DO NOT COME TO SOUTH AUSTRALIA (FLINDERS MED) for medicine

sglhil

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Mar 31, 2013
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    Hello everyone,

    I can strongly say that the situation has really turned around from being safe -> optimistic -> doubtful -> no hope at all.

    Until last year, 19/20 flinders internationals obtained an internship and 1 left to singapore.
    This year, most SA internationals will not get an internship in SA. Nobody got any interstate offers yet and will unlikely get one.

    SA is having major financial difficulties and is likely not gonna turn around either. They have cut down internship spots from 276 positions to 247 this year. They are planning to cut further 50 spots in 2017. Medical student enrollment is slowly increasing every year. However they are still guaranteeing domestic students internships while internationals do not even have a chance to compete with them at all. This means that even if you are the top achiever in your class, you will NOT EVER get an internship in SA.
    Some may think that connections might work but it really doesnt work that way when it comes to obtaining a public hospital internship in Australia, well at least in SA.

    Another sad thing is even if you were to get an internship somehow through CMI, there is now an oversupply of doctors in Australia and the worst in SA.

    Anecdotally, some people are not even obtaining RMO jobs either as well which means you are at a dead end of your medical career. This will likely to be an increasing trend from now on.

    This is the first year that most internationals will not obtain a public hospital intern spot in SA and will bound to get worse in the future. When I was applying to med school, I though Flinders gave the best chance for internship but now it seems like med schools in Victoria would be a better choice as they select interns on a merit-based system.

    Going back to Canada is not a good option either as it is harder than it seems to actually go back realistically. It is a lot of investment in your life and hope everybody makes an informed decision about coming to Australia for medicine from now on.

    If you were my brother/sister, I would NOT recommend coming here anymore. However, if you still want to come, you should better gear your study towards USMLE from day 1 of medical school and apply to the US which is not easy either.

    Sorry for venting, but I had to. If you have any questions, fire away and I will be happy to answer.
     
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    bashwell

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      Hello everyone,

      I can strongly say that the situation has really turned around from being safe -> optimistic -> doubtful -> no hope at all.

      Until last year, 19/20 flinders internationals obtained an internship and 1 left to singapore.
      This year, most SA internationals will not get an internship in SA. Nobody got any interstate offers yet and will unlikely get one.

      SA is having major financial difficulties and is likely not gonna turn around either. They have cut down internship spots from 276 positions to 247 this year. They are planning to cut further 50 spots in 2017. Medical student enrollment is slowly increasing every year. However they are still guaranteeing domestic students internships while internationals do not even have a chance to compete with them at all. This means that even if you are the top achiever in your class, you will NOT EVER get an internship in SA.
      Some may think that connections might work but it really doesnt work that way when it comes to obtaining a public hospital internship in Australia, well at least in SA.

      Another sad thing is even if you were to get an internship somehow through CMI, there is now an oversupply of doctors in Australia and the worst in SA.

      Anecdotally, some people are not even obtaining RMO jobs either as well which means you are at a dead end of your medical career. This will likely to be an increasing trend from now on.

      This is the first year that most internationals will not obtain a public hospital intern spot in SA and will bound to get worse in the future. When I was applying to med school, I though Flinders gave the best chance for internship but now it seems like med schools in Victoria would be a better choice as they select interns on a merit-based system.

      Going back to Canada is not a good option either as it is harder than it seems to actually go back realistically. It is a lot of investment in your life and hope everybody makes an informed decision about coming to Australia for medicine from now on.

      If you were my brother/sister, I would NOT recommend coming here anymore. However, if you still want to come, you should better gear your study towards USMLE from day 1 of medical school and apply to the US which is not easy either.

      Sorry for venting, but I had to. If you have any questions, fire away and I will be happy to answer.
      I hope all this isn't true, but if it is I'm very sorry to hear it.

      Did you apply interstate?

      Also, any chance for you to get Australian PR/citizenship somehow?
       

      Canuck455

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      May 29, 2011
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        I am a classmate of sglhil. I agree with everything he has written. If you do wish to come to Australia, avoid South Australia like he says. As of next year domestic students will miss out in South Australia, as seen here: http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/...573472495?sv=f542f46da9f474ad69893848225921e6

        Also here: http://www.fmss.org.au/home/featured-articles/intern-crisis-2016.html

        The reason this isn't more well known is because the allocation body, SA Met, has been quiet regarding the numbers until now.

        Some states (WA, ACT, Vic) are better off, but that may not be the case 4 years from now. Unfortunately for those of us in South Australia, those states have no more spots this year. Also, New Zealand no longer takes Australian international grads.

        Lastly, CMI = Private hospital internship. There are 100 spots and rumors say there are ~180 applicants, but there may be more. This program is only funded until 2018. It sounds ok, except you have to spend 48 weeks in an area of need 5 years after finishing your internship. This may not sound too bad, unless you miss out on an RMO spot. Then the federal government can sue you for breech of contract for $150k.

