Doctors support universal health care: survey

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Please elaborate

In mass we've seen that mandatory health care really doesn't improve overall health/access

there are not enough primary care docs. The base of the triangle needs to be expanded by quality people.

also, gyms should be accessible to the poor, lifestyle changes need to be made in america

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These are things republicans and liberals should be able to come together on, no?
 
I'll bet a significant portion of them don't have high school diplomas.

How early does their 'laziness' start? Or is it really about lack of role models and lack of information...lack of an ability to make the right choices?

We live in a free country. There is no lack of ability to make a right choice. Secondly, all those are are excuses. Just because you didn't have a role model doesn't mean your choice to not try in school is acceptable. Yes, it does make you more likely to make poor choices, but it doesn't mean you shouldn't be held 100% accountable for them.
 
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In mass we've seen that mandatory health care really doesn't improve overall health/access

ok

there are not enough primary care docs. The base of the triangle needs to be expanded by quality people.

True

also, gyms should be accessible to the poor, lifestyle changes need to be made in america

The first one already exists. They are called shoes and a road.
 
We live in a free country. There is no lack of ability to make a right choice. Secondly, all those are are excuses. Just because you didn't have a role model doesn't mean your choice to not try in school is acceptable. Yes, it does make you more likely to make poor choices, but it doesn't mean you shouldn't be held 100% accountable for them.

I don't know, I guess I just agree with you about the black and white categorization of 'right choice'.

I've worked with too many poor people who are trying to lead good lives, but don't have the tools to do it, to say that they are simply making poor choices. And I came from that group, I know what a struggle it is.

Accountable for your decisions? Sure. But recognize that the government exists to make sure everyone has an equal chance from the get go, and that isn't happening right now. So how can those people be 100% accountable all their lives?

Example, how many people can self-teach themselves study habits?
 
Sure, go run about in the projects

nice trolling though

Who said they had to run in the projects? I'm sure the rest of the city (i.e. parks) are open to them. If they have the ability to get to a gym, they have the ability to get out of the projects.

P.S. This isn't trolling. And by your use of it in this discussion you obviously don't know what trolling is.
 
And I came from that group, I know what a struggle it is.

And you have been successful. If one can, then everyone can.

Accountable for your decisions? Sure. But recognize that the government exists to make sure everyone has an equal chance from the get go, and that isn't happening right now. So how can those people be 100% accountable all their lives?

Negatory.

Example, how many people can self-teach themselves study habits?

I did for one. And most everyone I have ever met did.
 
Who said they had to run in the projects? I'm sure the rest of the city (i.e. parks) are open to them. If they have the ability to get to a gym, they have the ability to get out of the projects.

P.S. This isn't trolling. And by your use of it in this discussion you obviously don't know what trolling is.

example of trolling: your daddy probably never brought you in from the suburbs long enough for you to see a city and understand what projects are.

ps-I guess you could be right you might not have been trolling. I was simply giving you the benefit of the doubt.
 
And you have been successful. If one can, then everyone can.

also, I don't pretend that everyone else is as spectacular as I am.

Most people who are born at the top stay there. Most people born at the bottom stay there. Guess we were both lucky.

I think it would be nice if everyone was born in the middle, and had an equal chance at the get go of making it.

What is the purpose of government if not to provide freedom and equality?
 
oh, who has time to teach themselves study habits?

when they have to work at Burger King after school to help with the rent?
 
example of trolling: your daddy probably never brought you in from the suburbs long enough for you to see a city and understand what projects are.

Actually he did. He would drive me in to the projects for me to be a mentor to disadvantaged youth.
 
Actually he did. He would drive me in to the projects for me to be a mentor to disadvantaged youth.
you were very lucky to have a father who cared about you and instilled values such as caring for the disadvantaged.
 
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also, I don't pretend that everyone else is as spectacular as I am.

Why don't you hold them to the same standards?

I think it would be nice if everyone was born in the middle, and had an equal chance at the get go of making it.

I can agree with that.

What is the purpose of government if not to provide freedom and equality?

The fundamental purpose of government is the maintenance of basic security and public order — without which individuals cannot attempt to find happiness. People in a community create and submit to government for the purpose of establishing for themselves, safety and public order.

oh, who has time to teach themselves study habits?

when they have to work at Burger King after school to help with the rent?

