DO vs. St. George's University

[Bacchus]

i didn't bother to read the article, but how is that unique to foreign schools? look at tulane and galveston. they've been hit hard too.

The article may mention natural disaster but it focuses on a lot more than that.

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[OldBlue]

The article may mention natural disaster but it focuses on a lot more than that.

oh ok thanks for the heads up. maybe i'll read it tomorrow. i'm way too tired right now haha.

 

[Law2Doc]

i think there is somewhat of a distinction that needs to be made with caribbean schools because some of the numbers getting thrown around here are NOT those relevant to st. george's. saying "caribbean schools do x,y,z" is much different than saying "SGU does xyz." this thread is specific to SGU, so leave all other caribean generalizations at the door people.

if those are your ONLY two options, study hard...you'll be fine either way. if you want to practice abroad, consider that DO will limit you.

Sort of. While those who actually make it to fourth year at SGU do much better than the average caribbean school, all offshore schools, including SGU have significantly higher attrition than their US counterparts. Meaning they achieve better results at the end by eliminating the harder cases earlier on. So attending any offshore school means a lot less than 40% chance of becoming a doctor, but if you do graduate from a school like SGU, you probably have a better than 40% chance of becoming a doctor. By contrast, other offshore venues probably have a less than 40% chance of success at both stages. So yeah, if you HAVE to go caribbean, you want to go to a place like SGU. But you'd always rather be in a position to not have to go caribbean, if your goal is to practice in the US. This is a second chance path to be a physician -- it should never be the first choice path. Caribbean is a harder path, with fewer rewards.
It also should be noted that as US schools increase their ranks and new US schools open up, while residency slots stand pat, the percentage of getting a slot coming from a non US school will go down each year. So starting in a year, you will likely see offshore folks competing for fewer spots. SGU might still do better than the pack, but getting more of a smaller pie may still be less. It also should be noted that if you want to get into something other than primary care, a caribbean path doesn't give you very good odds. So it is really a path to become "a doctor", not a specialist. Everyone knows one or two exceptions, but by and large the offshore path is one that leads to primary care, if you are lucky and really work for it, and back to the drawing board with a worthless MD if you aren't.

 

[cpants]

If you haven't been exposed to living in places outside of the US for long periods of time, you will most likely be miserable at SGU. Remember, it's a 3rd world country. Don't expect it to be like the US. My brother has been there since 1st year pre-med (bought into a bunch of stories, not really his fault). Could have very easily gotten into a good US medical school since he's really smart but took the SGU route. Anyway I went down there and it's not exactly the best place to be. The ocean is nice for a while but you start to get sick of it and according to my brother, you start to feel detached from the rest of the world and feel completely isolated. But when you're in med school, you're studying all the time in your room anyway, it's just when he was there for pre-med it sucked ass.

Why on earth did your brother go to SGU if he "could have very easily gotten into a good us medical school"?

 

[Bacchus]

Why on earth did your brother go to SGU if he "could have very easily gotten into a good us medical school"?

Because he's been there since 1st year premed. Doubt he'd be successful coming offshore into an onshore school. He'd probably be more successful than a non-citizen, however.

 

[cpants]

So he got his undergraduate degree there?

 

[Bacchus]

It seems from the post.

 

[Decicco]

all offshore schools, including SGU have significantly higher attrition than their US counterparts. Meaning they achieve better results at the end by eliminating the harder cases earlier on. So attending any offshore school means a lot less than 40% chance of becoming a doctor

This doesnt make sense. Attrition rates are high because Caribbean schools accept everyone. Thus, some people can't cut it and fail. Whether or not an individual is successful is up to him or her, not some statistic.

Your statement is like seeing that 25% of a school's students match into pediatrics, and then concluding "Hey, there's a 25% chance you will go into peds too!" Doesnt work that way.

 

[cpants]

This doesnt make sense. Attrition rates are high because Caribbean schools accept everyone. Thus, some people can't cut it and fail. Whether or not an individual is successful is up to him or her, not some statistic.

Your statement is like seeing that 25% of a school's students go into pediatrics, and then concluding "Hey, there's a 25% chance you will go into peds too!" Doesnt work that way.

