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Discussion in 'General International Discussion' started by DO-2-BE, Jan 2, 2002.
i HAVE RECENTLY BEEN ACCEPTED INTO A DO PROGRAM. ALSO SGU. WHICH SHOULD I CHOOSE AND WHY?
At times I really can't believe theses sorts of questions are genuine postings. Are you insane? The order of choice is MD school (US), DO school (US), then the others.
(1) Even though residency positions run at about 110% of students there is talk of reducing this. Also, there are two more DO schools opening. These factors will make it even tougher to get back into the US.
(2) Even if you do get a residency here (SGU has good results) you will not have much of a selection, both in terms of location and speciality. A friend of mine has just started her residency in FP after two years of trying.
(3) Cost. Why would you pay $30,000 for a third rate degree? Even the most expensive DO schools don't run that high. Also, once on Grenada you're a captive "customer" - you'll have to pay whatever they charge for accom - throw in flights etc, and it's a costly option.
(4) There is zero chance of gaining a scholarship (Nat Health, Army etc) at SGU. At a DO school these are just as available as at a MD school.
I could go on. For those people who don't make it into even DO school then SGU might be the last option. But, if someones MCAT and GPA is not good enough for DO then they'll probably fail at an off shore school anyway. And before people start jumping all over me I realize that there will always be exceptions.
Really, why make life tough on yourself. Perhaps you see DO as being 2nd rate and everyone will know you didn't make it into MD school. Just put that aside and stay in the US. Treat OMM as any other class and just deal with it. Once you're done with school and in a residency program the MD /DO thing wont seem so important.
In my opinion, if you are asking opinion on whether to become a DO vs becomming a Carribean MD, you should go with the MD. My reasoning is this; to even consider SGU over an american DO, merely shows that you consider Osteopathy as second rate. In my opinion, you are not at all interested in the 'alternative' nature of DO, and just want to be a doctor.
What is the use of wasting so much of your time learning about things you despise? I'm not saying that it is 'wrong' to think like this...
In summary, if you ask for my advice, it's that you go to Grenada. You want to be an MD.
Stop being a rude and thoughtless *****! Some people don't even apply to MD school. My God, I know that comes as a shock to you. Stop making DO school out as a second rate option. Come off your high and mighty throne and strip yourself of that attitude. You know what, insecurity plays a big role in trying to make others feel bad. Have a little compassion.
If you don't want to become an osteopathic physician, then don't do it, be true to yourself. From what I hear, SGU is a great school and they attain pretty nice residencies.
The two new DO schools are in Georgia and Utah...I don't know specifics, but I think they are opening in the next year or so.
I would go to the DO school. I find it funny that Justin and Purifyer think that because you are considering both MD and DO school that somehow you "despise" the DO education or you think that DO is "second-rate". Being a foreign medical graduate will immediately narrow down your choices of residency and the pool in which you may compete. And although completing an MD at SGU and passing USMLE will show your medical competence, some people may question your education. You will figure out whether you like or dislike the OMM aspect of DO once you have studied it. Good luck whichever you decide...
Pretty simple to me. In general, you will have a harder time finding desirable residencies as a FMG than a DO.
The hierarchy is this: american MD, DO, FMG. No way around it, that's what it is. However, if you cannot stomach the fact that you will have to explain what a DO is, go to the Caribbean.
An osteopathic education is in no way second rate. Look at the each respective cirriculum. Maybe there is preference as to which degree should be sought, but this does not relate to the quality of the education itself. I do not know enough about the foreign schools to provide any useful commentary, but I understand residencies are limited.
DO-2-BE, make up your mind and follow your hearts desire. If you are good enough, and you are in light of your acceptances, you will make it. What is seemingly more "prestigous" is not always best.
Unfortunately I still don't follow your reasoning.
It doesn't make sense is that you think that SGU is such a bad place and then you want him/her to go there. Doesn't that seem kind of funny to you? The original poster didn't give too much information so we don't know the reasons why he/she is debating SGU over a DO school but it seems illogical to say "SGU sucks so you should go there."
I still vote for DO school...
