Do you crack on your DO collegues?

[crys20]

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After many years of hearing that the whole anti-DO mentality is largely pre-med, I was alarmed when a MS3 MD student in a pretty DO-friendly state told me about his first couple weeks on the wards. Even in a DO heavy hospital, he encountered many of his 3rd and 4th year MD counterparts ripping on the DO students, residents, attendings, etc behind their backs. This alarmed me largely because I'm considering going to an osteo school over an allo school based on general feeling for the school and location, even at a much larger cost. I feel like I would never be that bothered by those kind of things since I would really have not much to defend...I would be someone who CHOSE to be a DO, not someone who had that as their only option coming out of ugrad. Also, I would think that if someone on your team in the clinical setting is not underperforming there would be no reason to ever say anything about them being a DO, you know? That said, I was still wondering...What is the general opinion in the allo world of your DO counterparts??

 

[Chief Resident]

After many years of hearing that the whole anti-DO mentality is largely pre-med, I was alarmed when a MS3 MD student in a pretty DO-friendly state told me about his first couple weeks on the wards. Even in a DO heavy hospital, he encountered many of his 3rd and 4th year MD counterparts ripping on the DO students, residents, attendings, etc behind their backs. This alarmed me largely because I'm considering going to an osteo school over an allo school based on general feeling for the school and location, even at a much larger cost. I feel like I would never be that bothered by those kind of things since I would really have not much to defend...I would be someone who CHOSE to be a DO, not someone who had that as their only option coming out of ugrad. Also, I would think that if someone on your team in the clinical setting is not underperforming there would be no reason to ever say anything about them being a DO, you know? That said, I was still wondering...What is the general opinion in the allo world of your DO counterparts??

It doesn't matter if you chose to go to a DO school or not, most MD's will automatically assume you went to a DO school because you couldn't get into a stateside MD school. Same thing if you go to a foreign MD school. Remember, many MD's had DO schools as their back-up if they didn't get into an MD school or knew others who did, so naturally they will think those who went DO couldn't get into an MD school like them. The stigma doesn't end with pre-meds, they are found at all levels of medicine, from med students all the way up to attendings. You can't really control what people think, so the best you can do is to make sure you are comfortable from wherever you get your degree and just do your best to ignore what others say.

 

[Jinyaoysiu]

It doesn't matter if you chose to go to a DO school or not, most MD's will automatically assume you went to a DO school because you couldn't get into a stateside MD school. Same thing if you go to a foreign MD school. Remember, many MD's had DO schools as their back-up if they didn't get into an MD school or knew others who did, so naturally they will think those who went DO couldn't get into an MD school like them. The stigma doesn't end with pre-meds, they are found at all levels of medicine, from med students all the way up to attendings. You can't really control what people think, so the best you can do is to make sure you are comfortable from wherever you get your degree and just do your best to ignore what others say.

Yeah it's okay to assume the DOs didn't get into the MD schools, but so what if they didn't? and for people to be shallow enough to rip on them? If they're in the same residency or working in the same hospital, that means they ended up at the same place as you. Why would you personally care which med school they went to, or even care enough to make unprofessional comments about it? It's like MSIs comparing SAT scores, it's so in the past get over it please.

As med students/doctors we are all smart enough to know that people rip on others because of some insecurity/self-esteem issues. We put down others to elevate ourselves. Some times I hope that as doctors we are somehow "better" than the general population in that aspect, since you know, there was some kind of weeding-out process at med school applications/interviews...or was there? Or are some doctors really just as shallow as everyone else?

Jiny

 

[Chief Resident]

Or are some doctors really just as shallow as everyone else?

Yes they are, sometimes even moreso than 'everyone else'.

 

[crys20]

I heard the comment once that went something like this. "So you take someone who applied 3 times to get into med (meaning an MD school). I think he deserves something more (meaning whatever more that MD is gonna give him) than the person who got into DO school the first time around with their 23 MCAT." Now I hardly agree with that statement, but I did find it interesting. I also don't generally agree with letting people with 23 MCATs in, but that's another story altogether. 🙂

Honestly, I would be happy choosing DO and comfortable with it. But I feel like in order for me to really make a good decision I need to know what I would be in for, at all stages of the game. Because you just hear so often that "patients don't notice", "its a premed thing", etc. So it's interesting to hear from allo people, too ya know.

I don't want to start this into yet another DO/MD thing, but I'd love to keep hearing perspectives.

 

[Taus]

I'm definitely gonna get flamed for this one...but whatever...here goes...

Within an individual hospital, I can understand if some of the MD's have to make themselves feel bigger, as somehow the little DO's are doing the same job and making the same money as them. In no way do I mean all MD's think this way, just the ones who throughout their entire lives had to get best grades, go to the best schools, get the best residency and all of a sudden they are in the same exact position/situation as the DO's whom they deem lesser. While I don't condone that thought process, I can understand it.

