Do people here still hate California Northstate?

[gyngyn]

And CNU is improving those stats as well, not to mention the dozens of other schools across the country (unlike Hispanics, the sex ratio doesn't change much state to state). Why are we critiquing old faults instead of supporting that they are fixing these so called issues?

They are being required to fix completely avoidable, egregious errors.
These were errors committed in haste in order for their investors to start seeing a return on investment.
These investors are still in charge of the school.

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[PasteMD]

They are being required to fix completely avoidable, egregious errors.
These were errors committed in haste in order for their investors to start seeing a return on investment.
These people are still in charge of the school.
We can judge them by their acts.

Do you know the stats of applicants in their first class? I certainly don't so to criticize that is unfair. Based on my talkings with M3s, seems to sound like they didn't have many females applying or interviewing for the inaugural class.

And like I said, med ed laughably criticized 2020 as a rookie mistake since they enrolled 5 more males instead of females, yet UCI enrolled 4 more and they are a-okay!

 

[cactusman]

@PasteMD 's point that is very apparently lost on this crowd is that by fanning the flames of unintelligent and one-sided discussions about CNU you are directly harming current students. We won't *have* a chance to succeed or fail on our own merits when we've been drug through the mud for the 4 years leading up to the Match.

That's a weak argument, though. DeVry is a predatory system which provides a poor education at an enormous price; I feel bad for the students, but that doesn't mean no one should point out DeVry's massive flaws because it might hurt the students. The administration is responsible for the issues, not the people who bring them to light. If a non-profit institution began highly predatory practices, it would still be wrong to let the administration do the wrong thing for the sake of protecting the students.

 

[gyngyn]

Do you know the stats of applicants in their first class? I certainly don't so to criticize that is unfair. Based on my talkings with M3s, seems to sound like they didn't have many females applying or interviewing for the inaugural class.

We would all like to know!
Since they didn't use the universally accepted method of evaluating, accepting and matriculating that class (AMCAS), the only information we have is what the school decides to say. This is the same level of reliability we have for Caribbean schools.

 

[PasteMD]

That's a weak argument, though. DeVry is a predatory system which provides a poor education at an enormous price; I feel bad for the students, but that doesn't mean no one should point out DeVry's massive flaws because it might hurt the students. The administration is responsible for the issues, not the people who bring them to light. If a non-profit institution began highly predatory practices, it would still be wrong to let the administration do the wrong thing for the sake of protecting the students.

But unlike devry, CNU has to undergo an extensive accreditation process, and despite their supposed shortcomings, LCME still granted them another year (non-probation) to fix mistakes. Hell, Rosy F was on probation not too long ago and they're still going strong.

Since they didn't use the universally accepted method of evaluating, accepting and matriculating that class (AMCAS), the only information we have is what the school decides to say. This is the same level of reliability we have for Caribbean schools.

And yet I get called out for strawmen. Still haven't mentioned why UCIs ratio along with other schools aren't rookie mistakes but 50 40 is

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

And yet I get called out for strawmen

That's not what a strawman is.

 

[cactusman]

But unlike devry, CNU has to undergo an extensive accreditation process, and despite their supposed shortcomings, LCME still granted them another year (non-probation) to fix mistakes.

And I never said DeVry is particularly similar to CNU. I was using it as a well-known example of an educational institution whose actions have drawn in profit but significantly harmed academic quality. If CNU has done the same (to a lesser extent, and in different ways) its administration should still be criticized.

 

[PasteMD]

That's not what a strawman is.

And neither was my initial argument. To further bash the devry comparison, we're forgetting CNU also already has an established pharmacy school.

 

[gyngyn]

And neither was my initial argument. To further bash the devry comparison, we're forgetting CNU also already has an established pharmacy school.

I haven't forgotten. This is what made their inaugural MD class eligible for Title IV funds.
Neither the pharmacy nor the medical students were given that opportunity. If there were an economic incentive to deny the medical students, they could have at least let the Pharm students have it. It was at their expense that the others became eligible.

 

[PasteMD]

I haven't forgotten, this is what made their inaugural MD class eligible for Title IV funds.
Neither the pharmacy nor the medical students were given that opportunity. If there were an economic incentive to deny the medical students, they could have at least let the Pharm students have it. It was at their expense that the others became eligible.

So by all means, keep your argument to that. Don't make empty, uneducated posts like faculty, URM, and sex ratio to make a mountain out of a mole-hill. Like I said from the beginning, no federal loans is a problem. I'm aware of it, students are aware of it, LCME is aware of it. The other "arguments" are nothing more than a means for you two to tout a clearly biased horn.
Like Gnome said, you two obviously have some disdain for for-profit schools (like they pissed in your cereal Day 1), but don't let that blind you to create false arguments and conveniently ignore things they are actually doing well in (like faculty and preceptor recruitment, the fact that LCME even upped the class to 90, how they were extended instead of placed on probation).

