Do you resent URM's?

[Shredder]

Yes the poll question is messed up but I think the intent is clear.

i agree with bretts assessment of the situation--in spite of the slightly misleading poll title, the content of the OP and subsequent posts clear things up as needed

but i see your point of view as well napoleon, makes sense. i just dont think the thread was contrived with that intent and shouldnt be construed as such. perhaps i would feel differently if i were a urm. but im not an orm either, im a "model minority", however i dont want to open that pandoras box. i suppose the compromised solution would be to modify the thread title or poll phrasing if needed, but that may be impractical and in light of that i dont know if closing is a more appropriate answer

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[Shredder]

Aside from the obvious, what is the intent?

IMO an anonymous poll is a much better way to reveal true feelings about urms in a premed context (urm is a premed acronym anyway for the most part) than a public thread where ppl fear pc police. and revealing the presence of those feelings is a first step toward finding remedies for whatever gives rise to them. considering the fact that urm isnt much used as a phrase outside of admissions, i think the thread and poll title might be all right actually. the proper phrase in the real world would be "minorities"

 

[Sicilian]

Sure this topic has been iterated a thousand times, but there's a reason, and it's because there is some real resentment out there.

I have no problem with affirmative action. I do have a problem with its implementation. Some URMs who grew up as wealthy, private-schooled elites get preference over the truly disadvantanged inner city left-behinds, which is a damn shame. I have no problem giving up my "spot" on an acceptance list to someone whose family escaped segregation and Jim Crow laws less than a half century ago, but i do have a problem seeing acceptances being flung left and right at the Nigerian Ambassador's son (or equivalent, which I've personally witnessed). It completely defeats the purpose of these programs.

Good point. A certain % of URMs may abuse the "privilege" so to speak, but there's plenty of non-URM's out there using connections/wealth etc. to get an acceptance. Of course, it says a lot more about your character if you actually put in the time & effort and were rewarded correspondingly, but face it, if you have six mill to spare, or daddy's high-power connections on standby, the pressure is, well, a lot less.

 

[DrHuang]

George Bush don't care about URM!!!!!!!

hahaha best reply yet!

 

[WholeLottaGame7]

I, too, think this topic is not going to be productive, because how many people are going to A)change their minds, or even B)learn something new, or C) take anything away from this conversation. In my opinion, it's just an anonymous way to get frustrations off people's chests, which is good and bad. Good for them psychologically, maybe, but bad for the rest of us who have nothing better to do and end up reading that trash.

The ironic part is that in the real world, I can't imagine this **** ever happening. I would never see a classmate and automatically assume they got in with a lower GPA or MCAT unless they gave me reason to think that way. And skin color is not such a reason. Maybe some people would, but I seriously doubt they would ever have one of these "discussions," or at least a "discussion" of the level found on SDN, with a URM face-to-face or in public. This is one of those topics that people only talk about on anonymous internet forums or while drinking beer with their buddies and slapping each other on the @ss for having "brilliant" ideas.

 

[veenut]

do i resent URMs? not particularly, but i sure resent URM threads!

the only productive thing that comes out of URM threads is you have a clearer picture of who the real a-holes are.

 

[deleted50541]

do i resent URMs? not particularly, but i sure resent URM threads!

the only productive thing that comes out of URM threads is you have a clearer picture of who the real a-holes are.

I couldn't agree with you more.

 

[wm103099]

I can't believe that most of the people at this point have voted that they do resent URMs. Admissions proceedures are what they are, and dwelling upon this issue is stupid.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

i think the more valid question would be "do you resent the fact that adcoms tend to give special consideration to URMs". I would hope nobody intelligent enough to be here wouldnt resent someone for their ethnicity but rather would have beef with schools "recruiting" URMs, which we have no control over...

i think people are responding as if that was the question actually asked. I agree few people would ever resent a URM based on ethnicity alone

 

[Psycho Doctor]

I can't believe that most of the people at this point have voted that they do resent URMs. Admissions proceedures are what they are, and dwelling upon this issue is stupid.

just because a decision is made doesn't mean people can't voice their opinion. Bush is president (it is what it is); that never stopped millions of people everyday resenting it and stating that very clearly.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

You must not know any democrats...haha....many democrats i know are unable to have a rational discussion about politics...one conservative word and you are christened (no pun intened) an evil evil republican with no morality

especially on discussion boards

 

[Psycho Doctor]

Sure this topic has been iterated a thousand times, but there's a reason, and it's because there is some real resentment out there.