You do that while you study. It is trial and error. You see what doesn't work and try something else.
 
also, gyms should be accessible to the poor, lifestyle changes need to be made in america
Do you honestly think that would make any difference? First off, the YMCA offers "scholarships" to low-income families to allow them access to their facilities (or at least the one I used to go to had this program). Secondly, there are running trails all over the place. You can take the stairs instead of the elevator.

The problem is massive portions, massively decreased foot traffic (visit a city like London or Paris and see how different it is), and an endless supply of entertainment that can be enjoyed all whilst sitting on one's ever expanding duff.
 
What is the purpose of government if not to provide freedom and equality?
Whoa there, where does the Constitution say that the role of government is to PROVIDE equality? And of what sort? Equally large televisions for all? The government is there to protect the freedoms of everyone, but it's not there to provide new Nikes and Louis Vuittons for everyone.
 
The fundamental purpose of government is the maintenance of basic security and public order — without which individuals cannot attempt to find happiness. People in a community create and submit to government for the purpose of establishing for themselves, safety and public order.

Well, I guess this gets to the root of what we probably disagree on. I agree that this is one component (although I shudder w/ nightmares of 1984). I think that government should do more. I think it should strive to make sure everyone has equal opportunity from the start of life, that the playing field is level. After that, a person makes their own choices. An impossible goal, but health care for me stems from this belief.

Health is necessary to succeed in your goal (whatever that may be). As the gap between the haves and the have nots widens, cannot help but think that this hurts future generations, and because they start off a leg down instead of a leg up, I guess I feel they should at least be given the benefit of the doubt when it comes to health.

But I'm glad we identified the roots
 
Do you honestly think that would make any difference? First off, the YMCA offers "scholarships" to low-income families to allow them access to their facilities (or at least the one I used to go to had this program). Secondly, there are running trails all over the place. You can take the stairs instead of the elevator.

The problem is massive portions, massively decreased foot traffic (visit a city like London or Paris and see how different it is), and an endless supply of entertainment that can be enjoyed all whilst sitting on one's ever expanding duff.
Yes, I agree. How do we combat this? People aren't making poor choices here simply because they were born americans.

I'm not sure how to combat it. I know that I use to be in atlanta, and 75% of people worked out, but the quarter who didnt were largely below the poverty line.

Poor people tend to lead unhealthy lifestyles. Giving them insurance won't help...how do we get them to work out and choose better paths?

It doesnt help that the worst foods are also the cheapest.
 
Whoa there, where does the Constitution say that the role of government is to PROVIDE equality? And of what sort? Equally large televisions for all? The government is there to protect the freedoms of everyone, but it's not there to provide new Nikes and Louis Vuittons for everyone.
Ha ha.

No, I meant that government should strive to create a society where, at day one, baby A has the same chance for success as baby B.

Right now, it seems to favor a caste system
 
Do you honestly think that would make any difference? First off, the YMCA offers "scholarships" to low-income families to allow them access to their facilities (or at least the one I used to go to had this program). Secondly, there are running trails all over the place. You can take the stairs instead of the elevator.

The problem is massive portions, massively decreased foot traffic (visit a city like London or Paris and see how different it is), and an endless supply of entertainment that can be enjoyed all whilst sitting on one's ever expanding duff.

May be it would be interesting if you could suggest some ways we could curtail these, ah, more negative points of our society?
 
I've met a lot of doctors who feel this way, including recent graduates. I'm not sure why there is so much sentiment against this here on the Republican Doctor Network, but it's unfortunate.

So you support the Democratic way. More for social losers taken from people who actually earned it. Let's face it. All people are not worth the same and never will be. And also, you can't teach motivation. I'm sick of their liberal propaganda and fascism as much as neo-cons preaching about the Iraq war. I think I saw it somewhere on this forum where the poster stated that all people are created equal, but after that, you earn your reputation.

Back to the point, why would any physician support the idea of someone else controlling their life? Money is not the only issue. It's being forced to practice in a certain way by external forces who don't know jack but want miraculous results. I hope that all physicians close their doors on that day and show the US who deserves what. And let there be "moral outrage" since all those pansies standing around the coffee machine deserve free care for their "hard" work.
 