Its the same thought process that would go on in a Harvard Med graduates mind if they were "unfortunate" enough to be working side-by-side with another MD who went to a low-ranked state school and now has the same job as him/her. Thats just a random example...but you can see how/why it exists.

Alright...I've said my piece...I'm curious to see where this discussion goes...but who am I kidding....sit back and wait for the DO-bashing....

 

[rob14599]

I have found that pre-meds and medical students tend to be the most self-centered, egotistical, arrogant jerks that have ever walked the face of the earth. And it's a condition that only gets worse as you move up the food chain (premed--> med student -->doctor). Too many Type A personalities for my taste. The worst thing about being an aspiring physician is not the courseload, or the studying, or the lack of free time, or the cost, it's dealing with the other aspiring physicians who would step all over your face if they thought it could help elevate themselves. 😡

And for a medical student to make fun of an attending for being a DO, just who the hell do they think they are? As if they know even 1/20th of what that DO attending knows. The DO philosophy, while starting out very different from allopathic, has grown so close to their allopathic counterpart over the years that they are practically indistinguishable today. The only thing that sets a DO apart from an MD is OMM, and 90% of DOs drop that by the wayside as soon as they leave medical school. The only reason why DO schools have lower MCAT scores and undergrad GPAs when compared with the MD schools is because every premed wants MD after their name. It has nothing to do with the quality of education and everything to do with what initials are printed on your labcoat. Many pre-meds won't even consider a DO school because they want those MD initials after their name, so of course DO schools are going to have lower stats.


So please don't rag on your collegues. Grow up and be a frickin adult and show respect. And respect the nurses and PAs you work with too.

 

[ShyRem]

You have to understand, doctors are first and foremost PEOPLE. And lots of people (yes, including MDs) are shallow. Just 'cuz they are smart, or perhaps world-renowned in their field, or dumber than a post does not mean they can't be shallow and lack self-confidence to the point where ripping on their DO colleagues makes them feel better. In a perfect world, such behavior wouldn't exist. Welcome to humanity. People, including doctors, aren't always very nice.

 

[Law2Doc]

The only reason why DO schools have lower MCAT scores and undergrad GPAs when compared with the MD schools is because every premed wants MD after their name. It has nothing to do with the quality of education and everything to do with what initials are printed on your labcoat.

While I generally agree with the sentiment of your post (and agree that med students are not in a position to make fun of attendings or more experienced doctors in any respect), your above quote assumes that the academic quality of the student body adds nothing to the quality of the education. I'm not sure that is true, given the amount you tend to end up learning from your fellow students in med school. There are sometimes definite learning advantages in surrounding yourself with uber-smart overachievers ("self-centered, egotistical, arrogant" though they may be) and you lose out on this if your school's admissions standards and criteria are set too low.

 

[stoic]

i wish some of my DO collegues would crack on me, i've got sciatica and it's killing me.

people probably do get ripped on for being DO's. But if they weren't DO's, they'ed get ripped on for something else. Medicine is interesting.... it's a bunch of hypercompetative individuals with small penisis (except for me) thrown into a room together. sometimes things get nasty.

don't worry about going to a DO school. i actually wanted to go to a DO school over an MD school, but in the end I just couldn't say no to in-state tuition and the only state school we have is MD. in the end there is really very little difference between how an MD and DO practice medicine.

s

 

[nerfherder]

The DO attendings I've had were some of the best teachers and I personally haven't noticed any arrogant MD's ripping on DOs, However you should consider a few things when choosing a med school besides whether or not people will knock you for being a DO.
1) Tuition- Try to save money. Someday you DO have to pay off your loans.
2) Some states require DOs to do a DO internship before residency. That's an extra year that your life devoted to slave labor.
3)You have to take COMLEX for licensing plus USMLE if you're applying to residency programs that want to see how you compare to other applicants.
4) There are fewer osteopathic residency positions esp. in some specialties, requiring the DO internship and USMLE for allopathic residency.
Please don't flame me, I really think DOs are great but they have to put up with more s**t to get to the same place as MDs.

 

[ASDIC]

its kind of funny that i I know a lot of DO students who have scored 99 (240+) on the USMLE Step 1 compared to lots of other MD students who have scored significantly lesser

osteopathic students learn more than thier allopathic counterparts, they use the same textbooks, same hospitals and same professors.

also patients dont care if u are a DO or a MD....for them a doctor is a doctor...

 

[4 Ever]

the sample size that you encountered isn't a true representative of MD vs DO performance on Step 1. The pass rates show however that allopathic schools have more students passing the USMLE than others. This could also be because DO students have to take their own boards in addition to the Step 1. Imagine going through that.

that being said, I have a different question. do DO's make fun of their MD colleagues who went to a non-US allopathic school (i.e. islands, india, etc)

p.s. some patients DO care what intials are after the doctor's name. Most however don't know. To them anyone wearing a white coat is doctor. As a medical student I have been called doctor even after I repeatedly let them know I am just a student.

