Do you feel MCAT Verbal is an IQ test?

[axp107]

I posted this in here since more people in this section have actually taken the MCAT.

What do you think?

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[josh999123]

The AAMC loves graphs and stats, maybe they should think about trying to correlate this like they correlate everything else.

 

[jochi1543]

I don't think so. My IQ is apparently in the top 5%, but my VR was in the top 25-30%.

 

[ChristianJames1]

I don't think so either. I know some smart people who bombed verbal.

 

[jochi1543]

We must also remember that people who are taking the MCAT already have an above average IQ. I think the average med student IQ is something like 130, and for a college student (i.e. the MCAT taker) it's like 115, which is above the population average.

 

[lander20]

I remember hearing that the average IQ of individuals taking the GRE exam is around ~115, which is an entire standard deviation above the general population. I would expect this statistic to be higher for average medical student.

 

[Kfire326]

I really hope it's not an IQ test... heh

 

[CATallergy]

it's probably reasonably good as a component of an IQ test. when the SAT was out of 1600, I'd heard people say that SAT/10 was a good approximation

 

[Ephesus]

Yes. Every standardized test is an IQ test. We don't know the MCAT to IQ specifics because that information is not released.

 

[Trismegistus4]

Heck, I think the entire MCAT is an IQ test. When I took it, I was surprised by how little the bio section relied on knowledge of the topics it allegedly covers, and how much it relied on interpreting the passages and solving problems.

 

[linuxizer]

Yes. Every standardized test is an IQ test. We don't know the MCAT to IQ specifics because that information is not released.

If you want to say that every standardized test is an intelligence test to some degree, I might support you. The statement you made, however, simply is not true. IQ is an attempt at assessing generalized intelligence. The MCAT verbal section, for instance, does not generalize to a very smart non-native speaker. For that and many other reasons, it would make a mightily poor IQ test.

Ari

 

[Ephesus]

If you want to say that every standardized test is an intelligence test to some degree, I might support you. The statement you made, however, simply is not true. IQ is an attempt at assessing generalized intelligence. The MCAT verbal section, for instance, does not generalize to a very smart non-native speaker. For that and many other reasons, it would make a mightily poor IQ test.

Ari

An IQ test is an IQ test. The MCAT is simply a culturally biased IQ test. Same thing with the GRE general test.

 

[Schaden Freud]

How is the MCAT culturally biased?

An IQ test is an IQ test. The MCAT is simply a culturally biased IQ test. Same thing with the GRE general test.

 

[GujuMD]

An IQ test is an IQ test. The MCAT is simply a culturally biased IQ test. Same thing with the GRE general test.

Explain! I know of people who truly belive this and keep on saying this.

As for me, I did score low on the verbal and English is not my first language and I was not born in America.

 

[Schaden Freud]

Well it's hard for a Zulu tribesman to understand a passage on Rutherford's gold foil experiment.

Explain! I know of people who truly belive this and keep on saying this.

As for me, I did score low on the verbal and English is not my first language and I was not born in America.

 

[GujuMD]

Well it's hard for a Zulu tribesman to understand a passage on Rutherford's gold foil experiment.

ofcourse and maybe someone who has lived in US their whole entire life whould have trouble understanding a passage about Zulu tribesman.

 

[CATallergy]

yay american TV

ofcourse and maybe someone who has lived in US their whole entire life whould have trouble understanding a passage about Zulu tribesman.

 

[riceman04]

An IQ test is an IQ test. The MCAT is simply a culturally biased IQ test. Same thing with the GRE general test.

uhhhh ohhhhhhhhhhh!!!!

Pass the popcorn, red rooster hot sauce, chicken, beer (light...hahaha), and watermelon...and a lawn chair!!!

 

[ssquared]

it's probably reasonably good as a component of an IQ test. when the SAT was out of 1600, I'd heard people say that SAT/10 was a good approximation

Oh there's no way that could be true! That would mean way too many people would be classified at the "genius" level. With the old SAT (prior to 1995) maybe, but not the current version.

And I only wish my linguistics friend was around here to debate the idea of the MCAT being culturally biased. She'd rip most of our heads off!

 

[Steiner]

You're never going to get useful answers because people who do poorly on tests will tell you tests are poor evaluations of intelligence, and people who do well will tell you they are good ones. If a person did poorly on the verbal, are they going to admit that that also means they have a low IQ?