Ha ha.

No, I meant that government should strive to create a society where, at day one, baby A has the same chance for success as baby B.

Right now, it seems to favor a caste system

It doesn't favor a caste system. It favors what you want. The only problem is that the children who are born are born into families who are not good role models for them. It is a vicious cycle. And who is to say that it wouldn't happen again if the government implemented your plan? Unless you want a government that continuously maintains a society where everyone is equal, we will end up in the same situation we are in now. There will be people in the past that make bad decisions and then will not be a good role model for their kids. Their kids will then make bad decisions as well and then will have children. Eventually we reach a point where an entire culture is in the lower class and it seems to them that they are the red headed step children of society and are unable to get ahead. You see the problem?
 
I think I saw it somewhere on this forum where the poster stated that all people are created equal, but after that, you earn your reputation.

What about the unfortunate people who are born with nothing, not even a working knowledge of what 'reputation' is? Versus the person who is born with everything?

we are created equal, but when we are created we are born into whatever problems or success' our parents have. Everyone here has had an uphill struggle, but for the majority of that hill is steeper than the minority.
 
It doesn't favor a caste system. It favors what you want. The only problem is that the children who are born are born into families who are not good role models for them. It is a vicious cycle. And who is to say that it wouldn't happen again if the government implemented your plan? Unless you want a government that continuously maintains a society where everyone is equal, we will end up in the same situation we are in now. There will be people in the past that make bad decisions and then will not be a good role model for their kids. Their kids will then make bad decisions as well and then will have children. Eventually we reach a point where an entire culture is in the lower class and it seems to them that they are the red headed step children of society and are unable to get ahead. You see the problem?

Yes, it is a problem. Government shouldn't provide everything, but what should it provide? We probably agree on public education...but right now our schools and public education are in decline...

What is government providing us? Iraq?

It should provide tools that, when taken advantage of, allow people to reach success.
 
Whoa there, where does the Constitution say that the role of government is to PROVIDE equality? And of what sort? Equally large televisions for all? The government is there to protect the freedoms of everyone, but it's not there to provide new Nikes and Louis Vuittons for everyone.

:laugh::laugh:

This thread is over. We have a winner.
 
I don't know, I guess I just agree with you about the black and white categorization of 'right choice'.

I've worked with too many poor people who are trying to lead good lives, but don't have the tools to do it, to say that they are simply making poor choices. And I came from that group, I know what a struggle it is.

Accountable for your decisions? Sure. But recognize that the government exists to make sure everyone has an equal chance from the get go, and that isn't happening right now. So how can those people be 100% accountable all their lives?

Example, how many people can self-teach themselves study habits?
I didn't realize that our government changed over to communism :confused:
 
Yes, it is a problem. Government shouldn't provide everything, but what should it provide? We probably agree on public education...but right now our schools and public education are in decline...

What is government providing us? Iraq?

It should provide tools that, when taken advantage of, allow people to reach success.
It does. I like to call it freedom of choice and free will.
 
So you support the Democratic way. More for social losers taken from people who actually earned it. Let's face it. All people are not worth the same and never will be. And also, you can't teach motivation. I'm sick of their liberal propaganda and fascism as much as neo-cons preaching about the Iraq war. I think I saw it somewhere on this forum where the poster stated that all people are created equal, but after that, you earn your reputation.

Back to the point, why would any physician support the idea of someone else controlling their life? Money is not the only issue. It's being forced to practice in a certain way by external forces who don't know jack but want miraculous results. I hope that all physicians close their doors on that day and show the US who deserves what. And let there be "moral outrage" since all those pansies standing around the coffee machine deserve free care for their "hard" work.

:thumbup:
 
May be it would be interesting if you could suggest some ways we could curtail these, ah, more negative points of our society?
It certainly wouldn't be easy, and many of the solutions aren't really something that the government should be in the position of implementing. Decrease portion sizes, decrease the caloric content of snack foods, make more cities conducive to walking/cycling to work, increase public transportation (if only so that people will at least walk through the large train stations), provide assorted incentives for remaining healthy, etc.
 
It certainly wouldn't be easy, and many of the solutions aren't really something that the government should be in the position of implementing. Decrease portion sizes, decrease the caloric content of snack foods, make more cities conducive to walking/cycling to work, increase public transportation (if only so that people will at least walk through the large train stations), provide assorted incentives for remaining healthy, etc.

