
Fellow [Any Field]
Check out the Arrowhead Hospital DO neuro surg in Colton, CA. County hospital with a good volume. I'm sure your training there will be more than adequate to be a proficient neurosurgeon. One guy from my class matched there this year and he seems to be more than happy with the training provided there.
 

Idiopathic

Newly Minted
Lifetime Donor
15+ Year Member
Apr 21, 2003
8,362
18
351
Here
Visit site
Status
Attending Physician
Well, I guess I am on the right track. I am highly considering both these programs...
 

NRAI2001

3K Member
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Nov 5, 2001
4,638
48
361
Cali
Are these programs specific and limited to DO grads only?

How many neurosurgery programs in the US are there only specific to DO's?
 

Idiopathic

Newly Minted
Lifetime Donor
15+ Year Member
Apr 21, 2003
8,362
18
351
Here
Visit site
Status
Attending Physician
There are currently 10 programs that are DO-only. CareerMD lists my home school (OSU-COM) as having one, but we havent had that program for nearly 10 years...
 

NRAI2001

3K Member
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Nov 5, 2001
4,638
48
361
Cali
Idiopathic said:
There are currently 10 programs that are DO-only. CareerMD lists my home school (OSU-COM) as having one, but we havent had that program for nearly 10 years...
On the average how many spots are there in each program? These 10 programs are for DO neurosurgery right?
 

cooldreams

American Mensa Member :)
7+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Dec 11, 2003
2,063
3
0
41
Status
i think neurosurg is very potentially the way i want to go, are there any programs or anything i can get into over the summer between ms1&2 ??
 

Carbon Klein

Senior Member
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Apr 22, 2000
242
6
0
Status
I did a rotation at UC Davis and met the DO who is doing his residency there. I'm not surprised one bit he was #1 in his class, this guy is better than most MDs I've worked with. However, he did not match into UC Davis. He was unmatched and Dr Muizelaar liked him so much during his sub-I there that he signed him up for the next year and withdrew UC Davis from the SF Match for him. I got this info from Dr Muizelaar himself.

As far as the Dayton Ohio program, I met the PGY5 DO who was doing one year at UC Davis (should be finishing up this June). He told me that the Dayton program consisted almost exclusively of spine work and just rudimentary craniotomies (ie. EVD placement and occasional trauma cranis). When he came to UC Davis, he was so shocked by the high level of the UC Davis resident's performance compared to his level of performance, even when he compared his PGY5 skills and knowledge to Davis's PGY3 DO resident, he felt that the PGY3 was more knowledgeable. Subsequently, I found out that this PGY5 resident is trying (with Dr Muizelaar's help) to transfer to a different DO neurosurgery program. He will not transfer to a MD program because it will require him to start from the PGY1 year, which he is unwilling to do. I don't know how his story ended, but I hope he got a new position elsewhere. He was one of my favorite residents to work with at UC Davis, really fun guy.

The moral of the story is to make sure you know the program before signing on the line. It's hard to get into neurosurgery, harder if you're not a US grad MD, but obviously not impossible.
 

cooldreams

American Mensa Member :)
7+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Dec 11, 2003
2,063
3
0
41
Status
yea... im really getting that vibe... i want to become a DO, I am just about to start medical school. I also think (yea yea...) that this is what I want to do. I have a few interesting things up my sleeve that I think if i developed them well while in school, they would be nice pluses on a cv. So if i hit like 235+ on the USMLE and top 10% in class and honors in at least most of my 3&4 yrs, i SHOULD have a decent shot at an allopathic-ns right? the more i learn about neurosurg the more i honestly do like it, and those other things that i was talking about are why i am even interested in it to begin with.

I think that what I am trying to do and learn a DO school would be my best shot, but neither MD nor DO completely cover it. i wish that no one cared which you are, but i guess then we would not really be human....
 

Carbon Klein

Senior Member
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Apr 22, 2000
242
6
0
Status
Just because you're DO doesn't mean that you have to apply only to DO neurosurgery programs. Certainly, you'll be at a disadvantage if you applied to MD programs, but obviously you will apply to MD programs anyways. If you're smart, you'll do visiting rotations at MD programs and if you're hard-working and easy to get along with, then you'll get strong letters from attendings and hopefully, from the chairman.

As far as academic credentials goes, a MD applicant who scores about 235-245 is a good strong candidate, if you're DO, try to get some ridiculous numbers to outshine your MD competition. If you have a 240 and your MD counterpart has a 235-240, there's no gurantee that the program director base his choice on strictly the numbers. Strive for a 250 for the USMLE Step 1, but do apply to neurosurgery even if you get a 230 because you never know.