 

[ms1finally]

its kind of funny that i I know a lot of DO students who have scored 99 (240+) on the USMLE Step 1 compared to lots of other MD students who have scored significantly lesser

osteopathic students learn more than thier allopathic counterparts, they use the same textbooks, same hospitals and same professors.

also patients dont care if u are a DO or a MD....for them a doctor is a doctor...

I'm not ripping on DOs, I too have respect for them. But I have one question for everyone who answered that they respect DOs as fully trained, fully qualified, equivalent to MD, physicians - why the allo route?

I personally chose it because I really wasn't aware of DO schools. I knew it existed, but not much more. My pre-med advisor never raised the possibility of applying to DO schools with me (which he probably should have, given my GPA). By the time it was mentioned to me (by a physical therapist) it was October of the year I was applying - too late.

 

[trudub]

DO's are fine and dandy in my book but I think what some people are saying is exactly why some people rip DO's. The DO philosophy originally was much different from that of the allopathic philosophy. So, the two different route really did represent two different routes. However, today, the two have become almost indistinguishable. As someone already said, the main difference is OMM and most DO's drop that. So, the point I am trying to make is that since the philosophies aren't really distinguishable anymore and the admissions standards are lower on the whole, a lot of people see DO as a short cut or a fall back. If DO's truly chose to do DO because they believed in the philosophy it would be much different than if DO's go DO because they can't get in an MD school. That is just my two cents and I think DO's when they are finished are just as competent practicioners as MD's.

 

[loveumms]

It is truly pathetic that any student, intern, resident or attending would "rip" on a DO counterpart.

Going to a DO school is almost exactly the same as an MD school (even though they have different views of medicine they learn the same material).

I am going to be an MD and have worked with many DOs. I have never seen them as anything different then what they are ... someone who wants to take care of patients and get the job done. Infact, the DOs that I have worked with have been some of the smartest people I've ever known.

So ... if I heard someone making fun of or talking down to a DO student, resident or attending I would take it as a reflection of their own inadequacy. I agree with some of the above posters that some people in medicine are just so insecure about themselves that they have to talk bad about their colleagues in order to make themselves feel adequate - its really sad!

 

[DropkickMurphy]

We had an ER doc at one of the hospitals here who was a Harvard grad, and he answered to an American who went to med school in the Phillipines and a DO (who are the two best docs I know by the way). He went into a tirade about how he should "as a Harvard grad" not have to answer to "a *expletive deleted* FMG and that osteo-b_tch". Needless to say when he said this and it was OVERHEARD by the chief of the medical staff (who happened to have graduated from an Indian medical school) he didn't keep his job for long.

 

[MoosePilot]

osteopathic students learn more than thier allopathic counterparts, they use the same textbooks, same hospitals and same professors.

How do osteopathic schools take students that may have had on average lower numbers in undergrad give them a course of study in the same 24 hours per day and 7 days per week and somehow have them learn "more"? That's pretty cool!

The sense of superiority on both sides is just ridiculous. If it's the same, it's the same. It can't be exactly the same... but a little bit better!

 

[beastmaster]

its kind of funny that i I know a lot of DO students who have scored 99 (240+) on the USMLE Step 1 compared to lots of other MD students who have scored significantly lesser

While this is true, what's really funny is that many of the MD students have more MD rejections than the DO students. I know way too many sickos who applied to 30 schools and barely got in through a single waitlist with worse scores than I have. Doesn't that make Him the "true MD reject" -- come on, 29 rejections, that's a good chunk befitting of that title, no? Between my 'circle of friends' in school who I interact with the most, the lowest MCAT score among us is a 29.

Just because someone was rejected doesn't make them unqualified. I have gpa/mcat above the average allo matriculant and was rejected (bad luck, fate, who knows), a DO school scooped me up and good for them I'll make them proud. One school told me that, according to an interviewer, I "didn't show enough passion for medicine." If these schools continue to reject qualified candidates on the grounds of pure bullsh1t, the current trends will continue.

 

[trudub]

Maybe for illustrative purposes I could use an example. I am not saying I agree with this mentality but I think this is the way some people think.

The question is, who do you respect more: the pre-med who has lower than average scores tries to get into an allopathic and fails but works hard in post-bac classes, gets his/her masters, retakes the MCAT, etc and eventually gets into an MD program OR the student who has lower than average scores tries to get into an allopathic school and fails but cops out and goes to DO school even though he/she has no interest in the DO philosophy?

This example obviously excludes those who go to DO school because they believe in the philosophy. Again, I am not saying I agree with this mentality but I think it is this line of thinking that leads to a lot of the sentiment against DO's.

 

[Chief Resident]

Unfortunately it is something DO's will have to deal with. There will always be MD's who will look down on other doctors who didn't get an MD from an American school. From my personal experience anything that deviates from the status quo is looked down upon in medicine.

 

[beastmaster]

Maybe for illustrative purposes I could use an example. I am not saying I agree with this mentality but I think this is the way some people think.