        All of my international classmates and myself will probably be forced to leave South Australia this year as there are no CMI spots here. You can imagine how hard people are taking it, especially if they have a partner in South Australia.

        There is talk of a merit based system coming into place next year but a lot of domestic South Australian students are openly against it. They rather we miss out than compete against us for spots.

        As for PR/Citizenship, it is too late in the year for that now. Citizenship/PR in Australia is very difficult to obtain for most people.
         
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        bashwell

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          I am a classmate of sglhil. I agree with everything he has written. If you do wish to come to Australia, avoid South Australia like he says. As of next year domestic students will miss out in South Australia, as seen here: http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/...573472495?sv=f542f46da9f474ad69893848225921e6

          The reason this isn't more well known is because the allocation body, SA Met, has been quiet regarding the numbers until now.

          Some states (WA, ACT, Vic) are better off, but that may not be the case 4 years from now. Unfortunately for those of us in South Australia, those states have no more spots this year. Also, New Zealand no longer takes Australian international grads.

          Lastly, CMI = Private hospital internship. There are 100 spots and rumors say there are ~180 applicants, but there may be more. This program is only funded until 2018. It sounds ok, except you have to spend 48 weeks in an area of need 5 years after finishing your internship. This may not sound too bad, unless you miss out on an RMO spot. Then the federal government can sue you for breech of contract for $150k.

          All of my international classmates and myself will probably be forced to leave South Australia this year as there are no CMI spots here. You can imagine how hard people are taking it, especially if they have a partner in South Australia.

          There is talk of a merit based system coming into place next year but a lot of domestic South Australian students are openly against it. They rather we miss out than compete against us for spots.

          As for PR/Citizenship, it is too late in the year for that now. Citizenship/PR in Australia is very difficult to obtain for most people.
          Let's hope the rumours about 180+ applicants aren't true and it's not so bad. If you can get a CMI spot, then that should be good. Nothing necessarily bad about doing internships at someplace like Greenslopes. I have friends there and they think it's great. There are some areas of need which are actually decent places to live for a year too.

          Obviously I hope international grads tried applying interstate prior to CMI.

          For future applicants, I'd recommend trying to go to med school in the country you want to end up practising. If that's Australia, then I'd strongly recommend (if at all possible) to get PR/citizenship prior to coming to Australia. Apply to med school as a local too, not international (which may have higher admissions standards but it's worth it in the long run). It seems to me many developed nations (not just Australia) are trying to as maximally as possible fill their own healthcare systems with their own graduates, which is fair enough. Hence, in future it's probably only going to get more difficult for international students in many developed nations (e.g. Australia, NZ, Canada, USA) to stay in these nations. If you want to practise in a particular nation, then try to be a resident or citizen of that nation. That's the only real security, at least as far as I can tell. Just my perspective, hopefully others will have better advice.
           

          rayjay

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            Agreed. Another Flinders class of 2015 grad here.

            We all had a meeting with the dean of our school, the head of SAMET (the governing body of medical education and training in SA) and the chief medical officer of south Australia.
            All the information that's been posted above has come from the horses mouth so to speak.

            If you're considering Flinders or Adelaide Uni for 2016 and onwards, don't.
             

            bashwell

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              Agreed. Another Flinders class of 2015 grad here.

              We all had a meeting with the dean of our school, the head of SAMET (the governing body of medical education and training in SA) and the chief medical officer of south Australia.
              All the information that's been posted above has come from the horses mouth so to speak.

              If you're considering Flinders or Adelaide Uni for 2016 and onwards, don't.
              Damn, sorry to hear about SA.

              I'm guessing applying interstate didn't work out for many.

              Hopefully you guys can find something through CMI.

              If you guys are Canadian, surely Canada can't be all that impossible for someone who has Canadian citizenship, knows the culture, etc (or otherwise you would've known beforehand and not applied to go overseas right)? At least some small glimmer of hope?
               
              T

              torontopharm

                If you guys are Canadian, surely Canada can't be all that impossible for someone who has Canadian citizenship, knows the culture, etc (or otherwise you would've known beforehand and not applied to go overseas right)? At least some small glimmer of hope?
                About 60% chance of coming back to Canada from Australian schools..given you go through the whole process. Pretty good odds considering other img options as Canadians. Still a tough road though.
                 
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                petyr_baelish

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                  If you guys are Canadian, surely Canada can't be all that impossible for someone who has Canadian citizenship, knows the culture, etc (or otherwise you would've known beforehand and not applied to go overseas right)? At least some small glimmer of hope?

                  This is pure speculation on your part, and I just want to point this out so that other readers do not get false hope from statements such as this. It is extremely difficult to get residency in Canada if you complete your medical degree abroad.

                  I am going to speak generally about the climate in Canada from the perspective of other popular countries to study medicine as well, so hear me out.

