Does 3rd/4th yr med school count as work experience?

[oli84]

I read some of the stuff on md-mba.org, and they mentioned that 3rd yr med school could count as a year of work experience, being on the wards. Just wanted to know, what are people's thoughts on this? Is this accurate?

If 3rd year counts, where could I possibly get the other year of experience?

Have more follow-up questions, but thanks in advance.

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[mward04]

I read some of the stuff on md-mba.org, and they mentioned that 3rd yr med school could count as a year of work experience, being on the wards. Just wanted to know, what are people's thoughts on this? Is this accurate?

If 3rd year counts, where could I possibly get the other year of experience?

Have more follow-up questions, but thanks in advance.

it really depends upon the b-school you are applying to. From my perspective, having been through it all, no it should not count. But some b-schools want to say their students have a ton of experience. Ultimately, you should get out there and work. At the very least you can do an internship during one of your summers and you should definitely work while in b-school.

 

[oli84]

Thanks for the response.

So would it turn out to be something like this?
4 yrs med school
2 yrs working "out there"
2 yrs business school

How important is getting that internship year? As much as I think the experience would help me, my priority is getting into business school right away after finishing medical school. Any advice would be appreciated!

 

[mward04]

My track has been 5 years med/business, 1 1/2 working with projects during med school/residency.

What yr are you and are you set on not doing a residency? The reason I ask is because you are going to go down a path that is extremely difficult to come back from. A physician without a residency is an MBA with an MD and that's it. Yes, you'll get hired but you won't know anything about how to care for a patient.

I think the intern year is extremely valuable b/c:
1. You can become licensed and take step 3
2. You understand (better) how the clinical environment (dys)functions
3. You gain clinical experience

Mike

Thanks for the response.

So would it turn out to be something like this?
4 yrs med school
2 yrs working "out there"
2 yrs business school

How important is getting that internship year? As much as I think the experience would help me, my priority is getting into business school right away after finishing medical school. Any advice would be appreciated!

 

[oli84]

I'm currently a MS2 with no work experience, and my school does not offer business classes. I am set on not doing a full residency. Internship is possible, but after that I would have to work 2 yrs + 2 yrs b-school, which would take far too long.

This is why it's something I have to think long and hard about, although I could potentially turn 4th year into a year of work experience. What do you think?

Oliver

My track has been 5 years med/business, 1 1/2 working with projects during med school/residency.

What yr are you and are you set on not doing a residency? The reason I ask is because you are going to go down a path that is extremely difficult to come back from. A physician without a residency is an MBA with an MD and that's it. Yes, you'll get hired but you won't know anything about how to care for a patient.

I think the intern year is extremely valuable b/c:
1. You can become licensed and take step 3
2. You understand (better) how the clinical environment (dys)functions
3. You gain clinical experience

Mike

 

[mward04]

I think the most valuable thing you could do is to work. When you are doing 3rd year, focus on that but MS4 year is nice and you may be able to line up a project and get some good mentoring. This would help you tremendously with b-school apps (especially when applying to a good b-school). One thing to keep in mind is that if you don't plan on doing residency etc. and you plan on relying more on your MBA, think carefully about what b-school you go to. The reputation of the MBA is far more valuable when you are an MBA, MD as opposed to an MD, MBA.

I'm currently a MS2 with no work experience, and my school does not offer business classes. I am set on not doing a full residency. Internship is possible, but after that I would have to work 2 yrs + 2 yrs b-school, which would take far too long.

This is why it's something I have to think long and hard about, although I could potentially turn 4th year into a year of work experience. What do you think?

Oliver

 

[Chauffeur2MD]

I read some of the stuff on md-mba.org, and they mentioned that 3rd yr med school could count as a year of work experience, being on the wards. Just wanted to know, what are people's thoughts on this? Is this accurate?

If 3rd year counts, where could I possibly get the other year of experience?

Have more follow-up questions, but thanks in advance.

