Do you feel D.O. schools need to increase requirements -- such as mcat scores?

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Do you feel D.O. schools are taking the top applicants in terms of GPA and mcats or are they looking more at other things -- such as personality and experience. do you feel D.O. should focus more on gpa and mcat scores or research experience in order to increase credentials.
 

EUA

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ha. the way it's going they will have to lower mcat/gpa requirements in order to attract people as medicine as a whole becomes more and more dismal a place to be!
 

jkhamlin

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amoxicillin said:
Do you feel D.O. schools are taking the top applicants in terms of GPA and mcats or are they looking more at other things -- such as personality and experience. do you feel D.O. should focus more on gpa and mcat scores or research experience in order to increase credentials.
Contrary to all the lip service they pay to things like experience, volunteering, and maturity, I'm finding that all they care about is GPA, GPA, GPA to the exclusion of even MCAT scores less than 35.
 

frank51

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EUA said:
ha. the way it's going they will have to lower mcat/gpa requirements in order to attract people as medicine as a whole becomes more and more dismal a place to be!
Not really, from what I understand most people who are familiar with the field say that with the way economy is more people are looking to attend medical school and that the number of applicants is increasing each year, naturally with a greater number of applicant comes higher admissions standards. As for D.O schools raising the requirements, I think they should. Accepting someone with a 20 MCAT is very questionable (although a dean of a particular MD school in Texas told us that they have), I think they should also raise the GPA requirements as it is more indicative of hard work, dedication, and intelligence, doing well on the MCAT on the other hand has a great deal to do with test taking skills and other factors, I know a lot of smart people who have gotten mid-20s on the MCAT, however, all of them had very good GPAs.
 
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To tell the truth they probably base it off the same formula MD schools use.
 

PublicEnemy

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i've never quite understand how or why the credibility of a school rests on who they take and not what they produce.
 

kaikai128

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PublicEnemy said:
i've never quite understand how or why the credibility of a school rests on who they take and not what they produce.
I like your point. I wish more ppl approached medicine this way.
 

NotShorty

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frank51 said:
Accepting someone with a 20 MCAT is very questionable...doing well on the MCAT on the other hand has a great deal to do with test taking skills and other factors
Talk yourself into circles much?

The MCAT is a test that loosely indicates how well you'll perform in med school, not how good of a doctor you'll be. That's what board exams are for.

NS
 

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amoxicillin said:
Do you feel D.O. schools are taking the top applicants in terms of GPA and mcats or are they looking more at other things -- such as personality and experience. do you feel D.O. should focus more on gpa and mcat scores or research experience in order to increase credentials.
No, because numbers don't always indicate what kind of doctor you'll be. However, that $500-2000 deposit has got to be changed. That is 5-20 times more expensive to reserve a seat at a DO school vs MD school. Plus, DO deposit =non-refundable, MD deposit=refundable
 

BOHICA-FIGMO

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frank51 said:
Not really, from what I understand most people who are familiar with the field say that with the way economy is more people are looking to attend medical school and that the number of applicants is increasing each year, naturally with a greater number of applicant comes higher admissions standards. As for D.O schools raising the requirements, I think they should. Accepting someone with a 20 MCAT is very questionable (although a dean of a particular MD school in Texas told us that they have), I think they should also raise the GPA requirements as it is more indicative of hard work, dedication, and intelligence, doing well on the MCAT on the other hand has a great deal to do with test taking skills and other factors, I know a lot of smart people who have gotten mid-20s on the MCAT, however, all of them had very good GPAs.
FWIW, I wouldn't believe anything an MD school dean has to say about a DO school....
 

docbill

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MCAT should be used as a flag.

