Do you think you should still be on clinical rotations?

[thumbz]

Simple question. This is in regard to canceling of clinical rotations, NOT in regards to moving to distance learning.

As an attending at first I was of the "whatever, less work for me" mindset.

However, as I've thought about it more, I'm wondering if we are training you to have the appropriate response. "When **** hits the fan, lets do distance learning and graduate you without a full complement of clinical requirements." Don't get me wrong, I understand there is a shortage of PPE and the like, and the single N95 mask I have I treat like some sort of prized possession that the world wants to steal. But this pandemic will likely stretch well into the summer, and as students you can still provide valuable help, even if it's helping me coordinate with nurses or call families who are barred from entering the hospital.

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[Dantrolene FC]

As a graduating medical student, I think, and so do my attendings, that it was dumb to take me off rotations.

I can understand having students not see any patients who are on isolation precautions due to the shortage of PPE, but I think it was the wrong decision to pull every student off rotations.

I was on a medicine sub-specialty consult rotation seeing 95% outpatient visits. It has been a detriment to my medical education to be at home. My current curriculum consists of three 1 hour skype talks with my attending/fellows.

I haven’t thought about the point you bring up about changing our mindsets to run away from the fire instead of running towards it, but it’s a very interesting question.

 

[docr3]

What would be the point of putting MS2s who are just becoming MS3s onto rotations now? There is going to be barley anyone available to teach us, I think thats a major concern. At that point we are just in the way, using up PPE. Those with clinical experience that can be helpful I can see purpose for them being on rotations, so long as proper PPE is available

 

[Dantrolene FC]

What would be the point of putting MS2s who are just becoming MS3s onto rotations now? There is going to be barley anyone available to teach us, I think thats a major concern. At that point we are just in the way, using up PPE. Those with clinical experience that can be helpful I can see purpose for them being on rotations, so long as proper PPE is available

As a new MS3, you need to learn clinical thinking. You need practice your history and physical skills, your note writing, and your differentials, etc.

IM is a super important rotation, probably the most important in my opinion. As an MS1 and MS2, you are used to having the information right in front of your face and you just choose a multiple choice answer.

As an MS-3, you have to elicit the history yourself. You won’t have important history or lab data give to you,instead, you have to fin that information yourself.

There is an obvious solution to your PPE argument that I answered in my previous post. The hospital simply creates a policy that medical students aren’t allowed to see patients on isolation precautions requiring PPE use. There problem solved. Now you will be seeing CHF, COPD, sepsis, etc. Which is 1000 times more useful than seeing 20 COVID19 cases per day.

 

[docr3]

As a new MS3, you need to learn clinical thinking. You need practice your history and physical skills, your note writing, and your differentials, etc.

IM is a super important rotation, probably the most important in my opinion. As an MS1 and MS2, you are used to having the information right in front of your face and you just choose a multiple choice answer.

As an MS-3, you have to elicit the history yourself. You won’t have important history or lab data give to you,instead, you have to fin that information yourself.

There is an obvious solution to your PPE argument that I answered in my previous post. The hospital simply creates a policy that medical students aren’t allowed to see patients on isolation precautions requiring PPE use. There problem solved. Now you will be seeing CHF, COPD, sepsis, etc. Which is 1000 times more useful than seeing 20 COVID19 cases per day.

Totally get that we need rotations to learn, I was not trying to say do away with rotations. I just see it making more sense to decrease the required electives needed to graduate rather than putting us out there when the hospital system is overwhelmed. Theres an argument to be made for both sides. Every IM floor will eventually have COVID patients, and we will inevitably be exposed

 

[deleted393595]

As an MS-3, you have to elicit the history yourself. You won’t have important history or lab data give to you,instead, you have to fin that information yourself.

