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Do students ever start DO school then leave for an MD school that pulls them off the WL?

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michpremed

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I am just curious if this ever happens and how do schools cope with a student leaving right after they start? Do they refill the seat and try and have a student catch up or just have to continue with an empty seat in the class? Is this a common occurrence?
 

Allosteopath

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Yes this does happen. Usually when a full refund is still available, I imagine. You lose your deposit.
 
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Goro

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I am just curious if this ever happens and how do schools cope with a student leaving right after they start? Do they refill the seat and try and have a student catch up or just have to continue with an empty seat in the class? Is this a common occurrence?
Happens all the time at my school. Local leave for the state MD school when the get The Call.

If this happen during orientation week, we have a panel of alternates, who serve the same function as those on a jury. If someone leaves, they get a seat. If not, they enter in the next year's class.

I don't know if MD schools do this, but the COMs are allowed some attrition seats, so my school, for example, which has ~100 students, actually is allowed to matriculate, say, 107, to account for those 7-ish who decide to go elsewhere.
 
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michpremed

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Happens all the time at my school. Local leave for the state MD school when the get The Call.

If this happen during orientation week, we have a panel of alternates, who serve the same function as those on a jury. If someone leaves, they get a seat. If not, they enter in the next year's class.

I don't know if MD schools do this, but the COMs are allowed some attrition seats, so my school, for example, which has ~100 students, actually is allowed to matriculate, say, 107, to account for those 7-ish who decide to go elsewhere.
How do you feel about these students that leave? Do you have any negative feelings towards them leaving or understand where they are coming from? I am just curious from an adcom persepctive.
 

Goro

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How do you feel about these students that leave? Do you have any negative feelings towards them leaving or understand where they are coming from? I am just curious from an adcom persepctive.
No ill will. I understand where they're mindset is. More doors are open to them, and we'd rather not have self-hating DOs who felt that they had to "settle for the DO degree", and who then make the lives of my DO colleagues miserable in labs.
 
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michpremed

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No ill will. I understand where they're mindset is. More doors are open to them, and we'd rather not have self-hating DOs who felt that they had to "settle for the DO degree", and who then make the lives of my DO colleagues miserable in labs.
That's a good way to put it. Thank you for your insight on this.
 
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KnightDoc

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Happens all the time at my school. Local leave for the state MD school when the get The Call.

If this happen during orientation week, we have a panel of alternates, who serve the same function as those on a jury. If someone leaves, they get a seat. If not, they enter in the next year's class.

I don't know if MD schools do this, but the COMs are allowed some attrition seats, so my school, for example, which has ~100 students, actually is allowed to matriculate, say, 107, to account for those 7-ish who decide to go elsewhere.
On a related note, do you happen to know if poaching between MD schools after orientation starts is a thing, or if the CTE process has actually been effective in preventing it?
 

gyngyn

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    On a related note, do you happen to know if poaching between MD schools after orientation starts is a thing, or if the CTE process has actually been effective in preventing it?
    It still goes on (a lot) when the student is only PTE.
    It goes on a little after CTE.
     
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    gonnif

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    Happens all the time at my school. Local leave for the state MD school when the get The Call.

    If this happen during orientation week, we have a panel of alternates, who serve the same function as those on a jury. If someone lseaves, they get a seat. If not, they enter in the next year's class.

    I don't know if MD schools do this, but the COMs are allowed some attrition seats, so my school, for example, which has ~100 students, actually is allowed to matriculate, say, 107, to account for those 7-ish who decide to go elsewhere.

    I dont know the LCME regulations on this but certainly in my experience MD schools do thi
     

    KnightDoc

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    It still goes on (a lot) when the student is only PTE.
    It goes on a little after CTE.
    Thanks. I was asking specifically about after school starts, whether or not it just wasn't done between the schools, and whether CTE was effective in stopping it (i.e., do schools actually enforce the prohibition against remaining on WLs after CTE). If it happens at all after CTE, then at least some schools are not enforcing! Wouldn't it be great if we could get a list??? :)
     

    gyngyn

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    There is no law (or rule) against accepting students after school starts. There are only guidelines.
    The degree to which schools choose to enforce AAMC guidelines (or their own, for that matter) is unknown.
    I can tell you that students do stay on wailists after CTE.
    The odds of you getting any such list are vanishingly small.
     
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    Mr.Smile12

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    I don't know if MD schools do this, but the COMs are allowed some attrition seats, so my school, for example, which has ~100 students, actually is allowed to matriculate, say, 107, to account for those 7-ish who decide to go elsewhere.
    I suspect this is common (since it happens at every undergrad program and every airplane flight where there's a fraction of overbooking) because it's a fiscal issue with the university (LCME doesn't really have any say in this). You can tell by the small fluctuation in incoming class sizes that there's definitely a floor with a buffer at most schools used to seeing the pattern. And overall medical schools do tend to lose money when it comes to educational programs so a few extra seats that can get a little more money for programs or scholarships is part of the enrollment management process.
     
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    KnightDoc

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    I suspect this is common (since it happens at every undergrad program and every airplane flight where there's a fraction of overbooking) because it's a fiscal issue with the university (LCME doesn't really have any say in this). You can tell by the small fluctuation in incoming class sizes that there's definitely a floor with a buffer at most schools used to seeing the pattern. And overall medical schools do tend to lose money when it comes to educational programs so a few extra seats that can get a little more money for programs or scholarships is part of the enrollment management process.
    Yes, but I was under the impression that every single seat was precious, and schools didn't allow any of them to go to waste, so there is no "buffer." By the way, your airplane analogy is terrible because airplanes don't take off with a couple of extra people standing in the aisle -- they get bumped. :) That also happens when schools are over enrolled and they have to pay people to defer for a year. Schools could lose people and maybe enroll less than capacity (which is what I thought they try to avoid at all costs!), so there is no floor, but there is a ceiling, like on an airplane!!!

