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Do people on SDN realize the outside perception of pre-meds/doctors

Discussion in 'Pre-Medical Allopathic [ MD ]' started by pathologicalhopeful, 09.26.14.

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  1. pathologicalhopeful

    pathologicalhopeful

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    Good afternoon,
    I am an URM female.
    I graduated from an Ivy League School recently, currently I am attending getting an MS in EE (focus Signals and Systems)
    I really do enjoy engineering but I prefer a career where I can directly assist people.
    In high school the easiest subjects for me were biology and history, I retain information very well, so I majored in physics/engineering in undergrad to gain a new skill set.

    Last year around this week actually I attended UPenn's hackathon that was geared to more global causes. My partners and I made a global health app and I was very happy, I also really liked the area. And ever since then I have it in my mind I really want to go to a great medical school like that one so I am taking the necessary steps to get there. However, coming on this forum has conjured both negative and positive feelings.

    The reason I did not major in biology was because I did not like the atmosphere of my first biology class; people were always stressed (making sure to project it on everyone) and irritating. My friend who is applying for med school and has stellar stats (>4.0 GPA in a hard science, 40+ MCAT) says the same thing of why he didn't major in any bio-related field.

    I've talked to various people just to get an opinion, and most people do not like their doctors or dentists, and these are not in areas with terrible health or dental care facilities--great actually (LA, NY, SF). I talked to my parent, who taught at CUMC, and they said the admissions committees are tired of seeing the same people with good stats who only majored in bio/chem all their time in school because that's all they know and they are very limited. Oddly enough, a lot of music majors are accepted because they receive higher scores (music is very similar to math and very logical--so they most likely outscore on the physics section and I would imagine the verbal section also). I was an engineering major and I had friends across the spectrum and there is an unspoken (or spoken) consensus that pre-meds are arrogant and obsessed with prestige--it came up occasionally (not often) in discussion. Engineers are also very arrogant, but it's because they are bitter about their self-imposed lack of social interaction and engineers have the most credits to complete. Also pre-meds whine all the time about OChem. So I took OChem, I did want to see what the fuss was all about-- it wasn't nearly as crazy as everyone made it out to be--Digital Signal Processing is much much harder and no one complained. Actually, all my upper division engineering courses were much harder but people were happy to be there. Engineers also don't care that much to compare GPAs. If someone gets a job at Apple and someone doesn't get the job they think about why their interview might not have gone well and how they can improve NOT because "oh he got it because has family connections/is a URM." They focus on how THEY can improve to get what they want, NOT the perceived short comings of others.

    I bluntly said to my parent, "well also a lot of premeds are in it for the money and the prestige--not to help their patients--getting a 42 MCAT and having a 3.9 GPA doesn't make you a better dermatologist, I'd rather have the 3.5 and 35 MCAT who had skin problems all their life so they can relate." They responded "yes, but they don't understand that" my other parent is worse than an Asian parent (and that's putting it nicely) so I understand the pressure some ORMs face. But I've talked to a lot of my Asian friends who want to be doctors and when you get down to the bottom of it most of them are in it for the prestige, money, and to make their parents happy. I have lived life long enough to realize fulfilling those needs doesn't bring true happiness. I am new here, so when I hear ORMs complaining that the middle-class Hispanic or black person with lower stats got in and they didn't and "it's not fair." The Hispanic population is increasing, they want Hispanic doctors and someone to speak Spanish, and the black population does not want to be treated by pretentious white and Asian doctors who think they're better (actually same with Hispanics).

    So I am asking all of you: haven't you had professors that weren't good teachers? They attended Ivy Leagues, MIT Stanford but they aren't good teachers. They have PhD s in their field, topnotch research but they can honest to God not teach? (Another blunt blow: getting a PhD in a pure science or any STEM related IS more difficult than med school) Why doesn't that same logic you think apply to doctors? There are a lot of people who hate the coldness of their doctors and just do not wish to visit doctors period. Are doctors and future doctors aware of this, or with their salary, do they just not care? Do some of you pre-med hopefuls realize your patients probably won't like you? Maybe you all think you'll be as good as House and that's cool..but people are seeking more from their doctors.