I have no problem with affirmative action. I do have a problem with its implementation. Some URMs who grew up as wealthy, private-schooled elites get preference over the truly disadvantanged inner city left-behinds, which is a damn shame. I have no problem giving up my "spot" on an acceptance list to someone whose family escaped segregation and Jim Crow laws less than a half century ago, but i do have a problem seeing acceptances being flung left and right at the Nigerian Ambassador's son (or equivalent, which I've personally witnessed). It completely defeats the purpose of these programs.

totally agree but the misuse of this law is never going to change and those who take advantage of it should be treated as if they are committing fraud

 

[Psycho Doctor]

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, PLEASE LOCK, CLOSE THIS THREAD.

Tell us how you really feel.

lol

are it mostly URMs who are demanding this thread be closed>?

 

[MissMary]

I am honestly perplexed that something of this nature has not been overturned in the courts. The last time I checked, it was supposed to be equal treatment and advancement based upon your qualifications, without consideration for the color of ones skin.

your jealousy is so ugly....

 

[Psycho Doctor]

At least change the question to something that doesn't read "Do you hold a grudge against certain entire races?" I can't believe all these people are responding Yes to such a poorly worded question, anti-AA or not.

people are reading through the lines, knowing the OP actually meant do people resent the policy that gives advantage to URMs.

 

[Blake]

lol

are it mostly URMs who are demanding this thread be closed>?

Would it be too much to ask you to keep your comments to only one message ? The ''edit button'' is your friend.

Back to the topic. Of course I resent them. Why ? They're breathing the white men's air away !!!!

(Chappelle's fans will understand this ). Ridiculous thread, but not surprised at all. Doctors are humans, after all.

 

[MarzMD]

I appreciate this thread and all of the others like it. It is only reaffirming my thoughts that I would like an HBCU medical school much better.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

Would it be too much to ask you to keep your comments to only one message ? The ''edit button'' is your friend.

so should I read three pages of posts and keep saving the quotes and then do a copy and paste all on one post??? that is insane!

and by using the edit button as my friend, I should use edit 12 times to respond to 6 posts???? NO WAY, Time is also my friend, a somewhat more needy one. Feel free to ignore my posts, that is an option. Better yet put me on ignore if you are so offended because I refuse to change unless there are two posts in a row on the same issue or one is quoting another...and I already do that.

in addition why does no one realize that "threaded view" is a viewing option and people who look at it in that manner will never see a response to their post (because it'as 6 trees away from their post in a convoluted format)??? why can't intelligent pre-meds ever seem to understand that simple concept?????????????

 

[Blake]

Maybe you're more intelligent than the entire SDN community, who knows ?

 

[MollyMalone]

hmm, well youre officially in my good books unicorn. democrats and rationality in the same sentence? you must be kidding. i learned this long ago. if you reveal one right wing tendency, be prepared for a slew of insults, emotions, and flawed reasonings. and cries for censorship--its not in fact the right that does the censoring. witness the outcries in this thread already. theres a good chance theyll be heeded, depending on how libertarian the sdn government is. for the record, its the right that: donates more, exhibits more morals, and enacts policies that actually help urms get off their feet. to mention a quote, sympathy means helping a person get out of the gutter, not lying down there with him

Whoa, watch it there. Pretty soon we're going to need a "Do you resent liberals" poll.

 

[MarzMD]

For all of those that chose "I resent URM". a)Do you think that diversifying the field of medicine is a good thing/major problem in the US. If so then b)How do you suggest we as a country do so?

This is a real question. I want to know your perspective on this.

*Also, I suggest all of you who voted "I resent URM" to either not apply to your state schools, or not tell them you are a state resident. Otherwise, you may look like a hypocrite.

 

[femmedargent]

totally agree but the misuse of this law is never going to change and those who take advantage of it should be treated as if they are committing fraud

People are going to take advantage of whatever system is in place however they can- it is up to the system to be changed so that this can't happen. Secondly, the only thing the URM is doing differently on his app is checking off the "URM" box - it is the school's job to interpret this information. The SCHOOLS are the ones who are at fault here- THEY destroy the very important distinction between disadvantage and mere skin-color difference by saying "well, URM is URM is URM" -obviously untrue.

 

[Bernito]

I dont think I have been this disappointed in a long time. Well at least I now have an idea of what my fellow students will be like...

Every applicant has some kind of volunteering or activity on their resume, to show they they are commited to helping those that need it. This just proves that it is all BS, its no wonder that while all applicants volunteer, very few doctors give any of their time.

If anything at least this thread has proven that in fact URM recruitment is needed b/c of so much underlying resentment.

