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LoveBeingHuman:)
Follow-up: do you think this represents a flaw in the medical school admissions process?
Do you think majority of physicians today are money-greedy?
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LoveBeingHuman:)
You answered no. But your follow up comment doesn't really match that.
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I do believe that a majority of applicants are attracted to medicine because of the combination of stability, relatively high income, and prestige of the profession. This is something that is taboo to speak of on the interview trail, so few if any will ever admit this as a reason. But it is there.
With that said, I would assume most are also interested in this type of work. I wouldn't say many qualify as "money-greedy" which is a bit extreme and implies their motives are almost solely about money.
The admissions system definitely has flaws, but I think the way it is now is fine in regards to weeding out those who are "money-greedy", since there are so many hoops to jump through only to be hit in the face with 7+ years of grueling training in a very challenging profession. There are better paths to pursue if one's only goal is to make a lot of money.
With that said, I would assume most are also interested in this type of work. I wouldn't say many qualify as "money-greedy" which is a bit extreme and implies their motives are almost solely about money.
The admissions system definitely has flaws, but I think the way it is now is fine in regards to weeding out those who are "money-greedy", since there are so many hoops to jump through only to be hit in the face with 7+ years of grueling training in a very challenging profession. There are better paths to pursue if one's only goal is to make a lot of money.
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I'd be lying if I said money didn't play a part in my decision to want to become a physician, but so what? I like everything about medicine besides a good portion of the patient population. It's interesting and stimulating. Also where I live I can be wealthy. Seems like a good fit for me.
I wouldn't say there is a flaw in the admissions system. I haven't met too many people in Med school who I think pursued it for the wrong reasons.
I wouldn't say there is a flaw in the admissions system. I haven't met too many people in Med school who I think pursued it for the wrong reasons.
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Agree. Financial stability is important to me, but it'd be easier, give me more years to work/earn, and put me in significantly less debt to get a business degree if that were my top priority. Someone who puts money before being a good doctor, obviously, needs to go. But I feel like the stress will weed a lot of those people and leave the people who think logically and rationally, want stability, and have thought about their future, things that are associated with wanting a good salary and being a good doctor.
Not saying it's 100%, but even when it does happen it's not necessarily a drawback.
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No. And even if they are, then what?
Will the powers-that-be institute a tribunal of morality to ensure that only the pure of heart get a glorious golden ticket to medical school?
Oh, wait.
Follow-up answer: No.
Will the powers-that-be institute a tribunal of morality to ensure that only the pure of heart get a glorious golden ticket to medical school?
Oh, wait.
Follow-up answer: No.
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Define "money-greedy."
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Well how do you define greedy?
Im currently puttting myself through increasingly unpleasant levels of hell in order to receive the training necessary to enter a field I love. When alls said and done my education will have cost close to half a million dollars, between private college and med school. In addition being an attending is significantly more demanding than a large proportion of jobs that adults hold.
So is it greedy to want to make enough money to buy a nice house, save well for retirement, and finance my own children's education the same way my parents did for me?
I care about helping people, but most people aren't saints. If the money isn't there, well go to another profession where our hard work and education would be rewarded.
Im currently puttting myself through increasingly unpleasant levels of hell in order to receive the training necessary to enter a field I love. When alls said and done my education will have cost close to half a million dollars, between private college and med school. In addition being an attending is significantly more demanding than a large proportion of jobs that adults hold.
So is it greedy to want to make enough money to buy a nice house, save well for retirement, and finance my own children's education the same way my parents did for me?
I care about helping people, but most people aren't saints. If the money isn't there, well go to another profession where our hard work and education would be rewarded.
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No and no. Everyone should care about money. The one's who don't are stupid and end up screwing their colleagues by taking less $$ or ****ty job offers. You're only worth what someone is willing to pay you (+ willing to work for), so all these doctors who have no business exp/do not care end up screwing all their other colleagues. This is one of the reasons MBA and business oriented healthcare admin took over health care
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deleted738762
This doesn't make sense. You say no to money-greedy then say the money-greedy are the most successful because of their believable facade.
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I think the poster of this was replying to the follow-up question posed by OP, not the original question in the subject line.
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Nowadays, many physicians entering the workforce *have accumulated significant loans, that they'll have to pay off (as illustrated by knife and gun club)
Medical education sadly isn't free and is one of the most costly professions to train for (this a different can of worms to go into by the way).
You could be 'money hungry' at some point in your career, and that's got nothing to do with 'greed', so much as need
Very few are going to come out of this being able to refuse a salary to do voluntary humanitarian work full time for instance.
Few are going to be that self-sacrificing, I don't even know how you would be able to sustain that sort of lifestyle while there's debts involved too.