 

[gyngyn]

Like Gnome said, you two obviously have some disdain for for-profit schools (like they pissed in your cereal Day 1), but don't let that blind you to create false arguments and conveniently ignore things they are actually doing well in (faculty and preceptor recruitment).

Please identify any false statement I have made.

 

[PasteMD]

Please identify any false statement I have made.

Goro's post talking about the "5 points". Faculty scholarship being disproven. Ratio and Hispanics being a country-wide problem, yet he conveniently is only using that for CNU.

 

[gyngyn]

Goro's post talking about the "5 points". Faculty scholarship being disproven. Ratio and Hispanics being a country-wide problem, yet he conveniently is only using that for CNU.

With regard to scholarship, two sets of Ob-gyn Chairs have served who would have barely passed muster for voluntary faculty at any school where I have worked. The verifiable fact that a single Mexican American matriculated in the inaugural class in a CA medical school is a disgrace.

Scholarship may be defined differently by non-academicians but no one can deny that a school essentially in the San Joaquin valley with only one Mexican did something seriously wrong in its recruitment strategy.

 

[PasteMD]

With regard to scholarship, two sets of Ob-gyn Chairs have served who would have barely passed muster for voluntary faculty at any school where I have worked. The verifiable fact that a single Mexican American matriculated in the inaugural class in a CA medical school is a disgrace.

When was the last time you checked those Ob-gyn chairs? Sounds like you're using facts from two years ago. One of their heads now used to be a chief of Sutter District IX California, head of maternity, and currently still part of Davis med. The other was the head at Albany Medical College and is currently the director of medical services at Sutter. See what I mean by "uneducated"?
We don't even know how many Mexican Americans even applied to that. And Albany continues to have <3% of their classes as Mexican American in a city with a lot more. And lastly, elk Grove isn't in the valley. Did I mention pointing to it on a map?

 

[cactusman]

When was the last time you checked those Ob-gyn chairs? Sounds like you're using facts from two years ago. One of their heads now used to be a chief of Sutter District IX California, head of maternity, and currently still part of Davis med. The other was the head at Albany Medical College and is currently the director of medical services at Sutter. See what I mean by "uneducated"?
We don't even know how many Mexican Americans even applied to that. And Albany continues to have <3% of their classes as Mexican American in a city with a lot more. And lastly, elk Grove isn't in the valley. Did I mention pointing to it on a map?

Elk Grove has about twice as many Hispanic or Latino people as Albany (9% vs. 18%). Albany isn't doing well at recruiting UiM students (as gyngyn pointed out, it's largely about recruiting, not what % of UiM students they accept), but their student body seems to better represent the local community (at least compared to CNU's first class).

You seem to be defending against several flaws by pointing to schools which share a single one of those flaws; it is worse when they are all compounded. And then you're conceding the loans part, which I think has been everyone's biggest concern the entire time.

Edit: Some other stats - Elk Grove is 11% African-American but CNU's Class of 2020 is only 1% AA (http://medicine.cnsu.edu/shareddocs/DemographicData2020.pdf0). Note that CNU claims it was founded with the goal of improving the physician shortage in California, and yet it has apparently not tried to get a diverse student body similar to the state population.

 

[gyngyn]

When was the last time you checked those Ob-gyn chairs? Sounds like you're using facts from two years ago. One of their heads now used to be a chief of Sutter District IX California, head of maternity, and currently still part of Davis med. The other was the head at Albany Medical College and is currently the director of medical services at Sutter. See what I mean by "uneducated"?
We don't even know how many Mexican Americans even applied to that. And Albany continues to have <3% of their classes as Mexican American in a city with a lot more. And lastly, elk Grove isn't in the valley. Did I mention pointing to it on a map?

Yes, I know they finally got an MFM, right before the LCME would have dinged them good. In other words, at the last possible moment and under duress.

It was you who pointed out the location of Elk Grove, was it not? Is there a medical school closer to the SJV than Elk Grove?

 

[drplzz]

I'm sorry, but those are some one of the dumbest and outdated complaints I've ever seen. I'm usually a lurker and have no real fight in this (other than 1 or 2 old classmates who now go here), but there is sooo many things wrong with that list.

This class ended up with twice as many men as women. If their mission precludes thoughtful evaluation of candidates, one
Oh no, their inaugural class has ~40/20 ratio instead of a perfect 50/50! Sorry that they accepted the most qualified students to represent the inaugural class. Not to mention the ratio is a lot better for the class of 2020 and 2021...

A review of faculty credentials reveals a significant lack of scholarship.
One of those "outdated complaints" without actually fact-checking. Check again. Looking at their list, multiple doctors graduating from Harvard Med, USC, UCLA, UCSD. PhDs graduating from Yale, UCLA, etc. Heck, their Anatomy Course Director is the director at UCSF, but I guess that school is pretty shady too?

