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yes its wrong...
that 5000 is AFTER taxes... you are looking at before taxes to equal his 95000... after = 60000
doctor's pay can't cover school cost
- Thread starter sdntran
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yes its wrong...
that 5000 is AFTER taxes... you are looking at before taxes to equal his 95000... after = 60000
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ok... whatever that means???
I think an important distinction needs to be made. Going to a state school isn't always cheaper. Some private schools have average debt equivalent to a state school. I got offered a scholarship from a private school that would make my future education cheaper there than at my state school.
When I was accepted to my state school I quickly turned them down. It is fine if your state school is Cali or NY but,when your state school is in the middle of nowhere, where ALL the students are married, all the graduates end up in state (a very dull, isolated state in my book), not competitive residencies, I wouldn't care even if I was going into debt at a private school, its about quality of life!!!
When I was accepted to my state school I quickly turned them down. It is fine if your state school is Cali or NY but,when your state school is in the middle of nowhere, where ALL the students are married, all the graduates end up in state (a very dull, isolated state in my book), not competitive residencies, I wouldn't care even if I was going into debt at a private school, its about quality of life!!!
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Nurse anesthetists. Not all of them, of course, but there are PLENTY in the $150,000 range.
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If anesthesiologists are in the 200K neighborhood for salary, I find this a very hard to believe data point. Hospitals hire nurse practitioners insated of family practice docs because they can do most of the same work for quite a bit less money. I find it hard to believe that there are many nurse anesthestists running around getting a salary that is only slightly discounted to the average MD anesthesioligist. In short, I doubt the average nurse anesthetist's salary breaks six figures.
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It's true.
And, about people not making money... it's really up to you. If you're in it for the money, take out a loan, open up a practice, hire physicians and make that $300k-$500k (it's harder than that, but that's a little summary). If you're in it to help people only, take the 100k and shut up. If you tie business it, you can be rich like the 1980's doctors.
Yup, Family Nurse Practitioner makes only about $60k compared to FP doc who makes $120k.
However CRNA (Nurse anesthetist) can make $120k compared to MDA (Anesthesiologist) who makes $250k. The pay is a lot better in a rural area like Maine where they cannot get enough CRNAs or MDAs. In Boston the pay is lower and the CRNAs don't get as much responsibility. In the rural areas they may provide all the care.
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"If ya can't feed ya baby (yeah, yeah), then don't have a baby (yeah, yeah)"
and don't live in southern california.
and don't live in southern california.
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D
deleted36260
The average milliionare in this country makes ~85,000/yr and holds ~1.2million in wealth (from 'The Millionare Next Door').
Your friend is blowing all of his money. If he cut his lifestyle and invested a portion of that money properly he could easily start making 150,000 a year. In fact, with Bush's tax cuts, he is in an even better postion to invest that money at the moment.
I have no sympathy for those that cannot manage their money, even after 12 years of school and training!!
Your friend is blowing all of his money. If he cut his lifestyle and invested a portion of that money properly he could easily start making 150,000 a year. In fact, with Bush's tax cuts, he is in an even better postion to invest that money at the moment.
I have no sympathy for those that cannot manage their money, even after 12 years of school and training!!
Amy B
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My husband (mechanical BS and Aerospace BS) didn't break $100,000 as an engineer. He did it as a manager, and a director of projects.
There is no way in heck that an engineer 2 years out of school is making $100,000. No way.
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amy, im an EE... the highest i heard of someone from my class was like 85000 as a national salesman - right out of school. i think that that would probablly get up there...
but you are very right, the money in engineering is not doing what a typical engineer does, but rather managing a bunch of engineers...
but you are very right, the money in engineering is not doing what a typical engineer does, but rather managing a bunch of engineers...
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i didn't mean to imply that ALL engineers make 6 figs. my spouse and i are engineers, and many of our classmates from college are engineers in different industries, in different parts of the country. at about 5 yrs out of school, it was not uncommon to be making 6 figs, doing engineering work, not sales or managment. it all depends on location and industry. my point is only that it's possible, and from my experience, common.
anyway, how did we get to this topic? the thread started out talking about making money as a primary care physician.