 

[femmedargent]

I, too, think this topic is not going to be productive, because how many people are going to A)change their minds, or even B)learn something new, or C) take anything away from this conversation. In my opinion, it's just an anonymous way to get frustrations off people's chests, which is good and bad. Good for them psychologically, maybe, but bad for the rest of us who have nothing better to do and end up reading that trash.

The ironic part is that in the real world, I can't imagine this **** ever happening. I would never see a classmate and automatically assume they got in with a lower GPA or MCAT unless they gave me reason to think that way. And skin color is not such a reason. Maybe some people would, but I seriously doubt they would ever have one of these "discussions," or at least a "discussion" of the level found on SDN, with a URM face-to-face or in public. This is one of those topics that people only talk about on anonymous internet forums or while drinking beer with their buddies and slapping each other on the @ss for having "brilliant" ideas.

I agree with the second half of your post, however, as for your (A), (B), and (C) points, I have to differ. I think many people do not know the real reasons for affirmative action's existence, and URM status goes beyond affirmative action, anyway. There is resentment fueled by ignorance, and there is certainly something to be gained from frank, open, and hopefully informed debate.

The term "under-represented" is important because there is a goal here- to have more diverse doctors who can relate to and serve diverse populations of patients. What has not been established is whether purely selecting someone who's a URM will mean that that person will go serve as a doctor in an underserved URM area. If the URM person in question grew up in an upperclass white neighborhood, what are the chances that he/she will even decide to go to an underserved area instead of staying where her friends are and the money is?

I do not know the answer to that question, but I think it's important in establishing a valid argument for accepting people just for their URM status.

I also think that we're losing the distinction between two things here, AA, and increased representation of minorities in medicine. They serve two different purposes and should be treated as separate subjects.

If the only goal is increasing the people serving in needed areas, I would propose an alternate system in which acceptance is predicated on an agreement to serve in these areas for X years after med school.

 

[riceman04]

i think the more valid question would be "do you resent the fact that adcoms tend to give special consideration to URMs". I would hope nobody intelligent enough to be here wouldnt resent someone for their ethnicity but rather would have beef with schools "recruiting" URMs, which we have no control over...

You are right!!!

 

[Blake]

I dont think I have been this disappointed in a long time.

You're new to SDN. Give it some time. This isn't even part of the top 10 worst threads

Every applicant has some kind of volunteering or activity on their resume, to show they they are commited to helping those that need it.

Only a minority of applicants are actually commited to volunteering. The others just want to pad their resumes, and this works pretty well.

 

[Ifellinapothole]

I have no problem with African Americans being given a little boost as they were slaves for 250 years: being degraded, their family structure being ripped apart and all that....

However, why should Hispanics be given preference. They were not slaves. They came to this country as immigrants like the Chinese, Italians, Jews. These minorities get no special preference. I have never understood the AA with regards to Hispanics.

 

[Ashanti Rock]

As Bernito, I too am very dissapointed by this thread and the fact that after 4 pages it still remains open. There are several reasons why medical schools take urm status, disadvantaged, etc into consideration when selecting applicants. Without going into too much detail (healthcare disparities, ratio of minority uninsured, etc.). Being an African American who will have to share the classroom with some of you next year, I'm very dissapointed that a portion of those voting yes will be my future classmates and collegues. SDN, before you post such a thread why don't you do a little research and educate yourselves, I feel terrible for the URM'S which you will one day treat! Shame!

Mod's - as Miss mary stated- why is this thread still open?

 

[physiclas87]

I have no problem with African Americans being given a little boost as they were slaves for 250 years: being degraded, their family structure being ripped apart and all that....

However, why should Hispanics be given preference. They were not slaves. They came to this country as immigrants like the Chinese, Italians, Jews. These minorities get no special preference. I have never understood the AA with regards to Hispanics.

Hey, none of that. No pointing fingers at Hispanics.

 

[femmedargent]

As Bernito, I too am very dissapointed by this thread and the fact that after 4 pages it still remains open. There are several reasons why medical schools take urm status, disadvantaged, etc into consideration when selecting applicants. Without going into too much detail (healthcare disparities, ratio of minority uninsured, etc.). Being an African American who will have to share the classroom with some of you next year, I'm very dissapointed that a portion of those voting yes will be my future classmates and collegues. SDN, before you post such a thread why don't you do a little research and educate yourselves, I feel terrible for the URM'S which you will one day treat! Shame!

Mod's - as Miss mary stated- why is this thread still open?