I get what you are saying, but if you go to a Carribean school you are part of that nonselective process. Whether you succeed at a Carib school is not necessarily up to you. The reason you end up there is because you did not perform well enough in undergrad to enter a US school. What will be different now which will give you those stellar grades and great board scores, when you couldn't achieve those things in a much less difficult environment? I'm sure the majority of the students who drop out did their best and just couldn't cut it. They didn't choose to fail.

Now in your individual case, of course you might step up, do great, nail your boards, and end up being a surgeon. The chances are much more likely that you will get by and end up in primary care or a less competitive specialty.

 

[Pghboy18]

This kind of thing comes up a lot, and I always wonder why. If you go to the carribbean and get an "M.D.", it's true that you will have the same two letters following your name as someone who graduates from a U.S. allo school.

On your resume, however, you will list the fact that you went to a caribbean medical school, and the people doing the hiring will by savvy enough to recognize that the standards for admissions to a carib school are far lower than those for a D.O. school in the states and that, IN SOME CASES, the instruction can be questionable. Frankly, the letters "M.D." alone aren't going to overawe a program director. Everyone "in the business" knows that, in terms of selectivity, U.S. MD > U.S. DO >> Carib M.D.

That said, I really don't know how this can be an issue. If you want to build your credentials properly, you need to go to the best, most competitive, well reputed program that you can get into. If that's a D.O. school, that's a D.O. school. The fact that you have an M.D. may impress friends and family, but if your school was in the caribbean, people making decisions will know exactly how your school stacks up to a lot of U.S. D.O schools.

I'm not hating at all on Carib M.D.s - I think you can do great work coming out of any school as long as you take care of business. I just don't really understand how this could really be a conflict, and wonder if it actually is anywhere beside SDN.

 

[Decicco]

I get what you are saying, but if you go to a Carribean school you are part of that nonselective process. Whether you succeed at a Carib school is not necessarily up to you. The reason you end up there is because you did not perform well enough in undergrad to enter a US school. What will be different now which will give you those stellar grades and great board scores, when you couldn't achieve those things in a much less difficult environment? I'm sure the majority of the students who drop out did their best and just couldn't cut it. They didn't choose to fail.

My point is, that anyone who goes to a Caribbean school has just about the same likelihood of graduating that they would if they instead attended a US-MD school. Looking at attrition rates makes the false assumption that US-MD and C-MD schools are made up of equally bright/motivated students.

 

[Bacchus]

My point is, that anyone who goes to a Caribbean school has just about the same likelihood of graduating that they would if they instead attended a US-MD school. Looking at attrition rates makes the false assumption that US-MD and C-MD schools are made up of equally bright/motivated students.

I partially agree. Getting out of med school and into residency is all about effort. Effort comes from the student. However, the problem resides in support. Onshore schools are going to generally be more supportive to students than the offshore schools where you just "pay to get in." That said, if you are a bright student you'll graduate at either place. However, in the states there is a larger support network in case you stumble.

 

[Law2Doc]

My point is, that anyone who goes to a Caribbean school has just about the same likelihood of graduating that they would if they instead attended a US-MD school. Looking at attrition rates makes the false assumption that US-MD and C-MD schools are made up of equally bright/motivated students.

Well, the problem with that notion is that attrition is actually pretty negligible in US allo med schools. Only about 1.5% end up leaving for academic reasons. Which means, if you get into a US med school, you will generally become a doctor. It may not be in 4 years, but it's going to happen eventually if you want it, even if you aren't the brightest and most motivated in your class. They will make you earn it, but statistically, if you got in, you will get through. The same can't be said for offshore schools. There are tons of folks who move off to schools and don't make the cut, and then are out many thousands of dollars with no degree. So when someone is contemplating going offshore for school, the odds of being successful must include risk of attrition. Just looking at match lists of folks who are successful doesn't paint the true picture -- you have to look at the larger group of first years who didn't make it that far. You can't really know starting out in which group you are going to be. You'd obviously like to be in the successful group, and will be doing your best, but you get no assurance. Most people who go to caribbean schools do so because US allo doors weren't open; if they got into the US and want to practice in the US, they would have gone to the US. Thus they already have a lot in common with their peers, and are equally on the chopping block. So yeah, if you are realistically considering this route, then you are someone who has to take into account the attrition rates, because the same factors that made the caribbean a reasonable option for you are the ones that suggest that attrition could be a risk. So yes -- if offshore schools lop off a half of their class before graduation, and you are the kind of person who needed to go to a caribbean school, then yes, you have a 50% chance of not making it to graduation, and likewise, if 40% of non-US educated students don't match that ought to be a bit concerning for someone considering an offshore education and a US residency, particularly when the match rates for US allo last year were 94.2%.