OP, I think that work experience should really be a non-issue for you. Most B-schools reserve a few places in their classes for students with no work experience, despite what they may say on applications, websites, etc. This I know having worked at one, with several b-school profs. You, as an MD (even without residency) would fall into that category - special students who would add another dimension to the class.

You should look for schools that help special programs for scientists. Some schools (i.e. Johnson School at Cornell) have special 1-year accelerated MBA programs for people with science graduate degrees. Wharton may have the same thing? B-schools are recognizing the importance of the border between business and medicine and these new special programs are top on their lists of things to expand/promote.

Best of luck!

 

[HamOnWholeWheat]

Just to throw this out there, a friend of mine tried to sell her graduate school years as "work experience" to a business school, as those graduate years involved outreach projects in the community. Her interviews invariably went like this:

Interviewer: "So I see you went to grad school from 2001-2003.."

Friend: "yup.. blah blah"

Interviewer: "You also state you have two years of work experience in civil planning.. when was that?"

Friend: "2001-2003"

Interviewer: "..."

Friend: "I also have two years of experience in management."

Interviewer: "When was that?"

Friend: "2001-2003"

Interviewer: "...."


After 3 of these interviews she started amending her applications to reflect the right amount of true work experience and the interviews dried up. Basically, if you're getting school credit for it, its not work in most hiring managers' eyes. It looks worse than stating no work experience at all, because it looks like you're padding/double-dipping.

HamOn

 

[Chauffeur2MD]

Just to throw this out there, a friend of mine tried to sell her graduate school years as "work experience" to a business school, as those graduate years involved outreach projects in the community. Her interviews invariably went like this:

Interviewer: "So I see you went to grad school from 2001-2003.."

Friend: "yup.. blah blah"

Interviewer: "You also state you have two years of work experience in civil planning.. when was that?"

Friend: "2001-2003"

Interviewer: "..."

Friend: "I also have two years of experience in management."

Interviewer: "When was that?"

Friend: "2001-2003"

Interviewer: "...."


After 3 of these interviews she started amending her applications to reflect the right amount of true work experience and the interviews dried up. Basically, if you're getting school credit for it, its not work in most hiring managers' eyes. It looks worse than stating no work experience at all, because it looks like you're padding/double-dipping.

HamOn

HamOn,

Was the grad program in civil planning?

If I read right and she tried to pass of that kind of program as work experience, I can see why it seemed a little disingenuous.

The OP should not try to pretend like s/he has different experience than is true, but rather accentuate the value of the medical knowledge for a business application and what an interesting perspective would be added to the class.

 

[HamOnWholeWheat]

HamOn,

Was the grad program in civil planning?

If I read right and she tried to pass of that kind of program as work experience, I can see why it seemed a little disingenuous.

The OP should not try to pretend like s/he has different experience than is true, but rather accentuate the value of the medical knowledge for a business application and what an interesting perspective would be added to the class.

Yup, civil planning, but as you pointed out, the concept equally applies to calling 3rd or 4th year rotations 'work experience'. If its part of your curriculum, its not 'work'. That's what I thought the OP was asking about.

Unfortunately, without true 'work' experience, the bigger MBA programs may not give you a second look regardless of how impressive your medical knowledge is. There's just too many applicants with medical school experience AND real work experience. And that's just the bare minimum. The bigger schools also seem to want significant working leadership experience, i.e. running or managing a company, or being a project/development lead.

Just my .02$, so don't let that keep you from going for it if you want it bad enough.

 

[Chauffeur2MD]

Yup, civil planning, but as you pointed out, the concept equally applies to calling 3rd or 4th year rotations 'work experience'. If its part of your curriculum, its not 'work'. That's what I thought the OP was asking about.

Unfortunately, without true 'work' experience, the bigger MBA programs may not give you a second look regardless of how impressive your medical knowledge is. There's just too many applicants with medical school experience AND real work experience. And that's just the bare minimum. The bigger schools also seem to want significant working leadership experience, i.e. running or managing a company, or being a project/development lead.

