Do pre-meds ever "shadow" medical students?

[DermViser]

Uh, there were many students that were in my class in medical school that complained about "not getting to suture". They were also the people that fit into categories 1-3 as listed before. What you are saying is that if someone had an interest in suturing, there is nothing available at your medical school for their students to suture on patients with the supervision of residents/staff? If THAT is true, that is just a poorly run/setup medical school and not the norm.

I am at a complete and total loss how you can translate "what the heck med school did you go to that you have such a poor opinion of medical school training" into, "Are you actually making the argument that an MS-3 gets to do almost everything on each rotation?" Talk about putting words into someone's mouth or simply being obtuse... You are claiming that it is impossible to suture at your institution or do "anything". I've been at several institutions, none of which were even remotely close to as restrictive. I have heard the same complaints at those institutions, always coming from people that were mostly expecting someone to hand hold them.

An MS-3 is not usually going to take the bull by the horns during a surgery and directly ask the surgery attending to suture to close. I'm pretty sure you're aware of that. It has nothing to do with liking/interest or not.

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[mehc012]

I didn't tour my undergraduate university.

I'll give you not pointless but contend that very near pointless is dead on.

Lets just save curious premeds some time: For two years, medical students watch lectures and read PowerPoint slides, typically with some number of labs, small groups, and clinical skills/standardized or real patient encounters. In the next two years, med students spend their time in hospitals and clinics doing some combination of seeing patients, watching others see patients, trying to stay awake in the OR, and often attending 1-2 hour lectures. There are tests throughout the four years.

Then residency +/- fellowship.

Then attendingland, which is why you went to school.

Thanks, that wasn't ANYwhere on the internet.
Seeing is different than reading. It's why many schools have drop-add periods...you can tell more in the first 2min of watching a prof lecture than diligently researching the course description, syllabus, past reviews, and prof's grading history. You are free to disagree, but I think anything that gives you a more concrete view of your possible future is a good thing. It's not going to hurt, and it may help you out.

 

[Caesar]

What I wish is that a medical student would put a video of his/her entire day on fast forward up on youtube.

A student I'm tutoring came up with this question, but now I'm curious too.

I had a couple follow me in M1 and M2. I kind of liked it, got to know them a bit and answer questions they had about things. They all ended up at my school so it must not have been miserable for them either.

 

[TooMuchResearch]

An MS-3 is not usually going to take the bull by the horns during a surgery and directly ask the surgery attending to suture to close. I'm pretty sure you're aware of that. It has nothing to do with liking/interest or not.

Why not ask the attending if you can give it a shot? I did. Many times. Ended up with a bunch of first assists. Heck, I used a flexible bronchoscope on a kid, under supervision of course, in one of the first days of MS3. Sutured gaping lacs that required layered closures. Did some other stuff that isn't coming to mind right now. Also had my fair share of standing so far back I couldn't see, but sometimes that's the way it goes.

If you want to learn, speak up and let people know about it. Opportunities will present themselves.

 

[Captain Toad]

Yeah, but they'll only show the "good" parts. Like every other part of med school admissions.

Relax. Don't be so cynical. The first class hasn't even stepped through the front door.

I shadowed medical students. It was a great opportunity to learn about the medical school and see what it is like with the grade scales, curving, and quality of professors and prep for boards. you cannot get this here on Student doc, so it was useful. Plus you get an actual preview of what 3rd/4th year is like at that som.

 

[Ismet]

An MS-3 is not usually going to take the bull by the horns during a surgery and directly ask the surgery attending to suture to close. I'm pretty sure you're aware of that. It has nothing to do with liking/interest or not.

Why so cynical

It does have to do with interest. The gung-ho surgery people in my class and the class below me have assisted in some way quite a bit in surgeries already, even when just there for shadowing. Sure if the student is very reserved and usually doesn't speak up, they're probably not going to ask to close in a room full of docs. I personally don't want to do surgery and I'm naturally pretty reserved, so I most likely won't be the one speaking up in the OR. But if you really want to get a certain experience and speak up, you're more likely to get it than not.

 

[DermViser]

Why so cynical

It does have to do with interest. The gung-ho surgery people in my class and the class below me have assisted in some way quite a bit in surgeries already, even when just there for shadowing. Sure if the student is very reserved and usually doesn't speak up, they're probably not going to ask to close in a room full of docs. I personally don't want to do surgery and I'm naturally pretty reserved, so I most likely won't be the one speaking up in the OR. But if you really want to get a certain experience and speak up, you're more likely to get it than not.

