DO students, what makes Osteopathic schools "holistic" ?

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ayjaystudent said:
DO students, what makes Osteopathic schools "holistic" ?
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Holism refers to the DOs learning to treat the whole patient, not just the disease.

At my MD school we have to take classes like these-
Patient Reductionism
Treating the Disease

I haven't seen these as a part of a DO curriculum.
 
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Do keep in mind that it is insulting to our MD colleagues to imply that their training is not holistic. The term may simply be a historical artifact left over from 100 years ago. At this point in time, I'd like to see some data showing that DO > MD in holistic approaches to practicing Medicine.


ayjaystudent said:
DO students, what makes Osteopathic schools "holistic" ?
Click to expand...
 
There's nothing more holistic about DO schools than MD schools. The only difference is that we have to take OMM for the first 2 years. In clinical years, you'll likely be put under with an MD preceptor and/or MD residents. The term "holistic" is used as a marketing strategy by DO schools to differentiate themselves from their counterpart. It's merely an imprecise scheme to lure some pre-meds as MD students also learn to treat the whole patient, i.e. look at what the 2nd poster has to say.
 
There is a lot of cynicism on this topic (often for good reason). I think there actually is a major difference between doctors that treat people whole and those who treat according to modern western reductionism, but that distinction isn't frequently DO vs MD. Most of modern medical education promotes this notion so to avoid treating people as an accumulation of organs requires intentional thought and purpose in what you do. The best doctors do this
 
If "holistic" you mean placing emphasis on the patient as an individual, how all factors (psychosocial, socioeconomic, etc.) may impact their treatment and compliance, then yes I do see holistic elements stressed in my DO curriculum. If holistic you mean trying therapies that haven't been shown to work or be safe ("complementary"), then yes I see elements of this in OMM. Increasingly, it sounds like MD curriculums are incorporating both definitions.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
The DO admissions process is more holistic from my experience. That's about it.
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+1 the DO admissions process tends to try to seek more than high grades at a higher rate than MD schools do and to consider turnarounds more holistically (shown by the grade replacement policy). The actual training is really quite identical other than omm
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
The DO admissions process is more holistic from my experience. That's about it.
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It goes beyond admissions, into residency and beyond. Month long audition rotations are usually required in the DO world to be considered for residency. This process selects for people who work well with others. People need to know you and in the small DO world, they will. Either personally or word of mouth. MDs do not require audition rotations and select residents based mostly on test scores, research, name of med school, name of letter writer, and an interview. As long as they meet those few criteria, any sociopathic, narcissistic, backstabbing A hole will easily get through the cracks. You'll notice the difference when you rotate through MD hospitals.

DOs have more life experience and are more sociable as well, as reflected in their academic records that kept them out of MD schools. Put MD students who are strangers in a room and you can hear a pin drop but a party would probably break out in a roomful of DO students and some will end up married.
 
Candidate2017 said:
It goes beyond admissions, into residency and beyond. Month long audition rotations are usually required in the DO world to be considered for residency. This process selects for people who work well with others. People need to know you and in the small DO world, they will. Either personally or word of mouth. MDs do not require audition rotations and select residents based mostly on test scores, research, name of med school, name of letter writer, and an interview. As long as they meet those few criteria, any sociopathic, narcissistic, backstabbing A hole will easily get through the cracks. You'll notice the difference when you rotate through MD hospitals.

DOs have more life experience and are more sociable as well, as reflected in their academic records that kept them out of MD schools. Put MD students who are strangers in a room and you can hear a pin drop but a party would probably break out in a roomful of DO students and some will end up married.
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Lol.
 
Candidate2017 said:
It goes beyond admissions, into residency and beyond. Month long audition rotations are usually required in the DO world to be considered for residency. This process selects for people who work well with others. People need to know you and in the small DO world, they will. Either personally or word of mouth. MDs do not require audition rotations and select residents based mostly on test scores, research, name of med school, name of letter writer, and an interview. As long as they meet those few criteria, any sociopathic, narcissistic, backstabbing A hole will easily get through the cracks. You'll notice the difference when you rotate through MD hospitals.