The question is, who do you respect more: the pre-med who has lower than average scores tries to get into an allopathic and fails but works hard in post-bac classes, gets his/her masters, retakes the MCAT, etc and eventually gets into an MD program OR the student who has lower than average scores tries to get into an allopathic school and fails but cops out and goes to DO school even though he/she has no interest in the DO philosophy?

Ok, now suppose this person does all of that, becomes the model candidate and is not accepted. Seriously, stop believing that every qualified candidate gets accepted!

What then becomes of your illustration? This person wasted 2 years getting a post-doc and masters. That makes him, what, a fool? Unlucky? Should he apply again for a 3rd time? What if he isn't accepted then.

 

[trudub]

Ok, now suppose this person does all of that, becomes the model candidate and is not accepted. Seriously, stop believing that every qualified candidate gets accepted!

What then becomes of your illustration? This person wasted 2 years getting a post-doc and masters. That makes him, what, a fool? Unlucky? Should he apply again for a 3rd time? What if he isn't accepted then.

The illustration is tough there and in addition, I am not saying by any means that all people who go DO are less qualified, some of them are more highly qualified than MD students. All I am saying is that I think it is coping out to go DO if you don't believe in the philosophy. The ultimate point that I am trying to make is that I think that since DO and MD have become inseparable and most DO's don't believe in the DO philosophy anyway, probably DO does not need to exist anymore. They should just expand the number of MD spots available. I realize that there are some people who do believe in the DO philosophy and that is why they chose the school but I think they are definitely the minority given what I know of my friends at DO school and what they tell me about the people they go to school with. Bottom line is that I think DO praciticioners are great, they deserve our respect but at the same time I don't think DO is needed anymore.

 

[crys20]

I think the supposed person should have applied DO the cycle he realized that he wasn't a shoe-in at allo schools. Even if not entirely interested in OMM. I respect people who want medicine so bad that they look for every option, learn about every option and then go after it as timely and efficiently as possible. What I have not a ton of respect for is people soooo enamored with the idea of having MD after their name that they spend 3 years going after it.

 

[Chief Resident]

What then becomes of your illustration? This person wasted 2 years getting a post-doc and masters. That makes him, what, a fool? Unlucky? Should he apply again for a 3rd time? What if he isn't accepted then.

This would most likely be used as fodder by some MD's to argue that this person's best wasn't good enough to get him/her into an MD school so he/she got into medicine by sneaking through the back door (DO school).

Listen, it's going to be a stigma one way or another, and the more you try to 'fight' the stigma and prove to others that you are 'equal' to them the worse it makes you look. The best is to ignore the comments and just do your job.

 

[crys20]

Yeah seriously the best defense is to not be defensive at all.

 

[Jinyaoysiu]

The question is, who do you respect more: the pre-med who has lower than average scores tries to get into an allopathic and fails but works hard in post-bac classes, gets his/her masters, retakes the MCAT, etc and eventually gets into an MD program OR the student who has lower than average scores tries to get into an allopathic school and fails but cops out and goes to DO school even though he/she has no interest in the DO philosophy?
.

Who do I respect more? If they both end up in the same residency program or hospital that I work at, I respect them equally. This thread is about DO colleagues in the work environment and how they should be evaluated based on their abilities/personalities/ethics..etc not where/why/how they went to school. It's in the past and I'm not sure where one went to med school should earn anybody any "respect," but I'm certain that it should not be subjected to unprofessional/shallow comments .

Apparently Trudub does not understand that concept. He wants to decide his respect for others based on their intricate trivial past instead of focusing on the pertinent present. I bet he's one of those that will continue to talk about his SAT scores or how he applied 3 times to MD school and finally got in when he ends up in the retirement home hoping that would earn him "respect."

 

[Jinyaoysiu]

And I find it funny that if MDs want to focus on the past of a DO, why aren't they more focused on more recent and much much more relevant past such as board scores, performance in the wards, and the fact that DOs had to fight the stigma to end up in the same residency. Instead they are focused on MCAT/undergrad GPA/MD application process. Clearly this whole talk of "respect" for someone's past is bullsh*t, such as how a "hardworking" 3rd time applicant that finally got into a MD school...,and is only self-serving for someone to inflate their own ego.

 

[Chief Resident]

Jinyaoysiu, the stigma will always be there since people will believe what they want to believe. There's nothing you can really do to change that.

 

[CatsandCradles]

I guess with a lot of things, there will be two different sides. I mean look, we got liberals and conservatives. They yell and scream at each other plenty.
Both are ideologies that differ.

Republicans and Democrats go at each other like dogs and cats on CNN. Both are political parties on Capital hill, but they differ on what's best for the country.

We also got Catholics and Protestants that won't stop talking behind each others backs and teaching thier children that the other side are cannibles! Both are religious sects that have much in common,
but differ with one another on other issues.

So perhaps it is only natural that we end up with two medical proffesions in America.

A poster mentioned that DOs are people who couldn't make the cut and get MDs behind thier name. That might be an unfair sterotype attack against DOs, but I read that and I was like "he (or she) has got a point."