You know, I truly do not see how silence on this issue solves anything whatsoever. Closing this thread will not help your peers understand the situation any better, if indeed you even understand it yourself.

There are indeed healthcare disparities between ethnic groups, and I see where the reasoning is that would lead to URM selectivity, but I have not seen proof or evidence that the privelidged status URMs receive actually SOLVES the problems they claim to solve (if anyone has seen studies, please bring them to the attention of this forum).

I give the example of a recent talk I went to at NJMS. The doctor speaking, recipient of the AMA social service award this year, was Indian. He and his group are responsible for a staggering decrease in morbidity and mortality after stroke in Newark (one of the areas where there is a VERY clear 'health disparity' between blacks and whites. essentially, more blacks get strokes, and less blacks survive strokes. Education is critical in getting a stroke victim to the hospital within a few hours, diet plays a big role, and there are genetic factors, as well as problems with insurance and hospital quality). What I heard was that great strides were made in stroke care in this underserved population in a short period of time. The doctors responsible were not necessarily URMs.

What I'm trying to say here is that we have not studied whether or not admitting URMs purely because they are URMs will actually solve these healthcare disparities that we are seeing. Focused programs such as the one at NJMS show clear data and strong results. From what I can tell the remedy being provided by acceptance rates is sketchy and unfounded at best.

I may be wrong on this point, but Ashanti, when you say "without going into too much detail" it is exactly that detail that we premeds need to be aware of, so if you could enlighten us, please do. You are taking a position here, so please back it up with some facts. I personally do not know all the official reasons for URM seeking.

 

[NJDUDE]

Mod's - as Miss mary stated- why is this thread still open?

It's still open because democracy has shown that it's better to discuss matters than let them dormant then explode in terrible means. If the resentment is there, closing this thread will not take it away. However, discussing matters may take some of it away when people learn about others' perspectives.

 

[63768]

I have no problem with African Americans being given a little boost as they were slaves for 250 years: being degraded, their family structure being ripped apart and all that....

However, why should Hispanics be given preference. They were not slaves. They came to this country as immigrants like the Chinese, Italians, Jews. These minorities get no special preference. I have never understood the AA with regards to Hispanics.

how does the fact that blacks were slaves more than a century ago have to do with currently living blacks getting upgraded status? there is no payback involved. as the acronym states, URMs are underrepresented. med schools will actively seek these minorities so that they can become less underrepresented. whether this is right or not is the debate on SDN and in this thread. therefore, hispanics are given preference as well because they must be underrepresented in medicine.

and to missmary, this thread is the aggregate of all URM discussion that has occurred and will occur on SDN. there is no reason to delete/move this thread. it definitely has to do with pre-allo. just because you don't agree does not mean it is topic that must be ignored.

 

[63768]

oh and i thought it'd be interesting to see the breakdown of those ORMs (overrepresented minorities). i'm willing to bet that those asian groups of cambodian, laos, thailand, indonesia, and possibly vietnam are quite underrepresented, probably more so than blacks, hispanics, etc, yet they are grouped into the ORM asian status?

unfair? yes. can we do anything about? not really unless we abolish the URM status and select students based on merit (what an idea!).

 

[femmedargent]

how does the fact that blacks were slaves more than a century ago have to do with currently living blacks getting upgraded status? there is no payback involved. as the acronym states, URMs are underrepresented. med schools will actively seek these minorities so that they can become less underrepresented. whether this is right or not is the debate on SDN and in this thread. therefore, hispanics are given preference as well because they must be underrepresented in medicine.

and to missmary, this thread is the aggregate of all URM discussion that has occurred and will occur on SDN. there is no reason to delete/move this thread. it definitely has to do with pre-allo. just because you don't agree does not mean it is topic that must be ignored.

Again, AA, and increasing representation of minorities in medicine are two different things. Blacks were slaves more than a century ago, but equal rights were not enforced or established until 1965. That's only FORTY years ago. That means that there are people's parents out there who were oppressed and profoundly affected by segregation and other dastardly institutions. It is VERY easy to see why someone whose parents were denied their constitutional right to an education deserves reparation. Especially considering that a parent's education level is the strongest correlate to a child's intelligence/education level, it is clear that the government has not yet made amends for its past transgressions. There is indeed "payback" involved, and there damn well should be.

 

[osli]

You know, what causes problems with the Med/URM thing isn't that URM status may help a candidate, but rather that the number of seats in med school are limited. If this weren't a zero sum sort of situation, i.e. if everyone qualified (including consideration of URM status) were accepted to med school, I doubt many people would have any resentment about the URM thing whatsoever. People tend to be rather neutral about others receiving help so long as they feel they are getting what they have earned.