In a state that is at least 30% Mexican American, they only had a single representative from this group.
This really gets my jimmies rustled. There is no doubt CNU is a new school that warrants some skepticism. But to criticize them for this? What are they supposed to do, accept a number of Latinos or African Americans with <20 MCAT scores just to appeal to SDN? Not to mention that number again is higher for 2020. Any under-represented students with adequate stats and no red flags can get into a much better CA school.
Check out how many people identify as Hispanic in Touro's entire 2016-2017 university (1000+ people). Only 2%. Because why would they go there when they could get into a top-notch MD program? Where's that criticism?

Because of these and other points too numerous to mention, the PD's I know are reluctant to consider these graduates in the same light as other applicants at the moment.
BS. I'm a new resident who did plenty of away rotations and visits in the Sacramento area (Sutters and Kaisers in Sacramento, Roseville, Napa, etc). The doctors and PDs I've talked to have no critiques of these students and have actually volunteered their time to be preceptors.

Did you make an account jus to defend CNU? Why the fierce defense, anyway?


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[mwsapphire]

Did you make an account jus to defend CNU? Why the fierce defense, anyway?


Sent from my iPad using SDN mobile

I thought that was a joke and I checked and it seems like they did!!! They have 17 posts all about CNU In this thread!



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[PasteMD]

Yes, I know they finally got an MFM, right before the LCME would have dinged them good. In other words, at the last possible moment.
It was you who pointed out the location of Elk Grove, was it not? Is there a medical school closer to the SJV than Elk Grove?

Good job conveniently not mentioning that until now. How dare they improve!
Vallejo and San Francisco to name a couple.
Whatever though, I'm going to take the gnome approach. It's obviously pretty futile arguing against cherry-picking stats and arguments.

Did you make an account jus to defend CNU? Why the fierce defense, anyway?


Sent from my iPad using SDN mobile

Uh I kinda mentioned that in my very first post. Fake arguments is just a pet peeve. Won't hear from me again though; have better things to do than argue with someone with clearly blind or unresearched agendas.

 

[Toutie]

Won't hear from me again though; have better things to do than argue with someone with clearly blind or unresearched agendas.

Bye. On the way out, don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Good job conveniently not mentioning that until now. How dare they improve!
Vallejo and San Francisco to name a couple.
Whatever though, I'm going to take the gnome approach. It's obviously pretty futile arguing against cherry-picking stats and arguments.


Uh I kinda mentioned that in my very first post. Fake arguments is just a pet peeve. Won't hear from me again though; have better things to do than argue with someone with clearly blind or unresearched agendas.

 

[pstrick]

They still use PayPal for secondaries as of last year(2016)--the only school I've seen do that of all the MD/DO schools. Kinda weird.

I know that ARCOM (also a new school) and ATSU-KCOM both used paypal for secondary fees.

ARCOM actually required us to pay with paypal, and then we pasted the transaction receipt number into a box on the secondary.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I know that ARCOM (also a new school) and ATSU-KCOM both used paypal for secondary fees.

ARCOM actually required us to pay with paypal, and then we pasted the transaction receipt number into a box on the secondary.

That's super awkward.

 

[Frosty808]

Well...a possible reason for that circles back to the lack of Federal Loans and payback mechanisms. It's entirely possible many low income Hispanics would not qualify for the private loans required by CNU.

I got in for the post bacc but ......didn't get the necessary credit score to be approved student loans.

Which is fine...I need to really budget now that I applied over and over to Sallie Mae and other private loan vendors just to go to their post bacc.

Baaaaaah I got denied to UC's Consortium and UC Berekely extension is a SUPER far drive (I lived in Roseville).

 

[gyngyn]

I got in for the post bacc but ......didn't get the necessary credit score to be approved student loans.

Which is fine...I need to really budget now that I applied over and over to Sallie Mae and other private loan vendors just to go to their post bacc.

Baaaaaah I got denied to UC's Consortium and UC Berekely extension is a SUPER far drive (I lived in Roseville).

If you are the lovely person in the avatar, may I suggest that you protect your anonymity?

 

[baseplay23]

Few thoughts:

Medicine is a highly structured field. Consistency is key and most everyone is trained to work in the structured environment because that is how things are done. You become good at what you do and you do it over and over again at a higher skill level (similar to most professions). And for good reason. Keep in mind this culture is embedded in the minds of health professionals and scientists.

New schools and programs warrant skepticism of course. Especially, if they are not set up exactly in the highly structured format that the established academic institutions possess. Also, there is certain level of prestige and elitism that people in the medical community like to be associated with. I know few grads who chose to work at an academic hospital post residency at a lower pay to be in a more challenging and prestigious environment. Most people expressing their opinions compare the school to the benchmarks they know, especially in California. Fair enough.

The school being located in California attracts extra criticism because California is such a desirable and a competitive location with state of the art academic institutions. The for-profit status doesn't help CNU. It is perceived more negatively but setting up a non-profit is such a hassle that unless you already have a non-profit parent organization it would be improbable for anyone to establish a brand new non profit medical school not associated with any parent non-profit organization. The more a school deviates from the structured format the more the skepticism. When the first For-Profit hospitals were opening there was a lot of criticism and skepticism, today over 20% of hospitals in the US are for profit - Pie Charts 2017.

