doctor's pay can't cover school cost

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sdntran

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My older brother went to a private medical school, costing him about $160,000 by the time he graduated. After fininishing a pediatric residency, he is currently making about $95,000 a year. Granted the lifestyle is great (no call), but, man, it brings me to tears thinking about his financial situation. After all the taxes, he takes home about $5,000 a month. With a housewife and 2 young kids, he easily spends about $4,000 a month. That's left about $1,000 for tuition payback. Assuming, he puts all the extra money into the payback, he would cut into his large medical school loan by about $12,000 per year. However, at 5% interest, he would have to pay $8,000 in interest, leaving him with only about $4,000 of the loan paid off per year. This payment scheme would take him about 40 f__king years to pay off the loan!!!

OK, his income is going to climb to perhaps $150,000 per year. But, I have not even taken into consideration of inflation, house mortgage, and saving for his retirement.

Don't be fool into thinking making money as a physician, especially if you are planning to become a generalist. A good electrical/computer engineer can make $100,000 in his second or third year after a BS degree. And if a person work that hard as he does in medical school, being "good" in any profession is certainly attainable.

On the other hand, being a doctor has its glamour. I know because I also went into medicine, but with a more practical head than my brother (who is wishing to undo the past). I picked radiology as for my career path and is now enjoying a $400,000/year salary on a 12 weeks vacation/year with hardly any student loan (thanks the state medical school, UCLA). So, before you leap into that 7-12 year path, please analyze the cost, what you are willing to do, and the reward so that you wont have to be sorry like my oldest brother.
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I don't mean to sound rude, but it's really hard to feel sorry for someone who's spending $4,000 a month. I mean, it's not that hard to do, especially with a couple of kids, but a whole lot of people make it on a LOT less than that.

It sounds like it's pretty much his choice to pay the loan off slowly -- having a wife who doesn't work, having a pretty posh lifestyle, etc -- and, as you said, he'll make a lot more money shortly.
 
I appreciate his struggle but at the same time recognize how his lifestyle actually represents just how much money 5,000 a month really is. In other words, the fact that his wife is able to stay at home and he is able to support kids, with money leftover, is a luxury in and of itself.
 
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Actually for $160,000 at 5% and paying $1,000 per month, a zero balance would be reached after 264 payments or about 22 years.
 
What about his malpractice insurance? Has that been factored in or not?
 
sdtran, I would say your brother should not be pittied, because it is his financial decisions that have put him where he is.

No other fields have the job security that a doctor has.


I know many people who have had to raise multiple children on 2,000 or less a year, with both husband and wife working full time just to stay afloat, so I have NO sympathy for him whatsoever.

If you can't live off nearly 100,000 a year, you are doing something wrong.
 
Originally posted by mpp
Actually for $160,000 at 5% and paying $1,000 per month, a zero balance would be reached after 264 payments or about 22 years.
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Ah, mpp, you always have been the one to set us straight on these matters. :cool:
 
He'll make more in a few years, but why expensive prive school just to be FP. You can go anywhere and be FP. Did he get bad grades or was this the plan all the way? There are certainly advantages to FP, especially with a family (I'll have to consider this eventually).
 
Originally posted by thackl
He'll make more in a few years, but why expensive prive school just to be FP. You can go anywhere and be FP. Did he get bad grades or was this the plan all the way? There are certainly advantages to FP, especially with a family (I'll have to consider this eventually).
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Perhaps not everyone is so lucky as to be accepted by their state school. Although I am happy about attending Northwestern,(leaving for chicago on fri! woohoo!) I would've enjoyed the significantly decreased costs of a UC. But alas I did not get in.

Sometimes it isn't so easy to go to the public school over the private. The public school has to accept you first. (Not saying this is what happened to the OP. But its one reason why one ends up a private school and becomes a FP) Also, considering almost half(i dunno what the exact figures are but typically a good number of students in a med school class end up doing primary care stuff) of most classes end up in primary care, its inevitable that there will be FP's from expensive private schools.
 
Also, making 90K is ridiculous. I know nurses who make 200K+
You have to know how to run a business too you know. 90K means the guy is a duffus.
 