 

[Dr.D-man]

No, it is not. I have undergone neurospsychological cognitive testing, which was basically an IQ test. It was administered by a clinical psychologist. My verbal reasoning score percentile was very different from my actual IQ score percentile. My overall MCAT score percentile was much closer, but still not the same.

 

[deleted103644]

it's probably reasonably good as a component of an IQ test. when the SAT was out of 1600, I'd heard people say that SAT/10 was a good approximation

The SAT is curved, which means that school officials get to gloss over the fact that students have been getting stupider each year. A 1600 in 1996 was nowhere near as impressive as a 1600 in 1976. I should know - 11 kids in my h.s. got one. If you really believe in the concept of an IQ test, you should probably look at Mensa's thoughts on what constitutes an acceptable substitute for one. GRE counts, SAT and MCAT do not. And whoever said that people who take the GRE are probably not as smart on average as people who take the MCAT, really?!? If we're including sociology Ph.D.s, then maybe, but if you're sticking to hard sciences, I very much doubt it.

As for the verbal being an IQ test, what about non-native speakers, or quantitative skills that have little to do with mastery of the English language? Anyone with less than a complete native grasp of English will suffer on verbal, just because there is absolutely no curve and the top 3 points or so are decided by 3-4 multiple choice questions, making the difference between a 13 and a 15 probably statistically insignificant.

The only thing that MCAT-takers definitely have an advantage in over GRE-takers is common sense, at least when considering biology Ph.D.s. Becoming a postdoc is one of the least rewarding jobs that gives you the least amount of return for the most amount of schooling. Say what you will about the future of a career in medicine, but anything is better than being a postdoc.

 

[Steiner]

I think MENSA only takes the GRE if it was taken before a certain year (2001).

I have taken both the GRE and MCAT and in my opinion, the verbal section on the GRE was much harder. It had similar reading comprehension sections, but also tons of analogies and antonyms. If you have taken Latin or know Greek roots, you're golden, but if you don't know those it looks something like this

asdisaudgiu is to eboerbni as opwerp is to _________

A) sdafiuvberiub
B) ierutvn
C) vohnvipreu
D) concorinv


Just F.Y.I.

 

[Steiner]

The only thing that MCAT-takers definitely have an advantage in over GRE-takers is common sense, at least when considering biology Ph.D.s.

I think you could replace "MCAT-takers" with just about any group of people.

Ph.D.s are another breed. My advisor would be in his lab on Thanksgiving, Christmas, and any other holiday. I don't think he knew he had a family at home.

 

[Trismegistus4]

asdisaudgiu is to eboerbni as opwerp is to _________

A) sdafiuvberiub
B) ierutvn
C) vohnvipreu
D) concorinv

You're not going to leave us hanging with that one, are you? C'mon, what's the answer?!?!

 

[ssquared]

Ph.D.s are another breed. My advisor would be in his lab on Thanksgiving, Christmas, and any other holiday. I don't think he knew he had a family at home.

I had a professor once ask a student in a seminar class why he had been in our biology building at 3am on a Tuesday. I wanted to ask him what he was doing there then himself! He said he works best at night. I think he too forgot that he has a 2 year old child.

 

[shantster]

If you go with the thought that the IQ test is a measure of "innate" intelligence, and therefore, not able to be changed, then the VR section can't be considered that. I went up 4 points with practice on that section.

 

[maestro1625]

If you go with the thought that the IQ test is a measure of "innate" intelligence, and therefore, not able to be changed, then the VR section can't be considered that. I went up 4 points with practice on that section.

I kind of agree with your point, though to be fair, to see a jump that high in VR is pretty rare when compared to the other 2 sections.

 

[Steiner]

You're not going to leave us hanging with that one, are you? C'mon, what's the answer?!?!

it's obviously sdafiuvberiub.

 

[armybound]

I think MENSA only takes the GRE if it was taken before a certain year (2001).

I have taken both the GRE and MCAT and in my opinion, the verbal section on the GRE was much harder. It had similar reading comprehension sections, but also tons of analogies and antonyms. If you have taken Latin or know Greek roots, you're golden, but if you don't know those it looks something like this

asdisaudgiu is to eboerbni as opwerp is to _________

A) sdafiuvberiub
B) ierutvn
C) vohnvipreu
D) concorinv


Just F.Y.I.

I would rather sit through the entire MCAT again than just the english portion of the GRE.

I honestly hated the GRE more. It was stressful.