    Also, for the people saying it doesn't make sense for URMs to get in based on color because they will most likely not return to their communities once they have the money. Pleas realize that black and Hispanic culture is much different than Asian culture. If you're a poor white person or black/Hispanic your strength is realizing where you come from and needing to give back to that community, also when you forget where you come from, you get called out. I did economic case studies on China and of course I admire the Asian dedication to excellence in academics but the materialism that exists is despicable, it makes Americans look much less superficial and consumed in comparison. When you die, you can't take that stuff with you. Anyways, I am a mid-upper class URM and I would go to predominantly black and Hispanic communities for service and so would many other URMs I've talked to.

    I also never looked into the difference between an MD and DO until recently, and people's disparaging comments about DOs are disgusting.

    *Obviously these are generalizations, I am just wondering if anyone has thought of the patient wants or how doctors and pre-med students are viewed by those not in the field*
     
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  3. SkipJunior

    SkipJunior I'm Your Butler Account on Hold

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    okay...so why are you so upset about it? Here's a pro-tip, people will say and do things you don't like, deal with it by ignoring them...not by whining about them. No one likes whiners. I used to whine and complain a lot too until I realized that.

    As for people being upset about URMs receiving preferential treatment, think of it this way. An Asian (Indian,Chinese etc) applicant with a 27 MCAT 3.3 GPA cookie cutter ECs may receive 0 acceptances to any medical school but a black applicant with the exact same ECs and stats will receive multiple acceptance offers. Is that fair? I agree that there is a need to increase the number of black and hispanic physicians but I'm not sure the method we use now is the best to achieve that goal.
     
    Last edited: 09.26.14
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  4. Omppu27

    Omppu27 El Tiburon 5+ Year Member

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    Can we get a tl;dr, please?
     
  5. samsunimomo

    samsunimomo SDN Gold Donor Gold Donor 5+ Year Member

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    Racism against Asians is still racism.
     
  6. sundancing

    sundancing 2+ Year Member

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    I see a lot of generalizations here. Not every premed falls into the stereotype you have described.

    If you want to be a doctor, you should ignore any preconceived notions about the profession or the people who want to go into it. Just be the best premed YOU can be and live up to your own standards for yourself. Don't worry about what others think.
     
  7. Afford

    Afford

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    Last edited: 09.26.14
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  8. totu22

    totu22

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    It appears to me that you are making wide spread negative generalizations of premeds in an attempt to cover up the true meaning of your post, which is to seek affirmation that being a non-bio major URM should get you a leg up in the admissions game.
     
  9. question25

    question25

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    Your comments about asians are disturbing. To answer your question though, yes, people have thought of the patient wants or how doctors and pre-med students are viewed by those not in the field.
     
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  10. HoboCommander

    HoboCommander 7+ Year Member

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    Believe me, the personalities in med school are not nearly as bad as the engineers. Those people are way more arrogant and miserable, negative, awkward. Also, asians tend to be much more modest, especially in medicine, there's rarely the kind of arrogance you see with a lot of doctors.
     
  11. SnakeOilForSale

    SnakeOilForSale Everyday I'm hustlin 2+ Year Member

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    Don't really understand why you're ****ting on bio and chem majors by saying they're limited because they only focus on that one topic -- isn't that what a major is? What else do you know besides engineering? This post has some sort of inferiority complex with being a nonbio major and thinking you're better because of it, but just know that med schools couldn't care less about your major, only how well you performed in it.
     
  12. totu22

    totu22

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    Congrats on not struggling with orgo though, that's really impressive.
     
  13. HoboCommander

    HoboCommander 7+ Year Member

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    As an asian myself, I agree that for most asians, medicine is about all the money, prestige, and parents. They take bio majors (not me, but other asians) and have cookie cutter med school apps. This is annoying. But whatever their reasons for medicine are, you will also find over and over again that a lot of asians work really, really hard. I've met Indian women who just study 16 hours a day in a small cold room, scoring 260s on their USMLE. They never date or marry, and dedicate their lives to medicine and nothing but medicine. Does it matter what their reasons for entering medicine were?
     
  14. freemontie

    freemontie Banned Banned

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    I'll summarize for readers who don't have time for OP's long rant:

    -I'm URM and a tech expert who went to Ivy League schools - and don't forget UPenn Hack-a-ton
    -but pre-meds are money/prestige obsessed
    -they bitch too much and O-Chem was easy for me
    -URMs should get a leg up in admissions and nobody should criticize it (my comment: fine, but good luck trying to stop criticisms)
    -some slights against asian students/culture
    -" I have it in my mind I really want to go to a great medical school like that one" (my comment: I assume you mean Penn's med school?)