                  Canadian IMGs have less than a 50% match rate in Canada as a whole. I would never bet 300k and 4 years of my life on odds worse, or slightly better than, if you believe that 60% number, a coin toss. You'd be better off learning poker and going to Vegas. You'd get a better return on your investment. But I digress, included in those "less than 50% match" stats are Irish grads. Ireland fares the best on average for placing Canadians back home. That said, the match rate from Ireland ranges from 40-75%. That variability makes me extremely uncomfortable. Another digression: Canadians in Ireland used to be able to count on an Irish internship because they are over-worked and underpaid over there. There is also a severe shortage of doctors over there due to emigration. Despite that, there is now talk this year that some people missed out on internships there.

                  Personal connections are a large factor in matching in Canada as an IMG as well. So if you aren't well-connected with a solid residency plan that includes doing rotations/observerships before you graduate, you'd be foolish to head over to Australia and think you can just apply for residency with good grades/board scores. There are plenty of domestic Canadians networking for 2 whole years before the program directors know you exist.

                  From another angle: This year, American DO students are considered IMGs in Canada and are only eligible for the second iteration of residency placements (the leftovers after domestic Canadian MD grads get spots). I'm not sure but I think Canadian Australian grads only had the second iteration from the beginning.

                  IF YOU READ NOTHING ELSE IN THIS POST:
                  This year, the Canadian government is limiting the 'statement of need' letters they are giving to Canadians studying in American MD/DO schools. This piece of paper is necessary to get the American visa to start work as a resident in the USA. The limits are in family medicine as well which used to be unlimited. The disaster this has caused for Canadian MD/DO grads who have already matched can be read on this forum. Just search for "statement of need."

                  This debacle shows that Canada is trying to limit the number of GPs returning to Canada which is unprecedented. This applies to Canadians who think they will go to Australia, do an American residency and then return to Canada. It also speaks to the general climate in Canada. They are not going to automatically accept highly skilled Canadians who went abroad and they are closing more loopholes every year with alarming speed. Why? Well I can speculate that its because they are starting to have enough doctors to fill their needs.

                  http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hcs-sss/hhr-rhs/postgrad-postdoc/cat_b-list-liste-eng.php
                  http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/canadian-statement-of-need.1151050/
                  http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...ical-schools-in-the-us.1166428/#post-17032372
                   
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                  bashwell

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                    This is pure speculation on your part, and I just want to point this out so that other readers do not get false hope from statements such as this. It is extremely difficult to get residency in Canada if you complete your medical degree abroad.

                    I am going to speak generally about the climate in Canada from the perspective of other popular countries to study medicine as well, so hear me out.

                    Canadian IMGs have less than a 50% match rate in Canada as a whole. I would never bet 300k and 4 years of my life on odds worse, or slightly better than, if you believe that 60% number, a coin toss. You'd be better off learning poker and going to Vegas. You'd get a better return on your investment. But I digress, included in those "less than 50% match" stats are Irish grads. Ireland fares the best on average for placing Canadians back home. That said, the match rate from Ireland ranges from 40-75%. That variability makes me extremely uncomfortable. Another digression: Canadians in Ireland used to be able to count on an Irish internship because they are over-worked and underpaid over there. There is also a severe shortage of doctors over there due to emigration. Despite that, there is now talk this year that some people missed out on internships there.

                    Personal connections are a large factor in matching in Canada as an IMG as well. So if you aren't well-connected with a solid residency plan that includes doing rotations/observerships before you graduate, you'd be foolish to head over to Australia and think you can just apply for residency with good grades/board scores. There are plenty of domestic Canadians networking for 2 whole years before the program directors know you exist.

                    From another angle: This year, American DO students are considered IMGs in Canada and are only eligible for the second iteration of residency placements (the leftovers after domestic Canadian MD grads get spots). I'm not sure but I think Canadian Australian grads only had the second iteration from the beginning.

                    IF YOU READ NOTHING ELSE IN THIS POST:
                    This year, the Canadian government is limiting the 'statement of need' letters they are giving to Canadians studying in American MD/DO schools. This piece of paper is necessary to get the American visa to start work as a resident in the USA. The limits are in family medicine as well which used to be unlimited. The disaster this has caused for Canadian MD/DO grads who have already matched can be read on this forum. Just search for "statement of need."

                    This debacle shows that Canada is trying to limit the number of GPs returning to Canada which is unprecedented. This applies to Canadians who think they will go to Australia, do an American residency and then return to Canada. It also speaks to the general climate in Canada. They are not going to automatically accept highly skilled Canadians who went abroad and they are closing more loopholes every year with alarming speed. Why? Well I can speculate that its because they are starting to have enough doctors to fill their needs.

                    http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hcs-sss/hhr-rhs/postgrad-postdoc/cat_b-list-liste-eng.php
                    http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/canadian-statement-of-need.1151050/
                    http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...ical-schools-in-the-us.1166428/#post-17032372
                    I'll just point out it's not speculation for the simple fact that I didn't speculate. Rather, I asked a question: Is it so impossible for a Canadian to get back to Canada from Australia? (Apparently the answer is closer to yes than no). I'm glad you've set forth helpful information for your fellow Canadians, but no need to misrepresent what I said or didn't say to do so. (Unless you didn't grasp what I said and are thus making an honest mistake).