Federal loan unavailability is undesirable of course, everyone is in agreement there. I think one of the things that's hurting CNU is the transparency and the "whys" with general public. Because they are not disclosed publicly everyone fills the gap with worst case scenarios and myths. That's human nature.

If I were a betting man my guess would be that the CNU students will enjoy the same success as physicians as other schools. High GPA and MCAT don't make good doctors. Self motivation, hard work and persistence does and I truly believe that in a population of roughly 100 students you will get a similar distribution for vast majority of schools - some will be excellent physicians and some will be below average but most will be just fine.

At the end of the day take everyone's feedback as opinions. There is always a risk factors associated with anything new. Most people don't like takings risks, especially in the highly structured professions and that's the opinions you will hear more.

 

[Pusheen]

Compare CNU to UCR, the other recently opened school in CA in a similar location.

UCR heavily recruited minority and disadvantaged students from the disadvantaged area it serves, provided generous scholarships and full rides to at least half of the incoming students from the first day they opened until now, very slowly, incrementally increased the class from 50 to 55 to 60 students every year to ensure adequate resources, recruited excellent faculty from all over CA, ect, ect, ect.

In comparison, CNU's attempt to 'serve' inland CA is a complete joke.

 

[baseplay23]

Compare CNU to UCR, the other recently opened school in CA in a similar location.

UCR heavily recruited minority and disadvantaged students from the disadvantaged area it serves, provided generous scholarships and full rides to at least half of the incoming students from the first day they opened until now, very slowly, incrementally increased the class from 50 to 55 to 60 students every year to ensure adequate resources, recruited excellent faculty from all over CA, ect, ect, ect.

In comparison, CNU's attempt to 'serve' inland CA is a complete joke.

Right. UCR medical school is associated with the UC system, their ability to attract talent and establish academic administrative functions should be better. The tax money from the state surely helps the scholarships and rides.

I'm not intimately familiar with the diversity selection process at CNU. I'm sure they can use improvements and every class profile provides a data point to analyze and learn.

 

[gyngyn]

I'm not intimately familiar with the diversity selection process at CNU. I'm sure they can use improvements and every class profile provides a data point to analyze and learn.

With only one African-American in the first year class there is plenty of room for improvement.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

With only one African-American in the first year class there is plenty of room for improvement.

That's a travesty.

 

[BombsAway]

Maybe its all the Kellyanne Conway on TV these days, but it seems like people are really getting good at the spin game. Some of that poster's pivots were pretty impressive.

Though I must admit, it lost its novelty in the same way watching a 5 year old repeatedly press the spin move on Madden loses its novelty. There are other moves jimmy, give them a shot.

 

[baseplay23]

With only one African-American in the first year class there is plenty of room for improvement.

I agree that CNU has plenty of room from improvement from the administrative perspective in general. I also agree that For-Profit institutions may face more challenges because investors require return on their investment and thus for-profits need to run more efficient in general. After all, "wasting" taxpayer dollars is different than "wasting" investor dollars. However, jumping to conclusions that they don't select minorities for those reasons or that it's because minorities won't get approved for private loans is rather idiotic.

Also don't fool yourself that for profit and non-profit somehow operate totally differently. Medicine was maybe the last area that profits weren't being scrutinized as much but this has rapidly changed and there is really no reverting back. Profit is an ever growing component of all non-profit institutions. I'd like to see examples of non-profits that truly don't generate profit and are set up in such ways that are self sustainable. Healthcare is the biggest mess for this country and it's largely due to the finances. Student loan situation is right behind it in an equally bad shape.

Minority education/representation is a whole separate issue. The best way to address demographics is to prepare a pipeline of qualified candidates. Unfortunately if you live in low income communities - as most minorities are born into - you don't receive the same type of opportunities as higher income communities. That's a flaw in education/society in general.

 

[AttemptingScholar]

I agree that CNU has plenty of room from improvement from the administrative perspective in general. I also agree that For-Profit institutions may face more challenges because investors require return on their investment and thus for-profits need to run more efficient in general. After all, "wasting" taxpayer dollars is different than "wasting" investor dollars. However, jumping to conclusions that they don't select minorities for those reasons or that it's because minorities won't get approved for private loans is rather idiotic.

Also don't fool yourself that for profit and non-profit somehow operate totally differently. Medicine was maybe the last area that profits weren't being scrutinized as much but this has rapidly changed and there is really no reverting back. Profit is an ever growing component of all non-profit institutions. I'd like to see examples of non-profits that truly don't generate profit and are set up in such ways that are self sustainable. Healthcare is the biggest mess for this country and it's largely due to the finances. Student loan situation is right behind it in an equally bad shape.