DOs have more life experience and are more sociable as well, as reflected in their academic records that kept them out of MD schools. Put MD students who are strangers in a room and you can hear a pin drop but a party would probably break out in a roomful of DO students and some will end up married.
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Impressive trolling
 
Candidate2017 said:
It goes beyond admissions, into residency and beyond. Month long audition rotations are usually required in the DO world to be considered for residency. This process selects for people who work well with others. People need to know you and in the small DO world, they will. Either personally or word of mouth. MDs do not require audition rotations and select residents based mostly on test scores, research, name of med school, name of letter writer, and an interview. As long as they meet those few criteria, any sociopathic, narcissistic, backstabbing A hole will easily get through the cracks. You'll notice the difference when you rotate through MD hospitals.

DOs have more life experience and are more sociable as well, as reflected in their academic records that kept them out of MD schools. Put MD students who are strangers in a room and you can hear a pin drop but a party would probably break out in a roomful of DO students and some will end up married.
Click to expand...
2/10 :troll::troll::troll:
 
Candidate2017 said:
It goes beyond admissions, into residency and beyond. Month long audition rotations are usually required in the DO world to be considered for residency. This process selects for people who work well with others. People need to know you and in the small DO world, they will. Either personally or word of mouth. MDs do not require audition rotations and select residents based mostly on test scores, research, name of med school, name of letter writer, and an interview. As long as they meet those few criteria, any sociopathic, narcissistic, backstabbing A hole will easily get through the cracks. You'll notice the difference when you rotate through MD hospitals.

DOs have more life experience and are more sociable as well, as reflected in their academic records that kept them out of MD schools. Put MD students who are strangers in a room and you can hear a pin drop but a party would probably break out in a roomful of DO students and some will end up married.
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Bro, it's "puff, puff, PASS." I guess it's different where you're from.
 
FourniersGreenGang said:
+1 the DO admissions process tends to try to seek more than high grades at a higher rate than MD schools do and to consider turnarounds more holistically (shown by the grade replacement policy). The actual training is really quite identical other than omm
Click to expand...

I believed this until I spoke with a classmate who was rejected from an older DO school. He had a GPA somewhat above the mean for the class due to the grade replacement policy but was rejected from that school. He was told the reason for his rejection was because there were students with the same GPA and didn't have any retakes. Now I am left skeptical about this point, especially for certain older schools who have a ton of extremely qualified applicants.
 
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IslandStyle808 said:
I believed this until I spoke with a classmate who was rejected from an older DO school. He had a GPA somewhat above the mean for the class due to the grade replacement policy but was rejected from that school. He was told the reason for his rejection was because there were students with the same GPA and didn't have any retakes. Now I am left skeptical about this point, especially for certain older schools who have a ton of extremely qualified applicants.
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It may vary on a school to school basis but I go to an oooolllllld school and it seemed to work for me.
 
Candidate2017 said:
It goes beyond admissions, into residency and beyond. Month long audition rotations are usually required in the DO world to be considered for residency. This process selects for people who work well with others. People need to know you and in the small DO world, they will. Either personally or word of mouth. MDs do not require audition rotations and select residents based mostly on test scores, research, name of med school, name of letter writer, and an interview. As long as they meet those few criteria, any sociopathic, narcissistic, backstabbing A hole will easily get through the cracks. You'll notice the difference when you rotate through MD hospitals.

DOs have more life experience and are more sociable as well, as reflected in their academic records that kept them out of MD schools. Put MD students who are strangers in a room and you can hear a pin drop but a party would probably break out in a roomful of DO students and some will end up married.
Click to expand...

This post is dripping with resentment.

BTW this is not a troll post. This person means what he wrote 100% and isn't just doing it to rile people up. This isn't the first time we've heard the "MDs are sociopaths" smear either.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
 
FourniersGreenGang said:
+1 the DO admissions process tends to try to seek more than high grades at a higher rate than MD schools do and to consider turnarounds more holistically (shown by the grade replacement policy). The actual training is really quite identical other than omm
Click to expand...
Tbf that's mostly because applicants with stats to get into md schools will choose them over any do school every time.
 
MeatTornado said:
This post is dripping with resentment.

BTW this is not a troll post. This person means what he wrote 100% and isn't just doing it to rile people up. This isn't the first time we've heard the "MDs are sociopaths" smear either.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
Click to expand...

He's been posting this on psych a lot. I mean not that I don't think auditions aren't a good idea ( I wish they were more accepted in the ACGME world especially for people who really want to match in a particular area), I do think that for many it is simply an unreasonable requirement.
 
NotYou20 said:
Tbf that's mostly because applicants with stats to get into md schools will choose them over any do school every time.
Click to expand...

