Do you guys ever have doubts...

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
Q

qety432

New Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
May 25, 2012
Messages
1
Reaction score
0
Do you guys ever have doubts about the future of the DO profession because you're unsure what AOA and COCA are going to do? I used to be really gung-ho about going DO...I shadowed one, got a letter of rec, was a big advocate for DO with my other pre-med colleagues, and was part of a DO club on campus. But I sometimes worry that they're more concerned about sheer numbers or DO's when they open up new schools at not-so-reputable places with no regard for residency slots. I know as a US student I shouldn't have problems matching, but I really have zero desire to be primary care, especially with the leftovers that the US MD seniors match doesn't fill. Also, I feel like any comfort that attendings try to provide for choosing this route is more of a reflection of the past ease DO's had as opposed to some indication of their future. I know they mean well, but I feel like the game is completely different now and will be even moreso in say 4-6 years.

I really want to be a doctor, but I don't want to have my 4 yrs and 3+ yrs of residency be a waste because some elite members of a small group ruined my profession by pursuing the McDonald's franchising strategy. By squeezing out the Caribbeans, I am afraid they will instead replace them. Maybe I've had too much time to think lately...but does anyone out there feel the same way I do?

I swear to you I am not trolling, but I am willing to bet at least one person will throw that accusation around. I have legitimate concerns and I just want to know if anyone else feels the same way. You may say I'm not 100% down to go DO because I have doubts, but if I end up spending 4 years and $200k, I'll be glad if my doubts stopped me before I made a huge financial mistake.
Members don't see this ad.
 
I hear you

Ism actually for the school increases

If we don't do a name change we have to increase enrollment

We also need a campaign to introduce do to the public....a simple commercial will suffice
 
se20001984 said:
I hear you

Ism actually for the school increases

If we don't do a name change we have to increase enrollment

We also need a campaign to introduce do to the public....a simple commercial will suffice
Click to expand...

There are many things that can be done to increase awareness of the DO degree and some of them should be done. I think it is good to bring some public awareness of DO
 
Members don't see this ad :)
beating_a_dead_horse.jpg
 
Cool story for a first post dude. I'm always skeptical of openers like this...

IMO if you have absolutely NO desire to go into primary care, then you shouldn't go into medicine. Just playing the numbers alone, most of us (MD or DO) will end up in primary care. That said, if you are that hesitant of going forward with all of this, don't go. If you want it enough none of the doom-n-gloom (and your post is all doom-n-gloom) will be enough to keep you from charging this adventure. Fear is a nice filter though, eh?
 
se20001984 said:
I hear you

Ism actually for the school increases

If we don't do a name change we have to increase enrollment

We also need a campaign to introduce do to the public....a simple commercial will suffice
Click to expand...

What name change would you suggest...?
 
se20001984 said:
I hear you

Ism actually for the school increases

If we don't do a name change we have to increase enrollment

We also need a campaign to introduce do to the public....a simple commercial will suffice
Click to expand...

There are some pretty sweet DO billboards here in Chicago. I've seen them ALL over the place.
 
Dear poster of horse

I think this idea of trolling is reaching its utter stupidity

Legit concerns of the profession must be addressed..this is needed to fix it
We cannot keep our heads in the sand forever

Problems are ment to be adressed...and many medical candidates are turning their back on the profession

The people we need to excell

We NEED a name change NOT for us but for our patients

Increasing enrollment is so far a postive sign
I would have not gone if i didnt see their was an increase
 
To the OP

I think u should ask the DO THESAME question

I would love to hear what he has said

In terms of recognition n the DO stigma
 
se20001984 said:
Dear poster of horse

I think this idea of trolling is reaching its utter stupidity

Legit concerns of the profession must be addressed..this is needed to fix it
We cannot keep our heads in the sand forever

Problems are ment to be adressed...and many medical candidates are turning their back on the profession
Click to expand...

:laugh: These "legit" concerns have been posted OVER and over and over and over... and over and over and over again, hence the awesome dead horse gif. Plus OPs concerns were more personal than collective... and one that has also been repeatedly posted ad nasuem.