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I can't believe you guys are letting yourselves get trolled...but I had to jump in.
SDNtran,
If your brother expects to have a nice house/car right after residency, then he's probably too dumb to be a doctor.
My advice to you: stop trolling, finish your undergrad and start reading lots of books because judging from your grammer you need to get an early start on mcat VR.
~Lubdubb
SDNtran,
If your brother expects to have a nice house/car right after residency, then he's probably too dumb to be a doctor.
My advice to you: stop trolling, finish your undergrad and start reading lots of books because judging from your grammer you need to get an early start on mcat VR.
~Lubdubb
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People make the life of a doctor seem glamorous but it may not be that way at all when people finally become doctors. If you are doing it for the benjaminz, you better make the right choices.
The fact of the matter is that the only way a doctor can make money is not just by getting an MD BUT becoming a doctor with know-how of business and the world at large. That's one reason why I really suggest MD wannabe's take business majors.
If anything, your brother should relocate to another state, find another job, and/or set up his own family practice. There are a lot of rural states that are in desperate need of doctors and with a far cheaper lifestyle than other states - your brother can have it all. A house, extra money on the side, or pay off his tuition. Also, states like that are good for raising kids. I think your brother should rethink his goals and make a financial plan and should look at other options. You are talking about it as if the situation is hopeless, i mean he's a doctor!
My two cents. People shouldn't complain and whine so much. I'll tell you that things could be a lot worse.
The fact of the matter is that the only way a doctor can make money is not just by getting an MD BUT becoming a doctor with know-how of business and the world at large. That's one reason why I really suggest MD wannabe's take business majors.
If anything, your brother should relocate to another state, find another job, and/or set up his own family practice. There are a lot of rural states that are in desperate need of doctors and with a far cheaper lifestyle than other states - your brother can have it all. A house, extra money on the side, or pay off his tuition. Also, states like that are good for raising kids. I think your brother should rethink his goals and make a financial plan and should look at other options. You are talking about it as if the situation is hopeless, i mean he's a doctor!
My two cents. People shouldn't complain and whine so much. I'll tell you that things could be a lot worse.
8
8744
Just for perspective, Mechanical and Civil engineers start at around 40K here in Northern Louisiana. I was making about 52K after about six years (and professional registration) and considered myself ridiculously over-payed. Before I quit my last company to start my own engineering firm I could have reasonably expected to work my way into project management and make about 65K.
The way to make money in engineering is to "consult." No overhead, no expensive office staff, very little equipment, and most of your hourly rate you can pocket. If you run a firm you run the risk of having a bad year or two in which some of your key emplyees will make more then you will. (because you don't want to "hire and fire" your key staff.) You can weather a downturn if your overhead is low.
On the other hand, having a firm with employees gives you the flexibility to take on large projects. A couple good projects can set you up for a few years.
Folks, where I live, even a Family Practice physician can reasonably expect to make about 130K just out of residency. This is nothing to sneeze at considereing that this probably puts one in the top 0.001 percent of wage earners in Louisiana. General Surgeons start in the low 200K I'm told.
It is dumb to go into medicine for the money. But the money ain't bad. So what if you're paying $1500 per month for your student loans? An FP in the middle of his career probably makes 150K here. That's $12500 per month. So you pay off your loan and you are left with a $11000 per month gross income. (Are student loan payments deductible?) Man. The average income in my city is about $25,000 per year. If you can't live on $11000 per month then something is wrong with your lifestyle.
The way to make money in engineering is to "consult." No overhead, no expensive office staff, very little equipment, and most of your hourly rate you can pocket. If you run a firm you run the risk of having a bad year or two in which some of your key emplyees will make more then you will. (because you don't want to "hire and fire" your key staff.) You can weather a downturn if your overhead is low.