Many people who go to private schools would have preferred going to their state school. Many times it just doesn't work out. And not just in California or New York. I know plenty of people from Georgia, North Carolina, and Alabama who got rejected by their state schools but were fortunate enough to get into private schools(Finch, Howard, and GW)

Going to any american allopathic school will put you in a good position to get just about any residency save a few. The difference between a wannabe radiologist going to ETSU vs. Vanderbilt may be the ETSU grad will end up with a community match whereas the vandy grad will get into a higher ranked university program. Look at the match lists for state schools that are supposed to be rural primary care oriented schools. You still see plenty of radiology and EM matches. Keep in mind that there are only three of four fields total where the match rate for US allopathic seniors is less than 80-85%(derm, urology, radonc). Even in orthopedic surgery the match rate is > 80% for US seniors. In semi-competitive fields like EM the US match rate approaches 100%.
 
doofus.
(spelling)
 
On the other hand, being a doctor has its glamour. I know because I also went into medicine, but with a more practical head than my brother (who is wishing to undo the past). I picked radiology as for my career path and is now enjoying a $400,000/year salary on a 12 weeks vacation/year with hardly any student loan (thanks the state medical school, UCLA). So, before you leap into that 7-12 year path, please analyze the cost, what you are willing to do, and the reward so that you wont have to be sorry like my oldest brother.

OK, so you have like 3 posts...and you are a radiologist and you are posting HERE? :laugh:

wow, sdn is gullible, I am actually in Tahiti right now NOT working either as a Radiation Oncologist, life is good, so the moral is specialize or you end up in the hole. But dude you can say that w/o all the drama. :rolleyes:
 
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Don't be fool, I is making lotsa money $$$.:D :laugh:
 
Originally posted by hightrump
Also, making 90K is ridiculous. I know nurses who make 200K+
You have to know how to run a business too you know. 90K means the guy is a duffus.
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fyi, don't feed the troll ppl
 
$4,000 a month is not that much. I think my mom makes almost that much at the postoffice. Not counting taxes though..... Still, she only has high school diploma.
 
"fyi, don't feed the troll ppl"

Listen, im not trying to be inflamatory. Im just trying to add some balance here. Pre-meds/med students should have an accurate idea of salary. So when one guy happens to find some amazingly bleak situation a doctor is in and presents it as the norm someone should say somthing. Dont call me the troll, your the one getting personal.


"Doofus"
I dont really pay much attention to grammar/spelling. My handwriting sucks as well. oh well.
 
wtf?? what kind of nurse makes 200K?!?!?!?!?
 
a good brother will lend his brother the money to pay off his loans and let him pay it back with no interest. 400 G's..... i'm sure you have plenty to spare....:rolleyes:
 
I have to agree with the posters above who blame your brother's lifestyle. Though I don't know what area of the country you live in, $4000 a month would be ultimate luxury for my husband and I, who are currently supporting two children and paying both his and my college tuitions on about half that. It's all in the decisions...we purchased a duplex instead of a single family house so that the rent from the other side would cover most of the mortgage-we don't have cable TV, we don't go out often, we buy our clothes at discount chains or clearance racks, etc.....all of our extra money goes into tae kwon do and dance lessons for our kids, we don't want them to suffer completely for it but they're also growing up learning how to manage money and shun the "conspicuous consumer" entitlement lifestyle that's becoming so prevalent....

It's all in how bad you want something....if he really wanted to get that paid off soon, he could. We're used to this lifestyle and plan to keep living it until everything's paid off. Added bonus-we'll hopefully produce children who can support themselves so that when it's finally all paid off we can have our dream house on a lake, the modified race cars we want, etc...
 
TROLL!!!!

There's a troll in the forum!!! Everybody RUN!!!


PS Bonus points for any who catch the Harry Potter reference...
 
"wtf?? what kind of nurse makes 200K?!?!?!?!?"

A nurse anesthetist who was smart enough not to work for somone else. She started a practice which has 5 of them. They contract out to hospitals. She makes the most of the group because ist her baby, but they all make 200K+.
 
Originally posted by sdntran
A good electrical/computer engineer can make $100,000 in his second or third year after a BS degree.
Click to expand...


Thats wrong. Yes, its POSSIBLE to make that much money if you start your own business or something, but then again to start your own business you dont even need to go to college at all.

The average that an engineering person gets is more like 50k, not 100k. The engineering profession currently has a 6% unemployment rate, higher than the national average.
 