Minority education/representation is a whole separate issue. The best way to address demographics is to prepare a pipeline of qualified candidates. Unfortunately if you live in low income communities - as most minorities are born into - you don't receive the same type of opportunities as higher income communities. That's a flaw in education/society in general.

Not really sure what your point is. You seem to be arguing that outside minority opportunities are the biggest reason they are underrepresented, but this certainly doesn't stop basically every other med school from having qualified minority candidates. I'm not arguing that URMs often have more roadblocks, but you seem to be agreeing with that and then saying CNU has no obligation to recruit? Because they are for-profit?

 

[Toutie]

[

Minority education/representation is a whole separate issue. The best way to address demographics is to prepare a pipeline of qualified candidates. Unfortunately if you live in low income communities - as most minorities are born into - you don't receive the same type of opportunities as higher income communities. That's a flaw in education/society in general.

And that is EXACTLY why other schools go out of their way to recruit UiM candidates. Something CNU did not do....and probably they could not do considering they chose not to offer federal loans.

 

[Pusheen]

Right. UCR medical school is associated with the UC system, their ability to attract talent and establish academic administrative functions should be better. The tax money from the state surely helps the scholarships and rides.

Not sure how this changes anything. Standards are standards, regardless of where the school is coming from.

Point is, CNU needs to step up their game to get on the same playing field as other new MD schools that are well respected. So far they haven't been doing a great job of that and people have pointed out many examples where they have voluntarily hurt their own students.

It's not that they can't step it up due to lack of resources or prestige or whatever else your argument is, it's that they don't want to and/or have other priorities.

 

[LoveBeingHuman:)]

@gyngyn I'm a bit confused. Is CNU trying to deprive its students of financial resources in order to protect the interests of its own investors? If so, that is unethical on very many levels.

 

[baseplay23]

Not really sure what your point is. You seem to be arguing that outside minority opportunities are the biggest reason they are underrepresented, but this certainly doesn't stop basically every other med school from having qualified minority candidates. I'm not arguing that URMs often have more roadblocks, but you seem to be agreeing with that and then saying CNU has no obligation to recruit? Because they are for-profit?

Incorrect. My argument there is that we need to do better job of extending those opportunities from early on and increase the number of qualified candidates. I think all med schools should do their best to establish a diverse and a representative student body but ultimately I feel that the root cause of the issue needs to be addressed in the communities themselves and as early as possible. As a minority, I don't want to be selected based on hitting an internal number to ensure "diversity". I'd much rather like the system to set me up for success from the get go so that it naturally works itself out. Until then, med schools and other schools can and should continue the band-aid system of evaluating and adjusting the numbers to hit the quota but don't let that fool anyone that minorities are getting the same chances or opportunities. Usually those systems only help the very small percentage of extremely gifted students anyways. I don't have a solution for the bigger problem but we shouldn't lose sight of it either.

 

[baseplay23]

[

And that is EXACTLY why other schools go out of their way to recruit UiM candidates. Something CNU did not do....and probably they could not do considering they chose not to offer federal loans.

The federal loans situations I don't understand. I do think they should obtain it for both their med school and pharmacy OR provide a public statement explaining they aren't besides choosing not to participate. Who knows what the Trump administration will do with the student loans but I do agree the federal loan criticism is completely warranted because the explanation is not sufficient.

I'm not so sure about connecting the federal loans to all the other explanations/conclusions though.

 

[Goro]

I agree with you, but this nothing to do with this thread.

Incorrect. My argument there is that we need to do better job of extending those opportunities from early on and increase the number of qualified candidates. I think all med schools should do their best to establish a diverse and a representative student body but ultimately I feel that the root cause of the issue needs to be addressed in the communities themselves and as early as possible. As a minority, I don't want to be selected based on hitting an internal number to ensure "diversity". I'd much rather like the system to set me up for success from the get go so that it naturally works itself out. Until then, med schools and other schools can and should continue the band-aid system of evaluating and adjusting the numbers to hit the quota but don't let that fool anyone that minorities are getting the same chances or opportunities. Usually those systems only help the very small percentage of extremely gifted students anyways. I don't have a solution for the bigger problem but we shouldn't lose sight of it either.

 

[bananafish94]

Mildly related to the topic at hand, the following JAMA article gives a fairly comprehensive overview of for-profit tertiary education in the United States. Long story short, there was a 1996 court case (United States v. American Bar Association) which ruled that the American Bar Association couldn't prohibit a law school from accreditation just because it's for-profit. Since then, the LCME continuously softened its stance on for-profit schools since then, offering provisional accreditation to Rocky Vista in 2007, then eliminating their preference for not-for-profit schools in 2013 before offering preliminary accreditation to Ponce, CNU, and Burrell.

The Emergence of For-Profit Medical Schools

My own opinion is that an entity designed to generate a profit will be motivated to find a way to make their product as cheap as possible while charging as much as possible. In other words, if there's a way for them to make it cheaper at the expense of the quality of education, they will do it. And I don't think that's a good model for a medical school.