THANKS TO EVERYONE WHO RESPONDED. i AM STILL UNSURE AS TO THE PATH THAT i SHOULD TAKE. i THINK MY MAIN CONCERN WITH DO SCHOOL IS THE WHOLE "ALTERNATIVE" MEDICINE REPUTATION IT HAS. I AM NOT INTERESTED IN OMM (OR WHAT EVER IT IS CALLED). i AM INTERESTED IN BEING A DOCTOR IN THE TRADITIONAL SENSE. i AM NOT SO MUCH BOTHERED BY THE "DO" BEHIND MY NAME AS I AM THE "MANIPULATION". THE ADVICE I HAVE GOTTEN IS TO TREAT THIS AS A REQUIRED CLASS, LEARN IT, AND MOVE ON. I DO NOT THINK THAT DO'S ARE LESS EDUCATED OR QUALIFIED THAN THERE MD (AMERICAN OR CARIBBEAN) COUNTERPARTS. i THINK IT IS MORE A FUNCTION OF THE INDIVIDUAL DOCTOR AND HIS/HER WILLINGNESS TO WORK HARD AND LEARN WHAT HE/SHE NEEDS TO KNOW IN ORDER TO BE NOT ONLY COMPETENT AND COMPASSIONATE.
i HAVE ALSO HAD THE PLEASURE OF WORKING WITH SOME EXCELLENT RESIDENTS FROM SGU AND ROSS. PLUS, THE CAMPUS OF SGU IS REALLY NICE. i REALLY THINK MOST PEOPLE FROM SGU GET DECENT RESIDENCIES. TO ME IT IS A MATTER OF LEARNING THE OMM OR LEAVING THE COUNTRY FOR TWO YEARS. I GUESS THE CHOICE IS OBVIOUS TO SOME OF YOU, BUT FOR ME IT IS A LITTLE TRICKY. THANKS AGAIN TO EVERYONE FOR YOUR ADVICE AND GUIDANCE. WE WIL ALL BE DOCTORS ONE DAY, REGARDLESS OF THE LETTERS BEHIND OUR NAMES OR WHERE WE WENT TO SCHOOL.
i think SGU would cost you a lot more than going to a D.O. school. If i'm not wrong, the 4 years of med school at SGU is counted as 5 academic years so you pay 30G x 5 (instead of 4). As far as education, i don't think it'll be that much different between any med school, MD, DO, Carribean MD but lifestyle wise, you better prepare yourself for a change living in the islands. Best of luck.
Keep in mind that most SGUers must travel about some to do clinicals. This usually entails higher cost than doing clinical in more or less the same general vicinity, i.e, all within driving distance from your stable residence.
I think it's ignorant to write off OMM because some people consider it "alternative medicine" for the following reasons:
1. The feds are opening up a National Institutes of Health OMM research center at the University of North Texas. That should dispel any notions of OMM being an "alternative" modality.
2. I can personally attest to its efficacy. I'm a post-bacc premed right now. I have a 3.8 science, 3.97 bachelor's in English literature, was editor in chief of my college newspaper, and won a ton of awards, etc. Assuming I do tolerably well on the MCAT, I could have my pick of, at the very least, my state MD schools. But I'm choosing DO, namely PCOM, because, aside from a strong family connection, I'll be able to go into ANY field of medicine PLUS I'll know OMM, which cured my irritible bowel syndrome. I'm totally serious. I had suffered with this for 2 years, and I went to an OMM specialist who manipulated my lower back and 3 hours later the cramps and, er, other symptoms went away--and I'm talking on a permanent basis. It's incredible.
So I'll put it this way for you. You can go into any field of medicine you want by graduating DO or SGU. (Of course, if you want to be a neurosurgeon or something like that it will be a lot easier--comparatively--to do this as a DO. Recall, for instance, the increasing presence of DOs in the ALL the allopathic programs.) That said, I look at OMM as a nice little bonus. Although I wouldn't specialize in it, the doctors who do make A TON of money. We're talking some serious cash. (Which is another testament to its efficacy, of course.) Point being, say you're a DO radiologist or ER doc (what I'm interested in). You can have a cush little OMM practice on the side.