My brother lives in southern california where the rent is high ($1600 - $2500) for a 2 bed room apartment. He really has to save by using Sunday coupons, waiting for movies to come out on videos, never taking a trip that requires flying, bringing lunch, surfing the net with NetZero, and taking advantage of the drug rep's freebies whenever he can. With $4000/month, he can barely survives. He can push his wife to work, but without a degree, she can only expect to make about 6 to 10 dollars an hour. The little money gain after paying uncle Sam and the baby sitter is better spent taking care of the 2 kids. My brother occasionally complained, "where is the million dollar home, where is vacation, where is the good life that I supposed to have?". So, if you have to struggle hard just to get into an expensive private medical school, think carefully about a career in medicine. Not everybody can become a specialist and makes tons of money. There is fierce competition even among the medical students. Getting an MD degree is not enough as my brother who coasted through medical school found out a little too late. I became interested in this forum as my fiance is preparing to apply for medical school and is looking for all the help she can get.
 
Originally posted by sdntran
My brother lives in southern california where the rent is high ($1600 - $2500) for a 2 bed room apartment.
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Where does your brother live? My roommates and I were paying $2200 a month for a nice luxury condo/townhouse just off othe 405 near the UCLA area. It had 4 bedrooms, 2 stories, nice kitchen, electric fireplace, huge master bedroom and nice master bath, 2 more bathrooms on top of that. We could rollerblade to the beach from our place. 2 underground, gated parking spots. I guess I can see 2k for a two bedroom place...but $2500?

Where is your brother practicing anyways?
 
Originally posted by sdntran
My brother occasionally complained, "where is the million dollar home, where is vacation, where is the good life that I supposed to have?".
Click to expand...

Now as a primary care doc one will probably not be purchasing Oprah's House anytime soon. But at the same time why is your brother just scraping by? He's not a resident anymore, right?
 
Originally posted by link26
a good brother will lend his brother the money to pay off his loans and let him pay it back with no interest. 400 G's..... i'm sure you have plenty to spare....:rolleyes:
Click to expand...

A good brother would just pay off the loan. You could pay off his loan in one year and it would not put a dent in your savings. That's what family is for, right?
 
What am I smoking? This is what waiting too long for orientation week does to you...you end up feeding these stupid trolls.

Just a few more hours til my flight! :)
 
troll?

as in hes lying?
 
a troll is someone who makes inflamatory posts to get attention.
see posts by Squat and Squeze for details
 
I've talked about this topic in the past...all I can say, sdntran, is that I do understand your brother's predicament.

By the time that we finished residency/fellowship, etc...our debt was quite similar to your brothers...though we also had some consumer debt for things like board exams, cross-country moves, etc.

My choice to be a stay-at-home mom during most of the time my husband was in training was a hardship, btw....not a luxury..and it is one that actually most people could make...there are very few people who truly couldn't make the sacrifice...but having been on both sides of the fence I don't make judgements. I get tired of listening to my whiny neighbors complain about how they wish that 'they' could be home with their children...but they own two nice cars, an expensive home, take two vacations a year.....For me staying at home even now has meant no vacations..we just got our second car last year after 9 years of marriage.....

People make choices....But I digress...

Our first year out of fellowship was a real shocker. My husband was earning ~120k before taxes...but once federal, state, local taxes and social security were removed, we actually were looking at 42% of the check being gone...which absolutely shocked the bejeesus out of us. When my hubby got his first pay stub in his box at work he called me in hysterics. We had estimated about 10% less deductions! I will say though that we ended up getting a good amount back at the end of the year....

We also had more consumer debt that we would have liked....but...in order for me to stay home (something that is well worth paying back loans on now) we had to take out a physician loan.

We literally spent the first two years living paycheck to paycheck and absolutely mortified and shocked that we were doing so....sure, we made some good choices and some bad choices during residency, etc...but overall we didn't make any choices that were any different than many, many, many of the medical families around us....


Now that my husband is partner, his salary has jumped up considerably and that has definately helped. For the first time in 10 years, we are doing things like....going to TGIF for dinner without fighting, worrying, etc.....We are actively paying down debt now and things will get better soon.....


kris
 
My brother occasionally complained, "where is the million dollar home, where is vacation, where is the good life that I supposed to have?".

Where is the grammar and usage that you -ARE- supposed to have?

Note: Insert "ARE" or "AM" to correct the above sentence...why not just write "where is tha phat life me suppose to lives..."

