DO school with full-tuition scholarship vs. MD school with no scholarship

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How ironic is this last point considering that most of pro-MD posters in this thread bring up the argument of going into a competitive speciality on the grounds of making more money.

It's not about making more money, though the possibility of making more helps offset the debt.

It's about significantly increasing the likelihood of matching into the specialty of your choice, and matching at a significantly better program in that specialty.

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Debt free at graduation? You’d be stupid to pass up the DO. I’m honestly appalled that so many people here think otherwise. But doctors never were famous for financial literacy.

You’ll be shocked to find out people turn down full rides to their state schools to attend Top 20 schools for >$200K debt.

I mean people even turn down full rides at UCLA or Duke to attend Harvard or UCSF at full cost! If you want to criticize them for being financially illiterate, feel free.
 
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OP, I think there are two sides to this, and I'm going to recommend Mercer for two reasons: 1) if you choose to do primary care, there are loan forgiveness programs that will pay off a large chunk of your additional loans. 2) If you decide you want to do a specialty, you'll have a much easier time matching from an MD program (especially one like Mercer) and you'll be making a lot more money, so that can help pay off your loans faster. ie - you can come out ahead with the MD either way.

It should also be noted that quite a few people pushing you to go MD are at DO schools - some have had issues with the match this year. Because of the primary care loan forgiveness programs, I think you can have peace of mind that going MD will be a good decision regardless of whether you change your mind on specialty down the road. It leaves that option open while also providing a path to pay your loans off quickly.
 
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You’ll be shocked to find out people turn down full rides to their state schools to attend Top 20 schools for >$200K debt.

I mean people even turn down full rides at UCLA or Duke to attend Harvard or UCSF at full cost! If you want to criticize them for being financially illiterate, feel free.

I wouldn't say financially illiterate but I would say kind of dumb if the prestige was the only reason they did it.
 
There's A LOT of things that I feel need to be addressed in this thread, so I apologize for the massive post. I'll also say up front that I don't think this is the clear black and white decision some people are making it out to be, but I agree with those saying to try and get some scholarship money from Mercer but take the MD acceptance either way. Here's my reasons:

1. You don't know what you'll want to go into. I know you're pretty sure you want to do FM or psych now, but what if you decide you want to do something like derm later? If you were a 3rd year DO right now I'd say you'd probably be fine, but 4 years from now when the merger is complete will likely be a very different picture.

2. You don't know how the merger will affect DOs. My guess is that for primary care fields it will actually be beneficial, as those applicants who were solid but cautious and matched AOA will be able to rank ACGME programs at the same time, meaning solid applicants won't be getting pulled out of the ACGME match. At the same time, I think it will likely hurt DOs shooting for competitive fields like ortho, derm, or ENT. However, we don't know if that will actually happen or not. Whatever field you pursue, you'll be facing an uncertain match future as a DO which is not something you'd have to deal with as an MD.

3. Your odds in the match will almost certainly be better as an MD than a DO. This could be due to bias. It could be due to less resources at the DO institution. It could be a genuine difference in reputation and quality of the two schools. Whatever the reason, the chances that going DO will not have any impact on your choices are basically zero.

4. You're still young. Yea, you're a non-trad and you won't have as many years to make doctor money as some of your classmates. However, you'll still likely have 30+ years to make up for the difference in debt which will come from going MD over DO. If you were going to be finishing residency at 55, then this would be a completely different conversation. You're not going to be 55 though, at the very oldest you'd still be in your 30's. Yes, the debt is large and scary, but even 500k is still manageable with a 200k+ income if you know how to manage it.

5. MD opens up more career options than DO. If you end up in private practice or being employed by a community hospital, then it won't make a difference. What if you end up wanting to enter academia though? What if you decide you want to do research? What if you decide you want to go the IM route and then enter a fellowship? The DO route will likely limit your options for you as well as decrease the resources available to you while in medical school. I can tell you personally that my current career trajectory is absolutely nothing like I would have predicted 4 years ago when I was getting ready to enter med school, and it will likely change again over the course of residency.


I think there are very rare occasions when I would recommend going DO over MD. You actually meet some of those criteria (significant financial difference, importance of location to family, and strong desire to enter PC). However, I don't think the distance is so great between the two locations that I'd recommend DO over MD (it seems you're within 3 hours of family/where you want to be either way). I also am always hesitant to tell people that if you're planning on entering FM or another PC field, that DO is fine simply because so many people change their mind. So imo, the only real factor for DO over MD is financial. Which is a very valid concern, but I personally think having the flexibility and options of your MD choice outweigh the financial burden here. So again, I'd recommend going MD over DO though I certainly wouldn't blame you if you went DO because of financial burdens.