Another way to look at this, is asking how much compensation is justified relevant to work done, the community being served etc. etc.
And there'd be varying types of views on this. I don't think you'd find a clear cut answer. But that's a question for administration - as frogger states.
this is also related to the topic of 'what then are the appropriate reasons for entering medicine', and how do admissions select for this. There is no one reason, or one correct one, it's a variety as someone mentioned in an earlier comment. It's just that money just can't be the sole object. Given how long it takes to be a fully qualified physician with the hours put in, it's generally going to be more than money that keeps you going. (Hence why the cliche of saying don't do this purely for money, because it will drive you bananas eventually). There's much easier ways to make a living with less education.
Whether there's flaws in admission processes..
it depends on the admissions committees and their motivations.
for profit versus not-for-profit. if they see you as an investment (and not a commodity), they'll likely look for more protective factors that will aid in retaining you.
Finally, maybe not everyone starts with money being a major consideration, but loans don't pay for themselves and your outlook may change by the time you start practicing. *Your life will also change outside of medicine in the time it takes to become a doctor.
Edited: for crappy grammar
Medical education sadly isn't free and is one of the most costly professions to train for (this a different can of worms to go into by the way).
You could be 'money hungry' at some point in your career, and that's got nothing to do with 'greed', so much as need
Very few are going to come out of this being able to refuse a salary to do voluntary humanitarian work full time for instance.
Few are going to be that self-sacrificing, I don't even know how you would be able to sustain that sort of lifestyle while there's debts involved too.
Another way to look at this, is asking how much compensation is justified relevant to work done, the community being served etc. etc.
And there'd be varying types of views on this. I don't think you'd find a clear cut answer. But that's a question for administration - as frogger states.
this is also related to the topic of 'what then are the appropriate reasons for entering medicine', and how do admissions select for this. There is no one reason, or one correct one, it's a variety as someone mentioned in an earlier comment. It's just that money just can't be the sole object. Given how long it takes to be a fully qualified physician with the hours put in, it's generally going to be more than money that keeps you going. (Hence why the cliche of saying don't do this purely for money, because it will drive you bananas eventually). There's much easier ways to make a living with less education.
Whether there's flaws in admission processes..
it depends on the admissions committees and their motivations.
for profit versus not-for-profit. if they see you as an investment (and not a commodity), they'll likely look for more protective factors that will aid in retaining you.
Finally, maybe not everyone starts with money being a major consideration, but loans don't pay for themselves and your outlook may change by the time you start practicing. *Your life will also change outside of medicine in the time it takes to become a doctor.
Edited: for crappy grammar
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deleted738762
Essentially what you're saying is you're doing it for the money. You said it's a field that you love, but if the money isn't there then you would find another profession. Which is understandable considering we need money. However, people that practiced medicine back in the day, helping the sick with their limited abilities, practiced medicine with little money coming their way and worked a lot as well. Their reward? Helping their fellow man. Helping others brings the greatest pleasure and even helps you as a person.
I'm just saying to me it seems like you care more about the money than the medicine, because if there was no money then you wouldn't practice medicine. No it's not greedy to buy a house and support a family, but some people practice medicine or think about medicine for the money and not the medicine. Also, I think the OP phrased the question wrong, because it isn't greedy, rather money is the motive. Which, again, is fine because a job is a job.
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deleted738762
Only way it makes sense.
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Not really, I'd say they're more Money-conscious... For most physicians, I think financial stability was a major contributing factor to choose medicine but it probably wasn't not the main one. The strenuous process itself, more often than not, weeds out those that made that choice just to get rich.
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Yeah, I think being "greedy" and doing medicine for the "right" reasons is a false dichotomy. Being "money conscious" if definitely a thing. You can care about money without it being more important than practicing good medicine. And yes, med school admissions should weed out people who won't be good doctors, but I think making the decision totally about money is wrong. People who care a lot about seeming morally superior could also make bad doctors, y'know?
But then, I'm firmly in the camp of people who don't care if you do charity to honestly help people or brag, so long as it's effective charity. Making it about the doctor/person doing charity shifts the focus away from the patient/population in need, which I don't think is useful, but I get that not everyone agrees with that.
But then, I'm firmly in the camp of people who don't care if you do charity to honestly help people or brag, so long as it's effective charity. Making it about the doctor/person doing charity shifts the focus away from the patient/population in need, which I don't think is useful, but I get that not everyone agrees with that.
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I think the debt load taken by undergraduates and physicians today is a far more influential factor in terms of career decisions made down the line. The contemporary reality of 1) continuously increasing property and rent prices, 2) ballooning educational debt, 3) lower real wages across the board, 4) instability of general labor market in other professions, and 5) expectation that physician income will decrease in the near future have all lead to more financially-conscious and risk-averse population of pre-meds / medical students. At least thats my theory.