Well, this will sound rather pessimistic on my part, but I think that had a lot to do with me choosing to apply only to the DO programs. Truth be told, I simply did not have a chance at any of the allopathic programs - I just didn't have the scores. God, for one reason or another, did not grant me a 29+ on my MCAT and a beautiful 3.8 GPA in biology. And I spent more time studying at the libary than sleeping at my apartment!

But I still want to become a doctor so badly. I firmly beleive in serving the underserved and I very much plan on working with NGOs such as the
Int Red Cross or Doctors Without Borders. I want to work in third world nations. Hey look, I want to be doctor so bad that I'll give up pursuing the more prestige MD degree and take the "under dog medical degree" if that's what it takes.

My younger sister, when she found out that I was going to an osteopathic school yelled out, "so your going to be a fake MD?"

I was really really hurt by what she said, but in the end I had to swallow my pride and tried to ignore her. It was so bad I went to bed cying about it. It even hurt more when I thought about how a lot of osteopathic schools do have lower MCAT scores and lower GPA scores. And besides, how many DOs actually use OMT? Not many. So in a way, my younger sister is right, I am a "fake MD." And let's be honest, a lot of prospective MDs use the osteopathic schools as a mere back up plan.

So now you see just how really dicey of a situation that I am in. I have to take a "fake MD" in order to follow my heart - it hurts bitterly but the most I can do is learn everything this school has to offer me and move on.

I definantly plan on spending a good portion of my life serving in underserved nations - and if the only chance I can do this is via an osteopathic school, then so be it.


Crys20, you are truly different than me in that you choose osteopathic medicine strictly on philosophical grounds - and that shows that you are a person who follows your ideals. People like you certaintly are people of great strength and upright moral character.

I envy people like you. There was one girl in my undergraduate institution that reminded me of you. She had really high MCAT scores and GPA and then choosed to go to an osteopathic school. We were good friends and I was sort of like "what the hell is wrong with you?"

You see why I envy her? She goes in there with a clear frame of mind. I on the other hand will always secretly wish I could go to an MD program. I definantly have some sort of inferiority struggle that takes place in my head and I will always suffer accordingly for it.

But I also often wonder that if DO schools required scores required 29+ MCAT scores and higher GPAs, would I feel better about myself. I most certaintly would.....but then I also realize I'd never become a doctor.

Isn't the internet a beautiful thing. You can espouse all sorts of deep Freudian thoughts without the severe reprecussions it would have in our real spatial and physical world.

Maybe all of this inferioirty thing is beacause I (perhaps most of us here) all have that evolutionary yearning inside of us to be "fitter" than the rest of our colleauges.


God speed you safe and sound,

Peter

 

[EctopicFetus]

Wow.. long..

My 2 cents, I am in an MD program (4th year!!!)... Anyhow I judge DO's like MD's some are smart and some are dumb. On my current rotation there is a DO resident 2 MD residents, some fellows (MDs) the attending MD, and 6 students. 2 are DO's and 4 are MDs. Bottom line is everyone gets respect until they lose it. On our service everyone gets treated equally. I will say though that I have definitely noticed a stigma to the DO. This is more pervasive in the bigger hospitals. I worked in some private practices and it doesnt exist there due to the collegial relationship that people often develop.

By far the most impressive EM resident I have EVER been around was a DO. The guy was simply brilliant, he was training at an MD program and I in the ED where I worked with him were residents from the U of Chicago. He was clearly superior. All that DO loving aside I have been around some DO students this year who clearly are just out of their realm. I assume their training in like ours but these students clearly had no clue what was going on. In the end it is really dependent on the person. IMO the biggest reason not to go DO is the lack of opportunity down the road. It is extremely difficult for DO's to match into MD spots, especially competetive MD spots and as such many go into the less competetive fields like primary care.

Simply put that based on my experience the stigma of DO wont go away anytime soon, it is simply the nature of the medical field. the whole thing is a game of one-upsmanship. That being said every advantage is exploited. Some are clear, Did you go to Harvard etc? Where did you get an MD?

This is the game, the way I see it is that there is no way to avoid it unless you do private practice.

 

[tupac_don]

I have found that pre-meds and medical students tend to be the most self-centered, egotistical, arrogant jerks that have ever walked the face of the earth. And it's a condition that only gets worse as you move up the food chain (premed--> med student -->doctor). Too many Type A personalities for my taste. The worst thing about being an aspiring physician is not the courseload, or the studying, or the lack of free time, or the cost, it's dealing with the other aspiring physicians who would step all over your face if they thought it could help elevate themselves. 😡

And for a medical student to make fun of an attending for being a DO, just who the hell do they think they are? As if they know even 1/20th of what that DO attending knows. The DO philosophy, while starting out very different from allopathic, has grown so close to their allopathic counterpart over the years that they are practically indistinguishable today. The only thing that sets a DO apart from an MD is OMM, and 90% of DOs drop that by the wayside as soon as they leave medical school. The only reason why DO schools have lower MCAT scores and undergrad GPAs when compared with the MD schools is because every premed wants MD after their name. It has nothing to do with the quality of education and everything to do with what initials are printed on your labcoat. Many pre-meds won't even consider a DO school because they want those MD initials after their name, so of course DO schools are going to have lower stats.