Make sure the rest of your application is strong as hell and take the extra effort to get some neurosurgery stuff onto your cv every year in medical (I did and I was an MD student, granted, I didn't get no 250 on Step 1). Stuff like abstracts/posters presented at national conferences, research papers, even case reports. Just a little something every year. It'll all add up until you will look like a publication machine. Be sure to spend time in the field, if nothing else, to fuel the fire, but also to get familiar with the lingo that comes with neurosurgery. Of course, pick up Mark Greenberg's Handbook of Neurosurgery and peruse it while you shadow your MD neurosurgeons during your time off (summer breaks, spring breaks, the months before medical school). Lots of people will tell you to relax and enjoy the summer, enjoy your spring break, enjoy your medical school years and just concentrate on your class work...those people will not be going to neurosurgery, so they can stop and smell the roses. I took the extra step and if you do too, then you may get into the field. Good luck.
 

Carbon Klein

Senior Member
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Apr 22, 2000
242
6
0
Status
If you go to the Neurological Surgery Matching Program's website at

http://sfmatch.org/

You'll see that there are about 140 spots in neurosurgery. Caribbeanmedicine.com's listing only includes the programs that reserve spots with the NRMP (National Residency Matching Program) which takes place in March. The SF Match is the early match in January and covers the majority of the spots. If I'm not mistaken, only about a half dozen spots are awarded by the NRMP while the NSMP matches the bulk of programs with residents. I matched via the NSMP and so did all my buddies on the interview trail.
 

NRAI2001

3K Member
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Nov 5, 2001
4,638
48
361
Cali
Carbon Klein said:
If you go to the Neurological Surgery Matching Program's website at

http://sfmatch.org/

You'll see that there are about 140 spots in neurosurgery. Caribbeanmedicine.com's listing only includes the programs that reserve spots with the NRMP (National Residency Matching Program) which takes place in March. The SF Match is the early match in January and covers the majority of the spots. If I'm not mistaken, only about a half dozen spots are awarded by the NRMP while the NSMP matches the bulk of programs with residents. I matched via the NSMP and so did all my buddies on the interview trail.
So there are 140 spots nation wide, do this include DO spots also? So what is the NRMP, is it only for FMGs?
 

Carbon Klein

Senior Member
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Apr 22, 2000
242
6
0
Status
I don't believe those 140 spots includes DO programs. I'm not sure how DO programs match.

I'm not really sure what the deal is with the NRMP's neurosurgery spots, but I do know that those programs that register with the NRMP also register with the NSMP/SF Match. The most important thing for applicants to do is to register with the NSMP/Early Match for neurosurgery. I registered with the NRMP, but only for my PGY1 intern prelim surgery, which was a formality since I am in an integrated PGY1 neurosurgery program (as almost all neurosurgery programs are).

I'm sure I confused you even more...that's ok, I'm confused as heck all the time, and I'm a neurosurgeon! :)
 

Carbon Klein

Senior Member
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Apr 22, 2000
242
6
0
Status
Hey NRAI2001

I just noticed you're from Cal. I'm a former Cal grad too, class of 94! Dang, I'm old! :)
 

NRAI2001

3K Member
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Nov 5, 2001
4,638
48
361
Cali
Carbon Klein said:
Hey NRAI2001

I just noticed you're from Cal. I'm a former Cal grad too, class of 94! Dang, I'm old! :)

Lol, i feel old too when i think about how old i will be when i m done with med school and residency. Most of my friends are business/econ majors and are getting jobs in sf right now, making like 70k plus bonuses starting out. There already thinking about buying houses and nice cars, lol.

What med school did u go to?
 

cooldreams

American Mensa Member :)
7+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Dec 11, 2003
2,063
3
0
41
Status
Carbon Klein said:
Hey NRAI2001

I just noticed you're from Cal. I'm a former Cal grad too, class of 94! Dang, I'm old! :)
so i take it that you are a working neurosurgeon? can you give any insight to the future of the job market for neurosurgeons? do you think it might branch off into something else and disappear or is it going pretty strong??
 

Idiopathic

Newly Minted
Lifetime Donor
15+ Year Member
Apr 21, 2003
8,362
18
351
Here
Visit site
Status
Attending Physician
cooldreams said:
So if i hit like 235+ on the USMLE and top 10% in class and honors in at least most of my 3&4 yrs, i SHOULD have a decent shot at an allopathic-ns right?
Not if you are a DO. Until DO's start matching allopathic NS, I will never believe that one has a 'good shot' at an allo NS program (of course, most MD's dont have good shots at allo NS programs). I used to consider only MD programs, but now I am feeling out DO NS programs, just because I cant fathom not becoming a neurosurgeon.
 