 

[CATallergy]

The SAT is curved, which means that school officials get to gloss over the fact that students have been getting stupider each year. A 1600 in 1996 was nowhere near as impressive as a 1600 in 1976. I should know - 11 kids in my h.s. got one. If you really believe in the concept of an IQ test, you should probably look at Mensa's thoughts on what constitutes an acceptable substitute for one. GRE counts, SAT and MCAT do not. And whoever said that people who take the GRE are probably not as smart on average as people who take the MCAT, really?!? If we're including sociology Ph.D.s, then maybe, but if you're sticking to hard sciences, I very much doubt it.

As for the verbal being an IQ test, what about non-native speakers, or quantitative skills that have little to do with mastery of the English language? Anyone with less than a complete native grasp of English will suffer on verbal, just because there is absolutely no curve and the top 3 points or so are decided by 3-4 multiple choice questions, making the difference between a 13 and a 15 probably statistically insignificant.

The only thing that MCAT-takers definitely have an advantage in over GRE-takers is common sense, at least when considering biology Ph.D.s. Becoming a postdoc is one of the least rewarding jobs that gives you the least amount of return for the most amount of schooling. Say what you will about the future of a career in medicine, but anything is better than being a postdoc.

being older (non-trad), my SAT experience might have been a better approximation - when I took it, none of us had even heard of prep courses!

 

[notdeadyet]

The MCAT? Please. Even IQ tests aren't really IQ tests....

 

[ADeadLois]

If you go with the thought that the IQ test is a measure of "innate" intelligence, and therefore, not able to be changed, then the VR section can't be considered that. I went up 4 points with practice on that section.

Bingo. I improved my score by practicing test-taking skills specific to the section. I don't think it was a measure of anything inate. Doing well on VR is all about being familiar with the types of questions and the typical answer choices. Some people can do well on VR innately, but a good portion of people who score well do so because of proper preparation.

 

[quiksilver87]

Yes I think there is a VERY strong correlation between your MCAT score(especially verbal) and your IQ...

 

[sgglaze]

You're never going to get useful answers because people who do poorly on tests will tell you tests are poor evaluations of intelligence, and people who do well will tell you they are good ones. If a person did poorly on the verbal, are they going to admit that that also means they have a low IQ?

I'd trust the people who did well, they're smarter.

 

[bwells46]

We must also remember that people who are taking the MCAT already have an above average IQ. I think the average med student IQ is something like 130, and for a college student (i.e. the MCAT taker) it's like 115, which is above the population average.

Reference? I find it hard to believe that the average med student is in the top 2% of the population...

 

[dutchman]

Taking the MCAT VR with English as your second language is a bioch. It will take more than a high IQ to do well. You will have to work your ass off.

 

[bwells46]

I remember hearing that the average IQ of individuals taking the GRE exam is around ~115, which is an entire standard deviation above the general population. I would expect this statistic to be higher for average medical student.

Why would you expect the average med student to be smarter than the average future PhD?

 

[lander20]

Why would you expect the average med student to be smarter than the average future PhD?

The average person taking the GRE has an IQ of 115. The average score on the GRE is around a 1000. So imagine a bell curve around 1000. In order to be a competitive PhD applicant, one must score at least 1300+. Assuming the GRE is an accurate measure of IQ, it would be safe to say that the average Phd has an IQ significantly higher than 115. (probably ~130, or two standard deviations above the general population).

 

[bwells46]

The average person taking the GRE has an IQ of 115. The average score on the GRE is around a 1000. So imagine a bell curve around 1000. In order to be a competitive PhD applicant, one must score at least 1300+. Assuming the GRE is an accurate measure of IQ, it would be safe to say that the average Phd has an IQ significantly higher than 115. (probably ~130, or two standard deviations above the general population).

Do you have a reference for the 115 average IQ for GRE test takers? It's probably a biased sample but I know when I took the GRE to get into grad school, the other people taking it seemed pretty bright.

I will say one thing about the GRE. I studied for ~2 days and scored over 1400. I don't think I would have fared as well studying that little for the MCAT. I fact, I wish I would have spent a few weeks longer than ~5-6 weeks for which I did study. Maybe then I would have a 33 or 35 instead of a 30.

 

[Nikki2002]

monks on cliffs??? now that's culturally biased

 

[Oculus Sinistra]

And whoever said that people who take the GRE are probably not as smart on average as people who take the MCAT, really?!? If we're including sociology Ph.D.s, then maybe, but if you're sticking to hard sciences, I very much doubt it.