Oh definitely, but I was mainly talking within about the DO applicant pool. Even in that demographic DO schools will take someone with a 3.3/27 over someone with a 3.6/29 sometimes if they like 3.3 applicant's ECs or they have a good interview, or they got the schools mission better.
 
Drrrrrr. Celty said:
He's been posting this on psych a lot. I mean not that I don't think auditions aren't a good idea ( I wish they were more accepted in the ACGME world especially for people who really want to match in a particular area), I do think that for many it is simply an unreasonable requirement.
Click to expand...

Since you brought this up I will respond to the original point about auditions. The reason they are "required" in the DO world is because it would be imprudent for a residency program director to take the assessment of a (typically) unknown preceptor regarding the student's clinical abilities (resulting in the disaster that comes with an unknown commodity) whereas at MD schools letters of recommendation are usually from professional clinician educators with an objective assessment provided by the academic chair of the department to which you are applying. These folks have a reputation to protect and their assessment carries a lot of weight because they know what they're talking about. @Candidate2017 makes it sound like they look at LOR writer's name and awe-struck which is ridiculous. These folks are respected educators in the field for a reason.
 
MeatTornado said:
This post is dripping with resentment.

BTW this is not a troll post. This person means what he wrote 100% and isn't just doing it to rile people up. This isn't the first time we've heard the "MDs are sociopaths" smear either.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
Click to expand...

I'm not smearing MDs, total respect to them. I'm only pointing out it's easier for a sociopath to slip through a residency selection process that is weighted towards numbers and ability to charm people over a few 30 minute interviews. Ted Bundy would be ranked highly at every program he interviewed as long as he had ballpark numbers. Keeping appearances up during a monthlong audition rotation is harder. I could be a screw up and blacklisted at every osteopathic program I auditioned at and still be able to charm every allopathic program that judges me based only on test scores and an interview. My original point is that the holistic aspect extends beyond med school applications.

I was also pointing out that DOs and MDs are different beasts. The average DO student is slightly older, with a lower GPA or had GPA replacement, lower MCAT, lower socioeconomic background, and sometimes had a prior career as an EMT or nurse. The average MD student is slightly younger, excellent GPA, excellent MCAT, higher socioeconomic background, higher probability of physician parents, and with good research experience. Would be silly if these two groups weren't different. Each has their strengths and weaknesses. Anyone who rotates through an osteopathic and an allopathic hospital will notice differences.
 
MeatTornado said:
Since you brought this up I will respond to the original point about auditions. The reason they are "required" in the DO world is because it would be imprudent for a residency program director to take the assessment of a (typically) unknown preceptor regarding the student's clinical abilities (resulting in the disaster that comes with an unknown commodity) whereas at MD schools letters of recommendation are usually from professional clinician educators with an objective assessment provided by the academic chair of the department to which you are applying. These folks have a reputation to protect and their assessment carries a lot of weight because they know what they're talking about. @Candidate2017 makes it sound like they look at LOR writer's name and awe-struck which is ridiculous. These folks are respected educators in the field for a reason.
Click to expand...


Of course this is true indeed. Some DO school rotations simply aren't backed up. Others though are to some extent, obviously it's rare that a DO will get a LOR from a big name from their program, but they do exist clearly.

But regardless, I do think it would be nice to have more opportunities to be able to lock yourself into particular residency programs on the ACGME side. Especially in these days when even Psych's application amount is going up an average of 5 per year. I mean am I really going to be expected to apply to 50 spots when I mainly want to go to 5 or 6 of them?
 
Candidate2017 said:
I'm not smearing MDs, total respect to them. I'm only pointing out it's easier for a sociopath to slip through a residency selection process that is weighted towards numbers and ability to charm people over a few 30 minute interviews. Ted Bundy would be ranked highly at every program he interviewed as long as he had ballpark numbers. Keeping appearances up during a monthlong audition rotation is harder. I could be a screw up and blacklisted at every osteopathic program I auditioned at and still be able to charm every allopathic program that judges me based only on test scores and an interview. My original point is that the holistic aspect extends beyond med school applications.

I was also pointing out that DOs and MDs are different beasts. The average DO student is slightly older, with a lower GPA or had GPA replacement, lower MCAT, lower socioeconomic background, and sometimes had a prior career as an EMT or nurse. The average MD student is slightly younger, excellent GPA, excellent MCAT, higher socioeconomic background, higher probability of physician parents, and with good research experience. Would be silly if these two groups weren't different. Each has their strengths and weaknesses. Anyone who rotates through an osteopathic and an allopathic hospital will notice differences.
Click to expand...