Regardless, you want to have a go at changing the AOA, go for it. No one is against discussion of topics that will help improve our profession. Anyone who has half a clue knows very well of the status quo and very few burry their heads in any form of gravel, soil, or grain. However, something along the lines of this topic is posted once every few days and nothing new is being discussed, hence awesome horse beating scene.
 
qety432 said:
Do you guys ever have doubts about the future of the DO profession because you're unsure what AOA and COCA are going to do? I used to be really gung-ho about going DO...I shadowed one, got a letter of rec, was a big advocate for DO with my other pre-med colleagues, and was part of a DO club on campus. But I sometimes worry that they're more concerned about sheer numbers or DO's when they open up new schools at not-so-reputable places with no regard for residency slots. I know as a US student I shouldn't have problems matching, but I really have zero desire to be primary care, especially with the leftovers that the US MD seniors match doesn't fill. Also, I feel like any comfort that attendings try to provide for choosing this route is more of a reflection of the past ease DO's had as opposed to some indication of their future. I know they mean well, but I feel like the game is completely different now and will be even moreso in say 4-6 years.

I really want to be a doctor, but I don't want to have my 4 yrs and 3+ yrs of residency be a waste because some elite members of a small group ruined my profession by pursuing the McDonald's franchising strategy. By squeezing out the Caribbeans, I am afraid they will instead replace them. Maybe I've had too much time to think lately...but does anyone out there feel the same way I do?

I swear to you I am not trolling, but I am willing to bet at least one person will throw that accusation around. I have legitimate concerns and I just want to know if anyone else feels the same way. You may say I'm not 100% down to go DO because I have doubts, but if I end up spending 4 years and $200k, I'll be glad if my doubts stopped me before I made a huge financial mistake.
Click to expand...

I don't see what your problem is. You don't want FM, IM, Peds. then study hard for your boards and get into a non-primary care residency. No one is going to hand you a pgy spot on a silver platter-----this has no bearing on what your physician initials are. Secondly, US MD schools are expanding at a greater rate than COCA accredited schools and are even adopting the DO model of opening at institutions with low research while at the same time opening with the purpose of filling up primary care needs.

Cost cutting and austerity in general is being seen in almost every sector of the US and European economy. The elite of our society want to make sure that they are getting the greatest return on tax payer money as cuts are being adopted. Welcome to the real world.
 
Last edited:
Members don't see this ad :)
donkeykong1 said:
I don't see what your problem is. You don't want FM, IM, Peds. then study hard for your boards and get into a non-primary care residency. No one is going to hand you a pgy spot on a silver platter-----this has no bearing on what your physician initials are. Secondly, US MD schools are expanding at a greater rate than COCA accredited school and are even adopting the DO model of opening at institutions with low research while at the same time opening with the purpose of filling up primary care needs.

Cost cutting and austerity in general is being seen in almost every sector of the US and European economy. The elite of our society want to make sure that they are getting the greatest return on the tax payer money as cuts are being adopted. Welcome to the real world.
Click to expand...

True story, you can't have capitalism without one person/corp capitalizing on another person/corp (or "opportunity", since it sounds less greedy). Be like that sometimes :shrug:
 
The fact of the matter IS that the AOA is destroying osteopathic medicine. By demanding all this "separateness" they are doing a disservice to DO medical students. The AOA represents a small cohort of DOs. They sure as hell dont represent 90% of DO students/residents/physicians. They do all this preaching about "oh we are so different than you allopaths blah blah blah." Orly? So the 6 credits total of OMM training I got really makes me any different? Versus the 70 something I got of "allo" subjects. Hmm. The best part is, they have this separatist attitude, yet they basically depend on the ACGME to train half their students. "We are so much better than you allopaths, but wahh please please please dont disallow DOs to train in your fellowship programs." Ridiculous. A lot of people are all upset over the proposed ACGME changes with regard to needing to do an ACGME res to get an ACGME fellowship. But I hope that happens. Then maybe it will show the AOA that their separatist tactics are a lose lose situation. At this point in history, and with all the issues we have facing healthcare and GME this attitude is ridiculous. If the majority of DO grads used OMM, and if the majority of DO grads identified as being different I could see this. But that is not the case!!!

So yeah OP, you may be beating a dead horse....but I hear you. I have the same concerns, as do many other DO students. While I dont really see the point in having 2 separate medical degrees, I think changing the degree should come in last place in terms of changes. An attitude change on the part of the AOA is needed as is ONE GME system. The rest of that can come later.

The AOAs tactics are pushing many very qualified DOs over to the allopathic side because they just dont want to deal with the issues anymore. I will likely be one of them.
 
