Do non-trads go to top 10 schools?

[augeremt]

After looking over a few years' worth of non-trad acceptance threads, I've noticed that few of us end up at top 10 schools. Why is that?

Is it because non-trads are more interested in staying near their current residence because of families, ties to the community, etc? Or are we doing GPA repair (like me) and can't feasibly be able to get a 3.9 GPA to get into Harvard Med without a few extra degrees and many years of straight "A"s? I don't know. That's why I'm asking.

I'm not trying to start a debate about the worthiness of schools and ranking and all that. I could care less. Everyone comes out a doctor regardless of what med school they went to. I'm just surprised that this is what I'm seeing.

I know I'm not going to get into a top 10 school or anywhere near there. That's not my aspiration. I'm hoping for any med school to take me in the very general geographical regions that I'm interested in. I know the kids that went to those top schools. I went to college with them, and I don't want to spend 4 more years in that kind of environment.

So, I'm sorry if this sounds a little elitist/jack@#%ery but I was just curious. I'm not trying to knock anyone down at all, I'm just curious about the trends and the motivations behind them.

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[FrkyBgStok]

it's mainly because your top 10 schools cut zero slack to non trads. they have their selection of the best applicants in the nation and your numbers aren't where they need to be, they don't care. and being that most of us have families, jobs, and other commitments while we attend school we don't have the luxury of volunteering 20 hours a week at the hospital, creating a club on campus, mentoring a young child, working as an EMT, shadowing for 2000 hours and doing years worth of research. and that's what top schools want. and they will get it, so why take someone with subpar scores?

 

[EdLongshanks]

it's mainly because your top 10 schools cut zero slack to non trads. they have their selection of the best applicants in the nation and your numbers aren't where they need to be, they don't care. and being that most of us have families, jobs, and other commitments while we attend school we don't have the luxury of volunteering 20 hours a week at the hospital, creating a club on campus, mentoring a young child, working as an EMT, shadowing for 2000 hours and doing years worth of research. and that's what top schools want. and they will get it, so why take someone with subpar scores?

I have a simpler explanation. MOST pre-meds don't go to top 10 schools. Why should a random selection of people who post on this forum be any different.

 

[QofQuimica]

they have their selection of the best applicants in the nation and your numbers aren't where they need to be, they don't care.

I agree that this is part of the explanation.

I have a simpler explanation. MOST pre-meds don't go to top 10 schools. Why should a random selection of people who post on this forum be any different.

As is this.

OP, I'd add that nontrads also tend to have different priorities than trads. Most of us aren't looking for academic careers, which unsurprisingly, is the type of career that is more in line with the mission of the top research schools. But it's not like top schools don't want nontrads who fit their criteria and their mission. When I applied in 2005, I was accepted to two of them--with full tuition scholarships.

 

[accidentprone]

I have a simpler explanation. MOST pre-meds don't go to top 10 schools. Why should a random selection of people who post on this forum be any different.

That's what I was thinking. If you look at a chart of the ages of MCAT test takers, so few people take it who are over 30 or 35 that it's barely a blip on the chart. Other than those who did a gap year or applied in their 20s there just aren't many non-trads out there. Combine that with the fact that only 2-3% of a self-selected applicant pool get acceptances at top 10 schools, and you've got your answer.

Non-trads do get interviews at top schools. I think drimpossible and myself interviewed at JHU this year for example. At JHU I met several non-trad students and heard of others, so it does happen (at least at JHU). I didn't perceive any bias against non-trads and even think being a non-trad may give one some advantages in the application and interviewing process.

I suspect that top schools don't cut anyone (non-trad or trad) much slack because they don't have to.

 

[LifetimeDoc]

There are three classifications of non-trads that come to mind...

1. Late Bloomer: over 30, had a prior career, never attended college or did well in college previously but never applied to medical school.
2. The Screw Up: messed up their GPA previously and are now trying to make amends. (incidentally this is me)
3. Young Buck: under 30, maybe had a prior career, never screwed up.