Admittedly the differences are almost entirely gone in the cases of established urban schools. The majority of my class is out of college, almost half have at least one physician parent, etc.

I'm doubtful that rotating at Des Peres or Ohio Med is going to provide you with a different perspective than say, at a shared site like Grandview or Carilton or some of VCU's programs.
 
Drrrrrr. Celty said:
He's been posting this on psych a lot. I mean not that I don't think auditions aren't a good idea ( I wish they were more accepted in the ACGME world especially for people who really want to match in a particular area), I do think that for many it is simply an unreasonable requirement.
Click to expand...

It's a good, reasonable idea for both parties. Every program puts its best foot forward on interview day and hides its warts. Doing a monthlong audition will help you see what daily life is really like at a program and help you decide whether to rank a program higher or lower. Living for a month in an area also helps you decide whether you can put up with it for 3 to 5 years.
 
That might have been a very polite spin of saying "your interview sucked".

IslandStyle808 said:
I believed this until I spoke with a classmate who was rejected from an older DO school. He had a GPA somewhat above the mean for the class due to the grade replacement policy but was rejected from that school. He was told the reason for his rejection was because there were students with the same GPA and didn't have any retakes. Now I am left skeptical about this point, especially for certain older schools who have a ton of extremely qualified applicants.
Click to expand...
 
IslandStyle808 said:
I believed this until I spoke with a classmate who was rejected from an older DO school. He had a GPA somewhat above the mean for the class due to the grade replacement policy but was rejected from that school. He was told the reason for his rejection was because there were students with the same GPA and didn't have any retakes. Now I am left skeptical about this point, especially for certain older schools who have a ton of extremely qualified applicants.
Click to expand...
How bad are we talking? If I saw someone that 10 years ago had some bad grades and did 6-8 replacements, no worries. If I saw a 23 year old that took every other class that mattered 2-3 times, I'd also be skeptical.
 
Drrrrrr. Celty said:
He's been posting this on psych a lot. I mean not that I don't think auditions aren't a good idea ( I wish they were more accepted in the ACGME world especially for people who really want to match in a particular area), I do think that for many it is simply an unreasonable requirement.
Click to expand...

This is news to me. So what do MDs do during their 4th year instead of audition rotations?
 
ParallelLines said:
This is news to me. So what do MDs do during their 4th year instead of audition rotations?
Click to expand...

Whatever they want mainly. Plenty do travel to other hospitals, but that my not be due to the need to audition though.
 
ParallelLines said:
This is news to me. So what do MDs do during their 4th year instead of audition rotations?
Click to expand...
There are fields where audition rotations are essentially a requirement to match for MD students. Others also do them if they want to demonstrate strong interest in a particular program or region. It's not some rare exception like this thread would lead you to believe.
 
mcloaf said:
There are fields where audition rotations are essentially a requirement to match for MD students. Others also do them if they want to demonstrate strong interest in a particular program or region. It's not some rare exception like this thread would lead you to believe.
Click to expand...

Yeah lol I figured they weren't just sitting around on their asses. Gotta make use of that tuition money
 
ParallelLines said:
This is news to me. So what do MDs do during their 4th year instead of audition rotations?
Click to expand...
Sub I. Required electives like EM, outpatient IM, outpatient Surgery. Genuine electives in whatever.

I am pursuing psych now, and was told by my department and student interest group that away rotations are actively discouraged. I already have the grades, LORs, and the school name. An away rotation is only a chance to fail on a new EMR.

I can't vouch for other MD specialties though. I am pretty sure EM requires 4th year aways.
 
sazerac said:
Sub I. Required electives like EM, outpatient IM, outpatient Surgery. Genuine electives in whatever.

I am pursuing psych now, and was told by my department and student interest group that away rotations are actively discouraged. I already have the grades, LORs, and the school name. An away rotation is only a chance to fail on a new EMR.

I can't vouch for other MD specialties though. I am pretty sure EM requires 4th year aways.
Click to expand...

The same is essentially true for IM. Aways are too high risk with very questionable reward.
I think EM is special because of the SLOE.
 
The schools themselves are not "holistic". They are schools. They are there to make money off of us, and get us into residency.

The "holistic" spiel is up to the student.

It's simple.