Your tuition money is not going to be useless. While everything going on isn't exactly ideal, I wouldn't discourage anyone from going to a DO school simply because he/she doesn't want to be in primary care. I went into school knowing I didn't want to go into primary care (sure a lot of people change their minds). A lot of my classmates WANT primary care, and they are going to match in primary care and it won't be because they didn't get ortho or rads. Here's the bottom line: go to school, work hard, match into the speciality of your choosing.
 
bigger issue (which has also been beaten to death... but is a MUCH larger concern)

The ACGME is changing their policies to protect their students. The requirements being placed on fellowships (ACGME approved intern year required) are meant to buffer the inc. US MD enrollment which inadvertently is pushing out DOs (and probably purposely pushing out IMG).

Here is the kicker... there are simply NOT enough AOA residency spots. Even considering the unfilled FM programs that no one wants. Enrollment in DO is skyrocketing with nothing being done on the back end. Now that said, GME funding is coming from Medicare/Medicaid, but the correct strategy would be to put on the brakes on enrollment, not hit the gas. The AOA doesn't realize this, or wont admit to it... but we NEED those Allo spots. That's why they loosened up and instantiated resolution 42 (and then a few years ago lightened up the resolution a bit further).

Our degree isn't in jeopardy... but i will say that the camels back will break soon. I don't know what the outcome will be, but the "separate but equal" crap only goes so far.
 
irJanus said:
bigger issue (which has also been beaten to death... but is a MUCH larger concern)

The ACGME is changing their policies to protect their students. The requirements being placed on fellowships (ACGME approved intern year required) are meant to buffer the inc. US MD enrollment which inadvertently is pushing out DOs (and probably purposely pushing out IMG).

Here is the kicker... there are simply NOT enough AOA residency spots. Even considering the unfilled FM programs that no one wants. Enrollment in DO is skyrocketing with nothing being done on the back end. Now that said, GME funding is coming from Medicare/Medicaid, but the correct strategy would be to put on the brakes on enrollment, not hit the gas. The AOA doesn't realize this, or wont admit to it... but we NEED those Allo spots. That's why they loosened up and instantiated resolution 42 (and then a few years ago lightened up the resolution a bit further).

Our degree isn't in jeopardy... but i will say that the camels back will break soon. I don't know what the outcome will be, but the "separate but equal" crap only goes so far.
Click to expand...

Alternatively you could say having more students increases the leverage for lobbying congress to increasing residency funding. Which we all agree has to happen if we're going to tackle this looming physician shortage crisis.
 
doom-n-gloom. no significant increase in GME funding is on the horizon. things are not as bad as a few are stating here either.
 
The world is better without doctors anyway. Survival of the fittest, let the weak and sick die so the rest of us can prosper.
 
irJanus said:
bigger issue (which has also been beaten to death... but is a MUCH larger concern)

The ACGME is changing their policies to protect their students. The requirements being placed on fellowships (ACGME approved intern year required) are meant to buffer the inc. US MD enrollment which inadvertently is pushing out DOs (and probably purposely pushing out IMG).

Here is the kicker... there are simply NOT enough AOA residency spots. Even considering the unfilled FM programs that no one wants. Enrollment in DO is skyrocketing with nothing being done on the back end. Now that said, GME funding is coming from Medicare/Medicaid, but the correct strategy would be to put on the brakes on enrollment, not hit the gas. The AOA doesn't realize this, or wont admit to it... but we NEED those Allo spots. That's why they loosened up and instantiated resolution 42 (and then a few years ago lightened up the resolution a bit further).

Our degree isn't in jeopardy... but i will say that the camels back will break soon. I don't know what the outcome will be, but the "separate but equal" crap only goes so far.
Click to expand...

the outcome within about a decade or so will be the following:

ACGME and AOA residency programs will all be accredited under a single organization (a joint ama-aoa task force has already been setup to form a common standard among all residency training programs). In this sense all the existing AOA spots will open up to MDs. COMLEX/USMLE will still differ with the additional OMM content, nevertheless comparing scores on either exam will become much easier and more accepting among PDs.
 
Being a newer member, this discussion is really informative! Thanks guys. I want to go DO and these issues have also been bothering me, since I want to go for pathology but the DO residency was dropped and I will be forced to go into an MD residency.

Is it true that DO's have better chances at MD residencies than low tier MD schools and carribean?
 
pathologyDO said:
Being a newer member, this discussion is really informative! Thanks guys. I want to go DO and these issues have also been bothering me, since I want to go for pathology but the DO residency was dropped and I will be forced to go into an MD residency.