Remember, don't base your decision on reputations you get from other people. There will always be people who consider the DO degree sub-par, or "that other" medical degree. There are also a lot of people in whom you won't instill a lot of confidence by telling them you went to medical school in the Carribean. But in the end, only you have to live your own life, not others, and if you'd be happy as a DO then go for it! You'll reap the rewards both financially and intellectually.
Plus, flying all over the place sounds like a real pain in the @$$.
To me I think its this simple,
If getting an M.D. behind your name is that important to you, go to SGU. The quality of education is very good I believe. Just living at a foreign country requires an adjustment though. If, however, you're don't care about the M.D. thing and just want to practice medicine, I would choose the D.O. route.
In my opinion, the M.D. thing and D.O. arguement is a little overstated. We're both colleagues working on the same goal ultimately becoming a physican. And for those who think D.O. is second-rate or something, well, I don't know how to address that. Just having a D.O. or M.D. doesn't make you secon-rate. Its what you make of your opporunities and your abilities that are far more important.
So, I think either way you go, you're not shooting yourself in the foot. Just be true to yourself. Thats all.
Personally, I think it would be pretty exciting to live in another country and experience medicine from many different perspectives, as you would in the Caribbean. If you're the kind of person who really enjoys travelling around and seeing the world, SGU is a good way to do it.
Not only will your life be enriched, but so too will the lives of your future patients, as your understanding of the world and the people in it will be much broader.
The price quoted for WVSOM is only for out-of-staters. Granted unless DO-2-Be can prove he has a WV residency, he would be charged that, but that is not the cost of tuition for everyone.
But DO-2-be, it sounds like to me you really have already made your decision. Your heart is telling you go MD, so go and don't worry about it.
Mstuart, you know, I think you are very open-minded person, and I like that.
Interestingly enough, as has been discussed herewith before, the DO vs MD thing really isn't an issue once you become a physician. I know there are a fair few DOs doing residency at Hershey, but with 1 or 2 exceptions, I couldn't tell you WHO they are. All I know is that Mike is a Peds resident, or that Susan is IM - I don't know whether they are MD or DO (even though it says on our name badges). I won't assume that there is a stigma elsewhere, just that I haven't seen it and have heard others with experiences similar to mine. So if you're worried about the stigma, IMHO its a lot worse coming from SGU than a DO program (then again, I REALLY don't know where people went to medical school...)
Just my 2 cents...
I went through the same decision process you are going through DO vs. foreign MD. I visited many DO's and foreign MD's and to be honest the foreign MD's were no different from American trained MD's. No one ever asks, but they do ask "what is a DO?" I had <a href="http://www.foreignmedschool.com" target="_blank">www.foreignmedschool.com</a> help me pick the right foreign school. I am very happy studying for my MD degree in England right now.
If your patient asks, "What's a DO," then you could always, I don't know, tell them... Seriously though, when I was old enough to know that my family doc was a DO and not an MD, I asked him what a DO is and he said to me, "DO is an MD who learns more ways to make you well." Slightly oversimplified, but worked for me. After all, what's the difference? If you feel as though you're going to justify your degree to everybody who looks at your nametag, then don't go DO. If you can take pride in the fact that you graduated from DO school, a chance only 1 in 5 applicants gets, go DO. In the latter case, if someone asks you what a DO is, just tell them you're "an MD with extra training" if it makes you fell better. Who cares? The point is: you're the physician they're asking in the first place! (IMHO, of course.)
I also don't think it's true that nobody asks a doctor where they went to medical school. Many people now lookup physician credentials using the free Doctor Finder service at <a href="http://www.ama-assn.org," target="_blank">www.ama-assn.org,</a> which notes the medical school of every physician in the country. It's kind of ignorant to think that nobody's going to check up on your credentials, especially when someone's life is in your hands, and in the age of the Internet, no less!
Anyway, I think a huge factor here should be what kind of doctor you think you might want to be. Unless you're really interested in doing a residency in neurology, PM&R, psych, or a questionable program in IM, FP, or GS, don't be a FMG from a Carribean school.