And learning how to integrate things and know what details matter and what doesn't. Thinking of horses > zebras

There is an obvious solution to your PPE argument that I answered in my previous post. The hospital simply creates a policy that medical students aren’t allowed to see patients on isolation precautions requiring PPE use. There problem solved. Now you will be seeing CHF, COPD, sepsis, etc. Which is 1000 times more useful than seeing 20 COVID19 cases per day.

How do you know that the non-COVID patients don't have COVID? We're only testing the most symptomatic. We know that 20% of those infected with it are asymptomatic and that community spread is rampant.

You could chart stalk instead - that's what I've been doing for my ICU patients the last few weeks while I'm off rotations

 

[Ho0v-man]

If we have the PPE then yes absolutely. But there still needs to be flexibility on behalf of the schools on this. For instance, IM and ER will be crazy insane rotations to have right now. Surgery? Not a ton of volume with all the elective stuff canceled. Schools have to accept that our learning will be limited on certain rotations. Furthermore, there just needs to be the expectation that a lot of us will get exposed and need several weeks off from rotations if/when that happens.

 

[ciestar]

My EM rotation starts Monday and is entirely online. A lot of zoom stuff and apparently a lot of readings, videos, and presentations. Plus SAEM

 

[order66.exe]

If we were overflowing with PPE with school provided life and disability insurance then I would say yes.

 

[Frogger27]

just dont use PPE or see patients with URIs/suspected COVID. Don't have med students in the ER or OR. Pretty easy solution IMO

 

[Mass Effect]

As a new MS3, you need to learn clinical thinking. You need practice your history and physical skills, your note writing, and your differentials, etc.

IM is a super important rotation, probably the most important in my opinion. As an MS1 and MS2, you are used to having the information right in front of your face and you just choose a multiple choice answer.

As an MS-3, you have to elicit the history yourself. You won’t have important history or lab data give to you,instead, you have to fin that information yourself.

There is an obvious solution to your PPE argument that I answered in my previous post. The hospital simply creates a policy that medical students aren’t allowed to see patients on isolation precautions requiring PPE use. There problem solved. Now you will be seeing CHF, COPD, sepsis, etc. Which is 1000 times more useful than seeing 20 COVID19 cases per day.

This is misguided. For one thing, no brand new MS 3 knows where the bathrooms are let alone how to actually function on medicine wards without someone teaching and there is no one to teach, at least in my city. Second, you think it's just isolation patients??? That's not the case at all. There are a lot of patients coming in for various reasons who turn out to have Covid. There are also a lot of patients who come in and aren't in isolation who are Covid positive. I think MS 3s need to stay home. MS 4s, time to join the fight if you're willing.

 

[Mass Effect]

just dont use PPE or see patients with URIs/suspected COVID. Don't have med students in the ER or OR. Pretty easy solution IMO

This is very misguided. Covid patients don't wear a sign. Covid patients don't just present with URIs. Some present with headaches only. Some present with fever only. Some present with abdominal pain only. Some present with diarrhea or vomiting. Covid patients don't just sit in the ED. To highlight the above, hospitals in my city now have a rule that if you're on campus at all, you need a mask and gloves at the very least.

Nothing about this is easy.

 

[You shall know the Truth]

It is a detriment to learning. There is no substitute for being in clinicand seeing pt. I went to school to help people and what perfect time to help people.

 

[errorscheduling]

I don't think there's a strong argument for continued rotations during this pandemic. I'm an MS4 and I was set to move from hospital to hospital every month this year including for my upcoming EM rotation--I cannot learn in this setting without being actively taught and there simply aren't staff available to do this at my clinical sites. Learning is the primary objective while in medical school, and I will learn more doing online modules than I will in an overwrought ED. I am paying an exorbitant amount of money to go to medical school and helping out by "coordinat[ing] with nurses or call families who are barred from entering the hospital" is not beneficial for my education at all. If you want me to do that sort of thing, pay me, or cover my tuition for the semester. Otherwise, don't ask.
I went to school to gain a medical education and then become gainfully employed. Putting myself in harm's way/doing tasks that do not advance my education is outside of the scope of medical school.