On the other hand, having a firm with employees gives you the flexibility to take on large projects. A couple good projects can set you up for a few years.
Folks, where I live, even a Family Practice physician can reasonably expect to make about 130K just out of residency. This is nothing to sneeze at considereing that this probably puts one in the top 0.001 percent of wage earners in Louisiana. General Surgeons start in the low 200K I'm told.
It is dumb to go into medicine for the money. But the money ain't bad. So what if you're paying $1500 per month for your student loans? An FP in the middle of his career probably makes 150K here. That's $12500 per month. So you pay off your loan and you are left with a $11000 per month gross income. (Are student loan payments deductible?) Man. The average income in my city is about $25,000 per year. If you can't live on $11000 per month then something is wrong with your lifestyle.
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Your math is off....( Im just using arbitrary numbers and situations) dont forget that your taxes in this great country will run about 39% of your income.....so for your "avg" FP at 150K youll be paying $58,500 in taxes (will change depending on your other assets). Do you live in a state with a State income taxes? Take out more. Now factor in some Malpractice insurance. In PA even for FP it runs at $17,000/yr. (for OB/Gyn...it runs greater than $95,000/yr!!!!). If you do OB in FP expect to be paying greater than $25,000/yr. So basically your FP is down to $6K/mo. That 30yr "mortgage" (consolidated student loans) of $200,000 even at 2.8% will get pretty hefty by the end, but the payments will eat up at least $1K/mo. Now at $5K/mo. Now you have a home....a reasonably priced one, in a reasonable neighborhood, in a suburb, of a major city. The home is avg priced at $350,000. Mortgage will run over $1500/mo. Now down to $3500/mo for spending. What about a car? Family? Does wife/husband work? Kids? Is there 2 cars for both incomes? If duel income....what about childcare? How about a life insurance policy? Kids college savings? Retirement funding? General investments? Not as great as it seemed at first. Remember, youll be in that "top 0.001 percent of wage earners", so dont be expecting any sympathy from others or the government. Instead, hear the Democrats moan about why the "rich" get tax breaks. And you wont qualify for any government freebies.
The government is screwing doctors. Why? Because lawyers run the country.
stomper
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Remember that average physician incomes have business costs, such as insurance, factored in. However, if the cost of insurance goes up, then gross income will decrease.
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those taxes seem quite high, especially in light that you can deduct many MANY things that docs do, such as insurance... pay 50k in insurance? well now your taxable income came down from 150k to 100k... you are in a new lower tax bracket now... good for you.... etc... if you are really good, and own ur own practice, then give yourself very little income. put the money into the company, then EVEN MORE things become deductable, espeecially then because it is considere a small business(sooo many tax breaks and advantages given to a small business) making under like 30mill or something a year... pretty soon you are not paying much taxes at all. yay...
also again, living in lousiana, there must be some rural area near, so if you were to hook up with a rural area that needs you, you could probablly get them to pay ur student loans, or at least most of them... oops there goes the student loan cost... yay...
350k house in louisiana?? holy **** thats a freakin mansion man.... you are livin in style!
sure its all about the benjamens... but if you know what ur doin, then you will never have a problem as a doc... you are set... there should not be any reason to complain... end of story...
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I guess the fact that I grew up dirt poor makes me just a little but nauseas when I hear you guys whining about only bringing in 5k a month in after tax income. WAHHHHHWAHHHHHWAHHHHHHHWAHHHHHHHHHHH
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This is from the IRS site:
"In 2001, taxpayers reporting adjusted gross income of $127,904 ranked among the nation's top 5 percent of earners, and $292,913 was necessary to break into the top 1 percent. A year earlier in 2000, the income threshold for the top 5 percent had been $128,336, and the threshold for the top 1 percent had been more than $20,000 higher, $313,469."
For those whining about not making enough, most of America really can't feel your pain.
"In 2001, taxpayers reporting adjusted gross income of $127,904 ranked among the nation's top 5 percent of earners, and $292,913 was necessary to break into the top 1 percent. A year earlier in 2000, the income threshold for the top 5 percent had been $128,336, and the threshold for the top 1 percent had been more than $20,000 higher, $313,469."