Whereas DOs have their own residencies, and 50% of them do MD programs--in EVERY speciality, including neurosurg (UC Davis, for example) and ortho--FMGs, unless you're a really fantastic FMG or you stand out above all the rest for some reason, will always get the leftover spaces in the perenially unpopular specialties. While DOs are increasingly gaining acceptance in even the most tradition-rooted of allopathic institutions (there are DO residents at Harvard and Hopkins now), Carribean FMGs will always be Carribean FMGs. This is really unfair, in my opinion, because I'm sure many Carrib FMGs are as good if not better than their American counterparts. When I was a kid, one of my pediatricians was a Carribean grad and he was awesome. But that's just the way it goes.
Things might be different at SGU. Beats me. But SGU or not, there is still a very potent stigma against Carrib grads. And I've seen SGU's match list. While a select few grads got (IM?) spots at very prestigious hospitals, the rest did not.
One of my parents is a senior administrator at a large US medical school, and this is what he told me. If you're that desperate to have MD after your name, get MD after your name. But be near perfect on the USMLE-1 if you want to break out of the Carribean grad residency syndrome.
I hope it works out for you!
Not to belabor this subject, but being a DO does not automatically require you to use OMM in your future practice. I'm a nycom first year and one of our best anatomy and neurosci professors is a DO pathologist. Do you think he still remembers and employs OMM? Probably not. Same goes for a DO anesthiologist or surgeon. Hell, a good portion of my class has a parent that's an MD. Do they care their kid is in DO school? Not a bit. Think of OMM as another tool in your bag. MDs have been brainwashed into thinking the only way to heal the human body is to give it a drug or cut it open to fix it. OMM is often a much less invasive way of treating any numbers of musculoskeletal problems. Dont knock it if you've never tried it. Regardless of OMM, we take all the same classes, pass the same boards, and complete the same residency as any MD. DO education, in reality, is more comprehensive. I learn everything they do, plus more. What I choose to use in practice is my own perogative.
There's actually a student in my class who started at st georges and hated it so much he left and came here. A domestic degree is far and away more desirable than any foreign diploma. Believe me. NYCOM even has a program for foreign MDs who want to be DOs in the states. There's about 40 of them in each class.
Moral of the story...if you want to be a doctor, stay here. If you want to be an "M-D", reexamine your priorities.
Just my $0.02
Actually, OMM is used by many osteopathic surgeons--graduates of both MD and DO residencies--in the treatment of postoperative pain.
I don't think this post needs to be propagated further. I think that any question that falls under the rubric "Carribean vs. DO" will be answered conclusively by looking at the post in this forum entitled, "In response to the DO vs. SGU post," which was started by the deluded wife of an SGU student who was under the false impression that more SGU students get into competitive residencies than DO students. I suggest that anyone reading this go find it.
Notice on that list of residencies of people from SGU that Ortho, Neurosurgery, ENT, plastic, Ophtho, and Radiology are really missing. In my osteopathic school-- people get into these specialties every year (there are very few people who even want to go into these specialties). A SGU or Ross student is completely shut out of these fields. We have the osteopathic and allopathic match programs to try. They can not hold a commission in the military (no HPSP scholarship for them) (the former surgeon general of the Army was a DO). Well go and be whatever you want-- but realize that in the end--------you shoot yourself in the foot by going abroad. I say so what if a DO can not practice in every country-----The only way I will be going abroad is with the army anyway. I am a third year and I have been through OMM-- and so what I will still be able to compete with people for ortho or general surgery spot.
Here's another point. I want to be a DO more than anything. The fact that I could get into, at the very least, my state MD schools means nothing to me. I know of so many people who, like me, are applying to DO school and only DO school because they want to be osteopathic physicians.
On the other hand, I've yet to meet or even read about anyone--ANYONE!--who grows up wanting to be a Carribean-trained MD.
There's nothing to be ashamed of in choosing to go to the Carribean to get your allopathic degree. But I suggest that you lose your egos before one of your patients looks at you funny when you tell them that you went to medical school in the Carribean!