I'll also add that I am giving this advice as someone who chose to cancel MD interviews after gaining acceptance to a DO school. I can honestly say I have zero regrets about my decision and would make the same decision to choose DO over MD again, but my situation also had several other factors which played a role. If you've got questions feel free to respond or PM and I'd be happy to talk about why I made my decision.


Other points to address:

Y'all making it seem like OP's stuck in primary care with a DO...

If they were going into the match this year, I'd agree with you. However OP will be entering the match after the merger is complete and it seems likely that DOs will have a significantly more difficult time entering competitive fields than they do now unless they're on par with the elite applicants. Moderately competitive fields like EM, gas, and rads will still be wide open for DOs, but implying her options won't be significantly limited is just disingenuous.

You think you're going to pay off $100k in debt plus interest during residency?

If you're single and continue to live even a little frugally you can do it, especially if you moonlight. Even if she doesn't, paying off the interest on 100k in debt is a lot easier than 3ook worth of interest.

In terms of location, GA-PCOM wins 1000% hands-down. I did enjoy the atmosphere at Mercer, but most of Mercer's appeal over GA-PCOM comes down to those curriculum and scheduling factors I mentioned. Things like grading system and time to prepare for boards are pretty significant factors to consider, though, I think.

Here's something to consider about location. PCOM may be a more ideal location for medical school, but what about residency? If you go to Mercer, you'd be better off when the match comes around and more likely to match into a program in a location you want to be in. So while you may be in the location you want for med school, you may be hurting your chances of being where you want further down the road.

$200k is not that big a difference when it comes to matching into the specialty of your choice.

If she's going to go into PC either way though, 200k is a very big difference. It's an even bigger difference when you take into account interest (she'll likely end paying off $130k vs. 400k+) as well as lost retirement/investment funds (that $200k turns into $864k in 30 years at a 5% return rate). So it could end up being a 7 figure difference if she end up in the same field either way. That's assuming the OP doesn't end up in a field with much higher income of course, in which case she could likely make the difference up in 5-7 years pretty easily.

Even if he ends up as a primary care physician, MD will be conducive to a more successful practice. The general public still holds a stigma against DO and in private practice, you are highly dependent on your patients (customers). Now, I'm not saying you're gonna be struggling to find patients as a DO but you're dreaming if you think it'll be as easy as an MD. Most privately insured patients will go to MD. If you want a concierge practice that caters to the rich, they will go MD.

Already said, but unless you're in one of the very few geographic regions where the public is actually aware of this difference and has bias, this statement is baloney. As SLC said, most patients don't even know that there's a difference between NPs and physicians and are more than happy to see any PCP who will fit them in within the next week. Your statement about privately insured patients is also completely wrong, and it makes me think you have no idea how reimbursement and insurance networks actually work. Your point on concierge medicine is more valid, especially in certain cities like NYC (which is where I assume you're from based on your pic), but I also rotated with or know 4 DOs who practice either DPC or concierge and all pull in 300k+ working less than 40 hours a week. So it's certainly not a career path exclusive to MDs at all.

Also, just an anecdote. One of my friends wanted to do family med or psych.... then decided she wanted to do both. There are combined family med-psych residencies.

There are fewer than 20 spots in the country.

Yeah, it's primary care, but what if you decide you want to try for family med-psych? Primary care and psych are both on your list. How would you feel submitting applications to family med-psych as a DO vs MD?

2 problems with this line of thought. First is that it's a financially stupid decision to enter into any of the combined psych programs which are psych-med and I was advised by literally every psych and med physician I've talked to not to bother with that route. It's purely for self-satisfaction and almost never aids in your career or finances.

The other is that the actual programs are either not that difficult to get into or they are at programs that are very elite and out of reach for DOs anyway. One of my classmates actually matched into one of the stronger combined-psych programs as a DO and her overall stats were around average from what she told me. So while I see your point, I disagree with it on multiple fronts and don't think it should really be a consideration at this point.
 
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No more than I did, my school was about as expensive as I was willing to attend.

In the end, it wasn’t cost that steered me away from trying to subspecialize, it was the 6+ years of Post graduate training. I turned 30 during M1, and wasn’t going to be in my 40’s and still a trainee. I wasn’t even thinking about money back then, that reality smacked me when I graduated.

Not sure where you’re trying to go with this line of questions.

Let's be honest here, you didn't go IM because you couldn't get in. The match process wasn't exactly as smooth for you as you imply.
 
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Let's be honest here, you didn't go IM because you couldn't get in. The match process wasn't exactly as smooth for you as you imply.

He had a 227 Step 1 score and above-average grades, and he still ended up having to SOAP into FM.