    ....oohhhh-kayyyy o_O
     
    Last edited: 09.26.14
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  15. MrLogan13

    MrLogan13 2+ Year Member

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    Wow. The over generalizations and prejudice against Asians are astounding. You say URM's should have additional consideration in admissions, but then go on to make racially charged statements about Asians?
     
  16. mcloaf

    mcloaf 2+ Year Member

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    I gathered as much by reading the OP.
     
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  17. AlteredScale

    AlteredScale Staff Member SDN Moderator 2+ Year Member

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    If the reason why you did not pursue biology was because of classmates, then you'd probably leave medical school for the same reason.

    That sign of neuroticism in those bio/premeds may be annoying, but it's a conjuring of wanting to work hard because they realize the extreme competitive nature of getting into medical school.

    OP, your post is pretentious, arrogant, and quite racist.

    This thread should be closed.
     
  18. ithd

    ithd

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    OP assumes Asians are pretentious and in it for all the wrong reasons (money, prestige) while URMs are not, so URMs should have an advantage in medical school admissions. You're a racist, and as an upper middle class URM, you should be happy with what you have as a premed.
     
  19. TooMuchResearch

    TooMuchResearch i'm goin' to Kathmandu... Lifetime Donor 7+ Year Member

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    I did not read the post, as it was too long.
     
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  20. bloggy101

    bloggy101

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    Dear OP,

    Just because you are URM does not mean your opinions/observations of the URM community are validated as facts...nor are your opinions/observations about anything else for that matter. Your generalizations about engineers being arrogant are false. Your generalizations about asians premeds being mostly materialistic are false. Your generalizations that a "poor white person or black/hispanic" goes into medicine with the intention of giving back to his/her community are false. You are biased in your worldviews because of what you have seen due to the life you have lived, as are we all. For each generalization you gave I can think of a counter generalization simply due to my own life experiences.

    You have a right to think what you want but you don't have a right to condemn other groups of people on an academic internet forum using superficial observations as facts. It's hurtful to others, and also makes you seem like a bitter entitled child. I implore you to save these kind of rants for your own medical school interviews so as to save the world from one less doctor that "patients don't like".
     
  21. pathologicalhopeful

    pathologicalhopeful

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    Why would I feel inferior for being a non-biology major? Biology is purely memorization and I excel at that. Chemistry is another story (takes both memorization and high analytical ability). Biology is really easy to me, and I have taken computational neuroscience, genetics, biophysics for my masters and have outperformed the biology majors. Also majoring in engineering I have a sense of security every summer that I can get an internship and if I don't like med school after I can always work for an engineering company.
    As for being racist against Asians, nope---nice try though. I'm not going to be the white kid that is like "I have black friends" but I do have Asian friends, all of them are Asian, I date an Asian guy. His family is like my family. These sentiments I expressed have come from Asians themselves. That there is an overwhelming pressure to excel and compare yourself to the next family. Asian parents adore my mother--she is crazier than them when it comes to academics and managed to drive all of her kids crazy enough to get into Ivy League schools --we went mostly because they are on the other side of the country.
     
  22. bumpbumped

    bumpbumped 2+ Year Member

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    Biology isn't purely memorization...ask those who get PhDs and end up doing biological research...

    Okie dokie
     
  23. pathologicalhopeful

    pathologicalhopeful

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    Also, why should this thread be closed, when all the anti-Hispanics and black threads are still commented on in droves?
    You can say what you like and that I'm entitled--that's true but during my undergrad I would always go south of 110 and to Harlem and talk to the Puerto Ricans and African-Americans. I learned a lot from them and I felt comfortable around them....something I never truly felt on campus--even if I was raised in a more privileged upbringing. I wasn't afraid of those neighborhoods and they accepted me, we talked just to talk and I actually admire them because they realized there is more important things in life than money and they taught me this. Even amidst the gentrification they still don't worship money.
    You can say I'd make a bad doctor and my patients wouldn't like me but one of my strengths is my ability to communicate with different types of people from WASPS to the homeless.
    You wouldn't have to worry about my patients not liking me, because they would most likely all be Hispanic and black anyways.
     