Oh, and for the few of you seriously considering SGU over an osteopathic medical school, I suggest you look at the famous "IN RESPONSE TO THE DO vs. SGU POST," which debunks SGU's last great argument over osteopathic medical school, "You're more likely to be a specialist if you go SGU!"
Hedwig, grow up!
Thanks, Mom. You're really a special human being for pointing that out to me.
Who the hell are you to judge what anybody thinks? Need I remind you:
"You know, treating the "cause" or the "whole person" rather than just the "symptoms" is nothing but BS. Well, Eastern or Alternative medicine, whatever you call it, suppose to treat the cause, not just the symptoms. Therefore, it takes a little more time to heal or cure compare to the western medicine. But this is not true. These eastern practitioners THINK they treat the cause, but trust me, they don't. It's just like those OMT techniques. Those DOs think they are OMT practitioners, but only less 10% of DOs actually practice the OMT techniques.
So, go figure."
Like all these Carrib students, you need to do your research before you make stratospheric declamations about things you know nothing about. "Those" DOs couldn't practice OMM if they wanted to. It takes an hour to do it right, yet insurance companies let you spend 15 minutes with a patient. You do the math... Also, OMT is not curative. It's an adjunctive treatment for musculoskeletal problems. So again, you haven't a clue what you're talking about. Moreover, the "alternative" in "alternative medicine" is not capitalized. It's not a proper noun.
Keep your opinions to yourself. You're no genius, buddy.
Get a life, Hedwig. I wish I had a lot of time like you, so I could write long a$$ letters just like you do everyday. If you have time to write long a$$ letters on this forum, you should get yourself a few friends that you never had and have some fun outside of this "cyber" world. Or at least you could study for MCAT just to keep yourself busy. That way, you won't look like a person who spends all of your time on this forum.
Just my $0.02
Again, how colorful.
Okay, gentlemen (or lady and gentleman, as the case may be).
I think that you should go to a DO school over SGU. As an FMG you will be last in the pecking order for choice residency spots and competitive specialties, even if you are a great physician. And if the cost is much cheaper to go DO, it's a slam-dunk. Live in the US, smaller loans, and better residencies (all else being equal). I do not see much of a downside. Educating patients about a "DO" degree, is a small price to pay for the opportunties you gain.
I think anyone that was really looking into the matter would choose a D.O. program over a foreign program...the opportunites for DO graduates are expanding while "island" graduates are shrinking. And, as has always been invisioned, DO's are seen as having something "extra" to offer patients whether that be in the office or clinic. It gives us a unique perspective. Granted, DO programs are expensive and the schools have the most unrecognizeable-generic names EVER (U of Des Moines yippee! etc), but the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages.
And yep, I had just worked with an orthopedic surgeon who used OMT in the office.
OMT works, fixed my back pain.
I lived in Japan for a year teaching English and I can say that living abroad isn't for everyone.
I think you've received a lot of good advice, but I think you need to ask yourself, also, how well you might adapt to an island without 1/2 of the amenities that you're used to. And you know that you're going to want to come home at least twice a year which will not only cost money, but be a little bit disruptive. You won't really know what its like until you're there. If you can speak to a good number of grads and get there input, you might have a reasonable idea of how stir crazy you may become.
A friend of mine was a non-traditional applicant and attended medical school in Puerto Rico. He is now an FMG MD working a staff position at Charity hospital in New Orleans. He is respected among his peers and is an excellent doctor.
I considered SGU as an option if I didn't get into medical school because I am getting older and want to get through this before I'm forty. (I considered it a fall-back if I was rejected in the states) I referred to him for advice and he DID NOT recommend becoming an FMG. His reasoning included the additional testing required to return to the states, bias towards FMGs, and difficulty in obtaining a decent residency. He strongly advised against it as an option.
However, it can be done. There are many students that are willing to put out the extra effort to become a successful US physician after a foreign education. It may be more difficult and expensive, but it's a decision that can only be made by you. As long as you recognize that it is a valid, but sometimes more challenging path, go for it.
I've been accepted to DO school and I can say that I'm thrilled and excited. I applied only to osteopathic programs and know that the philosophy fits my future goals more succinctly than the allopathic programs. To make a decision between foreign med school versus DO, you need to know which program matches your needs.