Most Canadian schools are switching to this idea. They still require good MCAT scores, but not as main factor.

www.ubc.ca (Flag)
www.utoronto.ca (Flag)
www.uottawa.ca (stoped requiring it)
www.macmaster.ca (stoped requiring it)
www. NOMS.. also don't require it)
www.mcgill.ca (if you are in province you don't require it)
www.ulaval.ca, umontreal.ca, usherbrook (all french- don't require it)
 

jkhamlin

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frank51 said:
Not really, from what I understand most people who are familiar with the field say that with the way economy is more people are looking to attend medical school and that the number of applicants is increasing each year, naturally with a greater number of applicant comes higher admissions standards. As for D.O schools raising the requirements, I think they should. Accepting someone with a 20 MCAT is very questionable (although a dean of a particular MD school in Texas told us that they have), I think they should also raise the GPA requirements as it is more indicative of hard work, dedication, and intelligence, doing well on the MCAT on the other hand has a great deal to do with test taking skills and other factors, I know a lot of smart people who have gotten mid-20s on the MCAT, however, all of them had very good GPAs.
Some of us don't have rich parents to provide us the virtually unlimited time and resources it takes to attain a high GPA. Some of us have to make choices like working and paying bills vs. extra time studying. The hardest choice many high GPA students have to make is attend the frat party vs. extra time studying.
MCAT scores are a much better assessment than GPA.
 

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jkhamlin said:
Some of us don't have rich parents to provide us the virtually unlimited time and resources it takes to attain a high GPA. .
Bitter much?

That's a pretty sweeping generalization to make about people who get good grades.

There are many (including on SDN) who have held jobs, raised kids, kept marriages together and mastered the force all while keeping good grades.

Having "rich parents" doesn't mean one will automatically have good grades any more than not having "rich parents" excludes someone from that accomplishment.
 

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amoxicillin said:
Do you feel D.O. schools are taking the top applicants in terms of GPA and mcats or are they looking more at other things -- such as personality and experience. do you feel D.O. should focus more on gpa and mcat scores or research experience in order to increase credentials.
Had it not been for DO schools many of us would not have had the chance to even interview at a med school. This field has accepted you and me for who we are and not solely based on a test score.

And I think posting things like this in a public forum serves to only weaken our DO title. If you feel you need to discuss the negatives about your own field you should do so only amongst your own -- not in a public forum. Don't forget this degree is your means of living. You weaken it's credentials, you weaken your income.

And what Public Enemy said is very true. DO's have grown and gained respect because they've produced great physicians.

I'm not trying to pick on you amoxicillin. I respect that you question things but I think that as a future DO (a title that you will carry your whole life) you should try protect and further prove that this title actually deserves respect.
 

lama

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Osteopathic schools should RAISE the GPA/MCAT standard. After having spent two years watching several students in my class drop or decelerate I thought I had seen enough evidence that numbers matter. But what really floors me is sitting in class, to this day, listening to some moron who's still holding on for dear life academically, make comments or ask questions that leave me and the rest of the class absolutely flabergasted. Right about then, every time, my jaw drops, I shake my head and wonder how that dumbf*ck got into medical school. It never ceases to amaze how desperate DO schools are for mediocre students and how dumb some people are for wanting to become a doctor so bad that they'll pay ANY price just to tell family and friends they got in.
 

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NotShorty said:
Talk yourself into circles much?

The MCAT is a test that loosely indicates how well you'll perform in med school, not how good of a doctor you'll be. That's what board exams are for.

NS
I agree, and if you read my original statement I state this fact, but still a score like 20 is a very low score, and often times it shows that the student has not understood some of the basic conepts.

BOHICA-FIGMO said:
FWIW, I wouldn't believe anything an MD school dean has to say about a DO school....
He wasn't talking about a D.O school, he was talking about his own school. I've heard several other M.D schools accepting applicants with very low MCAT scores, but then again those applicants my have been URMs.
 
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iwasn't trying to bad mouth the profession at all. I am trying to improve our field by bringing in students interested in research and with a great level of intelligene to further our profession by taking on difficult medical tasks.
 

jkhamlin

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EMTLizzy said:
Bitter much?