But seriously, repaying is rough but not to such an extent, I say if you KNOW you will do primary care look into govt. loans and such that are WAY CHEAPER to repay, and feeding trolss is fun...especially radiologists that make 400K, with lots of free time to post on SDN...LOL :rolleyes: :laugh:
 
I can empathize with many of you. I?m 32, my wife 30, and I?m an MS-III and my wife is still trying to finish her B.S. All I can say is that the path to becoming a doctor, especially for a non-trad, is one of sacrifice.

One sacrifice we?ve made is to not have children. As the parents on this forum can attest to, children are expensive. There is no way the both of us could pursue our education/career goals and have children.

We?re barely making ends meet with my HPSP stipend, my wife?s GI Bill, and student loans. I can?t imagine the financial devastation that would result from adding kids to the mix. Anyway, by the time we could really afford to have kids, we?d be too old. Not only because of the medical risks associated with her having children in her 40?s, but because we don?t want to be dealing with teenagers when we?re in our 60?s (could you imagine?)
 
I would say more than kids being expensive they are time consuming. I am barely making anything right now, and we can easily afford all the expenses that come along with have a child, but we have almost no social life. I know that will get better as my son is old enough to go to school, etc.
 
Bottom line is this:
If you are going to a private school with $30K+ tuition a year and also having to borrow money to live on, you are deluding yourself if you think that being a primary care doc is going to let you lead a good life anytime soon. Specialize people.
 
"I can empathize with many of you. I?m 32, my wife 30, ..........One sacrifice we?ve made is to not have children. As the parents on this forum can attest to, children are expensive. There is no way the both of us could pursue our education/career goals and have children.........We?re barely making ends meet with my HPSP stipend, my wife?s GI Bill, and student loans. I can?t imagine the financial devastation that would result from adding kids to the mix. Anyway, by the time we could really afford to have kids, we?d be too old. Not only because of the medical risks associated with her having children in her 40?s, but because we don?t want to be dealing with teenagers when we?re in our 60?s (could you imagine?)"

Children aren't expensive until they're older. Don't make a decision now. Reconsider in a couple years.
 
having kids costs $$ period. regardless of age.
 
Yes having kids is expensive, but you have to think about everything else about being a parent as well.

You don't have time or energy to go out as much and spend/waste money in other ways.

And as long as 1 person in the family is workin part time, you get HUGE tax breaks and credits for having a dependant child.

If someone really wants children, they can have them and afford them.

It reminds me of a saying I have read, "A person who wants to do something will find a way, someone who doesn't will find an excuse."


and I TOTALLY agree with the above, if you will have a lot of student debt (which most of us will), SPECIALIZE!!
 
Originally posted by kmnfive
having kids costs $$ period. regardless of age.
Click to expand...

Thank you I was thinking the same thing! I've got two girls (nearly 6-years-old, nearly 3-years-old) and they are definitely expensive money wise and time wise but I wouldn't change a thing!
 
Disgust. That one word could sum up my assertation of this guy's situation.

I too live in southern california. I'm familiar with the economy here. Based on the rental rates you described he's no doubt in one of the most expensive parts of orange country, which happens to be the most expensive counties in the nation. It also has the highest household income at 80k, and the poverty line here is set at 36k. So if you live here, and make less than that, you're considered poor. And let's put things in perspective, shall we? In the US, only approximately 30 percent of americans make more than the average US salary of 32k/year. only 5 percent top out at 50k, and a paltry 1-3 percent make over 100k per year. And this is of course in AMERICA, which owns approximately 25 percent, or 10 trillion of the entire world's wealth. is is thusly the wealthiest nation in the world.

Statistics aside, I know people who live in the same area as your brother, and believe me, they get by on a heck of a lot less than 5k/month. This is quite simply a case of poor money management and very unrealistic expectations. Welcome to the real world! I can name at least half a dozen cities in your brother's area where he could pay around 1k/month for a 2 bedroom apt, or get a mortgage for about the same. Will he live in newport beach, irvine, or one of the most affluent communities? No, but these are all things he should have considered before accepting a position in this area at that salary. Being a FP doesn't help, but he could have settled in a much more fiscally affordable area. And if worse comes to worse- COMMUTE! So it sounds as if he needs a reality check and some financial planning classes to be more realistic.
Bottom line is that he's going to learn either the easy way, or the hard way, that he's writing checks his butt can't cash