For those whining about not making enough, most of America really can't feel your pain.
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Look...
I never stated its not managable, nor should it be that you cant live well off. Im only stating that for those that went into this thinking they were going to be "rich" might choose another profession.
I grew up a son of a physician, and I know the headaches. Did my parents have money. Yes. Were they responsible? Yes. Were we rich. Hardly. Did others think we were rich? Yes. Why? Because of the Dr. Title. But I do remember him upset year after year doing his taxes and realizing that he was paying $45,000+/yr in taxes.
Yes...perhaps in Lousiana a house of 350,000 is a mansion. I didnt say rural america. I stated in a "suburb of a major city" Now I will say growing up in a suburb of Seattle (an hour from downtown, if no traffic), in the mountain foothills, that 350,000 would only get you a reasonable home. My parents home, they bought for $98,000 in 1980, its worth 5x that amount now.
My fiancees parents home on Long Island? A 350,000 home is about 1500sq ft. Hardly a mansion. Cousins home outside of San Francisco? Forget about it.
The big point is money headaches are there no matter how much money you make. The more money earned, the more hassles there is with your money. The more issues you have to deal with, the more you have to watch your butt (litigious society....deep pockets!!!). etc. Its not easy, but it can be done.
stomper
I never stated its not managable, nor should it be that you cant live well off. Im only stating that for those that went into this thinking they were going to be "rich" might choose another profession.
I grew up a son of a physician, and I know the headaches. Did my parents have money. Yes. Were they responsible? Yes. Were we rich. Hardly. Did others think we were rich? Yes. Why? Because of the Dr. Title. But I do remember him upset year after year doing his taxes and realizing that he was paying $45,000+/yr in taxes.
Yes...perhaps in Lousiana a house of 350,000 is a mansion. I didnt say rural america. I stated in a "suburb of a major city" Now I will say growing up in a suburb of Seattle (an hour from downtown, if no traffic), in the mountain foothills, that 350,000 would only get you a reasonable home. My parents home, they bought for $98,000 in 1980, its worth 5x that amount now.
My fiancees parents home on Long Island? A 350,000 home is about 1500sq ft. Hardly a mansion. Cousins home outside of San Francisco? Forget about it.
The big point is money headaches are there no matter how much money you make. The more money earned, the more hassles there is with your money. The more issues you have to deal with, the more you have to watch your butt (litigious society....deep pockets!!!). etc. Its not easy, but it can be done.
stomper
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ok stomper.. i agree with you... i just hear it from some ppl that think that they will be instant millionaires, in a huge mansion on the pacific coast beach front in their italian cars... while this CAN be done, it will not come without a lot of work and dedication. i am in kansas city, and a rich suburb around here can give you a very large house on a lake for 250k+... so i guess its perspective...
didnt u guys see that post by someone quote that nextdoor millionaire book? the average millionaire earns about 85,000 GROSS a year. nice huh? there are reasons........
jus some thoughts...
didnt u guys see that post by someone quote that nextdoor millionaire book? the average millionaire earns about 85,000 GROSS a year. nice huh? there are reasons........
jus some thoughts...
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Yeah....if you are wise with your money, it doesnt take that long to aquire a mill, in assests. The problem with medicine, is a) the time and money to get there...you start late, and have another "mortgage" of loans on top. and b) malpractice insurance, which will destroy medicine if nothing is done about it.