If socialized medicine (not universal coverage) ever happens, I could easily see the government regulating these types of things, in addition to alcohol and tobacco.
 
It should provide tools that, when taken advantage of, allow people to reach success.
I'm more of the opinion that the government should stay out of people's path to success, not carry them along that path. I think many times the government has intervened with good intentions, but we've ended up suffering as a result. I think that one of the reasons that tuition costs for higher education have soared is that the government provides federal student loans. It sounds like a great idea to allow everyone access to higher education, but it allows these institutions to raise their tuition at an astronomical rate. My undergrad tuition nearly doubled while I was a student (a lengthy four year stint).
 
If socialized medicine (not universal coverage) ever happens, I could easily see the government regulating these types of things, in addition to alcohol and tobacco.
It certainly sounds plausible despite the fact that I think it's unconstitutional.
 
All people are not worth the same and never will be.
\

That's quite a strong statement statement. Do you treat your patients differently based on your evaluation of their worthiness? They used to do that with transplants...the doctors in the community got together and decided who would receive the organ based on who was most "worthy to live."
 
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They used to do that with transplants...the doctors in the community got together and decided who would receive the organ based on who was most "worthy to live."

I don't have a problem with that. Who do you think deserves to live more? A 35 yr old. husband and father of 3 that is diagnosed with hepatocellular carcinoma and needs a new liver or a 45 yr old man who needs a new liver because of his cirrhosis due to his alcoholism?
 
I don't have a problem with that. Who do you think deserves to live more? A 35 yr old. husband and father of 3 that is diagnosed with hepatocellular carcinoma and needs a new liver or a 45 yr old man who needs a new liver because of his cirrhosis due to his alcoholism?

I would certainly oppose a person receiving a liver if there were indications that they were continuing to drink. However, while I don't recall the actual amount of time, a person does have to demonstrate a lengthy period of absolute sobriety before becoming a candidate for a transplant. I don't think making mistakes in one's past makes a person worthy to die. I support the way decisions are made now, based on immediacy of need and likelihood of success. Not that the current method isn't somewhat arbitrary as well, but I don't think it's that easy to define which characteristics make someone more worthy to live or die. Do you get a certain number of "points" for charity work? Who is more valuable, a nurse or a teacher? Are you off the list if you have a criminal conviction?
 
I dont see what the big deal is about socialized medicine from a doctors point of view. Sure salaries will decrease but they will never go below Canada's and doctors over there can still make 300K. They also dont have malpractice problems like us, and dont work as much as us. I doubt the quality of care will decrease, longer wait times is the only consequence i can realistically see happening. And that will eventually be balanced out in 10-15 years or so due to the fact that medical schools are opening more slots.
 
Ha ha.

No, I meant that government should strive to create a society where, at day one, baby A has the same chance for success as baby B.

This was tried its called fascism and totalitarianism. Mussolini started it...then the American Progressives in the 1920's tried it under Wilson (even to the point that the NY times, Wilson, New Yorker etc were saying that the constitution had outlived its usefulness and an american dictator was the new way, because SEE you can't make baby A and B equal if you LET them make their own choices cause they may make a dumb choice and ruin the social order) Hell liberals today think that prohibition was a conservative thought No it was the progressives trying to create a utopian society...seems that drunks don't fit in with that vision.

Then there is Hitler who had his Jewish solution but before that demanded a universal health care system, a jobs program, universal schools program, a health program that demanded certain foods and exercises, and many more. Just to clue you in with history he was ALSO trying to create that happy society without inequality or strife.

And lets finish with FDR who opposed to popular belief was quite interested in being the next american dictator. No you say? Well then tell me why if he was so great that not many years later we would have a 2-term limit amendment to the constitution ratified by congress and 3/4 of the states.

The problem with modern liberalism is that there is too much time spent on creating history through some new thing than actually reading history (and no wikipedia doesn't count). And thus we get lead down the primrose over and over again with every new "crisis".
 
