Doctors make less than teachers/hour?

[DrRealistic]

Time Spent Becoming a Doctor
1: Bachelor’s Degree
• 40 hours/week
• 40 weeks/year
• 4 years
= 6,400 hours (to be a competitive candidate for medical school, this number is likely much higher in actuality)
2: Medical School
• 80 hours/week (that’s 2 full-time jobs)
• 48/weeks/year
• 4 years
= 15,360 hours
3: Residency
• 80 hours/week (that’s 2 full-time jobs)
• 50 weeks/year
• 3 years minimum up to 7 years (the first year is known as an internship)
= 12,000 – 28,000 hours
Residencies vary in length depending on the specialty
4: US Medical Licensing Exam
Pass all three parts of the US Medical Licensing Exam (USMLE)
5: Board Certified Specialist
Some additional steps and training are required to become board certified in a specialty.
For instance, to become…
A doctor in internal medicine you must:
• Graduate college with a Bachelor’s degree
• Graduate from medical school
• Pass all three USMLEs
• Take part in a 3-yr residency program
• Pass an internal medicine board exam
Total training/study time: 33,760 hours
A doctor in thoracic surgery you must:
• Graduate college with a Bachelor’s degree
• Graduate from medical school
• Pass all three USMLEs
• Take part in a 5-yr general surgery residency
• Take part in a 2-yr thoracic surgery fellowship
• Pass a thoracic surgery board exam
Total training/study time: 49,760 hours
Doctors spend an average of 40,000 hours training. That’s equivalent to 20 years of full-time work.
For the rest of their career, doctors work an average of 59.6 hours/week.
The average doctor’s career ends at 65. If they finish their residency at 29, they’ll spend 36 years working almost 1 ½ times more than most other Americans.
In other words, it would normally take 54 years to do the work that doctors do in 36.
Money Spent Becoming a Doctor
Undergraduate Student Budget
• Public schools: $22,826/year [formerly $19,338]
• Private schools: $44,750/year [formerly $39,028]
Average medical 4-year undergraduate student loan debt: $100,000
Medical School Student Budget
• Public medical school: $32,993/year [formerly $24,384]
• Private medical schools: $52,456/year [formerly $43,002]
(not include rent, utilities, food, transportation, health insurance, books, professional attire, licensing exam fees, or residency interview expenses)
Average 4-year medical school student loan debt: $200,000
Doctors often graduate medical school with well over $300,000 of student loan debt.

Residency
It would cost a doctor $1,753 per month ($21,037 yearly) just to pay the interest on a $300,000 loan. That’s almost half of a doctors average net residency income of $50,000.
So, for a doctor practicing internal medicine to forbear a $300,000 loan for three years during residency, then repay that loan for 20 years, it would result in an overall loan cost of $687,360. That’s $34,368 per year for 20 years.
Career
U.S. tax code allows deductions of up to $2,500 per year for student loan repayment—but that phases out for incomes between $115,000 and $145,000.
The average US doctor’s salary: $202,948
The average net income after a 28% federal tax rate: $146,123
After non-deductible student loan payments: $111,755
Lifetime Adjusted Net Hourly Wage
To determine a doctors’ overall lifetime hourly wage:
Find their lifetime net income:
(Net Annual Income * Years Worked) + (Residency Income* Years in Residency) – (Student Loan Debt)
• Take the average net annual income ($146,123) and multiply by the average number years worked (36) = $5,260,428
• Add the average net residency income ($50,000) and multiply by the number of residency years (3) = $150,000
• Subtract the total average cost of student debt = $687,360
• Lifetime net income = $4,723,068
Find their lifetime hours worked:
(Average Hours Worked Per Week x Weeks Worked Per Year x Years Worked) + (Hours Spent Training)
• Take the average number of hours worked per week (59.6)
• multiplied by the average number weeks worked per year (48)
• multiplied by the average number of years worked (36)
• Then add the total number of hours spent training (40,000)
• Lifetime hours worked = 142,989
Divide lifetime net income by lifetime hours worked = $33.03 per hour
– Compared to the average high school teacher –

Find their lifetime net income:
(Net Annual Income * Years Worked) + ( Net Pension Income* Years Received) – (Student Loan Debt)
• Take the average net annual income ($47,113) and multiply by the average number years worked (43) = $2,025,859
• Add the average net pension income ($35,507) and multiply by the average number of years received (15) = $532,605
• Subtract the average cost of student debt = $186,072
• Lifetime net income = $2,372,392
Find their lifetime hours worked:
(Average Hours Worked Per Week x Weeks Worked Per Year x Years Worked) + (Hours Spent Training)
• Take the average number of hours worked per week (40)
• multiplied by the average number weeks worked per year (38)
• multiplied by the average number number of years worked (43)
• Then add the total number of hours spent training (6,400)
• Lifetime hours worked = 71,760
Divide lifetime net income by lifetime hours worked = $33.06 per hour… about an apple a day more than a doctor.

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[psychapp121]

A lot of your assumptions are nonsense so no this is very inaccurate

 

[Deecee2DO]

this is completely idiotic. Go home troll

 

[IMGASMD]

Who cares.