The DO degree is MD classes plus a few hunderd hours of OPP tacked on.

We get less time for actual important classwork and studying that material along with board prep and research and spend it on OPP instead... cause we like to treat people with hands, and the nutjobs of the profession think you can treat absolutely everything with moving lymph around and that the sutures in your cranium can move (yeah... chew on that for a sec).

Go along with it.

In reality... an overwhelming majority of DOs do not use OPP.

The "holistic" crap is something you say to get an interview.

Many pre-meds are catching on so you gotta have a better answer nowadays.
 
Candidate2017 said:
It goes beyond admissions, into residency and beyond. Month long audition rotations are usually required in the DO world to be considered for residency. This process selects for people who work well with others. People need to know you and in the small DO world, they will. Either personally or word of mouth. MDs do not require audition rotations and select residents based mostly on test scores, research, name of med school, name of letter writer, and an interview. As long as they meet those few criteria, any sociopathic, narcissistic, backstabbing A hole will easily get through the cracks. You'll notice the difference when you rotate through MD hospitals.

DOs have more life experience and are more sociable as well, as reflected in their academic records that kept them out of MD schools. Put MD students who are strangers in a room and you can hear a pin drop but a party would probably break out in a roomful of DO students and some will end up married.
Click to expand...

This is why we can't have nice things
 
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FourniersGreenGang said:
+1 the DO admissions process tends to try to seek more than high grades at a higher rate than MD schools do and to consider turnarounds more holistically (shown by the grade replacement policy). The actual training is really quite identical other than omm
Click to expand...

Yes. Exactly this.

If it weren't for DO, I'd be in the Caribbean taking my chances.

God bless the DO profession and the admissions committee that allowed this lucky son of a gun in!
 
Candidate2017 said:
It goes beyond admissions, into residency and beyond. Month long audition rotations are usually required in the DO world to be considered for residency. This process selects for people who work well with others. People need to know you and in the small DO world, they will. Either personally or word of mouth. MDs do not require audition rotations and select residents based mostly on test scores, research, name of med school, name of letter writer, and an interview. As long as they meet those few criteria, any sociopathic, narcissistic, backstabbing A hole will easily get through the cracks. You'll notice the difference when you rotate through MD hospitals.

DOs have more life experience and are more sociable as well, as reflected in their academic records that kept them out of MD schools. Put MD students who are strangers in a room and you can hear a pin drop but a party would probably break out in a roomful of DO students and some will end up married.
Click to expand...

I had a hearty laugh, I like this guy.
 
sazerac said:
Holism refers to the DOs learning to treat the whole patient, not just the disease.

At my MD school we have to take classes like these-
Patient Reductionism
Treating the Disease

I haven't seen these as a part of a DO curriculum.
Click to expand...
lawlll
 
Holistic BS might have been true back in 1800s when anyone claiming to be a doc was giving arsenic but now it's just COCAs way of opening more DO school


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
 
This is what makes DO schools holistic.

1. Being told life is hard and that you have to deal with your own personal challenges. The school won't provide any support for them.
2. Not being given many opportunities outside of the classroom outside of some stupid BS volunteering (mandatory)
3. An unequal distribution of rotations. Some students getting top notch rotations whilst others are not getting good experiences at all.
4. Paying an insane amount of tuition third year but having preceptors tell you they aren't getting renumerated for spending time with you, leading to many just not giving AF at all (or for other schools, paying third year tuition but having to make their own schedules)
5. Paying an insane amount of tuition fourth year but having to make your own schedule
* Note: 5 includes paying whatever VSAS fees are associated for that school out of pocket
 
Mad Jack said:
Nothing. MD schools have caught up to us largely in that regard.
Click to expand...


I agree. One of the distinctions the osteopathic profession professes is that it is holistic. However, other professionals are holistic. It is not a discriminating attribute. MDs, NDs, DCs, DPMs are taught to look at the entire patient. The term "OMT" is distinctive but other professionals manipulate (MDs, DCs, NDs, DPTs, etc.). (MDs can learn manipulation in post-graduate courses.) Manipulation alone is not distinctive for DOs.

The DO emphasis on family medicine (and less emphasis on research) does separate us from MDs.

Its all good. There is room for all of us in the helping professions.
 
sazerac said:
Apparently "holistic" now means that they take into account the Whole Transcript of a medical school applicant, not just the most recent attempt at each each class.
Click to expand...
Vo1ee.gif
 
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