I dont see what the big deal is about socialized medicine from a doctors point of view. Sure salaries will decrease but they will never go below Canada's and doctors over there can still make 300K. They also dont have malpractice problems like us, and dont work as much as us. I doubt the quality of care will decrease, longer wait times is the only consequence i can realistically see happening. And that will eventually be balanced out in 10-15 years or so due to the fact that medical schools are opening more slots.
What assurance do you have that they would never go below that of Canada's?

Also, don't assume that we're only looking at this from a doctor's point of view. I've also been a patient, and I'm also a citizen of the USA. I don't want to see our country make a huge decision that I would consider to be a mistake, as well as the fact that I don't think a single payer system is legal. I'd consider the merits of a state-based system.
 
Then there is Hitler who had his Jewish solution but before that demanded a universal health care system, a jobs program, universal schools program, a health program that demanded certain foods and exercises, and many more. Just to clue you in with history he was ALSO trying to create that happy society without inequality or strife.

Hahaha you've officially just lost this argument.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law
 
Where we disagree is who does what. I do not trust the federal government to run healthcare in any way shape or form. Now before you retort saying that you aren't arguing for universal healthcare, go back and read my posts again and try to find where I said I was against a law that requires everyone to have health insurance.

As a moderate liberal even I agree with this statement. There's no way we can honestly trust the current government in power, given the plethora of scandals, cover-ups, and goofs these past 8 years.
 
Hahaha you've officially just lost this argument.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
You do realize that Godwin's Law doesn't mean he lost the argument, right? It seems that you've just invoked Quirk's Exception.
 
I think this tidbit by Panda is relevant:

http://www.pandabearmd.com/
The problem today, and surely FDR must be rolling in his grave, is that people refuse to oblige the state by dying at a reasonable age. Where once people routinely expired long before they could collect a single dime of government benefits , now the selfish bastards live many years beyond the time when a good citizen, if he really cared about the financial solvency of his nation, would sheepishly shuffle off his mortal coil to avoid offending anyone. In the United States, most of our socialism is for the elderly and they are voracious consumers of it, everything from Medicare to Social Security, the rich bounty of which many reap in excess to the contributions they have made when they were productive citizens back when Nixon was President. It's a serious problem. The projected cost of supplying just medical care to the elderly is estimated to be around 40 trillion dollars in the next fifteen years. That's 40 trillion dollars, most of which we do not have and yet are legally obliged to pay as Medicare, like Jehovah, lives in the Holy of Holies and death will strike down the blasphemer who dares suggest that we cut back on the burnt offerings.

Cut back we must. There is no way to pay this huge and rapidly growing sum. No way at all. Socialism in the United States (and everywhere else), as it is depends on a large pool of young workers paying the benefits for a small group or beneficiaries who play shuffleboard, totter around the house, and then obliging die before they can make too many demands on the system, is unsustainable. People are just living too long with too many medical problems all of which need to be carefully managed at great expense to ensure their ability to continue to use finite resources. A bit of a Catch-22 situation, I mean looking at it from a cold-blooded economic perspective.

It's not that I am against taking care of the elderly. I'm all for it. I am just pointing out that shortly, very shortly, the decision not only to do it but to what extent is going to be taken out of our hands by two of the major principles of economics, first that nobody works for free and second, that you can't pay for things forever with money you don't have. You can borrow for a while but eventually your creditors will catch on that you cannot possibly pay them and the ride on the artificial prosperity train is over. One way or another we are heading for extreme rationing of medical care, either overtly or covertly, because there is no money to pay for unlimited access to all the health care you can eat. Surely our elected leaders know this but still not only promise to maintain the current levels of medical care to those already eating from the public trough but to extend similar benefits to everyone else. There is no money. We cannot add another 40 trillion to the projected deficit with impunity. The government does have other obligations, you know. Like defense, infrastructure, and the other traditional roles of government in free societies.
 
nevermind why bother with this crowd, I remember now why I don't bother mixing humor and commentary together with conservs.
 
I dont see what the big deal is about socialized medicine from a doctors point of view. Sure salaries will decrease but they will never go below Canada's and doctors over there can still make 300K.

They are already low enough with reimbursements continuing to drop

They also dont have malpractice problems like us, and dont work as much as us. I doubt the quality of care will decrease, longer wait times is the only consequence i can realistically see happening. And that will eventually be balanced out in 10-15 years or so due to the fact that medical schools are opening more slots.