Good luck with the decision.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by mistirvr:
<strong>A friend of mine was a non-traditional applicant and attended medical school in Puerto Rico. He is now an FMG MD working a staff position at Charity hospital in New Orleans. He is respected among his peers and is an excellent doctor.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That would be San Juan Bautista SOM.
I can tell you one thing and this can be heard from many residents...ANY RESIDENCY would rather have a D.O. fill an unfilled spot for residency rather than a FMG. I have heard that over and over from residents to private attendings. So all things being equal, and there was one spot left...the DO would get it.
I don't understand why someone would be biased against using OMM or manipulation before even STARTING medical school? Where does this attitude come from? Manipulation is recognized by the Agency of Health Care Research and Quality (AHCRQ) as a bonafide therapy for acute low back pain. Manipulation under anesthesia (MUA) is used every day by MD and DO orthopods for adhesive capsulitis (frozen shoulder). Physical therapists have "high-jacked" a ton of different forms of manual treatment all derived from osteopathy and get paid for it! My DO attending, who is double boarded in pulmonology and critical care, used it TODAY in the clinic for a simple case of musculoskeletal rib pain...and got paid for doing it! Where do premeds get this attitude from?? Are they afraid to touch patients? What is it?
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">ANY RESIDENCY would rather have a D.O. fill an unfilled spot for residency rather than a FMG </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually this isn't true. I've written to about 20 differnent MD General surg residencies, and asked whether a grad from a school in Ireland would be less competetive than a DO grad. The results were about a 50/50 split, some preferred the Irish grads (FMG's) and some the Do's.
I agree with Jim. I do know of a radiology residency program in NJ that allots 2 positions for FMG's and will NOT interview a DO. Also, despite countless DO's rotating through the NSUH @ Manhassat surgery program, they have never taken a DO and have been littered with FMG's throughout the years. Despite these exceptions, I still feel that being a DO you will fair better than a foreign grad in the match.
I don't think that one can make generalizations about FMGs for the following reason: not all foreign schools have the same reputation!
A grad from one of the Israeli schools or a European or Argentine or Indian school that's part of an actual university, will have an easier time than a SGU grad, who will have an easier time than a grad from Ross, who will have an easier time than someone from the "International University of Health Sciences," who will have an easier time than a grad from the Carvel College of Ice Cream Knowledge and Medicine in Madagascar or the University of Terrorism and Health Sciences of Saudi Arabia and on and on and on.
However, the trend of osteopathic physicians doing competitive allopathic residencies is very much up, whereas the opposite holds true for FMGs (except for the Sackler School of Medicine of Tel Aviv University, which is accredited by the State University of New York and is not regarded as foreign in New York State)--this is definitely not the golden age of FMGs.
I chose a D.O. school over 2 MD schools (Wayne State and Vermont), turned down interviews at 2 MD schools (Penn State and Michigan State) and withdrew the rest of my applications - in November of the year I applied.
OMM can be curative, it depends on what you are using it for. It is not only for musculoskeletal problems.
Consumers spent $20 billion on "alternative" medicine (2000 data).
I have had asthma all of my life, but wasn't diagnosed till I was 19. I can't exercise for very long without needing my inhaler (not even one lap of the track). I can run 3 miles without using it now, ever since having a few treatments on my ribs to increase my A-P diameter. It's obvious that people with severe kyphosis have trouble breathing because of changes to their A-P diameter that make it hard for them to expand their lungs. Cases do not need to be that extreme and obvious for people to understand the relationship between structure and function. if you took my hip and squished it up towards my ribs, you wouldn't be surprised that my kidney isn't functioning as it should be. Subtle structural changes cause subtle functional problems, and vice versa. That's how I make sense of some osteopathic treatments.
I don't consider D.O. schools second-rate. I think it's a shame that some people do. I also don't think all M.D.s are uncaring, stuffy people. I think it's a shame that some people do. Can I do anything about it? No. So I won't preach it here. If anyone has any questions about D.O. schools or osteopathy in general though, I'd be happy to answer them.