So please don't rag on your collegues. Grow up and be a frickin adult and show respect. And respect the nurses and PAs you work with too.

Also the fact that DO schools accept people with lower MCAT's and lower averages than MD schools, don't help their reputation.

 

[Long Dong]

In medicine everybody rips on everybody, medicine rips on ortho, plastics on general, R2s on interns, everybody rips on family, etc.

 

[cfdavid]

I'm pretty sure I'll have an MD acceptance as well as a DO acceptance (well now, aren't I Mister Confident! lol). I volunteer in an ER in Michigan, and I can honestly say that several of the DO attendings in the ER are super sharp.

I know for sure that one guy was a California resident, and from what we all know, that can be a disadvantage overall. Anyway, this guy (and several others) is a very good doc. He's totally on the ball, and can teach.

So, yeah, there may be some stigma. But, perhaps as future physicians it's up to us to nip that **** in the bud.

Cheers!

 

[Inquiringmind24]

For someone like me that wants to do primary care, I think that being a DO gives you lots of advantages. Now that I'm just starting to learn OMT, I really want to get good at it and use it in the future. Plus, the extra musculoskeletal training ought to be a great help for making accurate physical diagnoses. Now if I was set on one of the really competetive specialities like derm, radiology, or some of the surgical subspecialties, I probably would have gone the MD route. That's just because there's more opportunity. Overall, I'm really happy to be in a DO program (aside from the tuition) and I couldn't imagine it any other way. So if anyone gives me a hard time in the future, that's their problem.

 

[Shangal]

I guess it's all a state of mind more then anything else. If you think of yourself as an inferior because you got a DO and not an MD, well I guess that's your problem. And thinking that you won't get a competitive residency because you're a DO, well that is non sense too. First of all, there are DO hospitals out there that only DOs can get into, and second, if you ace the boards you will get a residency spot gauranteed in some MD affiliated hospital.
I am having these conversations with med students recently, yeah I am in that phase now, and bottom line is that residency programs look at board scores more then anything else. And the reason why people from top ten schools get the best residencies is simply because they are smarter then most of us in med schools, that is clearly why they got accepted to those schools in the first place, and they get the highest board scores. I mean I am in wayne state, which is supposed to be an MD school with good clinical years, decent reputation in michigan, but our average board score is something like 215, which sucks by the way, making us average. That's why it's tough for alot of us to get competitive residency programs. Not because we are not a top 50 school in my opinion. Unless of course your talking about an ivy league school residency, well I guess they like top ten schools only.
Well I kind of forgot why I wrote this response and I don't know where I am going with this, it's almost 3 a.m. and I am dosing off. I guess I wanted to say, your not less because you are a DO, you are like all of us, just do well on the boards, and everyone will envy you and want your babies. Oh, and I heard that DO chicks are pretty hot, so that is a plus. I am getting to realize that MD kids in general aren't easy on the eyes.
Oh, and if you're insecure about being a DO don't go to websites that put you down. And I hope you realize soon that life is short and it's not worth it to be upset because of little differences like getting a DO instead of an MD. It's not as bad I guess as living in downtown baghdad.

 

[Elysium]

This is my experience on this issue: there is a lot of variation in DO schools (less than in MD schools, I think). You have excellent state schools like TCOM, OK State, MSUCOM that have fairly high admission standards (very much like MD schools) and then you have the other end of the spectrum (which, I'm sure you all could come up with if you felt like it) that accepts some less qualified applicants. I attended one of those "less" DO schools and to be honest, a lot of my classmates struggled. We had 7 people fail anatomy (out of 70), which has partly to do with the sociopath instructor and partly to do with the quality of the students. At an MD school I know of (top 20) NO ONE failed anatomy. No one failed any course, as a matter of fact. Typically, at my school, at least 20 people fail each exam (this apparently is not the norm) and I guess it's worse with the first years this year. Not sure how boards are going to turn out, but my guess is that it'll be pretty ugly.

I have to say, even I have a stigma against DOs sometimes. I know first hand that some (not all) of the folks in these schools are there for a reason (and I'm not discounting myself from that group!). I'm not saying that there can't be brilliant DOs who practice excellent medicine. We had some wonderful DO instructors. But, I would strongly urge anyone who has a choice b/w MD and DO to go MD. OMM is SO not worth it, IMO. It's the biggest bunch of mamby-pamby voodoo horsesh1t you've ever seen in your life ("I think I feel the cranial sutures moving!"). Go get a good massage. This is just my experience, though, so feel free to draw your own conclusions.