Now he's here to preach to us about how DO is just as good for those interested in primary care as MD.
 
Even if he ends up as a primary care physician, MD will be conducive to a more successful practice. The general public still holds a stigma against DO and in private practice, you are highly dependent on your patients (customers). Now, I'm not saying you're gonna be struggling to find patients as a DO but you're dreaming if you think it'll be as easy as an MD. Most privately insured patients will go to MD. If you want a concierge practice that caters to the rich, they will go MD.

How? The majority of America doesn’t know what DO stands for. Most people in healthcare won’t care. All being equal, almost everyone would go to MD.

Yeah the average patients doesn't even know who the MA is let alone the degree their doctor has. This is literally garbage. Most primary care practices where I'm from have a mix of MD and DO physicians, and my home state is pretty notorious for being MD-centric.

Females can't do neurosurgery? News to me.

That's....... not what she said...
 
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Let's be honest here, you didn't go IM because you couldn't get in. The match process wasn't exactly as smooth for you as you imply.

Just realized he was the one complaining that people see FM as a catch-all for people not competitive enough for other specialties.
 
You’ll be shocked to find out people turn down full rides to their state schools to attend Top 20 schools for >$200K debt.

I mean people even turn down full rides at UCLA or Duke to attend Harvard or UCSF at full cost! If you want to criticize them for being financially illiterate, feel free.

I will absolutely criticize them for that.
 
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I personally would take the MD acceptance OP, but I have career goals that you don't. The letters really do make things a lot easier come match time. Like a lot easier. For me the 200k is easily worth it.
 
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5. MD opens up more career options than DO. If you end up in private practice or being employed by a community hospital, then it won't make a difference. What if you end up wanting to enter academia though? What if you decide you want to do research? What if you decide you want to go the IM route and then enter a fellowship? The DO route will likely limit your options for you as well as decrease the resources available to you while in medical school. I can tell you personally that my current career trajectory is absolutely nothing like I would have predicted 4 years ago when I was getting ready to enter med school, and it will likely change again over the course of residency.

I'm pretty sure Goro said matching a fellowship after IM is not really any more difficult as DO.
 
I will absolutely criticize them for that.

Elite School (150k Debt) vs. State School (no debt)

I think 150K is a lot of money. For most schools I would not pay such a difference, but for the right school I would. There would need to be clear opportunities that I intend to take advantage of or benefit from and not just a general fuzzy sense "betterness" about the school. I faced this exact scenario and chose to pay well over $150K when I had full ride and full tuition offers on the table from great schools. At the end of the day, I decided my goal is not to maximize my career earnings and that my actual goals were better served paying a buttload of money. I'm not "happy" about it and think about the debt all the time, but I had a clear set of reasons for my choice and I'd do it again every time.
It's possible that my view on a variety of things could change post graduation or residency. Similar to what Q has mentioned, it's likely that I will see and learn many things that I could not have anticipated. However, anticipating that which I truly cannot know is out of my control. My goal when making big decisions is to consider this question: Did I make make my best effort to investigate and find all the relevant information that I could, and did I make a logical objective decision using this information? So long as I was painstakingly thorough and objective in my decision making, I seldom ever feel remorse or regret for decisions that I make.

This very much means making plans A, B, C, D, E, and F. I spent months making my decision for a reason. That process involved researching schools, contacting and speaking with professors at schools, speaking to current students, researching repayment plans and financial information, researching various career options (academics vs policy vs business vs private practice, etc), speaking with people in different professions, speaking with people who quit/delayed/turned down medical school, and looking back on my previous choices to make sure that I wasn't repeating mistakes I've made in the past or ignoring important lessons. It also involves taking a step back and looking at my personal values and priorities in life as a whole. If after the end of all this I make a choice and later think to myself, "Dang, I really didn't need to pay >$200,000 to go to this school", all I can do is shrug my shoulders and accept that I did my best to make an objective reasoned decision at the time. Even accounting for this eventuality is one of the things that I considered, and I had to do my best to assign that hypothetical scenario the proper weight (i.e. "If my plans change, how damaging will the lost flexibility of owing money be? What sort of career or lifestyle options will be sacrificed? How much do I value those career or lifestyle options and am I comfortable with the possibility of losing out on them? Etc").

It's not easy and it's a decision that I hope few people take lightly. But if one is thorough and objective, I absolutely think that for some people simply paying the money will best serve their interests at particular schools.

@IlDestriero @SLC @getdown and any attending/resident reading this thread: what are your thoughts on the above quoted posts?
 
Duke and UCLA are not average state schools. Come on dude. You’re better than that.