Don’t do it if you don’t want to.
Don’t do it if you want to make big bucks.

No one is holding a gun and say you have to be a doctor.

Find your own reason to be a doctor, or teacher if that’s what you’re aspiring to be.

 

[libertyyne]

Money isn't everything.
No one is forcing anyone to become a doctor.
If you believe the analysis and money is your only driving force go become a teacher.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Your post hx shows that you think doctors should be making more than professional athletes and CEOs of the worlds top companies.

Please go do something else with your life. Even if physician salary was doubled tomorrow, you’d clearly never be satisfied.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Your post hx shows that you think doctors should be making more than professional athletes and CEOs of the worlds top companies.

Please go do something else with your life. Even if physician salary was doubled tomorrow, you’d clearly never be satisfied.

I mean I think physicians and teachers should be making more than people who throw balls around too, but I also never got the infatuation with athletes lol.

 

[Ho0v-man]

I mean I think physicians and teachers should be making more than people who throw balls around too, but I also never got the infatuation with athletes lol.

Me neither. But it’s pretty simple what you have to do: just develop a way to entertain millions of people with your craft. Easier said than done.

Dr Oz makes about 4 mil/year largely spewing nonsense. There’s similar roles on shows like “The Doctors” so OP can go for it if money‘s that important.

Levarr Burton made about 900k/year in the later days of Reading Rainbow. Neil Degrasse Tyson makes 320k/year. Bill Nye is worth over $6 million so there’s plenty to be made for people interested in education. Again, just doing it in a way that entertains the masses.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Me neither. But it’s pretty simple what you have to do: just develop a way to entertain millions of people with your craft. Easier said than done.

Dr Oz makes about 4 mil/year largely spewing nonsense. There’s similar roles on shows like “The Doctors” so OP can go for it if money‘s that important.

Levarr Burton made about 900k/year in the later days of Reading Rainbow. Neil Degrasse Tyson makes 320k/year. Bill Nye is worth over $6 million so there’s plenty to be made for people interested in education. Again, just doing it in a way that entertains the masses.

Oh yeah I get it. I mean I joined the military so clearly I don’t care about the money too much lol.

 

[goatmed]

Something about this argument seems intuitively wrong to me. Even though medical students aren't an image of wealth, I've been to a couple of physicians' homes and I don't think your average schoolteacher would be able to afford it even if he/she saved as much of his/her salary over 12 years.

This calculations are hard to dispute because it's a lot of very roughly estimated math we're supposed to take at face value. For instance, in my n=1 medical student experience, I don't spend 80 hours/week in medical school (nor do most preclinical students), and from my understanding 80 hours/week is the top amount of hours students may spend on their rotation per the policies of most schools. Similarly, the top hours for residents to work by law is 80/week, and yet the math also assumes that this is the average (i.e. that it is true for all specialties, since there should be nobody "above average.")

The debt calculations also seem to be overestimated. The AAMC graduation questionnaire cites the median total debt of the graduating medical student at about 200,000 and not the 300,000 the author who made the infographic you're copypasting estimates.

I don't know enough about teachers to critique the math on that side, but just looking at the numbers I can see whoever wrote this chose very ideal stats, like working from age 22 to retirement (which, unless younger teachers without bachelor degrees are commonplace, is not as the text says "average") and teacher pensions above $35,000 which are not the case in the vast majority of states.


Overall, this serves to underestimate the earnings of physicians and overestimate the earnings of teachers for the purpose of proving what I think is a bit of a specious argument.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

Op here are a few things inherently wrong with your analysis:

1) I don't spend 80 hours a week in medical school during preclinicals. I barely even spend 40 hrs/week. My secret is I skip classes like most other students. Even for rotations our school's policy is that the max amount of time we could spend on any particular rotations is 60hrs/week (12hrs/day) with weekends off.

2) No doctors spend 20 years paying off their students loans. Most of the people I talk with pay their loans off anywhere between 5 to 10 years.

3) You automatically have a fallacy there whenever you decided to go with $300,000 base student loans for physicians in your calculations instead of the average $200,000 whereas you actually used with the actual average student loans for teachers.

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[gyngyn]

This thread is from the following uncited source: The Deceptive Salary of Doctors - BestMedicalDegrees.com

 

[dpmd]

No one has mentioned the issue that it assumes 40 hrs per week for undergrad when plenty of people work part or full time and still get their degrees in 4 yrs.

 

[dpmd]

But yeah overall it is a pretty **** conglomeration of bad assumptions to inflate teacher salary and deflate the numbers for doctor.

 

[theKingLT]

Lets not forget something like half of all teachers have masters degrees which are not considered here in training hours. Also the only teachers working 40 hours per week are substitutes and tenured college professors.

 

[operaman]

Yeah as noted above very little about this post is remotely accurate. Pretty much every assumption going into the model is wrong and designed to come up with a shocking result.

Even for those who don’t bother to read through and see how the math is clearly flawed, one simply need look around and see many teachers leaving the profession within 5 years due to a combination of burnout and low pay that makes it unsustainable. While some docs leave for burnout, docs aren’t leaving en masse because they can’t afford to live on a meager doctors salary.