Assuming the person does well, #3 can get accepted to Top 10 just like a traditional student. #2 doesn't have a chance in h*ll. #1 can do well if not too old, or the school is looking to put some diversity in their class (i.e. the token "grandpa" or "grandma"), but it'd have to be an exceptional person that did something special or sticks out well.

 

[KickedOut]

There are three classifications of non-trads that come to mind...

1. Late Bloomer: over 30, had a prior career, never attended college or did well in college previously but never applied to medical school.
2. The Screw Up: messed up their GPA previously and are now trying to make amends. (incidentally this is me)
3. Young Buck: under 30, maybe had a prior career, never screwed up.

Assuming the person does well, #3 can get accepted to Top 10 just like a traditional student. #2 doesn't have a chance in h*ll. #1 can do well if not too old, or the school is looking to put some diversity in their class (i.e. the token "grandpa" or "grandma"), but it'd have to be an exceptional person that did something special or sticks out well.

I just want to throw my two cents in here. I am 27 and definitely fall in category #2, but I interviewed at a top 10 school last week. Feel free to PM me if you really want an idea of my stats, but my cGPA is calculated as sub-3.0.

I only bring this up to dispute your above bolded statement. I truly believe that there are several schools out there (including those in the top 10) that look at the whole applicant. Conversely, there are schools that only look at numbers and couldn't care less about a story of redemption (including a lot of schools not in the top 10). During my interview I learned some interesting info. The dean of admissions "scored" my application, ultimately leading to my interview. In a random conversation, a group of interviewees was told by another dean that this school would have no problem accepting an individual who would be rejected by a third tier medical school if they felt that the student would be a good fit for their school. Both of these point to the ability of some schools to overlook the past transgressions of someone in your category #2.

Now, realistically, do I think I am going to be accepted? No. However, I was granted an interview so I must have some chance in hell I agree that it's hard enough to get into a top 10 med school with a perfect application, but I would encourage every nontrad to apply if that's where they want to go to school. You never know what's going to happen

 

[LifetimeDoc]

Just my opinion and experience. If you are getting interviews, then that's great and encouraging! Good luck to you and I hope that you get your dream school!

Yes; there are programs that look at the whole applicant, but many that don't. Just being realistic, but there are always outliers.

 

[KickedOut]

Just my opinion and experience. If you are getting interviews, then that's great and encouraging! Good luck to you and I hope that you get your dream school!

Thanks so much, I really appreciate it!

Yes; there are programs that look at the whole applicant, but many that don't. Just being realistic, but there are always outliers.

Definitely. I think that everyone should be realistic when applying to medical school. I think non-trads have to be realistic in how their application is going to be perceived, additionally I believe that everyone (trad and non-trad alike) should be realistic when applying to extremely competitive schools.

Do your homework before you apply and only apply to schools you actually want to attend but, if you have a couple extra bucks, the worst that could happen is they will send you a fancy rejection letter!

 

[Law2Doc]

I have a simpler explanation. MOST pre-meds don't go to top 10 schools. Why should a random selection of people who post on this forum be any different.

I think this is the biggie. Actually by a strict percentage analysis, folks from my post-bac did much better than the trads. If your number is small, a few successes can be a very big percentage.

Second, you have to realize that nontrads tend to have roots (spouse, kids, a mortgage), and so while a youngster right out of undergrad may be unfettered and able to relocate to any one of the top 20 programs, a nontrad may have a geographically limiting reason he can only look at one or two of them.

But yeah, I think there are plenty of late bloomers in our midst, who never really applied themselves in college because the job they thought they wanted didn't really require it, and who though they got motivated later on and started racking up the A's never ended up with the numbers of folks who worked harder from day one in college.

And I do agree that there are additional expectations on nontrads in the process -- you need to have a better idea as to "why medicine?", "why a career change?" and "why now?" -- than the typical undergrad who is sometimes permitted to be more vague in his motivations.