Did you realize that our govt now taxes us more (%age wise) than what England taxed our country's founding fathers? Food for thought.......
stomper
Did you realize that our govt now taxes us more (%age wise) than what England taxed our country's founding fathers? Food for thought.......
stomper
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wow thats cool.. i really didnt know that about the taxation.. at least we have representation now hehehe...
n e waz i honestly dont care... im a more live for now kinda guy... and if i have enough to get by, then im set. i dont plan on ever retiring, so any retirement fund means nothing to me.
i do know i really REALLY enjoy helping ppl in anything i can... so im happy and set...
life is what you make of it, if you are upset that you are only taking home 80000 instead 90000 or 900000 then i guess u r just a really upset kinda dood... im happy as long as i have God...
its amazing really,, i dont have much, i guess by most docs standards, but im really happy, and living it up... i have a really personal relationship with God and life just couldnt be better.
hope you all can find happiness out there somehow... money or not....
n e waz i honestly dont care... im a more live for now kinda guy... and if i have enough to get by, then im set. i dont plan on ever retiring, so any retirement fund means nothing to me.
i do know i really REALLY enjoy helping ppl in anything i can... so im happy and set...
life is what you make of it, if you are upset that you are only taking home 80000 instead 90000 or 900000 then i guess u r just a really upset kinda dood... im happy as long as i have God...
its amazing really,, i dont have much, i guess by most docs standards, but im really happy, and living it up... i have a really personal relationship with God and life just couldnt be better.
hope you all can find happiness out there somehow... money or not....
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I admire your "live in the now" views, and even your religious aspects (although, I myself am not a religious person, I am spiritual....another debate for another time)....
Me, my planning is for my family, not necessarily for me. If I happen to live in the now, and not save for either retirement or for death, what would happen to my (future) wife and kids if I die? I know my student loans would be forgiven, but not the house/car/etc.
Me, my planning is for my family, not necessarily for me. If I happen to live in the now, and not save for either retirement or for death, what would happen to my (future) wife and kids if I die? I know my student loans would be forgiven, but not the house/car/etc.
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as an fp, you make like on ave about 150k a year...
if either of my parents had died, the life insurance on them was like about 100k. thas all that we would have had.. that was based on twice their income.
i dunno man... still just doesnt seem to be that huge of a deal. leave me (future) family with 300k in life insurance, minus taxes?? ... house and stuff probablly paid for... i dunno....
if either of my parents had died, the life insurance on them was like about 100k. thas all that we would have had.. that was based on twice their income.
i dunno man... still just doesnt seem to be that huge of a deal. leave me (future) family with 300k in life insurance, minus taxes?? ... house and stuff probablly paid for... i dunno....
8
8744
No. You're wrong.
First of all, $150K is gross income from salary, not gross income from business. (At least according to all the salary surveys I have seen.) In other words, after business expenses. if you own your own practice or are part of a group, this is the equivalent of a salary. (but physicians who own their own practices do very, very well here in Louisiana, especially in the rural areas.) If you work for the group but are not "bought in" then this is a salary.
As for taxes, well, everybody in every profession pays them. Shocking but true. All I can say is vote Republican. But I'd rather be paying income tax on $150K then $52K. Your absolute, take-home, after-taxes, money to burn is still going to be three times higher then mine was as a registered professional civil engineer.
By your logic, Doctors are actually not making any money and are forced to eat government cheese. Fortunantly, most of the things you list as expenses which will eat up your salary (mortage, cars, kids, insurance, etc.) are the the things which we are supposed to pay for and for which we work. Do you see my point? It is a heck of a lot easier to make a mortage payment, own two cars, put the kids in private school, and save some money if your gross income is $150K then if it is $35K. I feel like I'm belaboring the obvious here, but I believe that many of you (and I don't mean this to sound demeaning) have never supported a family and think that money spent on the neccessities of life is somehow being stolen from you.
And $350K for a house? Man. I agree with a previous poster. In Louisiana that buys you the Taj Mahal. My house is 2000 Sq feet in a nice neighborhood with a big yard and we payed 115K. Our mortage is about $350 per month. One day we hope to move up in the world and buy a 2400 square foot house but even then we will probably pay less then $200K. And I don't think I want a bigger house then that. (increased housework, maintenance, heating, cooling, etc.)