Food for thought: To those considering D.O. who aren't sure they want D.O. or think they can blow off OMM, starting with my graduating class, there will be a practical portion of the COMLEX in which you will be tested on your manual OMM ability. This doesn't mean that you have to use it in practice, but it will be part of your board scores. I don't know how important allopathic residencies will consider it to be if you bomb it, but I wouldn't risk it.
I rarely give, "polarized" replies, but here goes:
I think DO 2 BE's "dilemma" really illustrates some of the issues surrounding this "alternative" DO identity. In reality, it is the pre-medical students or new matriculating students that are most influenced by rumor or just plain misinformation. The very fact that you are concered with the "manipulation" aspect of DO education means that, with all due respect, you have not done your research. DO's have nothing more to prove with regard to their newly acquired mainstream identity. We take the same licensing exams, compete for many of the same residencies, and rotate alongside 'regular' MD students. If what you really want is to become a, "doctor," then the manipulation aspect of DO school shouldn't bother you in the least. It is without doubt that vestiges of AT Still's bonesetting dogma might influence OMM/OPP faculty members. Indeed, you may even be exposed to techniques that you think might not have any basis in fact. In this new age of medicine, where consumers are sometimes more informed than their healthcare providers, the future physicians MUST take an open-minded approach to health. Even if you despise OMM classes, you most certainly will take some valuable technique away from the hours and hours of manipulative medicine laboratory. Will you still dislike manipulative medicine even if you relieve some patient of their chronic back pain??? Even if you have no "manipulative epiphany," this OMM "alternative" stuff is a SMALL part of the DO identity. Osteopaths are PHYSICIANS first, manipulative medicince providers second. So, choose whichever school gives you the best opportunity. If the DO stigma really bothers you, then do the ostepathic med schools a favor and leave a slot for someone keenly interested (since you already have a choice). Anyway, best of luck wherever you go. Residency is the least of your worries in the rigourous first year.
Class of 2005
Some reasons to go DO over foreigh MD....
1st) There is no guarantee when you go foreign! With a DO, you are bound to be a doc in the USA (100% guarantee unless you drink your 4 years away). You cannot have that guarantee no matter which foreign MD you go to! Let me repeat, no matter WHICH foreign school you go to. AND all foreign MD's need to pass EXTRA tests just to have a chance to practice in the US. I really don't understand this debate because this is 40+ years of your life we are talking about. I can understand that people as college undergrads want to experience a "different" culture etc. and as an undergrad he or she can do that freely. No problem. That is an excellent idea. BUT once you are a med student, you are viewed differently. The whole USA wants you to be a competent physician for the country and not kill somebody. Hence all the regulations and the extra tests you need to take ONCE you go abroad for that MD. But lol be hold, you have a chance to stay in the US and be a doc by going through a DO program. And be guaranteeed a doc. It bewilders me that anyone would want to throw that chance away. But of course, if you are super cocky and think that you can go to a foreign MD and kick all the asses out there and come back in the USA by passing all the tests that are out there and shine with your MD, then please go foreign.
2nd) same as above
3rd) same as above
4th) Why do DO's and foreign MD's get stigmatized even among some doctors? Because they are different and most (if not all) graduates were probably rejects on the mainland MD schools before seeking a so-called "second" option. But with DO admissions becoming tougher and tougher and with the quality of matriculants (in terms of GPA and MCAT) goes up fast, I can see that in the future, that stigma might not even exist at all (right now, there is minimal stigma already). And there are some who choose to go DO over some MD schools. But do I see that with SGU? Some dude choosing SGU over Wayne State? No way in another 126 years of our lifetime or even beyond. But do you see the "increasing in quality" for the students that matriculate at SGU, Ross, Ireland programs, or others? No, I don't see that coming. For many of those programs, just as long as you have a pulse with some dough, you have a good chance to be admitted. The stigma will ALWAYS be there with this trend.
Of course, this does not apply to English, Australian, Indian, etc. schools whose graduates are their own nationals who had to compete fiercely to get into their country's own programs. I am only referring to foreign MD schools that cater to US citizens who cannot get into their own med schools and have to go to schools that are for-profit, diploma mills.