 

[LutGholein]

Mildly related to the topic at hand, the following JAMA article gives a fairly comprehensive overview of for-profit tertiary education in the United States. Long story short, there was a 1996 court case (United States v. American Bar Association) which ruled that the American Bar Association couldn't prohibit a law school from accreditation just because it's for-profit. Since then, the LCME continuously softened its stance on for-profit schools since then, offering provisional accreditation to Rocky Vista in 2007, then eliminating their preference for not-for-profit schools in 2013 before offering preliminary accreditation to Ponce, CNU, and Burrell.

The Emergence of For-Profit Medical Schools

My own opinion is that an entity designed to generate a profit will be motivated to find a way to make their product as cheap as possible while charging as much as possible. In other words, if there's a way for them to make it cheaper at the expense of the quality of education, they will do it. And I don't think that's a good model for a medical school.

COCA offered provisional accreditation to RVU-- but RVU has proven itself throughout the years in more ways than one. What just blew my mind was that Ponce is a for-profit medical school!?! I had to double check that-- I guess CNU is the first LCME for-profit med school in the continental U.S-- but Ponce must be the first for-profit LCME school on U.S territory. Man that is interesting!

 

[baseplay23]

I agree with you, but this nothing to do with this thread.

Sure it does... if CNU recruits minorities and MCAT and GPA numbers drop significantly then the critics will be quick to jump and say how anyone can just get in and it's just like a Caribbean school. I don't know if I've ever seen people applaud Caribbean schools for the diversity they foster

I just want people doing their "research" on here to understand that not everything is so black and white. People are critical in nature and just selectively focus on the negatives to further their opinions. There are 256 shades of grey between black and white. And from my limited observations, some of the brightest academic minds actually end up "wasting" their talents because they never learn how to navigate and thrive in the grey space.

Love it or hate it but both healthcare and education are one of the top big businesses and employers. Many of the same people who bash for-profit education freak out over the potential of having their future salaries decreased. The world may be a better place if we all operated like non-profit humans and donated the income we don't really need to make it a better place but sadly that's not who we are.

 

[Goro]

Sure it does... if CNU recruits minorities and MCAT and GPA numbers drop significantly then the critics will be quick to jump and say how anyone can just get in and it's just like a Caribbean school. I don't know if I've ever seen people applaud Caribbean schools for the diversity they foster

I just want people doing their "research" on here to understand that not everything is so black and white. People are critical in nature and just selectively focus on the negatives to further their opinions. There are 256 shades of grey between black and white. And from my limited observations, some of the brightest academic minds actually end up "wasting" their talents because they never learn how to navigate and thrive in the grey space.

Love it or hate it but both healthcare and education are one of the top big businesses and employers. Many of the same people who bash for-profit education freak out over the potential of having their future salaries decreased. The world may be a better place if we all operated like non-profit humans and donated the income we don't really need to make it a better place but sadly that's not who we are.

Except adding a few more URM students so that the Class matches the demographics of the state of CA doesn't necessarily mean that school stats will fall. Only hyperacheivers who see everything as stats and nothing else think like this.

There's a lot of bright pre-meds in CA, they just have to go elsewhere for med school.

For our discussion, on the failings of CNU, the only people who will be bitching about salaries being cut will be the investors, whose interests are obviously more important than their students.

 

[Goro]

Mildly related to the topic at hand, the following JAMA article gives a fairly comprehensive overview of for-profit tertiary education in the United States. Long story short, there was a 1996 court case (United States v. American Bar Association) which ruled that the American Bar Association couldn't prohibit a law school from accreditation just because it's for-profit. Since then, the LCME continuously softened its stance on for-profit schools since then, offering provisional accreditation to Rocky Vista in 2007, then eliminating their preference for not-for-profit schools in 2013 before offering preliminary accreditation to Ponce, CNU, and Burrell.

The Emergence of For-Profit Medical Schools

My own opinion is that an entity designed to generate a profit will be motivated to find a way to make their product as cheap as possible while charging as much as possible. In other words, if there's a way for them to make it cheaper at the expense of the quality of education, they will do it. And I don't think that's a good model for a medical school.

For accuracy's sake, the LCME did NOT accredit RVU...COCA did. Ditto for BCOM.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Mildly related to the topic at hand, the following JAMA article gives a fairly comprehensive overview of for-profit tertiary education in the United States. Long story short, there was a 1996 court case (United States v. American Bar Association) which ruled that the American Bar Association couldn't prohibit a law school from accreditation just because it's for-profit. Since then, the LCME continuously softened its stance on for-profit schools since then, offering provisional accreditation to Rocky Vista in 2007, then eliminating their preference for not-for-profit schools in 2013 before offering preliminary accreditation to Ponce, CNU, and Burrell.