Is it true that DO's have better chances at MD residencies than low tier MD schools and carribean?
Click to expand...


No to low tier US MD schools. Yes to Caribbean.
 
Hey can you guys tell me what exactly are the changes you are referring to above?
 
SoulinNeed said:
http://www.nejm.org/action/showImage?doi=10.1056%2FNEJMhpr1107519&iid=f01&

This doesn't include AOA spots. Things aren't that bad, stop believing every doom and gloom post on SDN (90% of all posts here on any subject, MD or DO, are doom and gloom).
Click to expand...

Their enrollment numbers are way off. In 2017 they predict only about 22,000 American grads, while the number will be closer to 26,000. In 2013 MD and DO matriculants will be about 20,300 and 6,600 respectively. With attrition there will still be over 25,500 grads by then. (Sources: 2011 AAMC enrollment survey and AACOM matriculant projections + the 3 new DO schools that will take about 160 students each).
 
pathologyDO said:
Being a newer member, this discussion is really informative! Thanks guys. I want to go DO and these issues have also been bothering me, since I want to go for pathology but the DO residency was dropped and I will be forced to go into an MD residency.

Is it true that DO's have better chances at MD residencies than low tier MD schools and carribean?
Click to expand...

As someone else said before, the general consensus is that MD = or > DO >>>>>>>>> Caribbean and as time goes on the difference between MD and DO will decrease while DO and Caribbean will only increase. It should also be noted that the DO stigma is fading fast as the old docs who cling to these retire.

I know there are very few absolutes, but one of them is you're certain to be far more successful as a DO than a Caribbean MD.

One thing that does worry me is the presence of what I think serenade describes as "wal-mart" schools. That is, small no-name or for profit programs that open up at an alarming rate. I worry that what happens is there will be a stratification in the DO schooling with good respected programs like MSUCOM/CCOM/PCOM/etc. being grouped in with these other programs.

This is not to say that these new schools aren't perfectly capable of producing a competent physician.

Either way - I don't see DOs having significant issues in the future, the same can't be said of Caribbean MDs who I think will experience almost the entirety of the things to come.
 
user3 said:
Their enrollment numbers are way off. In 2017 they predict only about 22,000 American grads, while the number will be closer to 26,000. In 2013 MD and DO matriculants will be about 20,300 and 6,600 respectively. With attrition there will still be over 25,500 grads by then. (Sources: 2011 AAMC enrollment survey and AACOM matriculant projections + the 3 new DO schools that will take about 160 students each).
Click to expand...
According to this projection by AACOM made in 2012, the expected matriculation in 2013 is 6054, and I'm pretty sure they took the new schools into account. http://www.aacom.org/data/Documents/New-matriculant-projections.pdf
 
UrshumMurshum said:
On the chart it says that projection is for currently accredited colleges only. (As of Jan 2012)

If you add in about 450 spots from the new schools you get around 6,500.
Click to expand...
I think that just means for the current year that they calculated, (2011-2012). It's not really clear, though, and what schools are expanding their classes at that rate?
 
Anyone have any idea what the current total number of OGME spots is (AOA spots also grow by about 100 spots a year, if that means anything)? Add that to the number of ACGME spots projected at the current rate (should be about 25,500-26,000 by 2017 [sorry, I don't really have much of an idea about years after that), and things shouldn't be THAT bad (even if their projected number of graduates are wrong). There will still be more DO+MD residency spots than DO + US MD graduates. It seems like things are going to become horrendous for FMG and IMG grads, however. Also, the matriculants after 2013 will have it even worse with all the new schools that will open after that, so something should be done.
 
SoulinNeed said:
Anyone have any idea what the current total number of OGME spots is (AOA spots also grow by about 100 spots a year, if that means anything)? Add that to the number of ACGME spots projected at the current rate (should be about 25,500-26,000 by 2017 [sorry, I don't really have much of an idea about years after that), and things shouldn't be THAT bad (even if their projected number of graduates are wrong). There will still be more DO+MD residency spots than DO + US MD graduates. It seems like things are going to become horrendous for FMG and IMG grads, however. Also, the matriculants after 2013 will have it even worse with all the new schools that will open after that, so something should be done.
Click to expand...