                    Anyway, I'm not Canadian, so none of this is relevant to me. But I do wish Canadians all the best in going where they want to go.
                     
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                    T

                    torontopharm

                      This is pure speculation on your part, and I just want to point this out so that other readers do not get false hope from statements such as this. It is extremely difficult to get residency in Canada if you complete your medical degree abroad.

                      From another angle: This year, American DO students are considered IMGs in Canada and are only eligible for the second iteration of residency placements (the leftovers after domestic Canadian MD grads get spots). I'm not sure but I think Canadian Australian grads only had the second iteration from the beginning.

                      This year, the Canadian government is limiting the 'statement of need' letters they are giving to Canadians studying in American MD/DO schools. This piece of paper is necessary to get the American visa to start work as a resident in the USA. The limits are in family medicine as well which used to be unlimited. The disaster this has caused for Canadian MD/DO grads who have already matched can be read on this forum. Just search for "statement of need."

                      This debacle shows that Canada is trying to limit the number of GPs returning to Canada which is unprecedented. This applies to Canadians who think they will go to Australia, do an American residency and then return to Canada. It also speaks to the general climate in Canada. They are not going to automatically accept highly skilled Canadians. Why? Well I can speculate that its because they are starting to have enough doctors to fill their needs.

                      http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/canadian-statement-of-need.1151050/

                      They're still CMG's in BC and Quebec. Although at the rate DO's are losing the CMG status, i'd guess it won't be for long. Australian grads were always second iteration.
                      I see the "statement of need" issue being raised everywhere but is it really that big of a deal? In 2013, 260 out of 412 total Canadians applicants (for all specialty) matched via NRMP. I realize thousands of Canadians are studying abroad, but i don't think a lot of them apply/make it via NRMP in the first place. As it stands, ~300 and ~200 visa's are issued for FM and IM respectively. It's not as great as when these used to be unlimited, but from looking at the # of Canadians going through NRMP yearly, the visa issue doesn't seem THAT big of a deal to me even considering the fact that the # issued are anticipated to decrease further. Perhaps i'm not understanding the process or missing something in my thought process.
                       

                      sglhil

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                        yes it is still one of the better options amongst godzillians of IMG med schools out there. For me though, the Australian option and in particular Flinders was an attractive option because traditionally, everyone who wanted an intern position got one providing a safety net if one cannot go back to North America. If this was not the case, I would not have come here as I would not risk 300g of loans witha 60% chance.

                        The 60% acceptance rate for going back to Canada is biased too because not everyone is able to make it to the application phase due to many reasons. The people who actually made it to the final application phase are actually really bright and worked really hard to make it there. And then, the success rate is 60%. In my opinion, that is not the risk I am willing to take with such a huge loan...But I guess, risk tolerance is different for everyone so...
                         

                        DendyPretendy

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                          Wow a lot has been said here. I'm Canadian, leaving for Griffith university in January, about to do my 4+ years in the state of Queensland. To those IMGs finishing up in SA, do you guys have an idea as to where you will be in a year or two?
                           
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                          sglhil

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                            Wow a lot has been said here. I'm Canadian, leaving for Griffith university in January, about to do my 4+ years in the state of Queensland. To those IMGs finishing up in SA, do you guys have an idea as to where you will be in a year or two?
                            As of now, 3 got interstate offers in NT (who actually rotated there in 3rd/4th yr), 1 definitely going back to singapore, rest are still waiting for CMI internships/Singapore/Canada. So, still more waiting to do.

                            Thank god we still have CMI internships until 2018. After that, there is no gaurantee that CMI will still be there.
                             

                            bashwell

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                              Wow a lot has been said here. I'm Canadian, leaving for Griffith university in January, about to do my 4+ years in the state of Queensland. To those IMGs finishing up in SA, do you guys have an idea as to where you will be in a year or two?
                              1) Congratulations to you for getting into medical school! :)

                              2) I'm not entirely sure about Qld, but a year or so ago I remember hearing Qld health had problems with the government, senior doctors resigning and junior doctors not getting adequate training. However I've heard they've sorted this out. But maybe others can confirm?

                              3) You needn't necessarily worry about any of this now but please see here in case you're interested.
                               

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                              med_in_oz

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                                Going to Australia is definitely a BIG RISK if you're dead set on where and what residency you want to do, but I don't think it's as big a risk if you're flexible and make sure you keep all your doors open. I'm aiming for internal medicine, as there is lots of options after, but happy with family medicine as well. I'm Canadian and I'm planning to write my USMLE's so the way I see it, let's say I have a 60% chance at matching back in Canada, and 20% matching in the US (much higher if I do really well on USMLE and apply to family/internal), even if Australia offers only 10% thats 90% chance I'll match somewhere.