The Emergence of For-Profit Medical Schools

My own opinion is that an entity designed to generate a profit will be motivated to find a way to make their product as cheap as possible while charging as much as possible. In other words, if there's a way for them to make it cheaper at the expense of the quality of education, they will do it. And I don't think that's a good model for a medical school.

As has been said, it wasn't the LCME that accredited RVU and BCOM. But besides that, RVU has shown that for profit status alone does not doom a medical school to being nothing more than a money-making machine.

 

[bananafish94]

As has been said, it wasn't the LCME that accredited RVU and BCOM. But besides that, RVU has shown that for profit status alone does not doom a medical school to being nothing more than a money-making machine.

Be that as it may, it is still a money-making machine. As you said, that doesn't mean that it necessarily won't offer a fine education, as I'm sure RVU does. But at the end of the day, their investors come first, not the students. That makes me uncomfortable. Plus, for-profit institutions have a fairly sordid history in this country.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Be that as it may, it is still a money-making machine. As you said, that doesn't mean that it necessarily won't offer a fine education, as I'm sure RVU does. But at the end of the day, their investors come first, not the students. That makes me uncomfortable. Plus, for-profit institutions have a fairly sordid history in this country.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

Riiiiight, but actual students at RVU on this forum have said that they feel like they are prioritized and well taken care of. Clearly while investors are looking for returns, that doesn't mean they can't put students and medical education up there with earning money.

Clearly it is possible, but CNU chooses not to do that.

 

[Med Ed]

Mildly related to the topic at hand, the following JAMA article gives a fairly comprehensive overview of for-profit tertiary education in the United States. Long story short, there was a 1996 court case (United States v. American Bar Association) which ruled that the American Bar Association couldn't prohibit a law school from accreditation just because it's for-profit. Since then, the LCME continuously softened its stance on for-profit schools since then,

I don't know if "softened its stance" is quite the right way to put it. The LCME basically realized that if they tried to explicitly bar for-profit schools they would ultimately lose in court. So they have altered their strategy to undercut future for-profit MD schools.

It may be tempting to invoke RVU in this thread, but it's a rather apples-to-oranges comparison because COCA already permits practices that are very much at home in for-profit settings. A school can achieve accreditation with a large class, lecture-heavy curriculum (meaning relatively few faculty), and a high percentage of annual revenue derived from tuition, among other things. I'm not saying all DO schools fit that mold, but some certainly do. Had CNU decided to open an osteopathic school it would likely have come to fruition sooner and be operating in the black.

 

[GnomeBeGone]

The LCME basically realized that if they tried to explicitly bar for-profit schools they would ultimately lose in court. So they have altered their strategy to undercut future for-profit MD schools.

Yes, they've gotten rather creative on that front. ( @Goro , this is the lengthy part I mentioned I'd get to later in another thread.)

The timelines below are ~approximate~ since this is largely derived from me chatting up one of their investors as an M1.

So as some of you may know, CNU hired all the same key people who started Texas Tech's El Paso med school to start theirs (and many of those same faculty have gone on to boot other medical schools that SDN hasn't batted an eyelash at. Go figure....). CNU invested in buildings and manpower and those people did the same things that that did at Texas Tech to prepare for opening a new MD school. LCME comes back and says "hmm, looks risky. Probably doomed to fail; we'll let you open if you raise 50 million in operating overhead."

The underlying assumption being that the Pharmacy school wouldn't be able to cobble together that kind of $$$$$ in time. They did. CNU Comes back and then LCME sits on the application for a year bleeding them dry (the building, staff, etc. were all hired and ready). CNU gets testy and then they finally come back and say, "Make it 75 million and then you can open." CNU spends the next 6 months doing a final push to raise the money. Breathless and with a heavy piggy bank, CNU runs back to LCME and says it's ready. LCME continues stalling.

After waiting long enough to not appear unreasonable, CNU comes back and says, "Look, we've done everything you've asked, if you don't rule on our application we're going to take you to court over this." - Anyone with half a brain could figure out that if you go to a court and say, "Hey judge, check it out--- we hired all the same people to start a med school that opened another one successfully, but when they did the exact same thing here, it wasn't good enough." That's a reprimand form the court and economic+punitive damages waiting to happen. - So, shortly thereafter, CNU gets its preliminary accreditation.

The next part of this story is not news to SDN: CNU, not wanting to wait any longer (and not wanting to wait for LCME to find a way to change its mind), did a lightning round with 2019's applications and matriculated 60 from a pool of ~680 applications. You can quibble about how neat or not the demographics came out from that, but when you're draining investor dollars to the tune of what ... ? ... ~8 mil per year (my guesstimate) if there are no classes enrolled?