However, in med school admissions that isn't the case. There are a finite number of seats available, and for every URM that gets a seat because their URM status wound up a determining factor, that represents another qualified applicant who is rejected. It's the competition that drives the resentment. When people compete, especially for something that has such a drastic impact on the course of their lives, it is natural for them to want the playing field as level as possible (or, hell, in their favor if possible). It's human nature.

Whether URM consideration actually levels the playing field, or creates an unlevel bias, is really another discussion (and the one I think has been beaten to death). Human nature under competition explains the existence of resentment; whether the process is ultimately fair or not is really irrelevant.

 

[dr1day]

Sure this topic has been iterated a thousand times, but there's a reason, and it's because there is some real resentment out there.

I have no problem with affirmative action. I do have a problem with its implementation. Some URMs who grew up as wealthy, private-schooled elites get preference over the truly disadvantanged inner city left-behinds, which is a damn shame. I have no problem giving up my "spot" on an acceptance list to someone whose family escaped segregation and Jim Crow laws less than a half century ago, but i do have a problem seeing acceptances being flung left and right at the Nigerian Ambassador's son (or equivalent, which I've personally witnessed). It completely defeats the purpose of these programs.

I must admit that I have not read this entire thread because I don't want to read 4 pages worth of this, but I was compelled to reply to one specific piece of this post. You are not "giving up your spot" to anybody because it's not yours to give up. Nobody has a spot in any med school until they get an acceptance letter. Even then, it's not like after sending your letter, the school will rescind your acceptance because they found a URM to "give" your spot to. If you don't get in, blame it on yourself or even on the complete randomness of the admissions process; not on URMs.

 

[Ashanti Rock]

You know, I truly do not see how silence on this issue solves anything whatsoever. Closing this thread will not help your peers understand the situation any better, if indeed you even understand it yourself.

There are indeed healthcare disparities between ethnic groups, and I see where the reasoning is that would lead to URM selectivity, but I have not seen proof or evidence that the privelidged status URMs receive actually SOLVES the problems they claim to solve (if anyone has seen studies, please bring them to the attention of this forum).

I give the example of a recent talk I went to at NJMS. The doctor speaking, recipient of the AMA social service award this year, was Indian. He and his group are responsible for a staggering decrease in morbidity and mortality after stroke in Newark (one of the areas where there is a VERY clear 'health disparity' between blacks and whites. essentially, more blacks get strokes, and less blacks survive strokes. Education is critical in getting a stroke victim to the hospital within a few hours, diet plays a big role, and there are genetic factors, as well as problems with insurance and hospital quality). What I heard was that great strides were made in stroke care in this underserved population in a short period of time. The doctors responsible were not necessarily URMs.

What I'm trying to say here is that we have not studied whether or not admitting URMs purely because they are URMs will actually solve these healthcare disparities that we are seeing. Focused programs such as the one at NJMS show clear data and strong results. From what I can tell the remedy being provided by acceptance rates is sketchy and unfounded at best.

I may be wrong on this point, but Ashanti, when you say "without going into too much detail" it is exactly that detail that we premeds need to be aware of, so if you could enlighten us, please do. You are taking a position here, so please back it up with some facts. I personally do not know all the official reasons for URM seeking.

First of all, as even Lizzy has stated, no applicant will get admitted to a medical school based solely on URM status. The assumption that all pre-meds make is that URM's that are admitted to med school get there only because of that status, when in fact we also need to make the cut as far as numbers go. My black status will not stir Harvard to miraculously add 7 points to my MCAT or make my GPA seem flawless. Our nation is becoming ever increasingly diverse, in the Midwest for example, there are huge populations of immigrants (legal), Somalians, Hmong, and several other African populations. These patients will often not go and visit a majority physician because there is a sense of mistrust. This leads to prolonged illness which results in more expenses, to the gov't if uninsured, that could have been avoided if there were minority physicians that patient could see. In a study conducted by the NIH, I will find the link and post it, they found that white physicians often misinterpreted how black patients described their symptoms leading to several misdiagnoses, and sometimes resulting in death. This study concluded that some of these errors could be alleviated with the presence of black physicians treating black patients. I personally experienced this, after seeing several white physicians for several years, it was only after I came into contact with a minority physician was I able to receive a proper diagnosis of an ongoing disease and receive the proper treatment. These are just a few arguments for why URM with the numbers might be highly sought after by medical schools. I personally have lived this experience and understand why there is such a need for URM physicians. It is unfortunate that as an African American interested in health care, I did not meet a physician who looked like me until I was in college. It is these types of issues that URM’s in med schools are trying to solve. If my peers are truly concerned about these issues and want to get educated, there are ways to do so. But posting up inflammatory threads that reek of nothing but ignorance will not do so.