I can almost guarantee you that a "sociology Ph.D." is going to get a higher score on Verbal than a person taking the MCAT. They're used to seeing the big picture and picking out details. All my sociology tests (I'm a science major but I think the classes are interesting) were essay-based, MCAT-style questions.

Education majors are another story.

 

[Kajukenbo]

We must also remember that people who are taking the MCAT already have an above average IQ. I think the average med student IQ is something like 130, and for a college student (i.e. the MCAT taker) it's like 115, which is above the population average.

I don't think we can state what the average college student is. After all, many people find that a bachelor's degree in math/eng/chem/physics to be conceptually harder than medicine itself.

 

[Kajukenbo]

I remember hearing that the average IQ of individuals taking the GRE exam is around ~115, which is an entire standard deviation above the general population. I would expect this statistic to be higher for average medical student.[/q

There are general GRE exams and subject GRE exams. Obviously, the subject GRE's are all different from one another. Some are harder than others as grad programs vary in terms of difficulty.

There are graduate careers that are conceptually harder than medicine. I don't believer for a minute that aspiring theoretical earth magnetic fields specialists in Geophysics have lower IQ's than med students. If anything it may be the other way around. There are specialties in psychology that also get very intense. Neuropsychology (biopsych) is one example.

 

[UMP]

monks on cliffs??? now that's culturally biased

I loved that passage Those crazy bastards actually get up there and live there for years? Geez.... How much pointless trivia I learned from those practice VR sections is amazing...

 

[Cirrus83]

Well, it's SORT of an IQ test, but it largely depends on your English comprehension abilities for it to work as an IQ test. So if you're a recent immigrant who just learned English 5 years ago you're likely to get a much lower score versus someone who's been reading English books like a lunatic since they were 3 (that's not me btw, I couldn't really read English until I was 6 but I made up for it, lol).

Assuming you (and come to think of it, those you're being compared to) have complete and utter mastery of the English language, then yes it basically becomes an IQ test.

But that really applies to any test, lol.

For what it's worth I have the same %ile verbal and IQ, but that's just because the comparison pool doesn't affect move my percentile because the comparison is limited by the # of significant digits the percentile is calculated to (heh, you can figure out what my %ile probably is based on this last statement).

 

[Nikki2002]

I can almost guarantee you that a "sociology Ph.D." is going to get a higher score on Verbal than a person taking the MCAT. They're used to seeing the big picture and picking out details. All my sociology tests (I'm a science major but I think the classes are interesting) were essay-based, MCAT-style questions.

Education majors are another story.

yeah i minored in sociology--the upper level classes were tough--mostly essay exams like you said.


i think that all of the psych, sociology, and philosophy I took really helped me out on the verbal section

 

[Ephesus]

Explain! I know of people who truly belive this and keep on saying this.

As for me, I did score low on the verbal and English is not my first language and I was not born in America.

Culturally biased means there is a bias in culture. For example, on the WISC in America, there is a question about money. They use American money. For the WISC given in Canada, they use Canadian money. That's to make it culturally fair.

There are culture fair IQ tests available - the Raven and Cattell being some. They are basically matrix questions. It's like taking the WAIS-III performance section only.

And for the guy who said I took a neuropsychological evaluation and that is basically an IQ test etc.. you're spewing off crap. A neuropsychological evaluation is just that, a neuropsychological evaluation made up of varied tests for a neuropsychological assessment. I am quite sure you took an IQ test in your neuropsychological evaluation - if you took it in America, chances are you took the WAIS-III.

 

[45408]

The SAT is curved, which means that school officials get to gloss over the fact that students have been getting stupider each year.

the average IQ has been going up every year though. how does that work with kids getting "stupider"?

 

[uhohspaghettio]

actually, the VR section does measure a part of one's IQ. However, it doesn't measure all. The other part is the mathematical part. (Some even say that musical skill should be a part of IQ test but forget that argument here)
Usually, those who do well on the verbal section have better intrinsic communication and literay skills. Those who do well on the math section have better scientific appliction skills. That is why most general IQ tests such as SAT and GRE tests include those two subjects.

How does this translate to a medical school result? Those who have better math (Scientific) skills do better the first two years of med school, while thos who have better VR skills do better the latter two years. Also, I've heard the same thing from a couple Chief of Internal Medicine at this hospital.