I’m not implying that or even agreeing with those views. I’m saying people make these decisions all the time in every cycle. We can criticize them for being financially illiterate and brushing off $200K in debt like it’s nothing but that doesn’t dissuade them from making bad decisions.
 
I’m not implying that or even agreeing with those views. I’m saying people make these decisions all the time in every cycle. We can criticize them for being financially illiterate and brushing off $200K in debt like it’s nothing but that doesn’t dissuade them from making bad decisions.

Ah. Then I agree with you.
 
Go to a medical school that gives you the best opportunity and resources . Not saying debt is not important , but if you had to choose a school based on what they have to offer or what school gives you the best chance at matching , where would you go ....?
 
I'd like to think that after not getting in anywhere last cycle and spending several months assuming that the DO acceptance would be the only one I would ever get this cycle, I've squashed down my ego a good bit over the past two years lol, but it would be disingenuous to say that there is none involved at all. I do think I could be perfectly happy as a DO, and I do also think that most of my concerns about the DO program are pretty rational. I'm a very laborious studier, so the thought of not having that dedicated time to focus just on Step 1 makes me very nervous. I've seen several enrolled students express dissatisfaction with the clinical rotation situation. There are aspects of the MD program that give me pause as well, though. There's unfortunately no perfect decision here, and I'm going to have to spend a lot of time weighing the pros and cons of each option. I wish it were a clearer-cut choice.

Side note since others brought this up: There are no kids involved in my situation, unless you count one admittedly very attention-demanding dog lol.

You say you are a "laborious studier" -- I will take that to mean you have to work long and hard to do well and as such, might have a greater risk of a course failure or two if you get overwhelmed. Most MD schools are much more supportive of students who experience academic hiccups; many DO schools are reputed to be quick with 'the boot'.

If that rings true to you, I'd look at very closely at each school's policies.
 
Maybe @Goro would shed some light on this because I'm one of those future DOs that is interested in one or more IM subspecialties.

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Talk to actual residents and students when it comes to residency and fellowship. Goro is a great resource for many things, but for those topics he is not.
 
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I know current DO students who would GLADLY take on that extra debt to get an MD. Don’t underestimate what a good clinical site can do for you.

That and...the whole no dedicated study thing is a huge issue IMO, especially now that I am in my dedicated study time for Step.
 
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Hasn't been a issue for my graduates.

And I’m sure that every grad of yours that has gone into IM has reported back.

I should clarify my position: there is still a bias that IM residents face when applying to fellowships if they are DOs, however, the biggest hurdle comes before that in getting the right residency. IM is notorious for being very academic and old school, and they care A LOT about where you went for residency. Getting into the IM fellowships you want is largely a result of the residency you go to. The large majority of DOs go to community programs, most with unaffiliated fellowships, and getting into cardiology (for example) is more difficult from these programs.

In addition the fellowship match data shows I am right. DOs have lower match rates into the competitive IM fellowships than US MDs.

Edit: here is the 2018 data

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Results-and-Data-SMS-2018.pdf
 
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Let's be honest here, you didn't go IM because you couldn't get in. The match process wasn't exactly as smooth for you as you imply.

I didn’t go IM because after M3, I realized I wanted to take care of kids and adults, and wanted the option to do more women’s health and perhaps Obstetrics. I did a Sub-I in IM and was miserable all month, didn’t think I’d want to do that for 3 years straight. I also realized I liked Palliative care which is a fellowship option from FM. So I made the decision to switch. I didn’t settle on this until late September of M4, so I had to cobble a (probably sub-optimal) FM app together in a week, and apply late to the programs I applied to.

It had nothing to do with a non-competitive app.

And now I’ve got a kick-ass job in a rural hospital doing a little bit of everything and I couldn’t be any more thrilled with the way things turned out. 100% zero regrets.
 
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I'm wading into this a little late. But, I did try to read all of the responses. Simply put, I really think that everyone in this thread is wrong. The answer is, it depends. There is no one size fits all answer in this case. You can not definitively say, "This is the best course go XX" (where XX is MD or DO of course). It comes down to the individual, where they are in life and their priorities. I can imagine many people who MD is the 'correct' answer, while there are some (not the majority, but certainly not a tiny minority) where the 'correct' answer is DO. So with that global perspective, I'm going to try to stick to things that would be hard to argue against, just as more food for thought. Keep in mind for @naway (OP) the primary consideration for you based on these thoughts is, "What do I value and who am I?" For the rest of you, well I guess we can just discuss forever...

#1 You will get a better education at an MD school. From clinical sites to funding etc. It will be easier to obtain a stronger education from the MD school. If your sole goal is to be the best clinician that you can, you should go to the MD school.

