Do you have to list your race/ethnicity when applying to residency?

[rodmichael82]

I've honestly always hated the idea of race/ethnicity playing any role in applications especially medical school. I believe that a person should be able to stand out based on their merit, hard work and experience. I know it plays little to no role when applying to residency. Even then my question is that when I apply for residency in a couple years will I have to list my race/ethnicity? Thanks!

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[Stellar Clouds]

You can put "prefer not to say," but you do have to submit a photo...

 

[rodmichael82]

You can put "prefer not to say," but you do have to submit a photo...

Does "Prefer not to say" put an applicant at a disadvantage?

 

[drotoman]

I've honestly always hated the idea of race/ethnicity playing any role in applications especially medical school. I believe that a person should be able to stand out based on their merit, hard work and experience. I know it plays little to no role when applying to residency. Even then my question is that when I apply for residency in a couple years will I have to list my race/ethnicity? Thanks!

I don't understand why you believe your race/ethnicity will adversely affect your candidacy. It's possible that a person's race may influence a prospective employer at a subconscious level, but you have way more important things to worry about like getting good grades and doing well on your boards. So get the priorities in the right order first. Besides, just like someone else said, you will have to submit a portrait picture on ERAS anyway, and it wouldn't be too difficult for your residency programs to figure out what race/ethnicity you belong to. If you want to choose "prefer not to say", that's fine too. But this matter shouldn't be something you need to lose sleep over.

 

[TAWS]

I think people misunderstand why race is asked on forms. It's to ensure one race isn't being systemically discriminated against. For example, how are you going to tell one hospital isn't hiring blacks on purpose when you don't track data on the race of applicants?

 

[PrideNeverDie]

I think people misunderstand why race is asked on forms. It's to ensure one race isn't being systemically discriminated against. For example, how are you going to tell one hospital isn't hiring blacks on purpose when you don't track data on the race of applicants?

actually, it is to ensure that whites and asians get discriminated against

 

[DrOwnage]

In all honesty our system is flawed. Applications should benefit the socioeconomically challenged, not ethnicity. After all it's education that bridges the gap between economically disadvantaged. I'm sick of people of certain races getting preference with lower credentials and then find out they live in a rich community and drive a BMW M5.

Also, if you are accepted into medical school and receive a scholarship (which most ethnic applicants do), afterwards you should not get any special treatment in residency IMHO. You are at the same level and most likely have much less debt than me, now you're telling me you have an advantage at the highest level of competition in the professional world (which is entirely based on intelligence and hard work)?

If there is a preference in residency to fulfill a quota/ratio (which I'm not sure if there is), that's pretty sad in my opinion.

 

[deleted480308]

Or we could just ensure less discrimination by not allowing people to ask or requiring a picture. Then you literally are scores and a statement...no race

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

In all honesty our system is flawed. Applications should benefit the socioeconomically challenged, not ethnicity. After all it's education that bridges the gap between economically disadvantaged. I'm sick of people of certain races getting preference with lower credentials and then find out they live in a rich community and drive a BMW M5.

Also, if you are accepted into medical school and receive a scholarship (which most ethnic applicants do), afterwards you should not get any special treatment in residency IMHO. You are at the same level and most likely have much less debt than me, now you're telling me you have an advantage at the highest level of competition in the professional world (which is entirely based on intelligence and hard work)?

If there is a preference in residency to fulfill a quota/ratio (which I'm not sure if there is), that's pretty sad in my opinion.

Can you not drag the URM crap over into the allo forum? Go rage with the pre-meds over in pre-allo if you need to.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfwz3pHuJdE[/YOUTUBE]

 

[DrOwnage]

Can you not drag the URM crap over into the allo forum? Go rage with the pre-meds over in pre-allo if you need to.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfwz3pHuJdE[/YOUTUBE]

You could make a legitimate counter argument instead of telling me to post somewhere else... Tell me how my argument is not valid?

 

[TAWS]

Also, if you are accepted into medical school and receive a scholarship (which most ethnic applicants do), afterwards you should not get any special treatment in residency IMHO. You are at the same level and most likely have much less debt than me, now you're telling me you have an advantage at the highest level of competition in the professional world (which is entirely based on intelligence and hard work)? .

You sound too bitter to be a doctor. The admissions process is supposed to be holistic. If your first thought at the sight of a black doctor is that he got to become a doctor through Affirmative Action and is therefore less intelligent, then something is wrong with you.