 

[CherryRedDracul]

No.

Community spread is pervasive now; asymptomatic transmission is likely. Expect all clinical centers to bed a hotbed of COVID-19. We don't have enough PPE as it is. Hospitals, such as my own in NYC, are at maximum capacity.

The bolded points are the biggest reasons why I prefer med students to stay home. The marginal clinical benefit you provide does not outweight the risks to yourself and others. If there was ample PPE, it's more of a different story because you can learn from a pandemic (but this can be debated as well given the risk).

But this is the unfortunate time that we have to make concessions. People--patients and health care workers alike--will die because we do not have the resources to take care of everyone. Help us out through non-clinical avenues if you prefer. But let us take care of this.

 

[Kracin]

I went to school to help people

The first time I told a doctor I was going into medicine because I wanted to "help people", I got laughed at

 

[CherryRedDracul]

The first time I told a doctor I was going into medicine because I wanted to "help people", I got laughed at

Sounds like a burnt-out doctor.

 

[libertyyne]

There is likely going to be community spread or risk of that over the next year. Does that mean medical students should not attend rotations for a year?
Will these students be prevented from graduating on time, will you hold back an entire year of medical students ?

 

[NITRAS]

Sounds like a burnt-out doctor.

I think cause most of us think that pre-meds want to make a lot of money in an 8-4 job. Take minimal call, and not have to do anything “lowly” as general friggin medicine.

 

[Money-Moniker]

No sane person should want to be in the hospital right now if they can help it. You may as well assume every surface you touch is crawling with SARS, and every coworker you talk to is exhaling SARS in your face. When you go to the restroom, it's very possible you're breathing in aerosolized faecal matter infested with SARS from the last person who went poo poo. Sending out tuition checks for chilling at home is bad enough, sending out those checks for breathing in SARS is worse. At least in residency they pay you, however nominally.

 

[esob]

I've maintained throughout this mess that this is perhaps a once in a lifetime opportunity for medical students to learn how to deal with a healthcare crisis. I think schools have failed to take advantage of this out of fear that some students might get sick which could lead to litigation. Medical students can perform scut work that frees up other providers time for more important work.

 

[thumbz]

I'm actually shocked that 70% of pollsters are happy to not be on rotation, I figured more people would want to be on the wards helping with this. Instead, this is going to be 10 years from now:

Freshly minted MS3: "You were a student during COVID? That must have been terrifying, what was it like??"
Freshly minted attending: "Those were dark days - I sat at home playing COD and had to do a zoom call for an hour a day to get credit for my IM rotation. I must have gained 20 lbs that summer with the gym closures"

 

[Chibucks15]

I would prefer to be on rotations but I understand why I'm expendable. I'm just happy the ones I will be missing aren't in what I actually wanna do

 

[errorscheduling]

I'm actually shocked that 70% of pollsters are happy to not be on rotation, I figured more people would want to be on the wards helping with this. Instead, this is going to be 10 years from now:

Freshly minted MS3: "You were a student during COVID? That must have been terrifying, what was it like??"
Freshly minted attending: "Those were dark days - I sat at home playing COD and had to do a zoom call for an hour a day to get credit for my IM rotation. I must have gained 20 lbs that summer with the gym closures"

I'd rather be at home, playing COD and using Zoom than going into the hospital and furthering community spread when I come home but hey, I'm just an unpaid body in a short white coat, why should I get to have any input on the safety and efficacy of the education I'm paying for. FOH

 

[thumbz]

I'm not here to shame or fight with anyone, I do understand the fear and anxiety that comes with looking after COVID patients (JAMA just published a nice study on it).

What I will say is in T minus 3 months a bunch of MS4's who just finished a 4 month vacation are going to start on my floors, and they're not getting cut any slack. I'll have the same expectations for them I have had for every new intern I've worked with. And they 100% are going to be caring for a lot of COVID patients (as let's be real, it's not going to magically be gone by July). For you current MS3's, enjoy the break. I'll be honest if I was in your shoes I would probably be thrilled to have the extended vacation as well.