                                I know I've over simplified the math here, but I just wanted to say that if you're flexible where you do your residency, and make sure you keep all your doors open, work really hard, the risk of not matching (maybe not your top choice) is not that bad.

                                Just my 2 cents
                                 
                                T

                                torontopharm

                                  That is about the same chance from Irish schools. For Canadians, Irish schools seem to be a better option.

                                  Definitely. Irish schools are a great option.
                                  But i feel like Australian schools are "safer" because there's some chance of staying back after graduation. Irish internships are difficult to get without being a EU citizen.
                                   

                                  bashwell

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                                    Definitely. Irish schools are a great option.
                                    But i feel like Australian schools are "safer" because there's some chance of staying back after graduation. Irish internships are difficult to get without being a EU citizen.
                                    I agree with this. If someone is choosing between Australia vs Ireland, I'd definitely recommend Australia over Ireland. Not just for intern positions, but also for jobs beyond the intern/RMO years. At least anecdotally speaking, and perhaps this is sample bias, but I know heaps of Irish doctors in Australia, and they tell me how much better their lives as physicians are in terms of salary, hours and benefits than in Ireland. In fact, I suspect much the same could be said about UK physicians. Heaps of junior physicians from UK escaping the NHS and relocating to Australia.
                                     

                                    DendyPretendy

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                                      As of now, 3 got interstate offers in NT (who actually rotated there in 3rd/4th yr), 1 definitely going back to singapore, rest are still waiting for CMI internships/Singapore/Canada. So, still more waiting to do.

                                      Thank god we still have CMI internships until 2018. After that, there is no gaurantee that CMI will still be there.

                                      NT is Northern Territory right?
                                       

                                      UBC2014

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                                        Going to Australia is definitely a BIG RISK if you're dead set on where and what residency you want to do, but I don't think it's as big a risk if you're flexible and make sure you keep all your doors open. I'm aiming for internal medicine, as there is lots of options after, but happy with family medicine as well. I'm Canadian and I'm planning to write my USMLE's so the way I see it, let's say I have a 60% chance at matching back in Canada, and 20% matching in the US (much higher if I do really well on USMLE and apply to family/internal), even if Australia offers only 10% thats 90% chance I'll match somewhere.

                                        I know I've over simplified the math here, but I just wanted to say that if you're flexible where you do your residency, and make sure you keep all your doors open, work really hard, the risk of not matching (maybe not your top choice) is not that bad.

                                        Just my 2 cents

                                        Your numbers are wrong here. As a Canadian IMG, your odds strictly speaking at getting a residency, would be higher for US residencies than Canadian ones(irrespective of the actual rough percentages), assuming you make it through all the necessary steps to make it to the point of submitting a competitive application to both application processes..

                                        The actual numbers themselves...well 60% is very optimistic.

                                        You're over-optimism may prove to be very ironic when you actually get to that point.
                                         

                                        Bangsar

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                                          Does anyone know anything about ANU. It says all of their graduates are guaranteed first year internship including International students. Does anyone have any info in Year 2. I'm also wondering why there aren't many people talking about that school in this forum. Just wondering if I'm missing out on something. BTW, I'm a Canadian .
                                           

                                          DendyPretendy

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                                            Your numbers are wrong here. As a Canadian IMG, your odds strictly speaking at getting a residency, would be higher for US residencies than Canadian ones(irrespective of the actual rough percentages), assuming you make it through all the necessary steps to make it to the point of submitting a competitive application to both application processes..

                                            The actual numbers themselves...well 60% is very optimistic.

                                            You're over-optimism may prove to be very ironic when you actually get to that point.

                                            One of the main streams through which Canadians come to Australia is Oztrekk. As of this year, they quote the 60%, so that's where the number is coming from. I am sitting in bed so I ain't gonna look for the specific chart that I've seen tossed around, but I did indeed just google carms IMG match rate on my phone. I clicked on table 50 which should show IMG application stats. 2013 it looks to be 48 matches out of 75. 2014 was 42 out of 81. 2015 was 46 out of 73.

                                            Again this was just a quick google, so if I am reading these charts wrong or am looking at the wrong stats, I will gladly take fault, but let me know!
                                             
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                                            Transition

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                                              I've been trying to warn people for years about all this to no avail. I am sorry you guys are now in this position. It is truly and utterly **** and I wish you the best of luck. South Australia proved to be the worst choice of the bunch and I apologize for ever recommending it, but the circumstances leading to the current climate were completely unpredictable. Who would have thought they would completely turn around and drop support for internationals? So happy I left that state...

                                              I am now a pgy2 going into 3 next year in Queensland. If you guys can find internships, know the job market does open up significantly afterwards. I just hope you can get that almighty general registration and subsequent permanent residency.
                                               
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                                              Nov 7, 2015
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                                                Dear All,

                                                Thanks for posting this info guys from Flinders - I am a UK citizen, I want to eventually live and work in Australia as a doctor.