26,107 ACGME positions offered for 2010-2011
(http://www.acgme.org/acWebsite/dataBook/2010-2011_ACGME_Data_Resource_Book.pdf)

2,069 AOA positions offered for 2012-2013http://www.natmatch.com/aoairp/stats/2011prgstats.htm
http://www.natmatch.com/aoairp/summpos.htm

Plus ~750 Military positions
 
Last edited:
user3 said:
26,107 ACGME positions offered for 2010-2011
(http://www.acgme.org/acWebsite/dataBook/2010-2011_ACGME_Data_Resource_Book.pdf)

2,069 AOA positions offered for 2012-2013
http://www.natmatch.com/aoairp/summpos.htm

Plus ~750 Military positions
Click to expand...
That AOA link says 2011, and the total spots are 2553, or am I misreading here? And according to this http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2012.pdf, the total number of PGY1 ACGME spots is 24,034 (an extra 2,738 PGY2) spots for a total of 26,772 spots. That ACGME info is the most up to date that you're going to find.
 
The fellowship restriction is not that big
 
OK, so here is how my math is working right now, since that NEJM graph doesn't seem to be reliable.

Let's say that in 2017 that there are 25,500 MD+DO graduates (everyone cool with that number?)

There are currently 26,778 total ACGME spots. Those grow at about 500 spots a year (though, it seemed to have grown by almost 700 spots this year), so let's say by 2017, there are 29,200 spots. Right now, there are 2,069 AOA positions (not counting Internships). They typically grow by about 100 spots a year, but a decent minority of that number are Internships. Let's say, by 2017, there are 2,200 or 2,300 AOA spots.

So, in 2017, there will be 25,500 DO+ US MD grads, with about 31,400 AOA+ ACGME residency spots, assuming current level residency growth. Is everyone happy with my math, or have anything to add?
 
SoulinNeed said:
OK, so here is how my math is working right now, since that NEJM graph doesn't seem to be reliable.

Let's say that in 2017 that there are 25,500 MD+DO graduates (everyone cool with that number?)

There are currently 26,778 total ACGME spots. Those grow at about 500 spots a year (though, it seemed to have grown by almost 700 spots this year), so let's say by 2017, there are 29,200 spots. Right now, there are 2,069 AOA positions (not counting Internships). They typically grow by about 100 spots a year, but a decent minority of that number are Internships. Let's say, by 2017, there are 2,200 or 2,300 AOA spots.

So, in 2017, there will be 25,500 DO+ US MD grads, with about 31,400 AOA+ ACGME residency spots, assuming current level residency growth. Is everyone happy with my math, or have anything to add?
Click to expand...

Your ACGME numbers include the PGY-1 only positions. We want the number of positions that lead to specialty certification (pipeline positions). The most recent data for that is in my link for 2010-2011, it is not in the 2012 NRMP report. That link you cited does not include pre-matches or SF Match/AUA Match, etc.
 
I just want to go on record and state that this thread is a joke. This may have been relevant 10 years ago, but really, time would be much better spent on wondering how to bring the osteopathic philosophy to the general public. I almost hope OP is trolling...
 
user3 said:
Your ACGME numbers include the PGY-1 only positions. We want the number of positions that lead to specialty certification (pipeline positions). The most recent data for that is in my link for 2010-2011, it is not in the 2012 NRMP report. That link you cited does not include pre-matches or SF Match/AUA Match, etc.
Click to expand...
Pre-matches aren't allowed anymore.

According to the NRMP 2012 report, there are 24,034 PGY1 positions and 2,738 PGY2 positions for a total of 26,778 positions, which makes sense for 2012, considering the growth in residency spots. The SF match/AUA match is pretty small compared to the total numbers, but add them in, if you want.
 
SoulinNeed said:
Pre-matches aren't allowed anymore.

According to the NRMP 2012 report, there are 24,034 PGY1 positions and 2,738 PGY2 positions. The SF match/AUA match is pretty small compared to the total numbers, but add them in, if you want.
Click to expand...

I believe this was the last year for pre-matches. My link has the total number of ACGME pipeline positions for 2010-2011, and that is the most recent and comprehensive report that has been released.
 
user3 said:
I believe this was the last year for pre-matches. My link has the total number of ACGME pipeline positions for 2010-2011, and that is the most recent and comprehensive report that has been released.
Click to expand...
Yeah, 2010-2011. This report tells you the total number of PGY1 and PGY2 positions (26,778) for 2012. Anyway, I'm looking to see if anyone has any problems with my premise, because my numbers paint a relatively rosy picture of the situation.
 
se20001984 said:
To the OP

I think u should ask the DO THESAME question

I would love to hear what he has said

In terms of recognition n the DO stigma
Click to expand...