 

[jurisburger]

I'm actually shocked that 70% of pollsters are happy to not be on rotation, I figured more people would want to be on the wards helping with this. Instead, this is going to be 10 years from now:

Freshly minted MS3: "You were a student during COVID? That must have been terrifying, what was it like??"
Freshly minted attending: "Those were dark days - I sat at home playing COD and had to do a zoom call for an hour a day to get credit for my IM rotation. I must have gained 20 lbs that summer with the gym closures"

How about "many of us were out donating blood, delivering meals in the community, performing childcare/running errands for healthcare staff, sewing makeshift gowns. We helped out where we could. Some of us were able to lend a hand clinically when the PPE supplies were replenished. Others smartly socially distanced themselves and/or lived with high risk family members and chose not to risk it."

You're an attending. You're obligated to be in the middle of the **** right now and everyone appreciates that. That doesn't mean everyone else should feel pressured to throw themselves in the fire prematurely when there are safer and equally viable ways to help.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

What I will say is in T minus 3 months a bunch of MS4's who just finished a 4 month vacation are going to start on my floors, and they're not getting cut any slack. I'll have the same expectations for them I have had for every new intern I've worked with.

I'm not seeing how this is different from other years.... I'm pretty sure MS4's have been taking extended vacations before residency since the days of the four bodily humours.

 

[jurassicpark]

During the swine flu, there was not a second thought having medical students round on the patients. I remember clearly one poor medical student all geared up in the ICU waiting to help a patient use the potty. It was a very interesting learning experience for everyone in training, and incredibly intense.

Now, my students were sent home to home study. Home study is NO substitute for actual hands on clinical/critical thinking, and quite frankly pandemics/epidemics/whatever will happen again and again in this day and age of globalization and probably more frequently.

That being said, the lack of PPE is a major issue. Those of us actually working are in absolutely short supply of PPE and from hospital to hospital the rules change. Some hospitals say no personal PPE may be brought in and used, and the masks and gowns are under lock and key. For hospital staff there is NO social distancing. There is no room for distancing, and of course we are the ones always being in the thick of where the sick come in, so whatever someone picked up is going to spread like wildfire.

There is no reason a student should be exposed to that and in turn expose others when there are not enough protective gear even for staff. And let's face it, most of the time students just get in the way and slow us down. When I have students my work speed is minimum 2x longer than without a student.

 

[Money-Moniker]

That being said, the lack of PPE is a major issue. Those of us actually working are in absolutely short supply of PPE and from hospital to hospital the rules change. Some hospitals say no personal PPE may be brought in and used, and the masks and gowns are under lock and key. For hospital staff there is NO social distancing. There is no room for distancing, and of course we are the ones always being in the thick of where the sick come in, so whatever someone picked up is going to spread like wildfire.

See, how the hell has this not sparked a mutiny? I'm here sitting on my butt enjoying my MS4 vacation and it infuriates me just hearing about it, let alone being affected by it. The chicken**** admin safe in their "working from home" mansions are withholding PPE from you while at the same time banning you from wearing your own? They're in effect telling you to risk your life and your long term health for the sake of public relations/optics and "you" are just complying? Absolutely mad, if I was an attending who was told to take off my personal PPE in favor of just breathing in the SARS laced air without protection I'd quit on the f...... spot and hire a lawyer the next day.

 

[deleted407021]

This isn’t likely to get better by July. It’s likely to be worse by then. I think we will all have ample opportunity to learn and grow clinically and as doctors from this pandemic.

That said, graduate me early and move my residency start date up and I’ll do it.

 

[Chibucks15]

Believe me you rather be expendable in the sense of not having to work rather than expendable in the sense of getting a potentially life threatening infection.