And I think that nontrads sometimes are trying to do too much at the same time to show the high numbers. A nontrad may have a job, spouse, kids and other time draining demands at the same time as he's trying to squeeze in postbac courses, shadowing/volunteering or MCAT studying each night. It's thus pretty common to see the numeric stats suffer. You can only fit so much on your plate. And the top programs don't really like to give much leeway on the numbers.

So yeah, there are ample reasons for it, even though I don't actually think statistically it's the case that nontrads aren't getting looked at by the top places. In general, every program is "nontrad fiendly" if you put up the stats.

 

[DrMidlife]

I know a man who started at Stanford over 40, and I was roommates for years with a woman who started MD/PhD there at 32. Both within the last 10 years.

Both were confoundingly high-achievers in their first careers, high GPAs, high MCATs. Neither has children, neither was burdened with a mortgage or illness or self-doubt. Both are really funny and have been incredibly supportive of me.

1. Late Bloomer: over 30, had a prior career, never attended college or did well in college previously but never applied to medical school.
2. The Screw Up: messed up their GPA previously and are now trying to make amends. (incidentally this is me)
3. Young Buck: under 30, maybe had a prior career, never screwed up.

From where I sit, here in low-GPA low-tier-school land, it looks to me like there's a 4th category that explains the Stanford over-30 acceptances:
4. The Star: moving to medicine from an impressive background in something else; has an impeccable academic resume to boot.

Best of luck to you.

 

[MCAT guy]

Who cares!

I agree with Ed, Q and FrkyBgStok.

Goal = become physician

Go to the best school you can that you like, then be the best doctor you can.

People get caught up in stuff that isn't very important. Unless you plan on having a stellar research career it's a non issue.

Next question, why don't people taller than 6'5" go to Harvard?

 

[MCAT guy]

New people pay attention to all this stuff, I think once you're in school you realize the burden to become a great physician is on you and not the school you are at.

 

[augeremt]

Good luck KickedOut!

Thanks for the responses, guys (and gals). They're all pretty much what I was thinking as well but wanted to get other peoples' perspectives.

And thanks for not jumping down my throat for asking. It was more of a bored at 2 am on a Friday night observation than anything else.

 

[mjscal]

I did it so it is possible. Having said that I should say that my schooling and training was through four of the top ten medical schools and the vast majority of students were traditional. Most of the non traditional students were in their 20's and had been very good students in very good undergraduate institutions before doing a career change to medicine. Others came from PHD,MS/MA/MPH routes. A few who were older (early 30's) were very successful in other fields before changing course.

 

[KickedOut]

Good luck KickedOut!

Thanks, I really appreciate it! I've been following this board for some time but I don't usually chime in (I have a fear that adcoms may visit these boards and I'm easily identifiable). I just didn't want a nontrad to think that a school was too far of a reach and not apply based on a couple people's perspective.

Another idea is that the schools are too expensive and have no incentive to offer scholarships or tuition breaks. If they are the top schools in the country, they don't need to do much enticing to get people to go there. I have found that most private schools I have looked into are responsive to helping those with established need. Unfortunately, they all want your parent's income/asset information regardless of how old you are. I have spoken with some financial aid individuals and it makes sense why they do this (otherwise every medical student would be needy) but none of the schools have an age cutoff or a way to appeal this requirement due to circumstances. So, maybe it's just too expensive even if one was to get in. Just a thought!

I did it so it is possible. Having said that I should say that my schooling and training was through four of the top ten medical schools and the vast majority of students were traditional. Most of the non traditional students were in their 20's and had been very good students in very good undergraduate institutions before doing a career change to medicine. Others came from PHD,MS/MA/MPH routes. A few who were older (early 30's) were very successful in other fields before changing course.

Congrats, I'd really like to hear your story if you have some time. What route did you take to med school?

 

[canjosh]

Thanks, I really appreciate it! I've been following this board for some time but I don't usually chime in (I have a fear that adcoms may visit these boards and I'm easily identifiable). I just didn't want a nontrad to think that a school was too far of a reach and not apply based on a couple people's perspective.