While you do bring up some things to think about, I really hate how people on this board talk **** about stuff they really have no idea about. Thewonderer, it's people like you who perpetuate the stigmas. While you say nothing completely incendiary in your post, your subtle attitude and misinformation is just as dangerous.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Thewonderer:
[QB]Some reasons to go DO over foreigh MD....
1st) You cannot have that guarantee no matter which foreign MD you go to! AND all foreign MD's need to pass EXTRA tests just to have a chance to practice in the US. This is true.
I can understand that people as college undergrads want to experience a "different" culture etc. and as an undergrad he or she can do that freely. No problem. That is an excellent idea. Jeopardizing your career is definitely a situation that you have to think very carefully about. But to look down upon someone as "crazy" who is actually bold enough to do it and try to throw off that fear is wrong. Yes, there is an opportunity in undergrad and the summer/years afterwards to travel, experience a new culture. But what about those who have a compulsion to truly integrate another's culture into individual outlook? here, I think I am going to lose you and the others like you who don't understand why one could possibly want to go out of the US for a truly diverse method in obtaining a holistic approach in life and in medicine.
It bewilders me that anyone would want to throw that chance away. But of course, if you are super cocky and think that you can go to a foreign MD and kick all the asses out there and come back in the USA by passing all the tests that are out there and shine with your MD, then please go foreign. Wow. YOU are the one being cocky, arrogant, closed-minded by thinking that it can't be done. While foreign graduates do have to score high, they also work harder for it. It's not a matter of how smart or capable they think they are...they do have to put in a lot more time to ensure their success. And while that is extra work/time, the benefits of enriching your life in a foreign country can outweigh the sacrifices. Also, some foreign graduates do not get phenomenal scores and "shine or kick ass". They seem to do just fine. Get off that high horse that are implicit in YOUR statements. It bewilders me how egocentric and US-centric some people are. I am not being unpatriotic in saying this, but the US is NOT the end-all and does NOT have the absolute best approaches to every single thing. You can study in books all your want with regards to other cultures and practices, but in implementing them into your practice, you must spend time in a foreign country for a lengthy period. Integrate their mindsets into your own mode of thinking.
But do I see that with SGU? Some dude choosing SGU over Wayne State? No way in another 126 years of our lifetime or even beyond. But do you see the "increasing in quality" for the students that matriculate at SGU, Ross, Ireland programs, or others?
I do not understand how hard it is for people to accept what is different. Would you have such a hard time accepting someone choosing SGU over Wayne State? Ok, we won't use this since the caribbean schools are a little different in attitude from other international schools. Is it then that difficult for you to accept that someone would WANT to go to Ireland or Australia instead of a state school? Which brings up another point. Get your facts straight. Irish schools enjoy a very high reputation. I am not going to compare SGU and Ross to it because there's a dichotomy between caribbean and other foreign schools. Ireland should not be included in that list. In the Atlantic bridge program, through which north americans apply to irish schools, there is a 100% match rate and a 94% pass rate for the boards. Tell me how that does not indicate a high standard in quality. The irish schools are placed among English, Australian and other past-commonwealth schools and produce excellent quality physicians. As a matter of fact, the American Pediatrics Society (or whatever their full formal name is) has close ties with Trinity College and the Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland. The Australian schools like USydney and UMelbourne are equivalent to TOP 5 SCHOOLS in the US, and Flinders Univ. lauded and equal to Harvard. I have no idea where the Caribbean schools stand and how they are approached, but for you to make generalizations such as that the quality is not increasing at those fine schools as well is simply misguided opinion and it's dangerous for the whole medical and pre-medical community for you to be propating such opinion without having a clear knowledge of the facts. QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Going back to the original poster, all i have to say is simply...do whatever is right for you. You will have to do a lot of soul-searching to figure out what your priorities are. How much do you want to go abroad? Are you only looking at it as an escape route? How much do you value the ideals behind osteopathic medicine? Do you want an MD that badly over a DO? Do you want the opportunity to work abroad in the future? All these must be judged for yourself and yourself only. Don't let anything we say or argue for influence your final decision, as we give biased examples of those issues. Good luck!