                                                Flinders aside / if you are reasonably flexible on specialty/interests are there jobs interstate for those willing to move about in order to get permanent residency following an international medicine degree in Australia? I am willing to work in DWS for this cause. I have a high GAMSAT score and believe have a strong chance of entry in jan 2017.

                                                Have any of you lived through being an international medical student in australia? if so please state which university and the opportunities open to you following the degree!

                                                Many thanks
                                                 

                                                pitman

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                                                May 23, 2003
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                                                Queensland via Boston
                                                  I'm Canadian and I'm planning to write my USMLE's so the way I see it, let's say I have a 60% chance at matching back in Canada, and 20% matching in the US (much higher if I do really well on USMLE and apply to family/internal), even if Australia offers only 10% thats 90% chance I'll match somewhere.

                                                  I know I've over simplified the math here...
                                                  If one assumes the chances for a match at each is independent, then the correct calculation would not be to add each of those odds up (if the odds were 50%, 50%, and 10%, that obviously doesn't mean you'd have a 110% chance at matching!), but would be:

                                                  1 - (odds of not matching at any) =
                                                  1 - (100-60%)*(100-20%)*(100-10%) =
                                                  1 - 0.4*0.8*0.9 =
                                                  1 - 0.288 =
                                                  ~71%
                                                   
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                                                  med_in_oz

                                                  Full Member
                                                  Jul 16, 2015
                                                  17
                                                  1
                                                  1. Medical Student
                                                    Yes I know I oversimplified the math, but realistically matching in the US and Australia are much more than 20% and 10%. The US is all based on your Step 1 scores, but assuming I score average on the step 1 and apply to FM and IM it's closer to 60% matching. For Australia, seeing as those that have wanted to stay have all found a seat, 10% is way below what I think it will be, but keeping it at that, the odds are now already 85% of matching somewhere.

                                                    Another thing you guys always forget is that in Ontario only 5% of applicants get accepted to medical school, I don't know about you but that sounds a lot less than my chances of matching if I go to Australia.
                                                     

                                                    spine0624

                                                    New Member
                                                    Apr 12, 2015
                                                    2
                                                    0
                                                      Just read this thread, and it really makes me worried. I was accepted in the early round of application for Flinders and accepted my offer back way back. I later got acceptance from ANU, Qld, and Griffith, but since I already paid my deposit, I turned down the offers. A big regret after reading these posts...
                                                      USMLE was already on my list so I guess Ill be studying very hard for it from day 1...
                                                       

                                                      zikitee

                                                      New Member
                                                      Oct 1, 2012
                                                      8
                                                      1
                                                        if one were a Canadian/American and already started med school in Australia, only to receive an offer from a Canadian/American school a few months into the course, and chooses to pack up and head back home for their own domestic school, how is it usually viewed by other people (specifically fellow classmates, staff, faculty, friends)?

                                                        Would this person be seen as someone who lacks commitment?

                                                        What if it was for very justifiable reasons e.g., financial motivations (domestic is much cheaper than international), for future residency/training securities (given the whole internship crisis), and also because family wants him/her to be back home with them?

                                                        The one thing I quite afraid of, is being remembered as "the guy who came to Australia only because he couldn't get into his own school, seeing the way he's ditching us as soon as his domestic school offered him a spot." If I were to return home (not because I personally want to, but because it makes more sense for my family to do so), i'm afraid it will give Canadians/Americans a bad name.

                                                        Is this an unfounded fear?
                                                         
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                                                        pitman

                                                        Grasshopper
                                                        15+ Year Member
                                                        May 23, 2003
                                                        1,651
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                                                          You'd be one of many "guys who came to Australia..." only to leave that way. Every year at UQ in the previous decade there would be two or three who'd do just that, and we had far fewer N. Americans then.

                                                          I don't think it's an ethical issue, but simply a matter of what you want to do. The school gets whatever money they'd made you deposit up until then (which system is meant to cover just that sort of contingency), and from my experience, few make a serious issue out of it, probably because many N. Americans would reflect and realize that they might have made the same call if in a similar situation.

                                                          Some will argue that you've 'wasted a space' that year for one other (int'l student, since it's a quota thing), but schools take into account whatever attrition trend they have or expect, and there are so many places for int'l students in total that it's not of the same magnitude as say, taking an internship job (where the shortage begins) and then leaving after a few months after getting a US/Canadian residency.

                                                          In the end, it's not like you'd have a stigma for doing this.

                                                          Anyway, that's my take on it.
                                                           

                                                          rayjay

                                                          Full Member
                                                          10+ Year Member
                                                          Apr 17, 2010
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                                                            The one thing I quite afraid of, is being remembered as "the guy who came to Australia only because he couldn't get into his own school, seeing the way he's ditching us as soon as his domestic school offered him a spot." If I were to return home (not because I personally want to, but because it makes more sense for my family to do so), i'm afraid it will give Canadians/Americans a bad name.