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Wanting to have a good living is the base-line motivation for professionals anywhere.
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Nothing wrong with wanting financial stability. Considering the amount of loans you have to take, and the years of 60-70 hour work weeks you have to endure, I would hope doctors would want some sort of payoff at the end
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Money greedy, no. I think there are some who are, but the majority are money wise. I know for myself I want to be wise and invest heavily in passive sources of income. I grew up poor and it has been that way for 4 generation on both sides. I want to change this, and make it last. Thus this is a way that I can fulfill a dream and change a generation history. (I am also the first generation student for 3 generations). This has ZERO to do with the idea that poverty is bad, I just don't want my kids, or my kids kids to have to think about that, they can focus on fulfilling their dream... just making a better future for my kids... not greedy.
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I want money, I wanna own a nice German car, I want alot of things but most importantly I want to be a doctor. Money is definitely one of the reasons anyone would go through this.
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Thats not a bad thing. People have their reasons, if it includes money, that's FINE. Just keep in perspective. IDK why this is such a big issue to some. Money is a point of consideration for me, but not in the top 5 for me. More like the top 10.
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Do you think majority of physicians today are money-greedy?
For starters, I don't know what "money-greedy" means. But, based on the prior replies, I'll just replace it with "greedy" and respond accordingly. Yes, the majority of physicians in the US are greedy. And I consider anyone who disagrees to be delusional, naive or lacking in exposure. The vast majority of human beings are greedy. Correspondingly, the vast majority of those in the US are greedy and given that physicians are a sub-set of this, it follows that the majority will be greedy. The further that I go in medicine and the more people, physicians and non-physicians, that I come across, the more I come to the conclusion that there is very little different between physicians and non-physicians. They mirror the general population extremely well. Name an attribute that can be applied to the population that they are selected from and dollars to donuts it can be applied to physicians as a group.
Follow-up: do you think this represents a flaw in the medical school admissions process?
Whether or not this is a flaw depends on what you think the goal of medical school admissions is. I don't think that anyone will question that altruism and lack of "greed" is a positive quality in a physician. But, I also don't think that you will find enough otherwise qualified students to fill your medical school classes. For starters the ability to find them is hard, but more than that, I just don't think there are that many out there.
I deleted my other thoughts on the topic knowing they will be wildly unpopular and don't have the energy to go further than what is above.
For starters, I don't know what "money-greedy" means. But, based on the prior replies, I'll just replace it with "greedy" and respond accordingly. Yes, the majority of physicians in the US are greedy. And I consider anyone who disagrees to be delusional, naive or lacking in exposure. The vast majority of human beings are greedy. Correspondingly, the vast majority of those in the US are greedy and given that physicians are a sub-set of this, it follows that the majority will be greedy. The further that I go in medicine and the more people, physicians and non-physicians, that I come across, the more I come to the conclusion that there is very little different between physicians and non-physicians. They mirror the general population extremely well. Name an attribute that can be applied to the population that they are selected from and dollars to donuts it can be applied to physicians as a group.
Follow-up: do you think this represents a flaw in the medical school admissions process?
Whether or not this is a flaw depends on what you think the goal of medical school admissions is. I don't think that anyone will question that altruism and lack of "greed" is a positive quality in a physician. But, I also don't think that you will find enough otherwise qualified students to fill your medical school classes. For starters the ability to find them is hard, but more than that, I just don't think there are that many out there.
I deleted my other thoughts on the topic knowing they will be wildly unpopular and don't have the energy to go further than what is above.
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There are many other careers that you can pursue which offer financial security and a comfortable lifestyle (and fewer years of training and jumping through hoops). I would wager that most people who go into it with money being the primary objective would either burn out or be miserable when they get older.
The more interesting question would be.... if there was a hypothetical salary cap of 100k, how many people would still go through with it.
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The more interesting question would be.... if there was a hypothetical salary cap of 100k, how many people would still go through with it.
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Not gonna lie, it's like top 3 for me. I have no issue with this
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LoveBeingHuman:)
How many doctors would agree to treat poor patients on a somewhat regular basis without charging them (many doctors can do this without a hit to their salary)? Not many.
How many medical school applicants would be able to say they won't treat patients who are poor because they can't get money, and still get in? Probably zero.
The point is that I don't really see doctors today being what medical schools today want to produce.
How many medical school applicants would be able to say they won't treat patients who are poor because they can't get money, and still get in? Probably zero.
The point is that I don't really see doctors today being what medical schools today want to produce.
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Yeah, man.
Reject the doctors' professional autonomy and usher in the equitopia.
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LoveBeingHuman:)
Pointing out something exists doesn't mean I agree or disagree with it.