A few things:
First, if the cost of living in your area is sky-high then move. Medicine is one of the few professions where you can make a better salary in a more rural area. There are many fine, low cost of living cities in "fly-over" country. If you need to live in Boston or San Francisco then good for you. But you're paying for access to whatever it is that these cities offer. For our part, my wife and I have decided that we'd rather live in Shreveport then my wife's native but high-cost city of Burlington, Vermont. (We're both originally from Vermont, by the way, another high cost-of-living state)
We're not really "artsy" or "cultural" people so we don't feel like we're sacrificing too much. For the record, you can now get sushi in Shreveport and we have two Starbucks.
Second, the tax picture is not as bleak as you make it out to be. Consult with a CPA before you start making money and he will find all kinds of creative but perectly legal ways to shelter your income. We did all kinds of things when I was a self-employed engineer, even one year qualifying for the earned income tax credit. And we survived an audit and were given a clean bill of health.
Third, saving for college is overrated. I fully expect my children to go to one of our decent but inexpensive state universities. My Alma Mater runs about $5000 per year for tuition. Your children can emancipate themselves and, other then being lost as a tax-deduction to you, they can take out loans just like everybody else. Of course we'll help them pay for college. But there's a huge difference between sending three kids to Harvard (for $36,000 per year for tution) then Louisiana Tech. By the time your kids are college age, most of you will outright own your homes, the equity of which can be borrowed against. (second mortage)
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Life insurance proceeds are not taxed if the go to a benificiary. They are only taxed if the recipient is the decedants estate.
Also, 300K is not too much for coverage. I just bought a $750,000 and I'm only starting as an intern in July.
Ed
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Good points....
Im impressed that you vote republican....and yes I do realize that everyone pays taxes. Im not argueing that Drs arent better off than most, they are. Yet do you not feel you should be compensated for the cost of your education? I do....I will have a mortgage without a house when Im finished with school.
My problems lie with where exactly does my tax money go? We all have to live within our own means....why does the govt not have too? I have to live within a budget every year, yet if the govt overspends....the simple plan is to raise taxes. Where is the responsibility? And when states finally tell them they have to (like oregon recently did), they make statements that the "poor will lose......" or we will have to cut funding from this social program...." There is more than one way to trim a budget.
As far as medicine is concerned....does it not worry you that in many states the cost of malpractice has gone up 600% in the past 5 years? Yes, that will start to eat at your take home. Especially since insurance reimbursements have gone down during that same span. Medicaid reimbursement doesnt even cover overhead. Boy, would I hate to see what would happen if the govt, took control for all of healthcare.
College tuition? Only going up....much faster rates than inflation. When I was at Wash. St U. in 1993-94, in state tuition was $3000 for the year. By the time my brother was there in 2000 it was $6000. I will hate to see what happens in the next 20 years....considering I dont have kids yet.
stomper
Im impressed that you vote republican....and yes I do realize that everyone pays taxes. Im not argueing that Drs arent better off than most, they are. Yet do you not feel you should be compensated for the cost of your education? I do....I will have a mortgage without a house when Im finished with school.
My problems lie with where exactly does my tax money go? We all have to live within our own means....why does the govt not have too? I have to live within a budget every year, yet if the govt overspends....the simple plan is to raise taxes. Where is the responsibility? And when states finally tell them they have to (like oregon recently did), they make statements that the "poor will lose......" or we will have to cut funding from this social program...." There is more than one way to trim a budget.
As far as medicine is concerned....does it not worry you that in many states the cost of malpractice has gone up 600% in the past 5 years? Yes, that will start to eat at your take home. Especially since insurance reimbursements have gone down during that same span. Medicaid reimbursement doesnt even cover overhead. Boy, would I hate to see what would happen if the govt, took control for all of healthcare.
College tuition? Only going up....much faster rates than inflation. When I was at Wash. St U. in 1993-94, in state tuition was $3000 for the year. By the time my brother was there in 2000 it was $6000. I will hate to see what happens in the next 20 years....considering I dont have kids yet.
stomper
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I agree! Despite a federal government surplus a few years ago, we are now looking at an enormous deficit that will only get bigger. So why do we make decisions like cutting taxes (revenue) during wartime? The government is definitely not living within its means.