The plain and simple truth is that there is no better path for landing a US residency than a US med school. But if you have to go elsewhere, then you have to really shine, because the odds aren't nearly as stacked in your favor, and you have to be a LOT better than your US counterpart to even get looked at in the same pile. That's the system in place.

 

[Decicco]

if offshore schools lop off a half of their class before graduation, and you are the kind of person who needed to go to a caribbean school, then yes, you have a 50% chance of not making it to graduation

Would you, Law2Doc, have a 50% chance of not graduating at SGU? Of course not. When you say "offshore schools lop off a half of their class," you make it sound like there is some kind of quota of failure--simply not the case. A simple way to say it is this: if you could succeed in a US-MD school, then you very likely could succeed in a C-MD school as well. Your posts seem to imply otherwise.

 

[Depakote]

Would you, Law2Doc, have a 50% chance of not graduating at SGU? Of course not. When you say "offshore schools lop off a half of their class," you make it sound like there is some kind of quota of failure--simply not the case. A simple way to say it is this: if you could succeed in a US-MD school, then you very likely could succeed in a C-MD school as well. Your posts seem to imply otherwise.

I think there might be some US allo students that wouldn't make it in C-MD schools. Every year a measurable percentage of US allo students repeat a course or even a year. Most of these students eventually graduate.

I suspect that if you placed these students in a C-MD school they probably wouldn't get that chance to remediate. I'll admit haven't done the legwork to verify the remediation policies in C-MD schools but with an attrition rate that high, I feel safe with that assumption.

 

[diosa428]

I think there might be some US allo students that wouldn't make it in C-MD schools. Every year a measurable percentage of US allo students repeat a course or even a year. Most of these students eventually graduate.

I suspect that if you placed these students in a C-MD school they probably wouldn't get that chance to remediate. I'll admit haven't done the legwork to verify the remediation policies in C-MD schools but with an attrition rate that high, I feel safe with that assumption.

This is true. US schools try to get their students through the program to the point that they accommodate them in ways that Caribbean schools do not. Furthermore, I believe that most Carib schools have clinical rotations in the US, and rely on the fact that a certain percentage of the class will fail out by 3rd year because they are only allowed to place a certain number of students at the various hospitals that they have agreements with.

Which brings up another point for the OP - think of the lifestyle you would have staying in one place for 4 years vs being in one place for 2 years and then being sent all over the US for your rotations. At least if you stay at the same school for 4 years you will have a "home" and be familiar with your school's system, etc.

 

[peppy6]

This is true. US schools try to get their students through the program to the point that they accommodate them in ways that Caribbean schools do not. Furthermore, I believe that most Carib schools have clinical rotations in the US, and rely on the fact that a certain percentage of the class will fail out by 3rd year because they are only allowed to place a certain number of students at the various hospitals that they have agreements with.

Which brings up another point for the OP - think of the lifestyle you would have staying in one place for 4 years vs being in one place for 2 years and then being sent all over the US for your rotations. At least if you stay at the same school for 4 years you will have a "home" and be familiar with your school's system, etc.

I don't think it's really true to say that Caribbean schools "rely on people to fail" because they don't have enough spots. Attrition is higher at some Caribbean schools than it is at others, really at some the better schools attrition is pretty low. And from my own personal experience, I don't know anyone from my school in the last couple years that hasn't gotten a rotation spot and we don't have to move around during rotations either. Yeah you have to move after 2 years to head back to the US and start rotations, but once we're back, we can do all of our rotations (minus self-planned electives) at one location. Many US med students coordinate elective rotations at other hospitals, causing them to have to move around too. But from what I know about where I am at, we'll all get rotation spots, and not a whole lot in a given class will fail out.