Read my post again and try to understand the point I'm trying to make.
If you can't, try again
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Hey man, I mean this in all honesty and kindness, I would, if you feel this way, look into becoming a Canadian Doctor. They are able to help anyone and they are not about the money. Here in America it is about capitalism. When money and lives come on the line it can be hard for some. Especially as it can sound like a type of kidnapping (charging money to live...). I honestly don't want to come off as rude but just a thought as you sound like you honestly care about everyone, even if they can't pay...
(Edit: Pre tax, on average, they make 225,000 they will take about 50% so that would leave you with 112,500, that is a good living there, enough that you can pay off your debt and still live your life.)
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rofl, more like 4-8 dollars in some cases
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I'd say 95% of the students I get are the students I want. I would have no problem with them touching my family.
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A) what does "money-greedy" even mean?
and
B) I doubt most people go into medicine for the money. There are far easier and quicker ways to make more money than by becoming a physician.
and
B) I doubt most people go into medicine for the money. There are far easier and quicker ways to make more money than by becoming a physician.
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Consider the source
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LoveBeingHuman:)
That's why it's a quality thread
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Yeah, well, its a good topic to consider. I think it made many to think about this aspect of medicine. IMO at least.
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Some hookers in Las Vegas make more money than a family physician, but the majority of ppl pursuing medicine would never think about it as an option. As for me, money is definitely a factor, but is far from the most important ones.
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There are obviously doctors who only went into it because of the prestige and the money. Most of those don't survive. Some do. I don't think that means we should assume the majority are greedy. This kind of sentiment erodes confidence in physicians and makes people into anti-vaxxers.
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I think you're drawing a false dicotamy, saying that you can either be in the field because you love medicine or you want the money. It's both. I love medicine, but I also love the idea of paying for my kids college.
I love wood working too. But the money in carpentry is pretty aweful (unless you're an ortho, lol). Loving a job isn't as simple as just loving it. Supporting yourself is important too
PS [yea, back in the ancient times (pre-1930 let's say) doctors didn't make much of anything. But most also weren't well trained, the cost of the education was next to nothing, and they were not attracting particularly brilliant people. Hell we were still using bloodletting and leeches in the late 19th century.
Medical training today requires extremely smart and driven people compared to the old days. You aren't going to attract people like that with altruism. ]
You do understand that's not how medicine works literally at all right? It costs money to see patients. Nurses, staff, equipment (even a damn ophthalmoscope costs $500), rent, malpractice insurance, and taxes are all overhead that has to be paid for.
Of course most doctors would see a few patients for free. Here where I am in Miami, we have several clinics where doctors go to volunteer. The limiting factor is not the stingy docs (in fact there's a waiting list for docs), it's a shortage of resources.
Below is an FYI, skip if you're not interested
Also most doctors can't just see a patient, listen to their heart, and tell them to take x drug. Many patients require complex work ups. CT/MRI scans, blood tests, and consultation from specialists. At my hospital a bad ankle fracture can cost over 100k to fix. This is how it goes:
ER visit
X ray
Cast tech puts on a cast
consult with the surgeon
MRI/CT
Attending radiologist reads the MRI/CT
blood tests
scheduler books surgery
2 hours of surgery, with an attending, resident, 2 nurses, and an anesthesia attending...plus super expensive titanium screws
Post op care and nursing in hospital for a day
Cast again + crutches (or a scooter )
Physical therapy for several months
Plus Follow up appointments with the surgeon
As you can see many health issues require many components and can't just be done for free by altruistic doctor. Plus most physicians are specialists, and there isn't really a whole lot of use for an anesthesiologist who's willing to work for free part time.
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That's a cynical perspective. If you convince yourself of that you won't be able to see what really makes other people successful. And have a bad attitude about life to boot. If I heard my mom's doctor say those words I'd find her a new one immediately.
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You need to let go dude. Whatever made you bitter about medical schools and medical students is not healthy for you.
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True, but physicians back in the day did not have to deal with all the beaurocratic encroachment, regulation, and lack of respect from patients and society as a whole in their efforts to help their fellow man. If I could simply get an education and help people in need without being told how to do my job from suits who never have started an IV, have it explained to me that mercury is the reason why their kid won't get a measles vaccine, and then you wake up to this on twitter,
then I would happily mother Theresa my way into saving my fellow man. Trust me when I say this, you literally cannot pay people enough to deal with all this crap, and yet somehow doctors still get up every morning and do it. I'm not ashamed to say that I will happily rub my money all over my body each morning as I wake up to make me feel better about the onslaught of ignorance I will deal with each day. And the kicker is that it will be well earned.
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Ironically, the most believable facade is often real life. When I look at my class, there are 10 "wow you really deserve to be here" types for every bull$hit artist