#2 Your ability to match a residency program will not be significantly affected by MD vs. DO. (Given the schools listed, please read #3 before responding to #2) The vast majority of DOs match just fine. They go on to gain licensure and practice medicine in identical fashion to their MD counterparts. If your sole goal is to practice medicine, it does not matter which degree you have.

#3 Your ability to match a residency program of your choice will be impacted by MD vs. DO. Simple. DOs face bias in the match process. Many programs do not interview DOs. This is far more relevant at competitive programs, but is very real. If a particular specialty is of primary importance to you, or you just GOTTA be in a particular location, then you need to go MD.

#4 Unless you come from money, 200k is a substantial difference. I caution people that only have dealt with that kind of money via forums and internet arguments and not had to financially plan over 10-20 years how it will impact them to be careful. I will not do calculations in this thread as it doesn't serve much purpose. 200k in debt will affect the majority of physician's lifestyles during and after residency likely for a decade or more after you graduate medical school. How much it impacts is way too individualized to really go into, but sufficed to say, in my limited experience (maybe knowing ~100 residents or so) it ranges from soul crushing to minor annoyance.
I will also say as someone who is figuring out my first attending contract and job right now and is around dozens or so people in a similar boat, there is a substantial difference in how many of us are approaching things and debt is a big part of that.


Long story short, in my humble opinion, most of what is discussed/argued about in this thread is superfluous and not particularly relevant. This is an individual call and unless someone on here knows you really really well on a personal level and what you are all about, I don't think they can definitively say either is the 'correct' answer because their answer is going to be heavily influenced on what THEY think is important. At the end of the day, again, in my personal opinion, you should be doing what you think will make you the happiest over the course of your lifetime. For some on here, that means pursuing being the best clinician that they possibly can by chasing the best education, the best training etc that they can at every step of the way. The reality is that everyone is modulated at least somewhat by 'the real world' aka on some level adequate is enough. Not everyone needs to push things like that in order to be happy. Everyone's ambition level is different. Lifestyle, family, etc are incredibly variable and while you don't have a crystal ball to help you know what will happen in the future, you know a hell of a lot better than the rest of us where you think you are headed. I don't think that this is a 'hard' decision for everyone. Some people will know the answer immediately in both directions. Others (like you) may agonize about it because you can't figure out "how" to value different things or you simply don't know yourself well enough. But, I really do think that it comes down to those 4 things above. All the other things are small details in the grand scheme of things.
 
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One small addition since I re-read @Stagg737 's post. Fundamentally, I really hate how people throw around statistics on SDN. People like to post links to the PD survey, match lists, charting the outcomes, etc etc. And use them in really poor ways. The whole, "people change their minds about specialties" bit is one of those things. The people that change their minds about specialties change because of one of two things. #1 Ignorance about themselves or specialties or #2 The reality of trying to match competitive fields. There are different levels of ignorance. Personally, I didn't know anything about different specialties and would be on one extreme end of the spectrum. Consequently, I changed my specialty interests 5-6 times before applying integrated vascular. I found it hard to believe in medical school that anyone 'knew' what they wanted to do. In retrospect, yes, some of those people really shouldn't have been so certain, but others, it was obvious that they knew what they were interested in or what lifestyle they wanted or whatever because they knew themselves very well, this was particularly evident with the non-traditional students in my class.
 
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Im currently a pgy-2 resident doctor. Go with less debt. Trust me. If you work really hard and dont choose a really competitive specialty, you can overcome the barriers
 
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Elite School (150k Debt) vs. State School (no debt)




@IlDestriero @SLC @getdown and any attending/resident reading this thread: what are your thoughts on the above quoted posts?

Narmerguy's situation is different than OPs. He was choosing between very good MD schools vs OP that is choosing between MD and DO. Ultimately, Narmerguy's chances of matching into any specialty coming out of any of his schools would have been about the same. So, purely speaking from the financial aspect, he made a really stupid decision paying the extra 200K for the same education and opportunity. However, if he's happy due to whatever other factors he used to make his decision than maybe it was worth it. As someone who is paying off debts right now as an attending, the whole debt thing is a huge annoyance. Life literally revolves around getting that payment and having to postpone buying a house or car or vacations, etc. Incurring debt is no joke and anyone going to med school should think long and hard about the debt and interest they'll accrue in the process. All I can say is giving advice on SDN probably is how my parents feel when they tried to tell me things and I wouldn't listen, only to realize they were right in the end and it would have saved me a lot of trouble had I just took their word in the first place.

For OP, the decision between MD and DO is little more clear cut due to the known biases and hurdles DOs must face in the residency process. Like I said previously, if OP is 1000% sure she wants to do FM then go to the DO school, but if she's even slightly interested in anything else, I would keep my options open. Is the 200K debt worth it? Pains me to say it but in this case it might be. The question then becomes: what are you willing to live with? Not being able to match into your desired specialty or being saddled with huge debt?