Nothing cynical about it. It's called not wanting to rock the boat or volunteering for something and then thoroughly messing up.

 

[Ismet]

Nothing cynical about it. It's called not wanting to rock the boat or volunteering for something and then thoroughly messing up.

Full disclosure that I have very limited personal experience so far in rotations, and I thankfully haven't encountered any toxic attendings/residents yet. But from the experience I do have, it's actually been encouraged to speak up or ask to do something. I had a feedback meeting with my attending earlier this week, and one of the things he mentioned is that he'd like to see me ask to do more things. He doesn't want a med student who sheepishly does what needs to be done, and he doesn't want to have to hold our hands and tell us what to do while we get through the month (those are my words, not his). I assume if you have a more "toxic" attending you would have to be more careful about what you say/ask, but the teaching faculty in general at my institution are very welcoming to medical students and, if asked, would either let the med student do something, help the med student do something, or politely say no and explain why.

 

[ridethecliche]

I work in research and interact with med students, residents, fellows, and attendings.

I learn just about as much from the residents as I do from the attendings. Do the attendings know more? Absolutely, but so much of that is so specific that it really doesn't apply to most of the more basic questions I have.

I have shadowed and rounded with the residents and fellows and I learn a TON from them. There's really no formal way to put it into an experience when the fellows and residents text me when they see a cool case when they're on call and go to do a neuro-exam (spine/ortho consult) and I get to sit there and watch them. If the patient isn't critical, I get to ask them questions sometimes after explaining that I'm not a doctor and then later get to pick the resident/fellow for info regarding what they were looking for etc.

You learn very quickly what you should/shouldn't say in front of a patient just by shutting up and watching. The bigger issue that I've found is that people with no experience think that they're hot **** and actively want to do stuff which is NOT their place. They're disappointed when they can't because they don't temper their expectations.

Just like when I'm in the OR, I feel lucky as heck when I'm allowed to ask the attending/fellow a question about what they're doing and they end up explaining the procedure to me while waiting for intraoperative images etc. This stuff isn't the norm, but you'll never be there to see it if you think you're too awesome to deal with the 'mundane'.

Because the staff know me, I get called in, taught to do neuro-exams. If the patients give permission, I get to check for clonus, reflexes, etc etc. It doesn't happen often, but it's awesome when it does. When I shadowed an attending, a patient let him demonstrate heart sounds and let me hear their murmur.

It all comes down to how helpful you make yourself when you're not getting something out of it. They're more likely to remember you and do something that you'll enjoy.

 

[mimelim]

An MS-3 is not usually going to take the bull by the horns during a surgery and directly ask the surgery attending to suture to close. I'm pretty sure you're aware of that. It has nothing to do with liking/interest or not.

Why not? If you have done your reading an have practiced your technique, why not ask to help close the skin? Why not ask to be walked through a closure? Sure there will be times it isn't appropriate, but it will be a minority. It may get taken at any from you if you are extremely slow or don't know what you are doing (ie you didn't practice before showing up). But that is how you learn.

If you are incapable of talking to the attending, try the PA, resident, fellow, anyone else... Who are more than likely doing the closure anyways.

 

[DermViser]

I work in research and interact with med students, residents, fellows, and attendings.

I learn just about as much from the residents as I do from the attendings. Do the attendings know more? Absolutely, but so much of that is so specific that it really doesn't apply to most of the more basic questions I have.

I have shadowed and rounded with the residents and fellows and I learn a TON from them. There's really no formal way to put it into an experience when the fellows and residents text me when they see a cool case when they're on call and go to do a neuro-exam (spine/ortho consult) and I get to sit there and watch them. If the patient isn't critical, I get to ask them questions sometimes after explaining that I'm not a doctor and then later get to pick the resident/fellow for info regarding what they were looking for etc.

You learn very quickly what you should/shouldn't say in front of a patient just by shutting up and watching. The bigger issue that I've found is that people with no experience think that they're hot **** and actively want to do stuff which is NOT their place. They're disappointed when they can't because they don't temper their expectations.

Just like when I'm in the OR, I feel lucky as heck when I'm allowed to ask the attending/fellow a question about what they're doing and they end up explaining the procedure to me while waiting for intraoperative images etc. This stuff isn't the norm, but you'll never be there to see it if you think you're too awesome to deal with the 'mundane'.

I also think when you shadow medical students or residents you get the real deal. When you shadow an attending you're getting the varnished, Pledge lemon clean scent finished product. It's helpful to know what the years of medical education thru medical school and residency training are like.