Just my .02$, so don't let that keep you from going for it if you want it bad enough.

HamOn,

I definitely see your point. With only a few spots for those "special applicants" and many candidates, the chances are not great, especially for top programs.

I think there are a couple of things to do to help improve the odds a little:

1) Get some leadership/business-related experience, for sure, even while a med student (start a business/investment/entrepreneurship club, etc.). I think many MDs apply to b-schools just because they are burned out and and pessimistic about their career path, but without really thinking it through/preparing themselves, and demonstrating interest.

2) Get to know some profs at the b-school at your university. Volunteer to help them w/their research. Most people don't even remember that research goes on at b-schools. With a b-school prof's rec, your chances will go up at that school and others.

3) Demonstrate that you are a great people-person with management/leadership potential. Obviously one of the assumptions about scientists (yes, this goes for MDs too) is that they are not very socially adept. Help to break this stereotype!

Of course, nothing can help like actual work experience, but short of that, there is still hope if one takes some of these steps.

Cheers!

 

[cloudyroom]

my plan is to start my anesthesia residency and then concurrently go to B school @ columbia or nyu during my 2nd and 3rd years. I know NYU-Stern has a part time MBA program which one can finish quite quickly. and you get your full MBA so to me that seems like the best option..

 

[Chauffeur2MD]

my plan is to start my anesthesia residency and then concurrently go to B school @ columbia or nyu during my 2nd and 3rd years. I know NYU-Stern has a part time MBA program which one can finish quite quickly. and you get your full MBA so to me that seems like the best option..

Hey Cloudyroom,

I like your plan, but I hope that you have a really understanding/flexible residency director. It is going to be a little hellish trying to do both. The thing with MBA programs, especially part-time ones, is that many of the classes are small and interactive enough that your presence will be missed if you skip class. Although I did not finish an MBA, I have taken many MBA classes, and this is a fact I learned quickly.

There is also a fair amount of group project-type work to be done outside of class. All in all, it is not hard, but can be a pain in the butt trying to get a group to meet for a project, etc.

Time is against you, my friend. But good luck! It may be possible - it helps that it's anesthesiology! Buy stock in NoDoz before you start.

 

[oli84]

Hello Chaffeur, thanks for letting me know about programs like the one at Cornell. I'd be interested in looking at those.

Alternatively, I'd also like to look into career paths straight out of med school. I've heard suggestions such as financial analysts into pharmaceutical companies and working for insurance companies. Does anyone have any information regarding a path such as this?

 

[Xardas]

I read some of the stuff on md-mba.org, and they mentioned that 3rd yr med school could count as a year of work experience, being on the wards. Just wanted to know, what are people's thoughts on this? Is this accurate?

If 3rd year counts, where could I possibly get the other year of experience?

Have more follow-up questions, but thanks in advance.

Sorry 3rd year med school, and 4th for that matter do not count as "work experience" in my opinion. Getting business and work experience in the physician field really requires being an attending.

As an attending you really begin to understand the ins/outs of billing and reimbursement, practice development, marketing, work efficiency, management skills of those working for you (i.e. residents, PA-s, office staff) etc.


As a resident or med student for that matter your job is often see patient, staff patient, read about it at home.

I wish residents and students get more experience to the business side.

But too often I think residents and students think of work as something that you want to turf off; "I already did 5 consults today, so... all the rest should go to this guy for the day".

That's not to say you couldn't do it. But the stakes are different as an attending and you look at work differently and approach it differently. For that reason I think if you were to get an MBA later on say 2-4 years as an attending you learn so much more about what it is like to be in business that the degree would be more effective for you.

having said that; getting in early on learning what it is like to build a practice, how you get reimbursed, how certain sacrifices can pay off, being aggressive with marketing as a resident can only help you as an attending.

Unfortunately medicine is a field which in my opinion holds on to certain traditions and many people graduate with MD's with no clue how to be successful with their money, not just in a practice but with investing etc.