However, just like mimelin said, the OP will have to make that decision based on what's important to her. I must disagree with mimelin's assertion that everyone's opinion in this thread is wrong. Yes, those opinions may not represent or address OPs true values, however if OP knew what those were she wouldn't have come here to ask our opinions in the first place. If nothing else, these opinions at least provide OP with some good information that she may not have considered before.
 
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I'm pretty sure Goro said matching a fellowship after IM is not really any more difficult as DO.

As others said, he's not really that knowledgeable about this part of the medical journey. Great resource for the pre-med/med part. Not as great later down the road (which is fine because he's not involved in that part of the career path).

Maybe @Goro would shed some light on this because I'm one of those future DOs that is interested in one or more IM subspecialties.

Sent from my SM-G950U using SDN mobile

See the following response and my response to it for clarification:

And I’m sure that every grad of yours that has gone into IM has reported back.

I should clarify my position: there is still a bias that IM residents face when applying to fellowships if they are DOs, however, the biggest hurdle comes before that in getting the right residency. IM is notorious for being very academic and old school, and they care A LOT about where you went for residency. Getting into the IM fellowships you want is largely a result of the residency you go to. The large majority of DOs go to community programs, most with unaffiliated fellowships, and getting into cardiology (for example) is more difficult from these programs.

In addition the fellowship match data shows I am right. DOs have lower match rates into the competitive IM fellowships than US MDs.

Edit: here is the 2018 data

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Results-and-Data-SMS-2018.pdf

This is mostly correct, a few things though. The bolded is 100% accurate. For many fellowships, especially the competitive fields (GI, cards) and elite fellowships, where you did residency is typically the single most important factor to landing these positions. It's also more difficult to get into these fields from community programs or weak academic programs. I don't necessarily agree that "most DOs go to community programs", though it is definitely not common for DOs to get into elite academic IM programs, which is problematic for those seeking competitive fellowships.

While there also may be some DO bias at these locations, I think it plays far less of a role than many other factors. For example, DOs are less likely to come from powerhouse residency programs, they're less likely to have extensive research on their CVs due to less resources in med school, they're less likely to be able to make strong connections at their home programs and in general (often because they don't have home programs), as well as a plethora of other issues which come from having less resources during medical school than those who come from MD schools. So while the bias may be there, I'd guess it's more of an indirect bias coming from MD applicants' abilities to put together strong CVs train at better more reputable programs due to these issues.

Regardless of the reason, I agree that a DO will likely have a harder time getting into fellowships, especially competitive ones, than their MD counterparts.

One small addition since I re-read @Stagg737 's post. Fundamentally, I really hate how people throw around statistics on SDN. People like to post links to the PD survey, match lists, charting the outcomes, etc etc. And use them in really poor ways. The whole, "people change their minds about specialties" bit is one of those things. The people that change their minds about specialties change because of one of two things. #1 Ignorance about themselves or specialties or #2 The reality of trying to match competitive fields. There are different levels of ignorance. Personally, I didn't know anything about different specialties and would be on one extreme end of the spectrum. Consequently, I changed my specialty interests 5-6 times before applying integrated vascular. I found it hard to believe in medical school that anyone 'knew' what they wanted to do. In retrospect, yes, some of those people really shouldn't have been so certain, but others, it was obvious that they knew what they were interested in or what lifestyle they wanted or whatever because they knew themselves very well, this was particularly evident with the non-traditional students in my class.

Both of your posts are very well written and I think underscore very important points about this process, including that there is no one correct answer and there is a lot of situational variance.

I do want to re-emphasize one point though, and that's in regards to ignorance about self or specialties of incoming medical students, especially the latter. I say that as someone who entered med school on the opposite end of the spectrum as you with at least 100 hours experience in 5-7 different fields each (ortho, gen surg, FM, cards, EM, and PMR plus some experience in a few others). Even with a lot of medical experience through both volunteering and work, there were fields I had little to no experience with and I ended up in one of those fields despite being 95% sure I knew what my path would be. Even ignoring all the stats, I think the greater flexibility and options that come with an MD degree is something that shouldn't be underestimated when making these decisions. I also think it's something that's far too prevalent to not be a part of the discussion.
 
@DBC03 The point about the loan forgiveness for primary care is a good one and something I've given some thought to. I guess I'm just not completely familiar with exactly how prevalent such programs are. Knowing that there are those options out there would give me some peace of mind in the event I went the MD route.