Sorry, but I had to weigh in on the other side. There are many examples of government inefficiency/waste, and not all of them involve those pesky "social programs."
8
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Well, yeah. But the topic was that Doctors don't make enough money to cover living expenses, not use and abuse of federal taxation. Everybody pays taxes, not just doctors.
I do not think we should be compensated for the cost of our education. (Although if somebody offered to pay back my loans I'd accept) Like I said, if I will gross $12,000 per month I will not regret paying $1000 of that per month on my initial investment which allowed me to do so well. If I hadn't gone to medical school I would probably peak at a salary of $5000 per month out of which I would still pay taxes and have the same expenses.
Don't worry about college tuition. It is a buyers market for higher education. (Too many schools chasing too few students.) It is certainly too early to start panicing about paying for college for children who you don't even have. My wife and I made it through college with loans, a few odd-jobs, and things like that. Don't sweat it. DOn't believe the gunner-hype about sending your kids to "ranked" schools.
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Did you know that interest on ANY educational loan is a tax write-off??
This poor guy needs to do more research on managing finances or talk to someone that knows about it more. There are so many little loop-holes where you can get out of paying the typical 40-45% many end up paying uncle Sam. Honestly I know nothing about it except for a few things but this is why I'm marrying a financial analyst/accountant!
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Well, not quite. There is an income phase out which starts, I believe at $65,000. So after residency, almost all of us will lose this write off (take home message: pay the accrued interest in your second to last year of residency).
Ed
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People are often confused by our taxation system. The percentage of tax paid for a specific tax bracket only represents the MARGINAL tax rate. This means for every dollar you earn over whichever amount the 39% tax bracket starts, you pay 39% of it to the gov't. Likewise, for the very first dollar you earn you will pay the tax percentage associated with the lowest tax bracket. In total, the amount of tax you pay on 150 000 is a reflection of your AVERAGE tax rate, which is generally much less than your MARGINAL TAX RATE.
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Yes, I am chiming in. I went to the top engineering school in the country have BSEE and MSEE from there. Starting out BS engineers in *any* discipline do not, on average, make anywhere near 100K. Perhaps during the dot-com frenzy (which is way dead) people in parts of Cali may have made 100K briefly, but then most of them became unemployed when Wall St self-corrected. It takes several years out of school, an advanced degree, and management experience to hit 6 figures in engineering. Plus the salary grades flatten WAY out as you move along.
People don't go into engineering to make salaries like MD Specialties.
But the points about in-state tuition vs Private are well-taken. I was told that if you decide to do a Private school you have to decide what kind of medicine you want to practice (ie you need to specialize to recoup the debt).
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I agree with what OldLady said (I like your nick
) and I want to add that engineers today won't make 100K unless you're a) in management or b) a superstar engineer.If you want to make serious money, get into business or do some of it as part of your work. I'm in the latter camp and I saw my salary rocket past the 100K mark within two years of finishing college. The CEO of my company in his best year made $7 million.
Last time I checked, this is a medical forum, not an engineering one.
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Unfortunately, the benefit is very lame.
I just did my taxes last night, so this is fresh in my mind.
For 2003, the income threshold is 50k for single, 100k for joint. Like previously mentioned, the phase out starts here.
Additionally, the maximum is only $2500 to start with. So if you make less than the threshold, you get the $2500 "off the top" deduction.
If you make more than the threshold, any amount BEYOND the threshold gets divided by 15000. If the result is 1.00 or more, you still get the $2500 maximum. If the result is less than 1.00, you multiply the maximum $2500 by that factor and that's all you get.
So remember that most of what you are paying in the early years is interest, if you paid $1000/month back on your loans, it's very reasonable to expect that you paid at least $10,000 in interest. If your salary as a doctor is $110,000, you'll only be able to deduct $1667.