At a certain point I think you're living in a (tax-payer funded) fantasy world if you think the perfect distribution of skin tones and genitals is more important than matriculating a class that you know can take a beating and sail the choppy waters of inaugurating a program. Whether or not you think that makes CNU the Satan-incarnate of the medical world is on you. I personally don't think they were being particularly unreasonable given the arbitrary treatment leading up to it. I'm not saying everything was pretty as a result of that decision, but it was pragmatic. Cash flow issues are the top reason why start-ups fail after lack of market need; there are only so many times you can beg investors for more money if you don't have results in hand. In fact, just seeing the exponential improvement in 2020's educational experience (and even the difference between how polished classes in 2019's M1 vs. 2019's M2 year were) tells me that yes, had they waited a year, things probably would have been smoother. Would I make a different decision knowing what I do now? Absolutely not. I love this band of misfits and can't imagine my life having turned out any other way.

 

[GnomeBeGone]

Over the past couple of years I have had interactions, both directly and indirectly, with some folks who have carnal knowledge of Northstate. It's actually a somewhat pitiable situation. The investors who poured money in at the beginning, perhaps expecting solid returns in perpetuity, seem to have made a grave financial miscalculation. It appears that starting and running an allopathic medical school is more expensive than anticipated (who knew?), and they can only cut so many corners before they risk their accreditation. It wouldn't surprise me one bit to read that the place has simply folded.

Actually, our WASC accreditation report just came out as well and I believe you're quite mistaken. By accreditation standards I think you could call their review glowing.
California Northstate University as an institution was renewed for the full 8 year accreditation term and it specifically states that CNU is a financially healthy institution with enough cash and equivalents to retire 96% of its long-term debt and that the COM is projected to have a positive net income by the 2018 calendar year. This review is consistent with my observation that the faculty in charge of hiring have been on a jubilant and extravagant hiring spree since the start of my M2 year. I have been highly impressed by the caliber and experience of our new hires. ( @aim-agm , @leela13 in case you want some light reading during your clerkships)

"
Commendations

The Commission commends California Northstate University in particular for the following:

1. A strong sense of institutional identity and a clearly articulated mission shared by faculty, staff, and students;
   
   
2. Dedication to and engagement with the community outside of the university;
   
   
3. A student-centered approach to learning and a commitment to the implementation of innovative educational practices;
   
   
4. A thoughtful and realistic approach to expanding the current infrastructure to provide increased support for students;
   
   
5. The positive engagement of the Board of Trustees with evidence-based decision-making and accreditation processes.

Recommendations

The Commission identifies the following issues for further development:

1. CNU graduate culture, with special attention and focus on supporting faculty as they conduct research, publish in peer reviewed journals, present at national and regional conferences, and seek grant funding (CFR 2.8, 2.9, 3.4, 3.5);
   
   
2. Recruitment and retention of faculty, staff, and administrators (CFR 3.1, 3.3, 4.6);
   
   
3. Critically examine organizational structures including roles, responsibilities, reporting structures, and communication expectations, to ensure that CNU continues to achieve its mission. (CFR 3.7);
   
   
4. Efforts to provide evidence of student learning, the effective use of program reviews as a basis for decisions regarding increasing educational effectiveness, and clear strategies for communicating student achievement in terms of both graduation rates and levels of student learning (CFR 2.7).

"

Points I appreciated that were stated outside the main accreditation letter:

- CNU’s Institutional Report was well written and informative. The Team appreciates how forthcoming CNU was in acknowledging both strengths and weaknesses identified during their self-study process.
- The site team experienced a culture of assessment and improvement that was evident in all interactions with staff and faculty.
- CNU has institutional research capacity that seems appropriate for its size.


LCME actions might be private, but the WASC report seems to indicate that we are not far off base in most areas and were justified in being granted an extension without probation by LCME. I know Northstate has your undying cynicism, but they are in fact making earnest effort and investment as I have stated many times.

Oh, and instead of being cryptic, for once, I'll just tell you that for #4 (among several other things) is referring to the fact that: // EDIT: Never-mind. It's better as a surprise. // And that (among other things), for #2, CNU's Deans of Student Affairs & Admissions are already involved in making a pipeline program to recruit local students of social and economic minorities. (And it happened before this thread threw a fit about it! Scandal alert!!)

I have heard one fairly well-sourced rumor that Kaiser actually offered to buy Northstate's medical school but was turned down. Would love to know more details, if true.

Well that narrows it down. Send my warm regards. lol (I've been wondering when this rumor would hit the public.)
To answer your question: That statement is not true, but not entirely false. Kaiser would be the prospective buyer. My understanding is that the rest is untrue. It's a very complicated food chain with lots of things in play. Suffice to say that with the kind of money Kaiser has, IMO it's kind of irrelevant whether or not CNU's admins say Yes or No, the board of Trustees/investors or w/e it's called can override. Both parties have more to gain than you realize though. I think they'll play nice if everything comes into alignment.

What just blew my mind was that Ponce is a for-profit medical school!?! I had to double check that-- I guess CNU is the first LCME for-profit med school in the continental U.S-- but Ponce must be the first for-profit LCME school on U.S territory. Man that is interesting!

hahaha. Right?! I've been wondering for months why nobody else has pointed this out!