    In any case, if they poach from each other after school starts, and people stay on WLs after the CTE date, how well does this convoluted system AAMC cooked up for us really work?? :)
     

    Goro

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    Yes, but I was under the impression that every single seat was precious, and schools didn't allow any of them to go to waste, so there is no "buffer." By the way, your airplane analogy is terrible because airplanes don't take off with a couple of extra people standing in the aisle -- they get bumped. :) That also happens when schools are over enrolled and they have to pay people to defer for a year. Schools could lose people and maybe enroll less than capacity (which is what I thought they try to avoid at all costs!), so there is no floor, but there is a ceiling, like on an airplane!!!

    In any case, if they poach from each other after school starts, and people stay on WLs after the CTE date, how well does this convoluted system AAMC cooked up for us really work?? :)
    Seats don't go to waste; there will always be a body to fill them.

    How the Admissions deans manage to pull this off year after year without actually overbooking the Class is a Dark Art.
     
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    KnightDoc

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    Seats don't go to waste; there will always be a body to fill them.

    How the Admissions deans manage to pull this off year after year without actually overbooking the Class is a Dark Art.
    I'm assuming in the MD world it's the source of those stories about people being called off the WL the week classes started. I'm just a little surprised that, after classes begin, schools are still willing to poach from another school and cause someone to break a CTE commitment when they can just take someone from the WL that is not CTE somewhere else. So much for the ethical standard they expect their students to uphold. :)
     
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    Mr.Smile12

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    I'm assuming in the MD world it's the source of those stories about people being called off the WL the week classes started. I'm just a little surprised that, after classes begin, schools are still willing to poach from another school and cause someone to break a CTE commitment when they can just take someone from the WL that is not CTE somewhere else. So much for the ethical standard they expect their students to uphold. :)
    Schools don't actively poach if a student is not willing to be. No I don't think it's right but if you have a university board of trustees expecting your dean to fill the class, you do what you can.

    Sent from my SM-N960U using SDN mobile
     

    KnightDoc

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    Schools don't actively poach if a student is not willing to be. No I don't think it's right but if you have a university board of trustees expecting your dean to fill the class, you do what you can.

    Sent from my SM-N960U using SDN mobile
    Fine, but that doesn't address the question. Deans have access to a tool that tells them which WL candidates have CTEd elsewhere and which have not. All schools expect their CTE candidates to honor their commitments and enroll. A student's willingness to be poached is neither here nor there.

    The question is how schools have the nerve to try to compel candidates to play by arbitrary rules set by the schools when the schools are perfectly willing to break them if it means poaching a slightly marginally better student away from another school after classes have begun than calling someone sitting at home desperately waiting for a call.

    I understand deans "doing what they can," but they can call a candidate who hasn't CTEd elsewhere and still fill the class.
     

    Goro

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    Fine, but that doesn't address the question. Deans have access to a tool that tells them which WL candidates have CTEd elsewhere and which have not. All schools expect their CTE candidates to honor their commitments and enroll. A student's willingness to be poached is neither here nor there.

    The question is how schools have the nerve to try to compel candidates to play by arbitrary rules set by the schools when the schools are perfectly willing to break them if it means poaching a slightly marginally better student away from another school after classes have begun than calling someone sitting at home desperately waiting for a call.

    I understand deans "doing what they can," but they can call a candidate who hasn't CTEd elsewhere and still fill the class.
    The CTE is not a mandatory tool, just a suggestion. Each school decides whether to use it.

    Have you considered that the poaching might give someone a chance to be closer to family, because wait list pulling typically involves geographic considerations. You're also making the assumption that poaching is a common event. We know that it happens, that's all.
     
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    KnightDoc

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    The CTE is not a mandatory tool, just a suggestion. Each school decides whether to use it.

    Have you considered that the poaching might give someone a chance to be closer to family, because wait list pulling typically involves geographic considerations. You're also making the assumption that poaching is a common event. We know that it happens, that's all.
    Since use of the AMCAS CYMS tool is not mandated by AAMC, but rather, is governed by each individual school's procedures and requirements, does anyone know which, if any, MD schools do not require admitted students to make a PTE/CTE election in order to reserve their place in the class?
    Poaching is always good for the student, since the student always has the option whether or not to allow him or herself to be poached. And, no, I'm not assuming it's common at all. I'm just surprised that any holier than thou school that would immediately rescind an acceptance if a deadline is not met, or would demand a decision without providing price transparency, would screw over a peer institution and cause a student to break a "commitment to enroll."

    Since it happens, schools should also accept that students holding multiple As happens after 4/30, and students staying on WLs past the CTE date happens! :)
     

    Goro

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    Poaching is always good for the student, since the student always has the option whether or not to allow him or herself to be poached. And, no, I'm not assuming it's common at all. I'm just surprised that any holier than thou school that would immediately rescind an acceptance if a deadline is not met, or would demand a decision without providing price transparency, would screw over a peer institution and cause a student to break a "commitment to enroll."

    Since it happens, schools should also accept that students holding multiple As happens after 4/30, and students staying on WLs past the CTE date happens! :)
    You're acting like these med schools are experimenting on humans, or are eating babies. Chill already.
     
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    KnightDoc

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    You're acting like these med schools are experimenting on humans, or are eating babies. Chill already.
    But they are :) -- they set up rules to restrict choice and freedom of movement of future med students (under threatened rescission of admission), while, apparently, poaching each other when it is in their selfish interest to do so.
     
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