 

[OldBlue]

Which brings up another point for the OP - think of the lifestyle you would have staying in one place for 4 years vs being in one place for 2 years and then being sent all over the US for your rotations. At least if you stay at the same school for 4 years you will have a "home" and be familiar with your school's system, etc.

This is not another point relevant for the OP. The OP wants to know about SGU. What you are describing is not a characteristic of SGU. While SGU students are in Grenada for the two basic sciences you are not "sent all over the US" for rotations. You go to NYC during the two clinical years unless you set up electives elsewhere.

 

[WestHaven626]

I have had the same dilema.
SGU vs DO.
Here's what I think you should do.

Differ SGU till August 2010. ( you can differ your decision up till a year without paying the $1,000 dollar deposit fee)

Take/Retake the MCAT in April.

Have your score by May. If your MCAT is better than before, apply to DO Schools.

If your MCAT is worse, then you have SGU.

SGU is not for everybody. You have to be tough, and not have any regrets. You have to be ready to work and be the underdog. SGU is an ADVENTURE.
An MD is an MD when your 50 years old. You WILL get a residency from SGU if you try hard enough. Board score pass rate is around 80% during the last 15 years...So having SGU as a backup plan is NOT bad. SGU is the best Caribbean School.

But here's what I'm trying to tell you. STOP THINKING ABOUT IT. The time will come when you HAVE to make a decision. Don't waste time thinking about what to do. Do something, and have options open.

You got a couple months left. Shadow a Doctor (DO or MD) and get a rec letter from them because you need it to apply to DO Schools. Work a couple hours a week. Study MCATS for 8-9 hours a day until April.

Stop thinking about the decision. First have both of them open to you, and then you can decide. No more What If's. Just follow the plan, and you will succeed in SGU or DO no matter what.

Good luck.

 

[diosa428]

This is not another point relevant for the OP. The OP wants to know about SGU. What you are describing is not a characteristic of SGU. While SGU students are in Grenada for the two basic sciences you are not "sent all over the US" for rotations. You go to NYC during the two clinical years unless you set up electives elsewhere.

Umm ok. So that one sentence wasn't relevant, but the rest of it was. I personally would prefer to be in the vicinity of my home school for all 4 years. I am away this year (but still in the same country, and the same time zone) and still find it annoying to not have easy access to my school. Sure email and phone work if you need to get ahold of someone, but I feel a lot more removed from things. So I think that it's worth considering.

 

[Trail Boss]

I've seen both DO and the island MD folks in clinic and in the hospital. Of the 30-40 attendings I've had I would say two of the worst were DO, and one of the best I had was a DO. I've pretty much quit worrying about the letters, there are good docs and ****ty docs with both MD and DO. That said, your name tag just says "MD" not "MD who had to go a school in ____". It is quite, err, tense, when patients ask "Are you an eye doctor". Don't know what I would do if I had to make this choice, I think it is up to the person. There are good doctors and bad doctors from all over the world in U.S. hospitals with all sorts of letters after their names.

 

[cpants]

I've seen both DO and the island MD folks in clinic and in the hospital. Of the 30-40 attendings I've had I would say two of the worst were DO, and one of the best I had was a DO. I've pretty much quit worrying about the letters, there are good docs and ****ty docs with both MD and DO. That said, your name tag just says "MD" not "MD who had to go a school in ____". It is quite, err, tense, when patients ask "Are you an eye doctor". Don't know what I would do if I had to make this choice, I think it is up to the person. There are good doctors and bad doctors from all over the world in U.S. hospitals with all sorts of letters after their names.

True, you might have to explain DO to a few patients, but at least you are guaranteed to get a residency and you get to study in the US. Which is a hell of a lot more than you can say for SGU. I know, I know, everyone says if you work hard enough you will get a residency, no problem. But why would you even want the possibility of not getting a US residency on the table? There is no choice here, if you have the option DO is the way to go.