Oh exactly. I just hate feeling like its dedicated again haha except this time there isn't a set end date. But yeah we would serve 0 use in the hospitals right now

 

[wholeheartedly]

I get why students want the experience, but as an infection preventionist, right now it’s an absolute nightmare tracking who’s had contact with who and doing contact tracing with a sick staff member etc. The fewer people in the building right now, the better for everyone. Plus the PPE shortage. Patients are lying to get past the screeners saying they don’t have a fever and respiratory symptoms when they do. There’s no way to separate yourself from exposure anywhere in a clinical setting right now.

 

[esob]

You don’t think there might be other reasons than getting sued? Our entire outpatient clinics are turned into phone visits and only for essential needs. Every team has been converted to skeleton crews on the inpatient services. Doctors are being put in roles outside of their expertise. There’s a scarcity of medical supplies in some places. This is all because the patient demand is beginning to exceed what we can supply. So you want to be there for scut work using up supplies and potentially getting sick or being asymptomatic and spreading it to worsen it because you wanna play doctor?

cmon man!

Not every patient in the hospital has corona and yes, charting and other things can be done without PPE. And also yes, there is an opportunity cost to medical training, there always has and there always will be. MS4's are being graduated early all over the country to add bodies to the workforce so I'm apparently not the only one who thinks that medical students could contribute something to the fight.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

MS4's are being graduated early all over the country to add bodies to the workforce so I'm apparently not the only one who thinks that medical students could contribute something to the fight.

ACGME came out and basically told schools to hold their horses with that.

 

[esob]

ACGME came out and basically told schools to hold their horses with that.

Well, they urged them to "consider the ramifications," the most prominent of which is tied to reimbursements (apparently, b/c that's the one they chose to list). It wasn't like they came out and said: "ZOMG, are you kidding, there is no way an MS4 could do anything until they've finished that medical humanities elective they had slated for March." Even if they had, my only point was that there are people in the upper ranks of medical academia that are extolling the idea that you don't need to be a PGY9 to be of some use in a crisis. The move also speaks to the idea that there is a demand for more bodies, not less.

 

[KnuxNole]

See, how the hell has this not sparked a mutiny? I'm here sitting on my butt enjoying my MS4 vacation and it infuriates me just hearing about it, let alone being affected by it. The chicken**** admin safe in their "working from home" mansions are withholding PPE from you while at the same time banning you from wearing your own? They're in effect telling you to risk your life and your long term health for the sake of public relations/optics and "you" are just complying? Absolutely mad, if I was an attending who was told to take off my personal PPE in favor of just breathing in the SARS laced air without protection I'd quit on the f...... spot and hire a lawyer the next day.

At our facility, currently we aren't advised to bring in homemade PPE, unless "we have enough to supply everyone so no one is left out"

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Well, they urged them to "consider the ramifications," the most prominent of which is tied to reimbursements (apparently, b/c that's the one they chose to list). It wasn't like they came out and said: "ZOMG, are you kidding, there is no way an MS4 could do anything until they've finished that medical humanities elective they had slated for March." Even if they had, my only point was that there are people in the upper ranks of medical academia that are extolling the idea that you don't need to be a PGY9 to be of some use in a crisis. The move also speaks to the idea that there is a demand for more bodies, not less.

The statement had pretty clear undertones, it's fairly obvious they aren't in support of the idea. Until there is adequate PPE then there really isn't any reason for medical students to be involved unless the residents and attendings are dropping like flies.

I don't really hold the opinions of those in the upper ranks of medical academia that highly to be honest, mainly talking about those that run the organizations like the AAMC, AOA, NBME, NBOME, etc. Too often they've proven to not really care about what's best for students and that they have their own agenda.

 

[wholeheartedly]

Just for clarification on the PPE issue. At my hospital all of the following items on are on backorder and have been for weeks: surgical masks, N95 masks, PAPRs, isolation gowns, goggles, face shields. On backorder with multiple vendors. We can’t get it anywhere.