 

[femmedargent]

I must admit that I have not read this entire thread because I don't want to read 4 pages worth of this, but I was compelled to reply to one specific piece of this post. You are not "giving up your spot" to anybody because it's not yours to give up. Nobody has a spot in any med school until they get an acceptance letter. Even then, it's not like after sending your letter, the school will rescind your acceptance because they found a URM to "give" your spot to. If you don't get in, blame it on yourself or even on the complete randomness of the admissions process; not on URMs.

I would refer you to the post directly above yours. There are finite spots in a class. It is not inconceivable that a fully qualified applicant would be rejected or waitlisted to make room for a slightly less qualified URM. Perhaps the word parsing of "giving up one's spot" is not the best, but the principle is the same.

 

[Elastase]

do i resent URMs? not particularly, but i sure resent URM threads!

the only productive thing that comes out of URM threads is you have a clearer picture of who the real a-holes are.

Wow, that is incredibly true!

 

[MissMary]

i find it interesting that in the last URM thread (entitiled URM benefits?) when benito and others started informing ppl about the need for URM recruitment, ppl lost interest and stopped replying.

please dont front like the ppl posting on this thread really want to hear about the disadvantages minorities (and yes, hispanics) experience on a daily basis. because we all know that aint the case. what the OP and the other supporters of this thread want is to express their resentment for and jealousy of minorities with other like-minded individuals.

its silly to assume that poor minorities are the only ones affected by lingering racist attitudes. these types of attitudes no doubt affect URMs' fair access to education, healthcare, resources, and the list goes on.

and for the last time: the representation of URMs in medical school is far below their representation in the general population. now what sense does it make to recruit based only on economic status, when the goal is to diversify racially and culturally. does it really make sense to you? it is not your concern whether these individuals return to poor neighborhoods. dont worry about it, worry about yourself. AA/URM recruitment may not be the perfect solution, but it helps to get more minorities in medical school and that's all that matters.

you all can be as resentful as you want, but that attitude will not secure you a place in med school.

 

[femmedargent]

First of all, as even Lizzy has stated, no applicant will get admitted to a medical school based solely on URM status. The assumption that all pre-meds make is that URM's that are admitted to med school get there only because of that status, when in fact we also need to make the cut as far as numbers go. My black status will not stir Harvard to miraculously add 7 points to my MCAT or make my GPA seem flawless. Our nation is becoming ever increasingly diverse, in the Midwest for example, there are huge populations of immigrants (legal), Somalians, Hmong, and several other African populations. These patients will often not go and visit a majority physician because there is a sense of mistrust. This leads to prolonged illness which results in more expenses, to the gov't if uninsured, that could have been avoided if there were minority physicians that patient could see. In a study conducted by the NIH, I will find the link and post it, they found that white physicians often misinterpreted how black patients described their symptoms leading to several misdiagnoses, and sometimes resulting in death. This study concluded that some of these errors could be alleviated with the presence of black physicians treating black patients. I personally experienced this, after seeing several white physicians for several years, it was only after I came into contact with a minority physician was I able to receive a proper diagnosis of an ongoing disease and receive the proper treatment. These are just a few arguments for why URM with the numbers might be highly sought after by medical schools. I personally have lived this experience and understand why there is such a need for URM physicians. It is unfortunate that as an African American interested in health care, I did not meet a physician who looked like me until I was in college. It is these types of issues that URM's in med schools are trying to solve. If my peers are truly concerned about these issues and want to get educated, there are ways to do so. But posting up inflammatory threads that reek of nothing but ignorance will not do so.

I appreciate your response, and this is what the forum is all about. I do not fully understand the URM's perspective, so it is interesting to hear about your personal experiences with medicine, even if anecdotally.

I in no way meant to say that URMs are necessarily less qualified- we all work hard for our GPAs and MCATs and everything else and I do not want to slight you that acheivement. But again we are talking about a finite resource, so whether someone is "qualified enough" is really a moot point. Thousands of qualified people get rejected every year, and this is not because they are not good enough to be doctors, but because there is a severe and artificial supply-side constriction of doctors (in my opinion, this is to artificially inflate the salaries of doctors- when demand stays constant, reduce supply, price goes up). In a free market, anyone who had the chops to be a doctor could be a doctor if they wanted to do so. That is not the case here, which is why arguments that "we have good enough GPAs and MCATs too" falls flat in this scenario.