Yes, the same question should be done. I agree with you. :thumbup:
 
SoulinNeed said:
OK, so here is how my math is working right now, since that NEJM graph doesn't seem to be reliable.

Let's say that in 2017 that there are 25,500 MD+DO graduates (everyone cool with that number?)

There are currently 26,778 total ACGME spots. Those grow at about 500 spots a year (though, it seemed to have grown by almost 700 spots this year), so let's say by 2017, there are 29,200 spots. Right now, there are 2,069 AOA positions (not counting Internships). They typically grow by about 100 spots a year, but a decent minority of that number are Internships. Let's say, by 2017, there are 2,200 or 2,300 AOA spots.

So, in 2017, there will be 25,500 DO+ US MD grads, with about 31,400 AOA+ ACGME residency spots, assuming current level residency growth. Is everyone happy with my math, or have anything to add?
Click to expand...

I believe right now U.S. allopathic schools are projecting having ~20,000 M.D. students matriculating this cycle. If you add in the 6,500 osteopathic students also matriculating this cycle, you'll get 26,500.

I don't know about that 500 growth per year, it's stayed pretty much around 25,000 slots for a long time. Perhaps there is some growth but I'd have to see the numbers over time.

Certainly if it stays around its current number you're going to get ~26,000 U.S. graduates for ~29,000 slots. (Including the AOA numbers). However if you throw in IMGS from all over the world (not just the Caribbean) you realize that it's going to be very close. And certainly there's going to be a heavy saturation for the desirable specialties.
 
UrshumMurshum said:
I believe right now U.S. allopathic schools are projecting having ~20,000 M.D. students matriculating this cycle. If you add in the 6,500 osteopathic students also matriculating this cycle, you'll get 26,500.

I don't know about that 500 growth per year, it's stayed pretty much around 25,000 slots for a long time. Perhaps there is some growth but I'd have to see the numbers over time.

Certainly if it stays around its current number you're going to get ~26,000 U.S. graduates for ~29,000 slots. (Including the AOA numbers). However if you throw in IMGS from all over the world (not just the Caribbean) you realize that it's going to be very close. And certainly there's going to be a heavy saturation for the desirable specialties.
Click to expand...
The 25,500 number includes the attrition rate that must be factored in (a decent number of matriculants always drop out), but, let's make it 26,000 because there are about 4 MD schools opening in 2013. People on SDN believe that ACGME (and AOA) spots are stagnant, but they're not. For ACGME, in 2010, there were 25,520 total positions, in 2011, there were 26,158 total positions, and in 2012, there are now 26,778 total positions. AOA has been increasing by about 100 spots a year, and will likely continue to grow (going by the provisional accreditation that AOA has granted many programs).

IMG match rate has been going down in recent years, so they are likely to suffer. As a result, it's not difficult to believe that there will be about a bit under 26,000 total US graduates in 2017, with a bit more than 31,300 total positions. That also doesn't include the military match or the SF/AUA match, but those are minor, and this also doesn't include AOA internships, but screw those, lol.
 
Last edited:
SoulinNeed said:
The 25,500 number includes the attrition rate that must be factored in (a decent number of matriculants always drop out), but, let's make it 26,000 because there are about 4 MD schools opening in 2013. People on SDN believe that ACGME (and AOA) spots are stagnant, but they're not. For ACGME, in 2010, there were 25,520 total positions, in 2011, there were 26,158 total positions, and in 2012, there are now 26,778 total positions. AOA has been increasing by about 100 spots a year, and will likely continue to grow (going by the provisional accreditation that AOA has granted many programs).

IMG match rate has been going down in recent years, so they are likely to suffer. As a result, it's not difficult to believe that there will be about a bit under 26,000 total US graduates in 2017, with a bit more than 31,300 total positions. That also doesn't include the military match or the SF/AUA match, but those are minor, and this also doesn't include AOA internships, but screw those, lol.
Click to expand...

If what you say is true, then perhaps this issue will in fact take care of itself. I'm still a little bit skeptical though given the sentiments expressed by current students (MD and DO) about the state of things. The math does work out, but I bet it works out mostly for people pursuing less competitive fields.