I’ve spent my day off trying to find some blackmarket alley to buy more N95s or other respirators for our staff. I’m at a small hospital and maybe it’s different at a bigger hospital, but I’m pretty sure if we could find some our CEO would authorize me buying it at price gouge prices. If they didn’t I’d pay out of my own damn pocket to get it for our staff.

We’re technically ok at the moment, but it’s going to go real fast.

 

[libertyyne]

Just for clarification on the PPE issue. At my hospital all of the following items on are on backorder and have been for weeks: surgical masks, N95 masks, PAPRs, isolation gowns, goggles, face shields. On backorder with multiple vendors. We can’t get it anywhere.

I’ve spent my day off trying to find some blackmarket alley to buy more N95s or other respirators for our staff. I’m at a small hospital and maybe it’s different at a bigger hospital, but I’m pretty sure if we could find some our CEO would authorize me buying it at price gouge prices. If they didn’t I’d pay out of my own damn pocket to get it for our staff.

We’re technically ok at the moment, but it’s going to go real fast.

Have you tried UV or an Ovens?
UV florescent tubes are available cheaper at specialty lighting stores.

doi: 10.1093/annhyg/mep070

N95 Mask Re-Use Strategies - SAGES

Personal protective equipment (PPE) shortages during the COVID-19 pandemic have precipitated a wave of creative solutions for repurposing of N95 masks. A growing influx of new information can make it difficult to discern best practices for mask re-use.

www.sages.org

 

[wholeheartedly]

Have you tried UV or an Ovens?
UV florescent tubes are available cheaper at specialty lighting stores.

doi: 10.1093/annhyg/mep070

N95 Mask Re-Use Strategies - SAGES

Personal protective equipment (PPE) shortages during the COVID-19 pandemic have precipitated a wave of creative solutions for repurposing of N95 masks. A growing influx of new information can make it difficult to discern best practices for mask re-use.

www.sages.org

We have UV disinfection robot and are working on a protocol for that. It’s not 100% though and while the filtration stays ok, the mask layers do break down eventually.

 

[esob]

It’s not a “fight.” You’re not a martyr. Find a hobby outside of medicine so you can think of this logically if it isn’t the only thing you got going on. MS4 outside of the first few months is a waste basket. If it isn’t then you’re not doing it right. Your first month of intern year will be more valuable than all of MS4 in terms of learning. Not everyone has coronavirus but hospitals are starting to act like everyone can potentially have it. Some hospitals require all employees to wear a mask during the work day.

Also no one really gives a **** about charting. We can do it efficiently and quickly and you slow it down. No one really cares about your education as it pertains to containing this pandemic.

First, let me clarify that I'm a retired combat medic who has probably seen more than you ever will in two lifetimes, so you should probably get off your high horse at least when you are talking to me. (that's my personal response).

Now, as for my duty response, I will simply note that you should try to act professional if you want to continue to participate in the community. Don't make derogatory remarks against other members just because you don't agree with their opinion, it's actually a violation of site standards. Let me be very clear, this is a gentle reminder to not make personal attacks against members and is not meant to construe a threat. As always, users are encouraged to use the report post button if they have an issue, after which the moderation team reviews content.

 

[esob]

The statement had pretty clear undertones, it's fairly obvious they aren't in support of the idea. Until there is adequate PPE then there really isn't any reason for medical students to be involved unless the residents and attendings are dropping like flies.

I don't really hold the opinions of those in the upper ranks of medical academia that highly to be honest, mainly talking about those that run the organizations like the AAMC, AOA, NBME, NBOME, etc. Too often they've proven to not really care about what's best for students and that they have their own agenda.

I mean, to be fair, the ACGME has its own agenda as well all things considered. But again, my point was to the guy above who keeps hurling personal attacks that the opinion I was expressing was not a novel idea, so, in the end, whatever the ACGME or anyone else thinks is moot to my point.