If you start repayment on interest as a resident (figuring about $40,000 salary), you'll only be able to deduct about $200/month's worth of interest. Of course, starting to pay back your loans as a resident might be a good idea to reduce overall interest. Then again, if your loans are at 3-5%, it can be argued that it would be better to invest the money you would be paying back into other areas that will most likely payoff better than 3-5%.
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We all have to remember that we have choices. Some people who are living just above the poverty line, or below, make choices between eating and feeding their kids, or food vs. heat. My wife and I have three kids. We have discussed what we will do with the almost 200K debt that we will have after school, on a peds salary. Since we will be used to living on a very small budget for 4 years during school, we made the CHOICE to keep that lifestyle and payoff the loans. We will probably by a new car and a very small house, because it makes financial sense. Other than that we will pay off the loans and be better off in the long run. Using all of my residency salary towards loans should help to pay them of in 5+ years.
I don't knock anyone who believes in live in the now lifestyle, but don't complain that it's going to take 20+ years to pay-off your loans, it's the choice you made. Take responsibility. 100K salary is better gotta be better than 80% of the country.
As for taxes, even if I didn't have kids to right off, I'd still rather have the problem of paying taxes on 100K vs. the 30K I make now. In the future I'll probably pay in taxes the amount of my entire annual salary now. However, that still means I am taking home more than 2X my current salary, and that's before they take out taxes now! What a rough way to live!!
In short, as Jenni said earlier, my wife and I gross about 5000/ month, we have everything we need, and my kids can get pretty much whatever they want. We don't buy them everything, in fact they mostly get books from us, very few toys. We want them to learn that they have it very good, and people in other places would kill to be in the position they're in. I hold on to that message as well, so if i can't provide for my family on 7-8k after taxes then there are issues other than not having enough money.
Sorry, for the long post I used to be on the other side and know many people who seems to do just fine on 20K per year, it's all about perspective and choice.
I don't knock anyone who believes in live in the now lifestyle, but don't complain that it's going to take 20+ years to pay-off your loans, it's the choice you made. Take responsibility. 100K salary is better gotta be better than 80% of the country.
As for taxes, even if I didn't have kids to right off, I'd still rather have the problem of paying taxes on 100K vs. the 30K I make now. In the future I'll probably pay in taxes the amount of my entire annual salary now. However, that still means I am taking home more than 2X my current salary, and that's before they take out taxes now! What a rough way to live!!
In short, as Jenni said earlier, my wife and I gross about 5000/ month, we have everything we need, and my kids can get pretty much whatever they want. We don't buy them everything, in fact they mostly get books from us, very few toys. We want them to learn that they have it very good, and people in other places would kill to be in the position they're in. I hold on to that message as well, so if i can't provide for my family on 7-8k after taxes then there are issues other than not having enough money.
Sorry, for the long post I used to be on the other side and know many people who seems to do just fine on 20K per year, it's all about perspective and choice.
Originally posted by Mr Reddly
How much do/should they make? 50? 60? 70? what? Come on, I want specifics here!interview on thursday
It depends on what kind of engineer you are...
ChE is the highest paid undergraduate major (of any) fresh out of college (according to several career services trade publications) and average 55-56k.
CompE/EE do not fall far behind, making in the low 50s.
MechE are next, hovering around an average of 47-48k.
Civil brings up the rear, making in the upper 30s, lower 40s on average.
Just remember, if you are asked in an interview what you want to make, never commit to a number, because they will never offer you more than that...it's a better policy to say, "Well, my classmates have been offered salaries in this range ($ to $) and I feel that the quality of my work places me at the top of my class", but don't forget to quote those classmates making more!
Last years' seniors from my ChE program make between $48,000 and $63,000. The MechEs I know make $47,000 and $49,000.
Good luck on the interview, I hope it all works out for you like you want!
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actually it was my understanding that the petroleum engineers make the most... but so few jobs... eh...
seemed like most engineers around about 50k coming outta skoo...
seemed like most engineers around about 50k coming outta skoo...