I agree that if URM patients are more likely to go to URM doctors, this is a good reason to increase their numbers within doctors' ranks. With regards to the NIH study you mention, it is certainly interesting and makes logical sense that black doctors might better treat black patients, but is this a conclusion of the paper or merely a hypothesis in need of testing? From what you have said, white doctors misdiagnosing black patients does not necessarily mean that black doctors would have better luck.

 

[dr1day]

I would refer you to the post directly above yours. There are finite spots in a class. It is not inconceivable that a fully qualified applicant would be rejected or waitlisted to make room for a slightly less qualified URM. Perhaps the word parsing of "giving up one's spot" is not the best, but the principle is the same.

Slightly less qualified based on what? Numbers? For the sake of argument let's say this does happen. A URM with SLIGHTLY (I emphasize that word because I'm not talking about someone with a 2.5. I'm talking about someone with a 3.3 let's say). Anyway, this person gets in over a ORM with a 3.8. Based on numbers alone this person is less qualified, but when you look at other factors, they may be just as qualified. Perhaps this person has done mission trips or volunteered in a clinic for indigent patients (significant volunteer work, not just filing) or maybe they speak a foreign language and there's a large population of people who speak that language in the city. These things may suggest to a committee that the applicant is committed to serving the underserved. If that's part of the school's mission, of course they'd go with this specific URM vs. someone else.

 

[NJDUDE]

i find it interesting that in the last URM thread (entitiled URM benefits?) when benito and others started informing ppl about the need for URM recruitment, ppl lost interest and stopped replying.

please dont front like the ppl posting on this thread really want to hear about the disadvantages minorities (and yes, hispanics) experience on a daily basis. because we all know that aint the case. what the OP and the other supporters of this thread want is to express their hatred for and jealousy of minorities with other like-minded individuals.

its silly to assume that poor minorities are the only ones affected by lingering racist attitudes. these types of attitudes no doubt affect URMs' fair access to education, healthcare, resources, and the list goes on.

and for the last time: the representation of URMs in medical school is far below their representation in the general population. now what sense does it make to recruit based only on economic status, when the goal is to diversify racially and culturally. does it really make sense to you? it is not your concern whether these individuals return to poor neighborhoods. dont worry about it, worry about yourself. AA/URM recruitment may not be the perfect solution, but it helps to get more minorities in medical school and that's all that matters.

you all can be as resentful as you want, but that attitude will not secure you a place in med school.

I have a question though. If a URM student was living within a rich, educated household (not all minorities live in the slums of downtown X), isn't that person really taking advantage of a system that's targetted at those who belong to that ethnic background and have a decreased access to the educational system? I do understand that URM recruitment is not really portrayed as a "payback" system, so your socioeconomic status does not really play a role. But the essential reason that minorities are underrepresented is because most of them live in the projects and what have you, and therefore have no access to an educational experience that would allow them to achieve an academic record similar to those who live in a better environment. So my question is, don't you feel that you're really using those people who can't and probably won't get into medical school because of their upbringing, the critical period of their life during which synaptic pruning is taking place? I think what our society really needs is an effort to intermingle more and more. The separation that is currently taking place is really merely adding resentment to various things. I hear things like the "black experience" and it really saddens me. After all, what is currently called the "black experience" in America is not the worst thing in the world; there are people in Africa, Asia, Europe, and South America who have a worse experience in life in general, where they can barely get enough to eat, sometimes dying of hunger. In any case, I think the consensus of those who "resent" the URM recruitment system is to have more objective measures for recruitment and not blindly going by someone's racial or ethnic background...

 

[femmedargent]

i find it interesting that in the last URM thread (entitiled URM benefits?) when benito and others started informing ppl about the need for URM recruitment, ppl lost interest and stopped replying.

please dont front like the ppl posting on this thread really want to hear about the disadvantages minorities (and yes, hispanics) experience on a daily basis. because we all know that aint the case. what the OP and the other supporters of this thread want is to express their resentment for and jealousy of minorities with other like-minded individuals.

its silly to assume that poor minorities are the only ones affected by lingering racist attitudes. these types of attitudes no doubt affect URMs' fair access to education, healthcare, resources, and the list goes on.

and for the last time: the representation of URMs in medical school is far below their representation in the general population. now what sense does it make to recruit based only on economic status, when the goal is to diversify racially and culturally. does it really make sense to you? it is not your concern whether these individuals return to poor neighborhoods. dont worry about it, worry about yourself. AA/URM recruitment may not be the perfect solution, but it helps to get more minorities in medical school and that's all that matters.

you all can be as resentful as you want, but that attitude will not secure you a place in med school.