That's a pretty sweeping generalization to make about people who get good grades.

There are many (including on SDN) who have held jobs, raised kids, kept marriages together and mastered the force all while keeping good grades.

Having "rich parents" doesn't mean one will automatically have good grades any more than not having "rich parents" excludes someone from that accomplishment.
The overwhelming majority of undergrads have parents supporting them to the extent that I get answers like "why don't you just get your parents to..." as a stock response to any problem I have. You show me someone married to another student with kids holding down a job with absolutely no outside family support, taking an average of 16 hours per semester / 10 in the summers, and making a GPA significantly higher than 3.5. I'd be making almost a 4.0 if I had ANY free time. I would be just short of the 4.0 because I actually speak up when some bone head professor says something stupid, so I occasionally get a punishment grade. "Many" is not a sweeping generalization. Please try to read more thoroughly before starting the knee jerk flaming.
 

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Chrysanthemum said:
And what Public Enemy said is very true. DO's have grown and gained respect because they've produced great physicians.
I agree. I'm not a med student yet, but the best way to advance the standing of the DO profession is to produce good physicians that have a positive impact on peoples' lives. From what I've seen, and experienced, this is happening in a big way.
 

The Virginian

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amoxicillin said:
Do you feel D.O. schools are taking the top applicants in terms of GPA and mcats or are they looking more at other things -- such as personality and experience.

Probably a combination. They look for smart "people" doctors.

do you feel D.O. should focus more on gpa and mcat scores or research experience in order to increase credentials.
Not necessarily, but if they want to increase the stats, they could quite simply change the degree from D.O. to M.D. The "M.D." is magical to many, and it would automatically boost numbers.
 

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NotShorty said:
Talk yourself into circles much?

The MCAT is a test that loosely indicates how well you'll perform in med school, not how good of a doctor you'll be. That's what board exams are for.

NS
Having taken step 1, I wonder how that indicates how good a doctor you will be. Lots of schools lookk for experience, personality and character. I am on the interview committee at my school and we see all kinds of scores. But they are all good people.
 

Kry

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lama said:
Osteopathic schools should RAISE the GPA/MCAT standard. After having spent two years watching several students in my class drop or decelerate I thought I had seen enough evidence that numbers matter. But what really floors me is sitting in class, to this day, listening to some moron who's still holding on for dear life academically, make comments or ask questions that leave me and the rest of the class absolutely flabergasted. Right about then, every time, my jaw drops, I shake my head and wonder how that dumbf*ck got into medical school. It never ceases to amaze how desperate DO schools are for mediocre students and how dumb some people are for wanting to become a doctor so bad that they'll pay ANY price just to tell family and friends they got in.
I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who feels this way.
 

kaikai128

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I have seen several posters comment that average accepted MCAT scores from 2 years ago are no longer vaild...as the avg score has went up at their respective school.

Regardless; in the end, the only thing that matters is that the school is able to produce quality physicians. As long as this is hapenening, who cares about a few numbers. I agree that acrossed the board that the MCAT and GPA are reasonable predictors of a students ability to succeed in an academic environment; but these numbers are often scewed based upon extinuating circumstances (especially GPA).

I know I have never asked my physician what he scored on the MCAT, undergrad GPA, or extracurriculars....I only care about the quality of his post bac training.
 

jkhamlin

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kaikai128 said:
I have seen several posters comment that average accepted MCAT scores from 2 years ago are no longer vaild...as the avg score has went up at their respective school.

Regardless; in the end, the only thing that matters is that the school is able to produce quality physicians. As long as this is hapenening, who cares about a few numbers. I agree that acrossed the board that the MCAT and GPA are reasonable predictors of a students ability to succeed in an academic environment; but these numbers are often scewed based upon extinuating circumstances (especially GPA).