@DokterMom Yeah, what I meant about my studying habits is basically that I'm not one of those people who can just attend class, reread their notes a time or two, and ace an exam. I have to read through information on my own to fill in any gaps from lecture, write information out as I go, and then review it numerous times to get it to really sink in. I've always done well in school, but it takes me a lot of work to do so. I have thought about how MD programs tend to have more resources to offer support to students who need it. GA-PCOM does have an office where struggling students can go for guidance as well as a staff psychologist, but it is undoubtedly true that the resources and support structure are more plentiful at Mercer.

@Stagg737 That's a good point about MD putting me in a better position to wind up in a location where I'd like to do my residency even though I would be attending school in a less desirable location. I do have some dreams about a particular location where I'd love to get to do my residency. Oddly enough, the reason I prefer PCOM's location over Mercer's is in part because PCOM is farther away from family haha. Going to Mercer would basically entail living where I've always lived, and I very much could use a change of scenery. But remaining near family could have its benefits too.

Thank you for all of the replies. I am sorry I don't have time to respond to everyone individually, but you all have given me a number of new things to consider as well as confirmed the relevance of some things that I had thought about but wasn't sure if they were valid considerations or imagined ones.

I'm going to reach out to Mercer to see if they are able to do anything to help make my decision a tad easier. I don't feel hopeful about the chances, but it can't hurt to ask.
 
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I would not be debt-free upon graduation. The scholarship covers tuition, not all other expenses. I am going to contact Mercer, but the thing about almost all of the scholarships they offer is they come with a commitment to serve in a rural area for several years. That's a big decision to make for my distant future when the DO scholarship comes with no such stipulation. Would it be better to call the financial aid office or send something in writing?

Call the admissions office not the FA office
 
Elite School (150k Debt) vs. State School (no debt)




@IlDestriero @SLC @getdown and any attending/resident reading this thread: what are your thoughts on the above quoted posts?

Looks like 2 folks who may not have had experience with debt before...I was sorta the same way in school; it’s easy to throw your hands up and say that school is just going to cost a big stack of money and there’s nothing you can do about it; but sometimes there are things you can do about it (the OP’s scenario for example).

But for example, I wouldn’t personally go into military service to avoid school debt. I’d rather owe money than owe time. But having been through school, knowing what I know now and with the experience I’ve gained; I’d absolutely take the cheaper school every time, unless I had some very specific, realistic, long-term career plans that wouldn’t be possible at the less expensive school.

Unfortunately, my school cost $300k and I’d like to help OP avoid the experience of being buried under that if at all possible. Especially given her stated career interests.
 
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4) Dedicated STEP 1 study time is very important because it largely determines your career path


This is very important. Until reading this thread, I didn’t know that PCOM and maybe other DO schools don’t have a several week break dedicated to Step 1 study.
 
That is not what I intended to imply. Rather, the fact that I am several years older than the average matriculant, combined with my gender, makes me very hesitant to do anything that will keep me in training until my 40s and then have such little personal time in a way I don't think I would worry about as much were I man. *shrug* I'm not the only woman to ever have these thoughts judging by several threads I've seen on the topic.

Totally understandable. Many female physicians plan on having children and as much as we’d like to believe that fathers and mothers are “the same” in regards to parenting, mothers still seem to be the dominant parents in regards to care, child-rearing decisions, etc. It naturally follows that such women would not want a specialty like neurosurgery that can require 60+ hour work weeks.
 
I'll play devil's advocate and say DO. I don't know your undergrad situation OP, but if I could stay debt-free for undergrad AND grad school, I'd have serious consideration for DO school. The DO's I've shadowed and worked with faced no discrimination in the work place for the letters behind his/her name. They were called "doctor" and let their work speak for themselves. Have great patient rapport and can see/handle a lot of patients in the day? They'll love you.

Just my $0.02; wherever you go, I hope it's the right fit.
 
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To summarize, there are four extremes with a spectrum in between with how things may go for OP:

A) OP goes MD and is grateful. They went with a specialty like Radiology and was glad that they were able to get the specialty they wanted without having to fight an uphill DO battle. The work is amazing and when they come home they feel so good and everyone knows it. Sure the job is tough, but since they love it so much, their life is just better and they make the lives around them better too.

B) OP goes MD and regrets all the debt. They knew they wanted primary care early and got into a residency program with 3 other DOs. The extra debt is just stacked on for worthless letters next to their name. ugh

C) OP goes DO and is grateful. Not only did they get the specialty they wanted, but they have very little debt at the start of their career. It is easy to start a family and not have to worry about paying for stuff for the baby and getting started. They love their work and come home every day satisfied. Everyone is happy that OP is happy. Positive vibes.