When common sense says a conclusion is wrong, 99% of the time the data and math are fatally flawed. That’s exactly what happened here.

 

[GoSpursGo]

Has nothing to do with medical school, so I’m moving to TIH

 

[FutureInternist]

No one is forcing anyone to become a doctor.

Have you met any Asian parents?

 

[IMGASMD]

Have you met any Asian parents?

Grow a set.
It’s your life.
They will be gone (most likely) before you. You are the one who will live with the decision until YOU die.

 

[deleted480308]

Op here are a few things inherently wrong with your analysis:

1) I don't spend 80 hours a week in medical school during preclinicals. I barely even spend 40 hrs/week. My secret is I skip classes like most other students. Even for rotations our school's policy is that the max amount of time we could spend on any particular rotations is 60hrs/week (12hrs/day) with weekends off.

2) No doctors spend 20 years paying off their students loans. Most of the people I talk with pay their loans off anywhere between 5 to 10 years.

3) You automatically have a fallacy there whenever you decided to go with $300,000 base student loans for physicians in your calculations instead of the average $200,000 whereas you actually used with the actual average student loans for teachers.

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I believe avg is over 200 now

 

[libertyyne]

The problem with the average or median debt statistics is that it fails to incorporate 1/4 of students who graduate with no debt, so it will underrepresent total debt taken on by students. Realistically debt taken out by students who have no other choice is probably closer to 300k .

 

[DrStephenStrange]

The problem with the average or median debt statistics is that it fails to incorporate 1/4 of students who graduate with no debt, so it will underrepresent total debt taken on by students. Realistically debt taken out by students who have no other choice is probably closer to 300k .

Same can also be said for teachers which is why I pointed that out.

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[libertyyne]

Same can also be said for teachers which is why I pointed that out.

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The debt side of the equation for teachers is not really pertinent to the question considering 200K for teachers is already an obscene number in the calculations, and actual debt for teachers is considerably smaller.

 

[Whysoez]

Have you met any Asian parents?

That is not true, Asian parents only force their kids into becoming Pharmacists.

 

[IMGASMD]

That is not true, Asian parents only force their kids into becoming Pharmacists.

??

 

[scoopdaboop]

A teacher can't buy a Bentley. I've seen several doctors where I used to work with bentley's. The buying power after residency etc. is massive compared to a teacher. Even with a 250 K loan, a doctor with a salary of 300K can pay that off in 3 years while living on ~ 8K a month AFTER loans and tax. What teacher even makes 8K a month BEFORE tax?

Plus, it's not like med school requires 80 hours a week like you mentioned. Maybe second years, but as a first year, I spend probably 40 hours. I have all the free time on the world on weekends to do what I want. You cannot travel for extended periods of time (in school, but during breaks yes) , but you still have a decent life.

Also, the years you spend in school is what you make of it. You can start a family, you can and should excersie daily, and live healthily to maximize your future career income.

Plus, let's say a student after residency is left with 325,000. He chooses 10 years to pay it off. THat ends up being (.068 % interest) rate, 10 years to pay off 546,000. 546000/120 = 4500 a month. A FM average salary is 245,000. After tax, he makes around 14 a month. 14k - 4500 = almost 10k a month to live comfortably AFTER tax. You can obviously work somewhere poopy and make more, and pay it off even faster. This is the second worst case scenario. Pediatrics being first if you base everything off financials/loans. Anesthesia, EM, pain, all pretty uncompetitive specialties, will make double a FM and easily pay off a pretty bad scenario of 325,000 loans.

 

[deleted936470]

this post lowered my CARS score

 

[FutureInternist]

this post lowered my CARS score

Can you explain that for those of us who took the MCAT in the “out of 45” era

 

[deleted936470]

Can you explain that for those of us who took the MCAT in the “out of 45” era

Oops, thought I was in the pre-med forum.
VR* score
FTFY

 

[AdductorMagnus]

This is also assuming that you will make $202,000 every year during your entire career as a doc. Even as a first-year out of residency primary care physician, you are likely to make more than that. In the first year. You cited the hours it took to become a CT surgeon, but you listed a far below-average primary care salary as the standard salary. Change that to $300k a year and you are more likely to have a more accurate estimate - for a primary care doc. Ct surgeons will make 450-800k a year (MGMA data says 750k is average. My dad is a high school teacher. I have seen the lifestyle of many debt-free young doctors. Your numbers are wrong.

 

[scoopdaboop]

This is also assuming that you will make $202,000 every year during your entire career as a doc. Even as a first-year out of residency primary care physician, you are likely to make more than that. In the first year. You cited the hours it took to become a CT surgeon, but you listed a far below-average primary care salary as the standard salary. Change that to $300k a year and you are more likely to have a more accurate estimate - for a primary care doc. Ct surgeons will make 450-800k a year (MGMA data says 750k is average. My dad is a high school teacher. I have seen the lifestyle of many debt-free young doctors. Your numbers are wrong.

its a clickbait type of post lol.