 

[crys20]

This is my experience on this issue: there is a lot of variation in DO schools (less than in MD schools, I think). You have excellent state schools like TCOM, OK State, MSUCOM that have fairly high admission standards (very much like MD schools) and then you have the other end of the spectrum (which, I'm sure you all could come up with if you felt like it) that accepts some less qualified applicants. I attended one of those "less" DO schools and to be honest, a lot of my classmates struggled. We had 7 people fail anatomy (out of 70), which has partly to do with the sociopath instructor and partly to do with the quality of the students. At an MD school I know of (top 20) NO ONE failed anatomy. No one failed any course, as a matter of fact. Typically, at my school, at least 20 people fail each exam (this apparently is not the norm) and I guess it's worse with the first years this year. Not sure how boards are going to turn out, but my guess is that it'll be pretty ugly.

I have to say, even I have a stigma against DOs sometimes. I know first hand that some (not all) of the folks in these schools are there for a reason (and I'm not discounting myself from that group!). I'm not saying that there can't be brilliant DOs who practice excellent medicine. We had some wonderful DO instructors. But, I would strongly urge anyone who has a choice b/w MD and DO to go MD. OMM is SO not worth it, IMO. It's the biggest bunch of mamby-pamby voodoo horsesh1t you've ever seen in your life ("I think I feel the cranial sutures moving!"). Go get a good massage. This is just my experience, though, so feel free to draw your own conclusions.

My problem is this. My heart and my gut say go to this DO school because you love the school, the people, the location, the opportunity to live someplace new and different that you adore, the opportunity to get away from a place you want to get away from. Plus, I want to do prim care, of that I'm pretty sure so what is the likelihood that DO will ever limit my residency choice? 10%, maybe? I'm a decent applicant, I don't really doubt that I will perform poorly enough on step 1/comlex 1 to NOT get me an ACGME prim care spot in a region of my choice, ya know? So when it gets pointed out that DO will limit you, I can counterpoint it out by saying it probably won't affect me. I know I would feel comfortable being a DO...Because I chose it. End of story. No reason to be defensive. I can see it being tiresome though being placed under this blanket consensus that DOs are students who couldn't hack it in ugrad so they were forced to choose that route. Very tough call for me...AZCOM is definately the school I want to go to but I have to think who in their right mind would choose it, at a higher cost, over state MD schools (albeit in really sucky locations that I really do not want to live in) 🙂

 

[CatsandCradles]

My problem is this. My heart and my gut say go to this DO school because you love the school, the people, the location, the opportunity to live someplace new and different that you adore, the opportunity to get away from a place you want to get away from. Plus, I want to do prim care, of that I'm pretty sure so what is the likelihood that DO will ever limit my residency choice? 10%, maybe? I'm a decent applicant, I don't really doubt that I will perform poorly enough on step 1/comlex 1 to NOT get me an ACGME prim care spot in a region of my choice, ya know? So when it gets pointed out that DO will limit you, I can counterpoint it out by saying it probably won't affect me. I know I would feel comfortable being a DO...Because I chose it. End of story. No reason to be defensive. I can see it being tiresome though being placed under this blanket consensus that DOs are students who couldn't hack it in ugrad so they were forced to choose that route. Very tough call for me...AZCOM is definately the school I want to go to but I have to think who in their right mind would choose it, at a higher cost, over state MD schools (albeit in really sucky locations that I really do not want to live in) 🙂

AZCOM is a really good looking school. I got an interview there and on inspecting the website - I was like, I'll be dog gone - that looks like one hell of a good school!

Unless some other program is far cheaper and offers an equal or greater educational value - I say go to Arizona. 👍

Pete

 

[Shangal]

I feel like I am in group therapy. I guess I understand where most of you guys come from since I am still bitter for getting my rejection letter from University of Michigan 2 years ago. I mean why did they give me false hope by giving me that interview, and now I am stuck with people who went to michgan state for undergrad. Life is not fair sometimes. Seriously, whenever I go to ann arbor I feel like I am missing out by being in detroit and being in this crappy state school they call wayne state. Which by the way are all University of Michigan rejects. Ba humbug.
I am just counting the days I have to go for my suffering to be over, 2.5 years, Detroit sucks, I should've went to TUCOM, where the sun is always shining, and you get free massages by hot girls everyday. It would've been paradise.
Oh yeah, we have a lot of kids failing their classes too at wayne. I think 17 kids out of 260 failed anatomy last year. This year 2 people failed micro. We have a lot of stupid people here, there is this guy, or girl I don't know, who is getting more then 5 standard deviations below the mean. I mean how is that even possible. What was that person thinking taking these exams in the first place.
O.k., so how am I going to end this. To my DO friends out there, by the way I got some in TUCOM and MSUCOM, face it you suck. But at least you get free messages, I'd kill for one right now. And anything beats living in Detroit, we have nothing going on here except for gossipy students.
take it easy

 

[beastmaster]

What about the DOs in the more competitive fields, can they rip on the MDs in the less competitive ones? 😀

 

[Shangal]

no beastmaster, no they can not.
God people are wierd

 

[BeBlessedMD]

Bottom line...The MD's that look down on DO's were the same little kids who said, "my dad could beat your dad up". I go to an allo school, and a couple of my best friends just got accepted into Western DO. The Bottom Bottom line...there futures are equally as bright as mine.