  24. maxilofacial

    maxilofacial

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    I skimmed the post made by the OP, then read the username and came to a brilliant conclusion, these trolls are getting better and they're making quality trolling here lately.
     
  25. Doctor Strange

    Doctor Strange Sorcerer Supreme Lifetime Donor 2+ Year Member

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    Oh, how could I have been so blind? I've been in medicine for the money and prestige all along!
     
  26. pathologicalhopeful

    pathologicalhopeful

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    I actually work for a biology professor for research. I help him with image processing his samples. PhD in any STEM field != to a doctor, I expressed this earlier. But nice try to try to catch all my nuances to diverge from the point.
    People are allowed to call out Hispanics and blacks and not get reprimanded keep in mind these people have no idea about Hispanic or black culture. I live with Asians, eat with them, have all my courses with them, my boyfriend's mom taught me how to make moon cakes because they're the best goddamn things ever and I can't offer my $0.02?
    There's a double standard and I am tired of Asians on this forum complaining about Hispanics and blacks and blaming all their shortcomings on being Asian, is this too hard to understand?
     
  27. Doctor Strange

    Doctor Strange Sorcerer Supreme Lifetime Donor 2+ Year Member

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    Right, because I'm sure the Asians you hang out with represent all Asians everywhere and gives you the authority to make sweeping generalizations about "most Asians." You're entitled to your own opinion, but you can't post a myopic thread like this and not expect to get a negative response.
     
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  28. ciruji

    ciruji SURGERY 2+ Year Member

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    I would not mess with Asians, their ninjas are far more dangerous than El Zorro and Blade(Wesley Snipes).
     
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  29. pathologicalhopeful

    pathologicalhopeful

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    I also majored in a language and am fluent in 4 (not because my family speaks them--they don't--but because I wanted to learn them). I have also taken many linguistics and world religion courses. Most people were surprised when I would go to a Child Rights meeting in uGrad, speak up and then found out I was an engineer later.

    If anything, I have a SUPERIORITY complex for not majoring in bio
     
  30. MrLogan13

    MrLogan13 2+ Year Member

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    More generalizations and stereotypes. Nice.
     
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  31. pathologicalhopeful

    pathologicalhopeful

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    Question for you all:
    Do the threads calling out black and Hispanic applicants not receive any negative response? WE ALL KNOW THEY DO
    I am going to assume a vast majority of people on here are Asian and can't see the log in front of their own eye..
    and did you guys not get a chance to look at HoboCommanders post, which agreed with my statement about family, prestige and money?
    you are selectively looking at posts.

    WHY SHOULD HISPANICS AND BLACKS BE ALLOWED TO BE DEGRADED ON HERE BUT NOT ASIANS?
     
  32. crossingthefingers

    crossingthefingers

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    @pathologicalhopeful, maybe you could go for a run or do some yoga if you're feeling upset? I think that's usually a nice thing.
     
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  33. pathologicalhopeful

    pathologicalhopeful

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    @MrLogan13 , when URMs are consistently called out and generalized, do you come to their rescue on the comments section?
    DIDN'T THINK SO
     
  34. AlteredScale

    AlteredScale Staff Member SDN Moderator 2+ Year Member

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    Need I say anything more? Get off your high horse OP.
     
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  35. AlteredScale

    AlteredScale Staff Member SDN Moderator 2+ Year Member

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    Lol. Bye OP.
     
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  36. pathologicalhopeful

    pathologicalhopeful

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    I know my post was long but I did make a point to address engineers are very socially awkward and I even explained why they tend to be arrogant. You have to average 18+ credits a quarter/semester, watch other people go out and party and then get denied a job because you weren't good at the behavioral aka social part of the interview--this happened to some of my friends :( And then tangentially you have to hear pre-meds complaining about how hard they work and how dedicated they are when you know you're major is much harder....especially those poor chemical engineers.
     
  37. pathologicalhopeful

    pathologicalhopeful

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    @AlteredScale, I hope you are this passionate on the threads complaining about URMs but I know you're not
     
  38. totu22

    totu22

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    It's definitely relative. I went to an ivy w/ notoriously hard engineering and I worked just as hard as my engineering friends because it's okay for them to just pass and pre-meds need mostly A's. Being an engineer and premed is your choice.
     