 

[PrideNeverDie]

You sound too bitter to be a doctor. The admissions process is supposed to be holistic. If your first thought at the sight of a black doctor is that he got to become a doctor through Affirmative Action and is therefore less intelligent, then something is wrong with you.

he's stating the truth that being black or mexican is an advantage over a white or asian in the same socioeconomic situation

i think you are jumping to conclusions by assuming that just because Affirmative Action is unfair that everyone thinks a black doctor is less intelligent. he never mentioned anything about black doctors being less intelligent.

what he said was that it is unfair that blacks or mexicans receive higher medical school acceptance rates, increased financial help in the form of scholarships, and preferential residency positions based on the color of their skin instead of intelligence and hard work.

to calvnandhobbes: it is interesting that you would be so quick to dismiss a racial issue regarding medical school admissions. would you feel the same way if it was blacks and mexicans who were unfairly discriminated against instead of whites and asians?

 

[DrOwnage]

he's stating the truth that being black or mexican is an advantage over a white or asian in the same socioeconomic situation

i think you are jumping to conclusions by assuming that just because Affirmative Action is unfair that everyone thinks a black doctor is less intelligent. he never mentioned anything about black doctors being less intelligent.

what he said was that it is unfair that blacks or mexicans receive higher medical school acceptance rates, increased financial help in the form of scholarships, and preferential residency positions based on the color of their skin instead of intelligence and hard work.

to calvnandhobbes: it is interesting that you would be so quick to dismiss a racial issue regarding medical school admissions. would you feel the same way if it was blacks and mexicans who were unfairly discriminated against instead of whites and asians?

Thank you. People tend to jump to conclusions when race is involved rather than looking at all sides of the argument. I am in no context a racist, in fact I have more ethnic friends than white ones. I just don't like preferential treatment for the wrong reasons and I have tended to see it and wonder how/when it is going to change.

 

[TheMedLife]

I'm already in medical school...why would I care if anybody is getting preference getting into medical school? I've seen very little evidence that race is actually big factor in residency applications (there's lots of ancedotal stories each way) so who cares about the OP in the first place.

Sitting around theorizing on SDN doesn't do anything about it. That's why we have 30 page arguments on pre-allo about this same crap. I'd suggest going over there and arguing with the pre-meds about it if that's what you want to do. Let's not turn the allo forum into the junk that's in the pre-allo forum.

I think the most evidence for race playing any factor at all into residency application is that they require you to select your ethnicity AND supply a picture. Not saying there is any discrimination happening but it's odd they require a face with a name along with all of your scores to make the decision to interview you.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

I think the most evidence for race playing any factor at all into residency application is that they require you to select your ethnicity AND supply a picture. Not saying there is any discrimination happening but it's odd they require a face with a name along with all of your scores to make the decision to interview you.

Wat...or they just want to remember who you are out of the people they interviewed. Humans are much better at remembering faces than random names. If I had met someone once I wouldn't remember what their name was either.

 

[PrideNeverDie]

I'm already in medical school...why would I care if anybody is getting preference getting into medical school? I've seen very little evidence that race is actually big factor in residency applications (there's lots of ancedotal stories each way) so who cares about the OP in the first place.

Sitting around theorizing on SDN doesn't do anything about it. That's why we have 30 page arguments on pre-allo about this same crap. I'd suggest going over there and arguing with the pre-meds about it if that's what you want to do. Let's not turn the allo forum into the junk that's in the pre-allo forum.

data was compiled from the AAMC statistics found here: https://www.aamc.org/data/facts/app...mcat-gpa-grid-by-selected-race-ethnicity.html

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

data was compiled from the AAMC statistics found here: https://www.aamc.org/data/facts/app...mcat-gpa-grid-by-selected-race-ethnicity.html

Oh didn't realize those numbers were for residency...oh wait.

So that was totally useless.

 

[John Lannister]

What does the MCAT have to do with residency apps?

 

[John Lannister]

In all honesty our system is flawed. Applications should benefit the socioeconomically challenged, not ethnicity. After all it's education that bridges the gap between economically disadvantaged. I'm sick of people of certain races getting preference with lower credentials and then find out they live in a rich community and drive a BMW M5.

Also, if you are accepted into medical school and receive a scholarship (which most ethnic applicants do), afterwards you should not get any special treatment in residency IMHO. You are at the same level and most likely have much less debt than me, now you're telling me you have an advantage at the highest level of competition in the professional world (which is entirely based on intelligence and hard work)?

If there is a preference in residency to fulfill a quota/ratio (which I'm not sure if there is), that's pretty sad in my opinion.

Yeah, socioeconomics matter most and the system is flawed.

Oh well, what can you do other than complain on SDN?

 

[KnuxNole]

Yeah, socioeconomics matter most and the system is flawed.