 

[Chief Resident]

Bottom line...The MD's that look down on DO's were the same little kids who said, "my dad could beat your dad up". I go to an allo school, and a couple of my best friends just got accepted into Western DO. The Bottom Bottom line...there futures are equally as bright as mine.

Is it possible to have 2 bottom lines?

 

[TSisk23]

I am fond of the philosophy difference perspecitive. I am all about the "treat the patient, not the disease" perspective because I feel this is a solid belief, but to say that you chose a DO school because of this seems rediculous. To say that an MD doesn't do this or hold the same ideals as a DO just seems wrong. Hopefully all people want to become doctors for the right/same reasons. I agree with previous statements, just judge a person based on their performance. As mentioned I like how people do this bashing in residency...apparently the student isnt tooooo bad if they are training at the same location you are.

Oh additionally if I get into Washington it wont be because I am qualified by their standards because if you look at my profile I most certainly dont meet them. But its extremely funny that if nobody knows I am from Wyoming and I get accepted they will assume that I am a super applicant. Not sure what that has to do with anything...maybe just the "qualified" getting into certain MD schools.

 

[PsychEval]

The discrimination I have observed has been less overt. For instance, someone may say, “who is the PMD?” When in fact, the PMD may actually be a PDO.

 

[Chief Resident]

The discrimination I have observed has been less overt. For instance, someone may say, “who is the PMD?” When in fact, the PMD may actually be a PDO.

PMD?

 

[PsychEval]

PCP - Primary Care Provider or Primary Care Physician.

PMD - Primary Medical Doctor

 

[trotter]

Let me preface this by saying that, in the end, you will get out of your med education what you put into it. And I also concur that life is too short to fret to any great extent about what people think of or are saying about you, or to worry too much about what everyone else is doing with their own lives. As long as you can sleep soundly at night and feel good about the person you are and the decisions you make, it's all good.

That said, I do feel that the education provided by a DO school that I am familiar with appears to be sub-par to me at times. I have a very close friend who is in one of "top" DO programs in the country. This DO program also rotates their students through one of the community hospitals in the town that I do my clinicals at. Through my observations and the comments of my friend, I have learned that the DO students there don't take any shelf exams(or any clinical exams whatsoever), rarely take call, have fewer patient responsibilities, have less organized didactics and also had lower passing requirements for pre-clinical courses. While I'm sure that a student could take initiative to learn the necessary academic information to be more than competent, I have to wonder about the educational institution they attend and whether or not it will be producing AS MANY competent docs as the MD schools that I am familiar with.

 

[fuegorama]

Let me preface this by saying that, in the end, you will get out of your med education what you put into it. And I also concur that life is too short to fret to any great extent about what people think of or are saying about you, or to worry too much about what everyone else is doing with their own lives. As long as you can sleep soundly at night and feel good about the person you are and the decisions you make, it's all good.

That said, I do feel that the education provided by a DO school that I am familiar with appears to be sub-par to me at times. I have a very close friend who is in one of "top" DO programs in the country. This DO program also rotates their students through one of the community hospitals in the town that I do my clinicals at. Through my observations and the comments of my friend, I have learned that the DO students there don't take any shelf exams(or any clinical exams whatsoever), rarely take call, have fewer patient responsibilities, have less organized didactics and also had lower passing requirements for pre-clinical courses. While I'm sure that a student could take initiative to learn the necessary academic information to be more than competent, I have to wonder about the educational institution they attend and whether or not it will be producing AS MANY competent docs as the MD schools that I am familiar with.

Good points. I especially agree with your first line. From my pre-clinical DO ed. experience there are portions that I feel took much more effort for me to pull out the salient science. My biochem and immuno courses were an embarassment. I felt this heavily on the USMLE.

That said, I will put my school's anatomy program against ANY in the country. Dedicated faculty and fellows round constantly, great lectures, 24 hour access to every cadaver in the lab. Oh...and a lab that you wanted to be in. I mean how many schools have hanging plants in their cadaver rooms?

I could say the same about my embryo, micro and neuroanatomy courses. OMM is a given. (I am not a hard-core manip-head, but it is a very cool skill set to posess.) These are the strengths of a DO education.

Do I wish I had a better immuno background? You betcha, but for my career plans, the strengths of my education will hopefully fill in nicely where some of my sciences are less strong. For the boards I found myself digging deep and glomming onto my friends that are gurus of cell signalling. It cam out alright.

Back to the ripping bit. Walking across the hospital parking lot a while back I shamelessly eavesdropped on two kidz from God's medical school taking a little blue-nosed smack.

"I'm just not sure about these osteos, I mean what do we really know about there training? Who is teaching these people anyway?" Two flights of stairs later and a walk to a conference room finds me sitting at table with these minor deities. We all turn when the attending comes in and we get to find out just who is teaching US.