Another idea is that the schools are too expensive and have no incentive to offer scholarships or tuition breaks. If they are the top schools in the country, they don't need to do much enticing to get people to go there. I have found that most private schools I have looked into are responsive to helping those with established need. Unfortunately, they all want your parent's income/asset information regardless of how old you are. I have spoken with some financial aid individuals and it makes sense why they do this (otherwise every medical student would be needy) but none of the schools have an age cutoff or a way to appeal this requirement due to circumstances. So, maybe it's just too expensive even if one was to get in. Just a thought!



Congrats, I'd really like to hear your story if you have some time. What route did you take to med school?

I didn't have to provide any parent income information. Maybe it's because I have kids...I'm not sure. I go to a highly ranked private school--the least expensive one in the country, I do believe.

 

[KickedOut]

I didn't have to provide any parent income information. Maybe it's because I have kids...I'm not sure. I go to a highly ranked private school--the least expensive one in the country, I do believe.

If your location really is Houston then I'm guessing that you mean Baylor...and you don't count because Baylor is cheaper than a lot of instate schools

In all honesty it's good to know that not all schools hold nontrads to the same financial aid requirements as traditional students. I was just offering up another point to consider.

 

[WashMe]

Regarding the original question...

I'm at a "Top 10" and I'd say that 10-15+ people in my class were 25+ years old at matriculation, with at least a half-dozen 27-28+. A few are in their 30's, and some have kids.

 

[eablackwell]

I think many non-trads are more down to earth than traditional pre-meds, and therefore apply more broadly, realizing how hard it truly is to get into top-tier. I applied to 14 schools, and only one of them was super high ranked. I honestly just applied to it because I'd always wanted to apply there. I knew I'd never get in. I haven't gotten a rejection yet, but I haven't gotten an interview either. Pretty sure it's limbo-land till mass reject time.

However, I'm not at all worried. I'm super pleased with where I'm at.

 

[TFS]

who cares!

I agree with ed, q and frkybgstok.

goal = become physician

go to the best school you can that you like, then be the best doctor you can.

People get caught up in stuff that isn't very important. Unless you plan on having a stellar research career it's a non issue.

next question, why don't people taller than 6'5" go to harvard?

+1

 

[WashMe]

Who cares!

I agree with Ed, Q and FrkyBgStok.

Goal = become physician

Go to the best school you can that you like, then be the best doctor you can.

People get caught up in stuff that isn't very important. Unless you plan on having a stellar research career it's a non issue.

Next question, why don't people taller than 6'5" go to Harvard?

Is there a punch line? If not, someone please make one up for us to enjoy.

 

[EdLongshanks]

Is there a punch line? If not, someone please make one up for us to enjoy.

Isn't it obvious? Let's put it in simple unfunny math for you.

There are a few hundred people on this forum who apply to medical school out of many 10's of thousands who apply each year. So we represent less that .1% of the applicants. If 2500 students are accepted into the top 10, then that means, by pure statistics, 2 or 3 would get accepted into top 10. This is about how many get in each year.

 

[WashMe]

Isn't it obvious? Let's put it in simple unfunny math for you.

There are a few hundred people on this forum who apply to medical school out of many 10's of thousands who apply each year. So we represent less that .1% of the applicants. If 2500 students are accepted into the top 10, then that means, by pure statistics, 2 or 3 would get accepted into top 10. This is about how many get in each year.

Buzzkill, I was was really hoping for a joke. I needed to hear something funny...

Anyway, it seems to me that probably 20+ people per year on SDN get into at least one Top 10, and I'm probably underestimating. Neurotic group of nerds

 

[EdLongshanks]

Buzzkill, I was was really hoping for a joke. I needed to hear something funny...

Anyway, it seems to me that probably 20+ people per year on SDN get into at least one Top 10, and I'm probably underestimating. Neurotic group of nerds

Yes the SDN general population is considerably more than hundreds and is probably a little overqualified. I was talking about this forum.

 

[jl lin]

New people pay attention to all this stuff, I think once you're in school you realize the burden to become a great physician is on you and not the school you are at.