 

[Dr.Bruh]

I'm actually shocked that 70% of pollsters are happy to not be on rotation, I figured more people would want to be on the wards helping with this. Instead, this is going to be 10 years from now:

Freshly minted MS3: "You were a student during COVID? That must have been terrifying, what was it like??"
Freshly minted attending: "Those were dark days - I sat at home playing COD and had to do a zoom call for an hour a day to get credit for my IM rotation. I must have gained 20 lbs that summer with the gym closures"

Is this supposed to sound bad??

but I was actually shop 25% thought we should still be on rotations. That’s incredibly irresponsible from a public health standpoint. Any help we give via scut work will almost certainly be outweighed by further spreading of the virus.

 

[Mass Effect]

You don’t think there might be other reasons than getting sued? Our entire outpatient clinics are turned into phone visits and only for essential needs. Every team has been converted to skeleton crews on the inpatient services. Doctors are being put in roles outside of their expertise. There’s a scarcity of medical supplies in some places. This is all because the patient demand is beginning to exceed what we can supply. So you want to be there for scut work using up supplies and potentially getting sick or being asymptomatic and spreading it to worsen it because you wanna play doctor?

cmon man!

Don't you know that running stool samples to the lab teaches them how to deal with a healthcare crisis?

 

[Mass Effect]

See, how the hell has this not sparked a mutiny? I'm here sitting on my butt enjoying my MS4 vacation and it infuriates me just hearing about it, let alone being affected by it. The chicken**** admin safe in their "working from home" mansions are withholding PPE from you while at the same time banning you from wearing your own? They're in effect telling you to risk your life and your long term health for the sake of public relations/optics and "you" are just complying? Absolutely mad, if I was an attending who was told to take off my personal PPE in favor of just breathing in the SARS laced air without protection I'd quit on the f...... spot and hire a lawyer the next day.

PPE is under lock and key because people STEAL PPE so they can sell it for a profit. Many hospitals have it under lock and key and you show up everyday to get it from your admin at various centralized locations within the hospital. They're not withholding it. They're controlling it. There's a huge difference.

 

[Mass Effect]

The statement had pretty clear undertones, it's fairly obvious they aren't in support of the idea. Until there is adequate PPE then there really isn't any reason for medical students to be involved unless the residents and attendings are dropping like flies.

In some places they are. I'm fine with MS4s graduating early and coming to help, provided enough PPE. Rising 3s and rising 4s should be nowhere near the hospital.

 

[Premed2295]

Absolutely not.
4th years maybe, everyone else hell no.
Hospitals are short on PPE. Staff is overworked and can’t be teaching patients or redoing work students did potentially wrong.
Students are mainly in the prime age group to contract COVID and spread it without a single symptom.
Students should not be diverting resources at this time.

 

[libertyyne]

The question I have is do you think medical training should be suspended for the duration of this epidemic which undoubtedly is going to last months.

Is everyone ok with not having a fresh class of interns ?

 

[libertyyne]

4th year is so variable and garbage. I was going for a surgical subspecialty and changed my mind at the last second and my entire year was pretty much irrelevant as scheduled for my residency. I was basically an extra noob when I started. You learn more in 1 month as an intern being thrown in the fire than all of 4th year med school.

Yes, i understand that. But there are graduating requirements. Plus your interns are going to be even more useless with no clinical exposure for a long time. Plus you are holding back the rising third years. It seems odd that in a time where governors are literally asking for everyone including medical students in some states that we would stop all training.

 

[Mass Effect]

The question I have is do you think medical training should be suspended for the duration of this epidemic which undoubtedly is going to last months.

Is everyone ok with not having a fresh class of interns ?

I don't accept your premise. Rotations were suspended in March. Say schools start the academic year in July. That means that 4 months of third year was suspended. By July, we will hopefully be able to allow the former 3rd years to re-join the ranks. They will have 4 months to make up (some of which will likely not be made up) which is more than doable at most if not all schools. Unfortunately, it will cut in to electives and aways, but there's no reason it should result in a year-long delay.