                                                            Is this an unfounded fear?

                                                            Does it really matter?

                                                            Would you really continue paying insane tuition fees versus going to your home where you're with family and possibly paying a fraction of the cost just to avoid hurting someone's feelings, or saving face in front of strangers?

                                                            I applied to Canada the year I left for Australia fully intending on leaving in May if I got an offer. I did not sadly, but I wouldn't have hesitated if I had.

                                                            As Pitman says, leaving midway through your internship is a much bigger deal. You're depriving someone of the mandatory step to registration in Australia. By leaving after starting med school you're *maybe* depriving someone off one year, but odds are they got into another Australian school, so really I wouldn't worry about that.
                                                             
                                                            Last edited:

                                                            rayjay

                                                            Full Member
                                                            10+ Year Member
                                                            Apr 17, 2010
                                                            328
                                                            8
                                                            Canada
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                                                              Here's an update.

                                                              I'm a Flinders graduate...as of this Tuesday :)

                                                              I can only speak for Flinders and a few from Adelaide in terms of numbers.

                                                              As of writing this (Dec 12, 2015):
                                                              19 international students in Flinders class of 2015

                                                              - 4 offered Flinders internship
                                                              - 2 offers Royal Adelaide internship (at least 1 adelaide grad offered RAH also, definitely more, I just don't know them)
                                                              - 1 offered Northern network internship (declined for CMI)
                                                              - 1 offered country health internship (2 adelaide grads offered country health also)
                                                              - 3 offered NT internships (Alice Springs)
                                                              - Remainder have accepted CMI positions (Perth)
                                                              - 1 has chosen to go back to home country

                                                              Ultimately everyone who wanted something in Flinders got something, through CMI or state.

                                                              Keep in mind however:
                                                              - The following years are supposed to be significantly worse. 2017 is expected to see the first wave of domestic SA graduates missing out, its all over the news if you don't believe me. The internationals of 2015 met with SAMET, the dean and the CMO of SA Health. The numbers aren't great and its hard to believe they'll be able to make up the difference (~ 30+ spots short). Unless 30+ people fail across both schools...
                                                               
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                                                              jedrek

                                                              Full Member
                                                              2+ Year Member
                                                              Jan 2, 2015
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                                                              1. Pre-Medical
                                                                Here's an update.

                                                                I'm a Flinders graduate...as of this Tuesday :)

                                                                I can only speak for Flinders and a few from Adelaide in terms of numbers.

                                                                As of writing this (Dec 12, 2015):
                                                                19 international students in Flinders class of 2015

                                                                - 4 offered Flinders internship
                                                                - 2 offers Royal Adelaide internship (at least 1 adelaide grad offered RAH also, definitely more, I just don't know them)
                                                                - 1 offered Northern network internship (declined for CMI)
                                                                - 1 offered country health internship (2 adelaide grads offered country health also)
                                                                - 3 offered NT internships (Alice Springs)
                                                                - Remainder have accepted CMI positions (Perth)
                                                                - 1 has chosen to go back to home country

                                                                Ultimately everyone who wanted something in Flinders got something, through CMI or state.

                                                                Keep in mind however:
                                                                - The following years are supposed to be significantly worse. 2017 is expected to see the first wave of domestic SA graduates missing out, its all over the news if you don't believe me. The internationals of 2015 met with SAMET, the dean and the CMO of SA Health. The numbers aren't great and its hard to believe they'll be able to make up the difference (~ 30+ spots short). Unless 30+ people fail across both schools...

                                                                Looks like it's worth a shot,20 internationals into graduate entry. Prepared to return home to practise, MD is well-accepted at my home ground. :)
                                                                 

                                                                pitman

                                                                Grasshopper
                                                                15+ Year Member
                                                                May 23, 2003
                                                                1,651
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                                                                Queensland via Boston
                                                                  Here's an update...
                                                                  Ultimately everyone who wanted something in Flinders got something, through CMI or state.
                                                                  Flinders was first to go grad in Australia (specifically so that it could attract N. Americans), so I'm glad to see that its grads aren't being stranded. And congrats, rayjay.

                                                                  Let this thread serve as a reminder (cf. comparable threads every year going back a decade) that nearly all claims of doom and gloom wrt internship prospects are premature (once again, it has always been the case that grads continue to get jobs until at least January, and spots are malleable*). This is not to say that things are all rosy for those thinking of coming to Australia, and future prospects certainly could get worse as is currently being projected by SA.

                                                                  *As an anecdote, consider that Qld Health itself was predicting imminent doom for Qld when the tsunami began, yet magically, at the 11th hour (most sensationally in 2007), spots were 'found' despite the official proclamations, er, political posturing. Hopefully SA will continue to want to keep their share of the market, won't want a nasty political backlash, and will sort things out.
                                                                   
                                                                  Last edited:

                                                                  rayjay

                                                                  Full Member
                                                                  10+ Year Member
                                                                  Apr 17, 2010
                                                                  328
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                                                                    Flinders was first to go grad in Australia (specifically so that it could attract N. Americans), so I'm glad to see that its grads aren't being stranded. And congrats, rayjay.