 

[Law2Doc]

Would you, Law2Doc, have a 50% chance of not graduating at SGU? Of course not. When you say "offshore schools lop off a half of their class," you make it sound like there is some kind of quota of failure--simply not the case. A simple way to say it is this: if you could succeed in a US-MD school, then you very likely could succeed in a C-MD school as well. Your posts seem to imply otherwise.

Who knows. The courses/tests aren't going to be much easier and I doubt you are graded on a curve. The school actually has an incentive to take your money and throw you out in a year or two (rotations are more expensive/complicated to set up, and as mentioned above, rotation slots are limited, so schools HAVE to thin out the class by then). And you still have to take the same boards, but do better on them. So I'd say it probably isn't so much easier than you suggest. A portion of folks who end up having to go offshore are able to turn things around after botching things in college, and would have actually thrived in US schools, had they gotten in, and those are the one's who actually graduate and match. So I'd say to be in this group, you probably will be succeeding amongst folks who could have done fine in the US, not just beating folks who couldn't. So I don't know if your premise that folks who got in in the US would be superstars offshore is necessarilly accurate. Hard to know. What is clear is that those who match have to do outstandingly well -- even better than their US counterparts, to get close to the same consideration. Which is why it's a harder road, and why I wouldn't look at it as a lay-up if you have US allo worthy credentials. You will be working harder, with less yield. Lots of people don't thrive under those situations.

 

[KnuxNole]

For a Carib student to do significantly better than an US counterpart in order for them to match...is this strictly for competitive residencies, or does this rule apply for C-MD's who wish to do FP or IP or other "non-competitive" specialties?

 

[peppy6]

Umm ok. I personally would prefer to be in the vicinity of my home school for all 4 years. I am away this year (but still in the same country, and the same time zone) and still find it annoying to not have easy access to my school. Sure email and phone work if you need to get ahold of someone, but I feel a lot more removed from things. So I think that it's worth considering.

Again, it's all about personal preference. It really shouldn't be about where you go to school because everyone has different reasons for making their decisions. You're right in the sense that if someone is considering going to an offshore school, they definitely have to think about not living in the US, let alone near home. There are some people that just can't or don't want to do it and that's fine. But another misconception is that when students are doing rotations in the US, they're very removed from things at their school. Yes, we'll be miles away from the island, but every clinical center that has rotating students has faculty members and course directors overseeing it. Once you are off the island and doing your rotations, you have these people to go to for questions etc. Yes, the set-up is obviously different than if you were going to a US school with a hospital on or near its campus but really, for the physical distance between the basic science years and the rotation years, they have it organized fairly well at some of the caribbean schools.

Someone above said that by coming to an offshore school you take the risk of having NO chance to get a residency spot...that would only be true if you didn't do your work or chose not to stay here. Yes the number of students in the US that don't match isn't high, but it still happens, so I guess it IS techinically a risk inherent to the process. I'd say the only people that don't make it from an offshore school are the ones that really weren't strong enough academically (because as it's been pointed out, these schools sometimes DO take people with lower scores/GPAs) or didn't want to stay on an island any longer.

It really just depends on what you want to do- if you don't want to go far from home, don't. If you want that convenience of knowing everything is within arms reach, then definitely stay in the US. But, thinking that carib schools are unorganized or don't really take care of their students is not really true.

 

[peppy6]

For a Carib student to do significantly better than an US counterpart in order for them to match...is this strictly for competitive residencies, or does this rule apply for C-MD's who wish to do FP or IP or other "non-competitive" specialties?

Really it's a bigger deal if you are interested in a very competitive residency or competitive residency program (like an academic institution etc). It's definitely possible and happens every year, but this is likely where you need to work harder to show you are a viable candidate. If you go to the websites of some of the larger Caribbean schools- Ross, SGU, AUC, etc. you can check out their match lists for the last few years. A decent mix of primary care, competitive residency fields and programs.

 

[lilwheezy]

I'm not sure if the OP has stated this before...but what DO school are we talking about here? An established one such as PCOM?