D) OP goes DO and regrets the degree. OP never realized they wanted to go into Radiology, and could not make the cut. OP is sure that if they had the exact same stats but were MD then it would have been a completely different story. OP regrets their decision every single day they show up to work in the specialty they got into. They feel their life finds meaning only in family and hobbies - the job is just for the money.

Personally I think D is the worst outcome possible. B is pretty bad but for me not nearly as bad. Only OP knows the pre-decision probability of their outcomes based on their personality and experiences. Many attendings here have said that B is probably the least bad way to go, and that A is probaby more likely to occur than you think. But C is probably pretty realistic depending on personal factors. D is the horror story, though there are many less bad scenarios that are like this.

My recommendation in most threads like these is 99% go with the money. But I can’t make a good recommendation here because I just don’t know enough about OP. Best of luck on your decision/journey.
 
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@DBC03 The point about the loan forgiveness for primary care is a good one and something I've given some thought to. I guess I'm just not completely familiar with exactly how prevalent such programs are. Knowing that there are those options out there would give me some peace of mind in the event I went the MD route.

@DokterMom Yeah, what I meant about my studying habits is basically that I'm not one of those people who can just attend class, reread their notes a time or two, and ace an exam. I have to read through information on my own to fill in any gaps from lecture, write information out as I go, and then review it numerous times to get it to really sink in. I've always done well in school, but it takes me a lot of work to do so. I have thought about how MD programs tend to have more resources to offer support to students who need it. GA-PCOM does have an office where struggling students can go for guidance as well as a staff psychologist, but it is undoubtedly true that the resources and support structure are more plentiful at Mercer.

@Stagg737 That's a good point about MD putting me in a better position to wind up in a location where I'd like to do my residency even though I would be attending school in a less desirable location. I do have some dreams about a particular location where I'd love to get to do my residency. Oddly enough, the reason I prefer PCOM's location over Mercer's is in part because PCOM is farther away from family haha. Going to Mercer would basically entail living where I've always lived, and I very much could use a change of scenery. But remaining near family could have its benefits too.

Thank you for all of the replies. I am sorry I don't have time to respond to everyone individually, but you all have given me a number of new things to consider as well as confirmed the relevance of some things that I had thought about but wasn't sure if they were valid considerations or imagined ones.

I'm going to reach out to Mercer to see if they are able to do anything to help make my decision a tad easier. I don't feel hopeful about the chances, but it can't hurt to ask.

I'm pretty sure most students have to do that to do well, very few pre meds can actually just skim over class notes and do well. That was actually a major mistake I made my freshman year of college when it came to studying. I really don't see that as a handicap- if anything, having disciplined study habits ( it doesn't seem like you struggle more than most students) are in a better place for medical school?

I'm surprised to learn MD schools have more resources for struggling students, it would seem like DO programs would.
 
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DO programs could probably use them more, and Caribbean far more so. Of course, Caribbean has the least support.

I'd also suspect the LCME is a little more strict about graduation rates than the AOA.
 
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I'm surprised to learn MD schools have more resources for struggling students, it would seem like DO programs would.

It’s entirely school dependent and isn’t something I would attribute to DO schools in general.
 
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I'm pretty sure most students have to do that to do well, very few pre meds can actually just skim over class notes and do well. That was actually a major mistake I made my freshman year of college when it came to studying. I really don't see that as a handicap- if anything, having disciplined study habits ( it doesn't seem like you struggle more than most students) are in a better place for medical school?

I'm surprised to learn MD schools have more resources for struggling students, it would seem like DO
Based upon posts and PMs from multiple struggling DO and MD students here on SDN, my take on this is that the amount of help given a struggling student, and resources available, are very much school specific.

I get messages from some people that make me wonder "what penal colony of a med school is this???"

My Dean's philosophy is "once we accept you, we'll do everything in out power to get to you to graduation".
 
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Mercer financial aid office called me and said they can't do anything and pretty much all of their scholarships for the year have been awarded lol. At this point, I'm just wishing MCG, which has much lower tuition, would accept me off the waitlist, but I interviewed all the way back in September, so not holding my breath.
 
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Oddly enough, the reason I prefer PCOM's location over Mercer's is in part because PCOM is farther away from family haha. Going to Mercer would basically entail living where I've always lived, and I very much could use a change of scenery. But remaining near family could have its benefits too.

I understand where you're coming from, but unless your family is overbearing to the point that it's hard to function or get stuff done when you're in the same city OR you just don't get along with them, then the support you'll get from them will likely be much more important that you'd guess. Medical school is often brutal and having people there that you can rely on can really help get you through tough times. Idk what your situation is, but I wouldn't usually consider having family nearby to be a negative.
 
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