Miss Mary, you are being judgemental (perhaps legitimately, perhaps not).
I am not saying to recruit purely based on socioeconomics, but I would feel better if a disadvantaged black person were selected over one with all the trimmings of white collar life.

You say "it helps to get more minorities in medical school and that's all that matters". I disagree, that's NOT all that matters. We have not established in this thread that more minorities = better equality in medical treatment for minorities.

You say "please dont front like the ppl posting on this thread really want to hear about the disadvantages minorities (and yes, hispanics) experience on a daily basis" - i can only speak for myself, but I am looking for informed discussion of the institution and the proposed benefits of these programs/quotas.

You say "its silly to assume that poor minorities are the only ones affected by lingering racist attitudes." You are correct, however, I'm of middle eastern descent, I get racist attitudes, and I don't get URM status. My father moved from country to country in Europe because he could not find work, or buy an apartment, or deal with the racism. Many others have similar experiences. Your point is illegitimate in my opinion when considering the granting of URM status to certain minorities because of "lingering racist attitudes". Who determines who suffers from these attitudes?

 

[Ashanti Rock]

I hear things like the "black experience" and it really saddens me. After all, what is currently called the "black experience" in America is not the worst thing in the world; there are people in Africa, Asia, Europe, and South America who have a worse experience in life in general, where they can barely get enough to eat, sometimes dying of hunger. .

I've lived for several years in Africa, and the black experience that I saw after Katrina in New Orleans was not much different!

 

[kaffy]

i find it interesting that in the last URM thread (entitiled URM benefits?) when benito and others started informing ppl about the need for URM recruitment, ppl lost interest and stopped replying.

please dont front like the ppl posting on this thread really want to hear about the disadvantages minorities (and yes, hispanics) experience on a daily basis. because we all know that aint the case. what the OP and the other supporters of this thread want is to express their resentment for and jealousy of minorities with other like-minded individuals.

its silly to assume that poor minorities are the only ones affected by lingering racist attitudes. these types of attitudes no doubt affect URMs' fair access to education, healthcare, resources, and the list goes on.

and for the last time: the representation of URMs in medical school is far below their representation in the general population. now what sense does it make to recruit based only on economic status, when the goal is to diversify racially and culturally. does it really make sense to you? it is not your concern whether these individuals return to poor neighborhoods. dont worry about it, worry about yourself. AA/URM recruitment may not be the perfect solution, but it helps to get more minorities in medical school and that's all that matters.

you all can be as resentful as you want, but that attitude will not secure you a place in med school.

Miss Mary,

I agree with you and I cannot believe how many people said they were resentful. It makes me sick.

 

[NJDUDE]

I've lived for several years in Africa, and the black experience that I saw after Katrina in New Orleans was not much different!

Dude Katrina in New Orleans was a natural disaster that happened once in how long?! Africa is in a constant state of "Katrina," even according to what you just said above. You can't even compare!!!

 

[Ashanti Rock]

Dude Katrina in New Orleans was a natural disaster that happened once in how long?! Africa is in a constant state of "Katrina," even according to what you just said above. You can't even compare!!!

Katrina was a natural disaster that brought to light how several african americans are living in a country that is supposed to be one of the richest in the world. This is happening in other parts of the states, and not just New Orleans, just becuase natural disasters aren't uncovering those places does not mean that it's not happening.

 

[Phil Anthropist]

Inappropriate. Closing.

(1) Affirmative Action threads are to be posted in the Everyone forum; this thread is not appropriate for Pre-Allo.

(2) I would have moved the thread to the Everyone forum, but the title alone was flamebait. Asking SDNers if they resent groups of people or races is certainly not appropriate for Pre-Allo. Such a thread would be ripe for racist remarks, something not tolerated on SDN. The title of the thread is essentially asking, "Do you resent Blacks, Mexican-Americans, Native Americans, and mainland Puerto Ricans?"

If the OP followed this suggestion

i think the more valid question would be "do you resent the fact that adcoms tend to give special consideration to URMs". I would hope nobody intelligent enough to be here wouldnt resent someone for their ethnicity but rather would have beef with schools "recruiting" URMs, which we have no control over...

and started a thread it would be less problematic. The thread would eventually get moved to the Everyone forum, but I wouldn't have closed the thread.

-Phil