I know I have never asked my physician what he scored on the MCAT, undergrad GPA, or extracurriculars....I only care about the quality of his post bac training.
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
 

Kent

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I believe that DO schools do a good job in selecting applicants. When considering GPA and MCAT scores there is a wide range of things to consider. For example: Some schools are more difficult to get a good GPA. How can an admissions committee make a fine cutoff on setting a GPA standard? They can't....let's face it some schools are easier than others and some teachers even in the same department are easier. (Let's face it - for that class you really don't want to take don't you choose the easier professor - I know I did)
Also, doesn't the MCAT simply reflect a single day in ones life. Think about this...the MCAT reflects on how you "performed" on ONE test on ONE day. It reflects how well you rested the night before the test (and if you have kids this isn't always predictable) or what specific questions you get - I know that I had questions that I could answer because of previous knowledge not a compilation of the facts in the reading and basic science knowledge. A person who can invest (time and money) in a prep course will do better and you can always take the test again. I think that GPA and MCAT are simply used to identify those who clearly can't do the academics to succeed.
(By the way I got a 24 MCAT and have a 3.6 undergrad GPA)

More importantly, if these schools believe that they can take a person with a 20 MCAT and 3.0 GPA and make them a good doctor - let them take the challenge. It doesn't hurt our field. I believe that it shows that DOs (now I'm speaking in generalities) are well rounded. With the rolling admissions at most DO schools they can also select the students that are the most excited (and passion is what will pull you through) about medicine based on how early they apply.

Simply look at the fruits of a DO education. My experience with every DO I've met is that they're top notch professionals and well rounded individuals. So let the MCAT and GPA stay the way it is. I just want a good doctor and that is what DO schools are making.
 

frank51

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Also keep in mind that like previous posters have mentioned, the selection with regards to MCAT/GPA varies from school to school; for example the average GPA/MCAT for TCOM is similar to most of the MD schools in Texas.
 

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Kry said:
I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who feels this way.

I dont. I think what lama posted is wrong. I agree that people ask stupid questions all the time. However, I really dont think this is a tribute reserved soley for DO schools and i doubt its always those with lowest GPA/MCAT scores that ask these questions. I'm in the top 20% of my class right now and i didnt have the best GPA/MCAT. Sure higher scores lend the schools more credability but i highly doubt raising the GPA by .2 points and the mcat by 3-4 points is really going to improve the intellagence of the student body very much. With that said i dont think it would hurt to raise it anyway.
 

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amoxicillin said:
iwasn't trying to bad mouth the profession at all. I am trying to improve our field by bringing in students interested in research and with a great level of intelligene to further our profession by taking on difficult medical tasks.
What? You better start worrying about yourself instead of SDN's views on DO's.
 

calcrew14

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There is no need to raise any number because the change is inevitable as more and more applicants discover such hidden treasures. No matter how hard people would try to reinforce the “as is” policy, the bar will gradually be raised by every new crop of applicants. Just you wait until younger people learn not to burn any bridge behind them.
 

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amoxicillin said:
iwasn't trying to bad mouth the profession at all. I am trying to improve our field by bringing in students interested in research and with a great level of intelligene to further our profession by taking on difficult medical tasks.

I think the problem here is that you relate level of one's inteligence to their GPA and MCAT score. As it has been brought up before, we all have very different situations to deal with while in college. Some have family problems, some have personal problems and some are challanged by different disorders. Current requirements does not block out any "intelligent" students out of the program. There's no roof requirement, such as if you score above 30, then you can't come to our school. Even at MD schools acceptance of mid 20s MCATs are common, and YES I am from california, and this year it has happened to some of my friends. Another thing to mention is that student with higher GPA's or MCATs are not necessarily "more" interested in research. There are graduate students in our lab at the moment who were doing very poorly in college, but you should see what they have accomplished now at grad school. If your logic is that better and "more" intelligent students are those with higher statistics, and therefore we should only let those folks in schools because they are the ones who can make good docs and researchers, then I have to disagree with you.