As for 100K in the engineering field, it is very possible depending on the area you're in, and the specialization you go into. If you were to go into say, IC design, or aerospace engineering, it's very possible, although competition would be more fierce since the fallout in the economy. But yes, it's very possible, and I speak from experience.

ciao;)

P.S. Tell that lazy wife of his she needs to get off her butt and go back to school. Perhaps if she applied herself instead of being codependent and expecting everything to be handed to her, she would have gone farther in life and not be sitting around waiting for the check to come in the mail. I'll admit this strikes a nerve with me. I've seen this all too often and it irks me. Women scream for equal rights, then women such as THIS one who basically add the caveat that "I'll work unless my husband is so wealthy I don't need to" sets back ERA about 50 years each time. I know I'm being harsh, and I'm not intentionally offending, but 50 bucks says there isn't a guy who reads this who isn't thinking thinking the exact same thing. Get off the couch, drop the bon bons, and go to school or get a part time job.

That is all for now ladies and gentlemen- I bid you a fond farewell. Good afternoon, good evening, and goodnight:cool:
 
Originally posted by MacGyver
Thats wrong. Yes, its POSSIBLE to make that much money if you start your own business or something, but then again to start your own business you dont even need to go to college at all.

The average that an engineering person gets is more like 50k, not 100k. The engineering profession currently has a 6% unemployment rate, higher than the national average.
Click to expand...

I guess it depends where u live. The job I had at in computer paid me 6 figures in my 2nd/3rd year in NYC. 6 figures in NYC isn't alot tho if u want to actually live in Manhattan.

I think it would definately help if doctors had some business training in med school. There are alot more possiblities out there than just what you take home in salary.
 
why could a doc not pay??

really... there should be no reason...

it is so easy to get many various scholarships, grants, etc to help pay for most or even all of medical school if you agree to go work in a rural area. what is a rural area? check out a rural area map. most of the usa is considered rural.

ok so you got your med degree, working as a fp in a rural setting no loans... now what? 100k+ is not good enought for you? ah yes, you want that million dollar house, i forgot about that... do you have a problem with working? if not then set up multiple practices headed up by you in that small community, rack in a ton of money over about 5-10 yrs, and build your multimillion dollar greed home after your contract is up.

wait... you want your cash cow without work... how in the world did u make it through med skoo??

there are just so many opportunities as a doctor, that you should never be "poor" and you will always be very well off. if you think otherwise, then go back to the hole you came out of because just for starters, if you have luxery to type and read off of the computer, then you are already at the high 10%+ of ALL ppl in the world... you greedy bastardz
 
Originally posted by sdntran
My older brother went to a private medical school, costing him about $160,000 by the time he graduated. After fininishing a pediatric residency, he is currently making about $95,000 a year. Granted the lifestyle is great (no call), but, man, it brings me to tears thinking about his financial situation. After all the taxes, he takes home about $5,000 a month. With a housewife and 2 young kids, he easily spends about $4,000 a month. That's left about $1,000 for tuition payback. Assuming, he puts all the extra money into the payback, he would cut into his large medical school loan by about $12,000 per year. However, at 5% interest, he would have to pay $8,000 in interest, leaving him with only about $4,000 of the loan paid off per year. This payment scheme would take him about 40 f__king years to pay off the loan!!!

OK, his income is going to climb to perhaps $150,000 per year. But, I have not even taken into consideration of inflation, house mortgage, and saving for his retirement.

Don't be fool into thinking making money as a physician, especially if you are planning to become a generalist. A good electrical/computer engineer can make $100,000 in his second or third year after a BS degree. And if a person work that hard as he does in medical school, being "good" in any profession is certainly attainable.

On the other hand, being a doctor has its glamour. I know because I also went into medicine, but with a more practical head than my brother (who is wishing to undo the past). I picked radiology as for my career path and is now enjoying a $400,000/year salary on a 12 weeks vacation/year with hardly any student loan (thanks the state medical school, UCLA). So, before you leap into that 7-12 year path, please analyze the cost, what you are willing to do, and the reward so that you wont have to be sorry like my oldest brother.
Click to expand...

I thought 5,000 a month was only $60,000 a year unless my math is all wrong
 
No more stupid posts. Seriously. When have you seen a doctor pan handling?
 
God damn, stop bringing back troll threads from the past.
 
Leave it to cooldreams to bring back old troll threads.
 
I think that poor doctors are the result of poor financial planning.

P.S. Maybe your brother should move to Georgia, it's really cheap out here :D
 
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