  39. Dr Turkelton

    Dr Turkelton 5+ Year Member

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    This might be the douchiest post I have ever seen. Congrats OP.
     
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  40. Afford

    Afford

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    Last edited: 09.26.14
  41. Doctor Strange

    Doctor Strange Sorcerer Supreme Lifetime Donor 2+ Year Member

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    What? So you think it's okay to make generalizations and negative comments about Asians because there are some people out there that do it to blacks and hispanics? I'm sorry, but if that is your logic, then I have no interest in continuing this discussion. Racism is racism, and two wrongs don't make a right. I sincerely hope you grow up someday and look back at what you've written here today with disgust.
     
  42. pathologicalhopeful

    pathologicalhopeful

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    I agree @totu22, in engineering you just need a 3.0 to get into some firm. But you still have to interview well. Also most engineers come in already accepting their fate. Most engineers at my school came from very low income families and out of all the majors, engineering is more secure than other fields for jobs and has the quickest turnaround rate meaning work your ass off for four years, land a job. On average people in my graduating class make 80k-120k right out of college (with 5% annual increase and stock options) and are actually helping to support their families.

    No one has addressed whether or not they are this outspoken on URM threads that consistently put down Hispanic and black applicants.
     
  43. Lucca

    Lucca Will Walk Rope for Sandwich 2+ Year Member

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    What exactly is it that you want from us?
     
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  44. Lucca

    Lucca Will Walk Rope for Sandwich 2+ Year Member

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    As my posting history will show, I have been very vocal on anti-URM threads in the past but that does not somehow make it OK to take the same aggressive rhetoric and apply it to our Asian friends.
     
  45. Snoopy2006

    Snoopy2006 7+ Year Member

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    Do you realize what people's perception of you is?

    You should use this in your personal statement. "I communicate well with WASPS and homeless people. Also, I will probably only be taking care of Hispanic and black people."
     
  46. SnakeOilForSale

    SnakeOilForSale Everyday I'm hustlin 2+ Year Member

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    For someone so noble and disinterested in prestige, you sure do have the heart of a braggart.
     
  47. AlteredScale

    AlteredScale Staff Member SDN Moderator 2+ Year Member

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    It doesn't matter whose major is harder. Medical admissions expect certain criteria to be met. If you are socially awkward or quiet because you're an engineer (another assumption OP has made) then you will have a harder time at the interview then those bio majors who have better communication skills than you. And AdComs will laugh you out of their school if you tell them "but I went through a harder major".
     
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  48. MrLogan13

    MrLogan13 2+ Year Member

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    What does it matter which groups we choose to defend? Everyone is biased as to who they want to go to bat for. I am self-aware enough to know that about myself.

    The fact that you stick up for other URM's while criticizing and making assumptions about why Asians go into medicine makes you just as biased.
     
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  49. pathologicalhopeful

    pathologicalhopeful

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    @MrLogan13 liking away at the posts but don't mind when the shots are fired towards those of brown or black persuasions.
    A class being harder vs being graded harder is different. Grades aren't always an indication of how well you know the material and I will admit the hardest class I took "to get an A in" was a biology class...because he purposefully didn't want anyone to get >90 it seemed. I found out his simple trick. Read the book. He took all his questions from direct sentences in the textbook. It was like a fill-in-the-blank game I actually told people that's all I do to study...just read the chapter twice the night before--they didn't believe it was that easy. I got the highest grade in that class....most of the pre-meds got B+s and Bs but I was also pissed at the professor for how annoying that class was.
    But material wise, Digital Signal Processing, Semiconductor Physics, and Thermodynamics etc ARE undeniably much harder.

    Like all Thermo professors say, no one REALLY understands thermo/stat mech except maybe Enrico Fermi or Kittel, we just pretend...and of course that class was heavily curved.
     
  50. MrLogan13

    MrLogan13 2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    05.16.14
    Messages:
    1,398
    Status:
    Medical Student
    For the record, I avoid URM threads because nothing good comes from them. If I did, I would be supportive of giving additional consideration to URM's. I came into your thread because I thought it was going to be about pre-meds being jerks (and would have partially agreed with you, despite that also being a generalization), but then you veered off on your rant against Asians.
     
  51. chillinillinkillin007

    chillinillinkillin007

    Joined:
    01.06.14
    Messages:
    283
    trust me you don't want to read it.
     

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