Oh well, what can you do other than complain on SDN?

lol....that's true for over 90% of arguments. People can complain about various things or flaws, but they can't make any impacts whatsoever.

 

[FunnyCurrent]

Oh didn't realize those numbers were for residency...oh wait.

So that was totally useless.

I suppose one could make the argument that an increased rate of acceptance at "brand name" schools provides an advantage to students when applying to residency. Nevertheless, there are less than seven african-american/hispanic-american med students at my institution so I would argue that affirmative action has little impact.

I will not comment directly on affirmative action however we should strive for a meritocracy.

 

[Pons Asinorum]

I suppose one could make the argument that an increased rate of acceptance at "brand name" schools provides an advantage to students when applying to residency. Nevertheless, there are less than seven african-american/hispanic-american med students at my institution so I would argue that affirmative action has little impact.

I will not comment directly on affirmative action however we should strive for a meritocracy.

All this time I thought you went to DGSOM. There are many more than your above stat at UCLA in each class. Otherwise, back to the argument.

 

[Postal]

In all honesty our system is flawed. Applications should benefit the socioeconomically challenged, not ethnicity. After all it's education that bridges the gap between economically disadvantaged. I'm sick of people of certain races getting preference with lower credentials and then find out they live in a rich community and drive a BMW M5.

Also, if you are accepted into medical school and receive a scholarship (which most ethnic applicants do), afterwards you should not get any special treatment in residency IMHO. You are at the same level and most likely have much less debt than me, now you're telling me you have an advantage at the highest level of competition in the professional world (which is entirely based on intelligence and hard work)?

If there is a preference in residency to fulfill a quota/ratio (which I'm not sure if there is), that's pretty sad in my opinion.

HA! I wish lol

That is all I had to add to this conversation.

Please resume

 

[PrideNeverDie]

can anyone find statistics on race and residency positions

according to the AAMC, 6.8% of med students are black and 8.8% of med students are hispanic in 2012

SOURCE: https://www.aamc.org/download/321540/data/2012factstable31.pdf

from 2001-2008, 4.0% of orthopedic residents were black and 3.8% were hispanic

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21938358

however, it doesn't tell you much unless you can compare acceptance percentage of applicants with similar applications

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

can anyone find statistics on race and residency positions

according to the AAMC, 6.8% of med students are black and 8.8% of med students are hispanic in 2012

SOURCE: https://www.aamc.org/download/321540/data/2012factstable31.pdf

from 2001-2008, 4.0% of orthopedic residents were black and 3.8% were hispanic

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21938358

however, it doesn't tell you much unless you can compare acceptance percentage of applicants with similar applications

You're never going to get those numbers unless residency programs suddenly start releasing lists of the applicants they ranked. Even the NRMP doesn't break anything down by race.

 

[Donald Juan]

Can you not drag the URM crap over into the allo forum? Go rage with the pre-meds over in pre-allo if you need to.

I was always thought the URM thing was a load of BS before I started med school. I'll agree, I have some idealistic problems with it, but once I started med school at Georgia's only state school, and realized that my state, which is 30% black, has only 5% black med students, I stopped being so worried about those 10 students getting an advantage (if they even did).

As far as residency, race identification, and pictures, you have to interview, so does it really make a difference?

 

[rodmichael82]

Woah woah guys keep the URM debate out of my thread please. This is Allo not Pre-Allo come on now.

 

[Oluedo]

Oh didn't realize those numbers were for residency...oh wait.

So that was totally useless.

I have a question for you. Based on what criteria do you think the Asians with a 24-26 MCAT and a 3.4-4.59 GPA were accepted?

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

I have a question for you. Based on what criteria do you think the 15.1% of Asians with a 24-26 MCAT and a 3.4-4.59 GPA were accepted?

wat

 

[John Lannister]

Woah woah guys keep the URM debate out of my thread please. This is Allo not Pre-Allo come on now.

No kidding.

Why do you guys care about this stuff so much?

Fast forward 10 years: "Look at all those &*&^*%! minorities that are department heads, WTF man!?"

 

[evilbooyaa]

URM is a significantly bigger issue for those trying to enter medical school than it is for those entering residency. At least as far as we can know. And we can never really know since everyone's stats aren't publicly available like the stats from med schools are and PrideNeverDie has already posted.

So basically, this is a lot of hubbub over nothing. Maybe once you become a PD, you can change it. For what it's worth, NRMP doesn't put an applicant's race in something that matters to them (IIRC). That being said, even if PDs do something like that, I highly doubt they would admit it.

For those bemoaning the system, what is something we can do as med students to change the process? I can only imagine that things like this are fixable from the other side of the aisle, if they're an issue at all.