Wait times will not improve after 10-15 years and quality of care will drop. We already have a physician shortage. Implementing socialized medicine will cause many elderly and even young doctors to retire or to stop practicing medicine in favor of another field. The baby boomers are just getting to the age where their health is beginning to decline year after year, which will greatly increase patient load. Our population is increasing in size at a very rapid rate through immigration and birth rate and doesn't show any signs of slowing down. Medical schools will in no way produce enough new physicians to compensate for the increasing # of new patients that will come into the system each year due to disease or in search of a new doctor. This will greatly affect the quality of care in the US.


I also don't think medicine will become socialized in the US anytime soon, if ever. People have been talking about it since Cushing's time and it still hasn't happened.
 
nevermind why bother with this crowd, I remember now why I don't bother mixing humor and commentary together with conservs.

This is why I don't bother befriending self-righteous liberals. They think they are better and smarter than everyone else.
 
nevermind why bother with this crowd, I remember now why I don't bother mixing humor and commentary together with conservs.
If you're referencing your Godwin's Law comment, it wasn't funny anyways.
 
It is well known that health care expenditure has increased staggeringly over the last 10 years. A year without a double digit increase is a good one. Yet revenue flowing to providers is utterly choked. Where is all that money going?



Medicare reimbursement could certainly stand some improvement, it's not entirely correct that private insurance pays higher rates. Most private insurers peg their reimbursement schedules to Medicare's in some way, and many pay better while some pay worse. Dealing with private insurers incurs other unfortunate costs, such as hiring an armada of people to deal with the labyrinth of billing. I recall in medical school that every department had at least one full time person whose entire job was to fight with the private insurers, on a daily basis, to reimburse for what the physicians wanted to order. Pretty F-ed, eh?

I couldn't tell you where the money is going. The research I have done is on the hospital side of things, not the government side. My only point was that providers are getting screwed by medicare and I've seen more than one facility pay for the cost deficits in treating medicare patients with money from privately insured patients.

I'm certainly not trying to make the private insurance companies out to be the good guys, although rereading my post I can see where it sounded that way. I think the current atmosphere of non-payment is ridiculous. I also think that it's absurd that we allow insurance companies to avoid paying hospitals for as long as possible. If there was a feasible way to make them disappear without a single payer systme I would be all for it. My point was just that expanding medicare is not a solution.
 
They are already low enough with reimbursements continuing to drop



Wait times will not improve after 10-15 years and quality of care will drop. We already have a physician shortage. Implementing socialized medicine will cause many elderly and even young doctors to retire or to stop practicing medicine in favor of another field. The baby boomers are just getting to the age where their health is beginning to decline year after year, which will greatly increase patient load. Our population is increasing in size at a very rapid rate through immigration and birth rate and doesn't show any signs of slowing down. Medical schools will in no way produce enough new physicians to compensate for the increasing # of new patients that will come into the system each year due to disease or in search of a new doctor. This will greatly affect the quality of care in the US.


I also don't think medicine will become socialized in the US anytime soon, if ever. People have been talking about it since Cushing's time and it still hasn't happened.


Ok generally doctors, patients, politicians all agree that the healthcare system needs to change. Healthcare is expensive and it is something that no one wants to pay for out of their own pocket. It should be made mandatory for peoples own good. If i had a choice not to pay for my car insurance i wouldnt. I and many other americans would assume im not going to get into an accident and save myself the money. Well that is the case with health insurance right now, people assume that nothing major is going to happen so why pay the extra money. People will keep assuming that until its too late. Thats why the government needs to step in. Universal healthcare is not going to force young doctors to switch fields or keep new doctors from coming in. This hasnt happened in any other country, medicine is still one of the most competitive and highest paid fields in Canada and Europe. US physician salaries will never go below these countries because US physicians have greater education debt. If it were ever to go below that of Canadian physician salaries than many US physicians will immigrate to Canada, which would make our shortage even more severe. The government is not stupid; they will not let this happen. And as for quality of care is concerned, I think the best solution is to have private and public medicine. If you can pay for private care than youll recieve the best quality. If not than you will have to wait and be provided with mediocre quality. I know this seems unfair but like I said earlier healthcare is expensive and someone has to pay for it, it cannot just be provided.
 
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