                                                                    Let this thread serve as a reminder (cf. comparable threads every year going back a decade) that nearly all claims of doom and gloom wrt internship prospects are premature (once again, it has always been the case that grads continue to get jobs until at least January, and spots are malleable*). This is not to say that things are all rosy for those thinking of coming to Australia, and future prospects certainly could get worse as is currently being projected by SA.

                                                                    *As an anecdote, consider that Qld Health itself was predicting imminent doom for Qld when the tsunami began, yet magically, at the 11th hour (most sensationally in 2007), spots were 'found' despite the official proclamations, er, political posturing. Hopefully SA will continue to want to keep their share of the market, won't want a nasty political backlash, and will sort things out.

                                                                    Thanks! Funny to think we chatted before I was even in med school and here I am about to finish. As always, your sage wisdom was appreciated then and now.

                                                                    I think the issue was following the meeting we had with the state and the university we had a grim picture painted for us. Thankfully it worked out, but our year was one of the smaller years to come through, for whatever reason we had high rates of deferrals/drop out to the year below. They're expected to get hit harder and the mistake in over-admitting at Adelaide Uni for 2017 is huge.

                                                                    As you say, hopefully they try and avoid the political backlash but SA has proven this year that they'll bend over backwards to help a domestic but internationals are thrown to the curb (even their tone when speaking with them personally and over the phone reflects that). The allocation was designed this year to give locals they're highest preference which resulted in us only getting offers as late as end of November/December, dangerously close to when we had to sign the scary CMI contracts.

                                                                    Ultimately I'm happy it worked out for all of us but I think what all us Flinders grads are saying is go somewhere else and avoid SA. States like Victoria which give you a chance at competing for example. Or Queensland where you can actually rotate through some of the CMI hospitals and know what you're about to commit to.
                                                                     
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                                                                    REDHAWK2

                                                                    Full Member
                                                                    Nov 27, 2014
                                                                    25
                                                                    4
                                                                      Thanks! Funny to think we chatted before I was even in med school and here I am about to finish. As always, your sage wisdom was appreciated then and now.

                                                                      I think the issue was following the meeting we had with the state and the university we had a grim picture painted for us. Thankfully it worked out, but our year was one of the smaller years to come through, for whatever reason we had high rates of deferrals/drop out to the year below. They're expected to get hit harder and the mistake in over-admitting at Adelaide Uni for 2017 is huge.

                                                                      As you say, hopefully they try and avoid the political backlash but SA has proven this year that they'll bend over backwards to help a domestic but internationals are thrown to the curb (even their tone when speaking with them personally and over the phone reflects that). The allocation was designed this year to give locals they're highest preference which resulted in us only getting offers as late as end of November/December, dangerously close to when we had to sign the scary CMI contracts.

                                                                      Ultimately I'm happy it worked out for all of us but I think what all us Flinders grads are saying is go somewhere else and avoid SA. States like Victoria which give you a chance at competing for example. Or Queensland where you can actually rotate through some of the CMI hospitals and know what you're about to commit to.

                                                                      Hi Ray Jay,
                                                                      Congrats on the internship!
                                                                      I can't even imagine the stress of investing 300000$ and being left stranded. I will be heading down there to study medicine this January. What advice would you have in terms of things you can do to maximze your chances of attaining internship, as well as obtaining residency in Canada? Is it viable to study for the step 1/2 and try to match in the U.S as well or would you spread yourself thin? Did any of your classmates attempt to come back to Canada, and if so were they successful in doing so? Sorry for the barrage of questions.
                                                                       

                                                                      Starriz

                                                                      New Member
                                                                      Jun 15, 2016
                                                                      2
                                                                      0
                                                                        Hi Ray Jay,
                                                                        Congrats on the internship!
                                                                        I can't even imagine the stress of investing 300000$ and being left stranded. I will be heading down there to study medicine this January. What advice would you have in terms of things you can do to maximze your chances of attaining internship, as well as obtaining residency in Canada? Is it viable to study for the step 1/2 and try to match in the U.S as well or would you spread yourself thin? Did any of your classmates attempt to come back to Canada, and if so were they successful in doing so? Sorry for the barrage of questions.

                                                                        Hi Redhawk,
                                                                        I accepted a recent offer and I am heading down to Flinders to study medicine in 2017. May I ask if the situation is still as dire or is there are any new initiatives in future? I accepted fully aware of the internship crisis and that CMI is until the year 2018.
                                                                        I plan to focus on getting the best education I can get out of Flinders but I do feel worried that I might get stranded.

                                                                        Anyone else heading down in 2017?
                                                                         
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