For me I'm interested in only internal medicine so I should be ok.
 
Dharma said:
Cool story for a first post dude. I'm always skeptical of openers like this...

IMO if you have absolutely NO desire to go into primary care, then you shouldn't go into medicine. Just playing the numbers alone, most of us (MD or DO) will end up in primary care. That said, if you are that hesitant of going forward with all of this, don't go. If you want it enough none of the doom-n-gloom (and your post is all doom-n-gloom) will be enough to keep you from charging this adventure. Fear is a nice filter though, eh?
Click to expand...

That's stupid and makes no sense
 
HalfListic said:
I just want to go on record and state that this thread is a joke. This may have been relevant 10 years ago, but really, time would be much better spent on wondering how to bring the osteopathic philosophy to the general public. I almost hope OP is trolling...
Click to expand...

Who cares? What osteopathic philosophy? I still don't understand what this means and it certainly doesn't need to be brought to the general public.

Even if every single person in the U.S knew what a DO was it still wouldn't change anything. Our chances for competitive residencies would be the same, our income would be the same, our loan debt would be the same, and the prestige of being a physician would be the same. I don't care that my patients don't know what a DO is because I will still have plenty of patients. The only way this changes is if we flood the market with half-assed DO's and MD's from this ridiculous expansion.
 
WDeagle said:
That's stupid and makes no sense
Click to expand...

To each his own skippy; it's just an opinion. Intelligent and thoughtful response on your behalf though ;)

Anyhow, close to half of us will be going the route of primary care, whether we like it or not, and I bet more than a few in the past have had to settle for it (initially having NO desire) after their dream of going into another field fizzled away as reality set in. I guess one doesn't have to have a desire per se, but one should be aware that there is a pretty good chance he will end up in primary care, and if that is a problem, maybe such an individual should rethink his path. All-in-all it's simply an opinion and food for thought.
 
UrshumMurshum said:
If what you say is true, then perhaps this issue will in fact take care of itself. I'm still a little bit skeptical though given the sentiments expressed by current students (MD and DO) about the state of things. The math does work out, but I bet it works out mostly for people pursuing less competitive fields.

For me I'm interested in only internal medicine so I should be ok.
Click to expand...
Well, that's because things are getting worse in the sense that there will be less spots per applicant (things will become horrendous for Carib grads), but it's not as bad as people make it sound. And like always, many of the new programs will be in primary care (because that's where the need is). Although, I will say that AOA has been making a real effort lately to expand into more competitive fields.
 
WDeagle said:
Who cares? What osteopathic philosophy? I still don't understand what this means and it certainly doesn't need to be brought to the general public.

Even if every single person in the U.S knew what a DO was it still wouldn't change anything. Our chances for competitive residencies would be the same, our income would be the same, our loan debt would be the same, and the prestige of being a physician would be the same. I don't care that my patients don't know what a DO is because I will still have plenty of patients. The only way this changes is if we flood the market with half-assed DO's and MD's from this ridiculous expansion.
Click to expand...

i think one of the MD instructors at my school said it best when discussing the osteopathic philosophy (treating the whole patient, being open to all available therapies, having a good base in primary care regardless of specialty etc)...... "the osteopathic philosophy used to be what we called being a good doctor"
 
WDeagle said:
Who cares? What osteopathic philosophy? I still don't understand what this means and it certainly doesn't need to be brought to the general public.

Even if every single person in the U.S knew what a DO was it still wouldn't change anything. Our chances for competitive residencies would be the same, our income would be the same, our loan debt would be the same, and the prestige of being a physician would be the same. I don't care that my patients don't know what a DO is because I will still have plenty of patients. The only way this changes is if we flood the market with half-assed DO's and MD's from this ridiculous expansion.
Click to expand...

Yeah that post annoyed me as well. "Osteopathic philosophy" lmao....hilarious.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Next unread thread

Similar threads

D
Best D.O. matches ever
Replies
22
Views
3K
Bluesandstuff
B
R
when did you guys receive interviews after completion?
Replies
11
Views
2K
chuxi
chuxi
mmiller1998
Having lots of doubt about Med school
Replies
10
Views
2K
mmiller1998
mmiller1998
The Last Reclaimer
This is my MCAT plan, what do you guys think
Replies
1
Views
3K
DO_or_Die
D
D
Hey guys, did I just mess up my whole DO cycle/application?
Replies
3
Views
929
bears1992
bears1992
Top