Bull's eye

The Gunslinger
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Apr 14, 2002
176
2
241
41
Galena, Kansas
www.ortho4states.com
Status
Attending Physician
Dude I would have matched this year at Mizzou if I wasn't offered an outside match spot (in ortho go figure). Mizzou interviewed 12 people (Total), went unmatched, then called me and asked me what they could do to get future grads to rank them higher. My USMLE was 236/95. My class rank was no 32 out of 216 (at that time). Nothing too special really. I had like 14 allopathic interviews, and honestly DIDN'T think I had a chance. So if you do well in school you can do it trust me. PM me for more details/ questions.
Mark,, DO/MBA
 

NRAI2001

3K Member
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Nov 5, 2001
4,638
48
361
Cali
Bull's eye said:
Dude I would have matched this year at Mizzou if I wasn't offered an outside match spot (in ortho go figure). Mizzou interviewed 12 people (Total), went unmatched, then called me and asked me what they could do to get future grads to rank them higher. My USMLE was 236/95. My class rank was no 32 out of 216 (at that time). Nothing too special really. I had like 14 allopathic interviews, and honestly DIDN'T think I had a chance. So if you do well in school you can do it trust me. PM me for more details/ questions.
Mark,, DO/MBA
Hi,

Is Mizzou a DO neurosurgery program? Wow not a single one of the 12 people accepted?
 

Idiopathic

Newly Minted
Lifetime Donor
15+ Year Member
Apr 21, 2003
8,362
18
351
Here
Visit site
Status
Attending Physician
Bull's eye said:
Dude I would have matched this year at Mizzou if I wasn't offered an outside match spot (in ortho go figure). Mizzou interviewed 12 people (Total), went unmatched, then called me and asked me what they could do to get future grads to rank them higher. My USMLE was 236/95. My class rank was no 32 out of 216 (at that time). Nothing too special really. I had like 14 allopathic interviews, and honestly DIDN'T think I had a chance. So if you do well in school you can do it trust me. PM me for more details/ questions.
Mark,, DO/MBA
I reiterate...until a DO matches an MD neuro program (which, refresh my memory, did not happen to you...correct?) I will not count on it happening to me. It doesnt mean that I am not going to try also, though.

Another thing...what on earth makes you think that you "would have matched" there? Because they did an exit interview with you? Plenty of institutions dont match because they dont like their candidates, and they ALL end up filling, because, lets face it, there are people who want to do neuro who dont match.

As for DO programs, the one that I am most interested in has no match, and the PD bases his decision on how much he likes working with you in your clerkship month. Pressure, indeed. I plan on applying everywhere, and I may face the same situation you did...fearing no match, I may take a spot offered, even in another specialty, just to avoid the scramble. I am a dreamer, but also a realist.
 

Bull's eye

The Gunslinger
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Apr 14, 2002
176
2
241
41
Galena, Kansas
www.ortho4states.com
Status
Attending Physician
Mizzou is Allopathic. No I didn't match MD NS, but I didn't submit a rank list either. They didn't match anyone and yes I think it is reasonabe to assume that because of an exit interview basically asking "Was it something I said?" I would have matched there. My point is that these other DO places cheat a little. They tell you where they stand. Example.. In ( a DO NS program unnamed) I interviewed at the program they told the guy who ended up matching there that he was there #1 guy. It might be a fluke but it happened twice after that. I found this out after BSing with these guys during grad week. Under the gun there is a lot of pressure and you would be dumb to tell them that "well your my number 2" (pun intended). They snatch up applicants before the official match. You seem like the type of applicant this is going to happen to. You will see what I mean. Dude I'm not telling you to bank on the MD residency. I'm saying that it is possible to land it. I'm also saying that you may be questioning where you stand in the MD match and don't want to F things up with your sure thing (the DO NS program that told you that you were #1), if things go south.
 

modelcitizen

Membership Revoked
Removed
15+ Year Member
Dec 13, 2003
211
0
0
39
san diego/palo alto
Visit site
Status
Bull's eye said:
Dude I would have matched this year at Mizzou if I wasn't offered an outside match spot (in ortho go figure). Mizzou interviewed 12 people (Total), went unmatched, then called me and asked me what they could do to get future grads to rank them higher.
Doubt it. They probably called everyone who didn't rank *them* to find out why. Doesn't mean they ranked *you*.
 

Bull's eye

The Gunslinger
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Apr 14, 2002
176
2
241
41
Galena, Kansas
www.ortho4states.com
Status
Attending Physician
I'm not going to defend this anymore. I was there. I felt that they ranked me through my conversations with them and my interview. I could care less about it now. I'm doing something else. I am really trying to help the next guy (Idiopathic et. all). I ran into no blatent DO bias on the trail. Do what you wish with it. Good luck and get good letters of recommendation. They are huge.